1. Russell Blackford - 50 Voices of Disbelief

Comment #430203 by Russell Blackford on November 7, 2009 at 9:15 pm

@ prolibertas I think what DJ meant by that was "should not be allowed to hide from public criticism". I don't think he meant "should be allowed to exercise political power/influence".

2. Intelligence Squared debate: Catholics humiliated by Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry

Comment #430202 by AllanW on November 7, 2009 at 9:12 pm

Many thanks to Sally for pointing out where us Brits could watch this programme. I've just watched it and it was indeed quite moving. The unedited programme will be more impressive but what we just had demonstrated well enough for all to see was the simple moral vacuity at the heart of the Catholic structure.

Congratulations to both Fry and Hitchens for their impassioned yet pertinent critiques and I'm really pleased to have watched the squirming petulance of Widdicombe and the palpably unprepared Archbishop against such a tidalwave of compassion from those against the motion.

I dearly hope that the moral corruption that is the Catholic church is dismantled stone by stone leaving only the genuine and personal good works by some of its adherents to reflect glory upon the nicest bits of the dogma. Maybe in future Catholic congregations can proudly point to their undoubted good effects upon the world without them being swamped by the foulness of other parts of the beliefs, practices and nostrums.

I had hoped that Catholics would take some sort of sanity-check from the result of this debate but it seems that cognitive dissonance is alive and well in Catholic believers (whodda thunk it?) as this correspondent shows;

http://ncronline.org/blogs/all-things-catholic/benedicts-ongoing-battle-against-secularism

His basic point is contained in the last couple of paragraphs;

Let me offer one practical implication. To the extent we define secularism as our main problem, Catholicism inevitably ends up looking defensive, forever building walls around a tradition we believe to be under assault. When the term of comparison is no longer secularism, however, but rather some forms of Pentecostalism or Islam, or quasi-magical currents in indigenous belief, that change of context positions Catholicism differently, as an alternative to religious movements that at times veer toward fundamentalism, extremism, or thaumaturgy.

Let me summarise that for you;

Well, if you compare us with rational moral codes we look crap of course but compared to some of the other religious fruitcakes we're not so bad!

Words fail me ..

edit; and to think that Catholics criticise secularists for moral relativism!

3. Give us your misogynists and bigots

Comment #430201 by SaintStephen on November 7, 2009 at 9:04 pm

210. Comment #430190 by antonbrk on November 7, 2009 at 8:16 pm

Comment ranked as Excellent. Welcome.

4. Russell Blackford - 50 Voices of Disbelief

Comment #430200 by prolibertas on November 7, 2009 at 9:02 pm

'Should no longer be allowed to remain private'?? I thought the whole point was KEEP religion private, and out of the public sphere. If religion was always private, there'd be no problem.

5. Intelligence Squared debate: Catholics humiliated by Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry

Comment #430199 by SaintStephen on November 7, 2009 at 8:58 pm

The Catholic Hindenburg is burning...

Oh, the humanity.

6. Intelligence Squared debate: Catholics humiliated by Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry

Comment #430198 by Sally Luxmoore on November 7, 2009 at 8:57 pm

Fantastic. Job done.

That archbishop was absolutely hopeless - completely unprepared.

7. Stand up, stand up, against Jesus

Comment #430197 by WilliamSatire on November 7, 2009 at 8:52 pm

Glacian @ 23: "people will simply become too smart to be religious anymore"

I'm not convinced. Regression to the mean and all that - the chances are that two above average intelligent parent's kids will be more towards normal intelligence. Even more depressing, despite being a tautology, even if you have average intelligence, half the world is more stupid than you.

Is there any evidence that smarts are being naturally selected?!

8. Intelligence Squared debate: Catholics humiliated by Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry

Comment #430196 by Mark Jones on November 7, 2009 at 8:49 pm

First part's been put up...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvZz_pxZ2lw

9. Intelligence Squared debate: Catholics humiliated by Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry

Comment #430195 by Corylus on November 7, 2009 at 8:44 pm

Comment #430191 by SaintStephen:

Where's the popcorn this is GREAT!

*Searched in cupboard*... Aha!

10. Intelligence Squared debate: Catholics humiliated by Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry

Comment #430194 by Diacanu on November 7, 2009 at 8:40 pm

So...is this up somewhere like Youtube yet?

11. Intelligence Squared debate: Catholics humiliated by Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry

Comment #430193 by Sally Luxmoore on November 7, 2009 at 8:39 pm

Impassioned is the only word for Stephen Fry - I have never seen him speak so well. - And that's saying something.

12. Russell Blackford - 50 Voices of Disbelief

Comment #430192 by NewEnglandBob on November 7, 2009 at 8:35 pm

I just received my copy of the book today (November 7) and this discussion makes me even more enthusiastic to read it.

13. Intelligence Squared debate: Catholics humiliated by Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry

Comment #430191 by SaintStephen on November 7, 2009 at 8:25 pm

Hitchens destroys! That was sweet.

Where's the popcorn this is GREAT!

14. Give us your misogynists and bigots

Comment #430190 by antonbrk on November 7, 2009 at 8:16 pm

I've never posted here before but the heat over this is interesting. Twatsworth's knuckleheaded comments do not seem enough on their own (de)merits to warrant this exceptional level of outrage--even if it on behalf of so peerless an intellectual and public moral hero (for those who cherish liberty, equality, and reason) as Richard Dawkins. I can't help thinking Twatsworth's misguided point accidentally does strike a liberal moral nerve, an "elephant in the room" more plausible than the idiotic notion that RD somehow lacks moral courage toward Islam. The outraged response here to that churlish suggestion hints, I hink, at some ever-present background moral discomfort over the gravity of that issue, i.e, the moral delicateness forced on famous, public critics of religion by the real mortal dangers in badmouthing Islam. If Islam is unique among World religions in potential for mortal offense, that fact *has* to entail unique moral challenges to liberal critics, i.e, when and how to say what and how much, compared to other target groups equally within one's sights. That was the implicit elephant in the room, not some preposterous character flaw in Richard Dawkins. The utter necessity of balancing mortal threat concerns in public discourse about Islam has got to be perpetually morally uncomfortable, on some simple level, to all public defenders of reason. Pls note I am absolutely *not* suggesting RD "plays it safe" on Islam compared to other religions. I am saying *everyone* on some level probably does this out of necessity, and the reality of having to do so has to be morally difficult on some important level for liberal minded persons, and maybe especially so for unusually courageous public defenders of reason, like RD. Just a speculation about why Twatsworth's otherwise unremarkable but stupendously wrong attribution of RD's character has resulted in so much animus here. God, I cherish this site, btw.

15. Intelligence Squared debate: Catholics humiliated by Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry

Comment #430189 by Sally Luxmoore on November 7, 2009 at 8:09 pm

Now!

16. Intelligence Squared debate: Catholics humiliated by Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry

Comment #430188 by SaintStephen on November 7, 2009 at 8:06 pm

8 2 minutes and counting... !

17. Intelligence Squared debate: Catholics humiliated by Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry

Comment #430187 by Sally Luxmoore on November 7, 2009 at 8:00 pm

Comment #430185 by LaurieB

Hi Laurie!

I'm on tenterhooks to see this debate.
10 mins to go...
Link once again, for those who haven't seen it. (Allow active X)
http://www.peepat.com/tv/bbc_world_news_1.aspx

18. Intelligence Squared debate: Catholics humiliated by Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry

Comment #430186 by Sally Luxmoore on November 7, 2009 at 7:58 pm

Comment #430184 by Magdalena
- ranked as offensive.

1. Humans ARE animals.
2. I will not bother to reply to you again.
3. Bugger off.

19. Intelligence Squared debate: Catholics humiliated by Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry

Comment #430185 by LaurieB on November 7, 2009 at 7:57 pm

Sally Luxmoore,

Pay no attention to that sexually stunted Magdalena person.

Just wait till you see the debate! I saw it here in Boston (US) at 10:00 this morning. It was so inspiring! What passion from CH and SF. I'll be watching it again at 8:00 tonite too.

20. Intelligence Squared debate: Catholics humiliated by Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry

Comment #430184 by Magdalena on November 7, 2009 at 7:51 pm

Comparing animal behaviours with humans is wrong, I will not accept that animal behaviour can at all be studied and directly applied to human behaviour. You can't keep a straight face and say 'some monkeys have engaged in homosexual behaviour' because some monkeys have also flung their poo around yet we'd send poo throwing humans into a mental asylum. We are more evolved up in our heads than animals, trying to put ourselves at their level is just stupid.

As to what science has to say: http://www.narth.com/docs/animalmyth.html

Homosexuals will try to grab anything and twist around to justify themselves. But please, lets looka at the facts. Thank you.

21. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430183 by Francis Clarke on November 7, 2009 at 7:23 pm

What a nice way to honour this man. Shame I can't attend myself.

22. Russell Blackford - 50 Voices of Disbelief

Comment #430182 by effymeral on November 7, 2009 at 7:14 pm

Mr Blue Sky:"Great idea but how do we get the required numbers to be interested enough to go out and buy it let alone read it? "

yeah, really difficult getting religious people to take seriously what they think would make them question what they're already so comfortable with. perhaps books that use the positive approach would help to build interest for the "anti" books?

23. Intelligence Squared debate: Catholics humiliated by Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry

Comment #430181 by Sally Luxmoore on November 7, 2009 at 7:06 pm

Comment #430176 by Magdalena

Comment ranked as offensive.

scientists proved that this is not "nature's way

Really? Evidence, please.
It is my understanding that 'scientists have proved' that homosexual pairings are common in other species, frequently as an aid to rearing the young.
Please bear in mind that on this site, it is your opinions that are viewed as "disgusting and sick".
If you have no evidence - and I am sure you do not, then kindly refrain from posting further, or, even better, just bugger off.

24. Intelligence Squared debate: Catholics humiliated by Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry

Comment #430179 by Magdalena on November 7, 2009 at 7:01 pm

I guess truth hurts.

25. Atheist group takes message to Lakeland via billboard

Comment #430177 by TIKI AL on November 7, 2009 at 6:49 pm

I still think the blue sky is too "churchy".

I'm leaning towards a chocolate statue of Brad Pitt.

26. Intelligence Squared debate: Catholics humiliated by Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry

Comment #430176 by Magdalena on November 7, 2009 at 6:48 pm

Hmm Fry and Hitchens seem to agree that the Catholic church's hierarchy is so "unnatural" in this era; the priests' celibacy, the nuns, monks, etc. Well I just have 1 question: what is so natural in a gay guy putting his penis in another guy's ass? is that natural? is that how "nature" evolves? i don't think so. It's rather "natural" to refrain from something like sex than to do it in some disgusting and sick and unnatural way(and yes, scientists proved that this is not "nature's way). O yah, and did Hitchens and Fry call that "love"? sick

27. Intelligence Squared debate: Catholics humiliated by Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry

Comment #430175 by SaintStephen on November 7, 2009 at 6:28 pm

Sally... will your link work in the Land of the Free, dya think?

EDIT: (I forgot to let the Active-X controls load... now it appears to be working great.)

You go girl! Thanks a bazillion.

28. Intelligence Squared debate: Catholics humiliated by Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry

Comment #430174 by Sally Luxmoore on November 7, 2009 at 6:01 pm

Thanks to an Efriend, I have been 'vouchsafed' this link:
http://www.peepat.com/tv/bbc_world_news_1.aspx
It is a live feed, so you need to be on time to watch. The next broadcast is at 8.10pm today, then Sunday 8th at 0110, 0710, 1510 and 2010 GMT.

There must be someone here who can copy and upload to RD.net or YouTube, so we can all watch whenever and as often as we'd like.

29. Chief Rabbi Lord Sacks: Europe is dying from secularism

Comment #430173 by j.mills on November 7, 2009 at 5:55 pm

A asks (#59):

Anyone know the right word for that ? The word for slipping knowledge claims past scrutiny ?

A good candidate is Unspeak, the title of a book on the topic by Steven Poole:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Unspeak-Words-Weapons-Steven-Poole/dp/0349119244

Heartily recommended - I spent the whole time pointing at the page and going: "Yes! Yes! Exactly!"

Stella said (#65):

I also find it hilariously pathetic that the rabbi wants to "rediscover" Europe's Judeo-Christian roots.

You see this ecumenical term 'judeo-christian' a lot; an unholy alliance that 'toleranly' (ie. cherry-pickingly) conceals a world of difference. Presumably the christians think it adds authority to their side, while jews must value the additional numbers. It quietly steps past the fact that judaism is a tiny religion, with fewer adherents worldwide than sikhism.

As Chief Rabbi in the UK, Sacks speaks for (at most) half of one percent of the population; but as a self-appointed spokesman for 'judeo-christianity' he piggy-backs on millions of theists who plainly do not share even his religious beliefs, let alone his bonkers opinions about population.

30. Stand up, stand up, against Jesus

Comment #430172 by TIKI AL on November 7, 2009 at 5:51 pm

Glacian @ 23: "people will simply become too smart to be religious anymore"

I really, really would like to believe that, but the problem is that my Catholic and Mormon neighbors are the only ones in the hood that are popping out multiple rugrats and I lose "faith".

31. Russell Blackford - 50 Voices of Disbelief

Comment #430171 by TIKI AL on November 7, 2009 at 5:39 pm

Mr Blue Sky @ 1: "how do we get the required numbers to be interested enough to go out and buy it"

... petition the help of a Nigerian Prince to send E-mails thru out the world?

32. Intelligence Squared debate: Catholics humiliated by Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry

Comment #430170 by SaintStephen on November 7, 2009 at 5:35 pm

Yes, somebody please!

33. 'Why Evolution Is True'

Comment #430169 by SaintStephen on November 7, 2009 at 5:28 pm

Their dog ate it...

Damn those theists are real dogs.

34. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430168 by TIKI AL on November 7, 2009 at 5:27 pm

SS @ 58: "I am also mystified why every single human being on this planet isn't filled with rapture"

Due to the bad but not quite end times alot of them are. That's why Walmart is having a sale on ascension robes.

35. Stand up, stand up, against Jesus

Comment #430167 by SaintStephen on November 7, 2009 at 5:01 pm

19. Comment #430132 by mmurray on November 7, 2009 at 6:29 am

Ah yessss... plenty of nice artwork:



Went looking for Archaeopteryx and found a foot squid instead... Does PZ Myers run a tattoo parlor on the side?

(Neat trick with "the Google" btw!)

36. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430166 by SaintStephen on November 7, 2009 at 4:37 pm

"I know that the molecules in my body are traceable to phenomena in the Cosmos. That makes me want to grab people in the street and say "Have you heard this?!?"

My favorite part of the video was the great snippet of Neil deGrasse Tyson. I've been feeling this exact same emotion for well over a year now, every single day of the week, ever since reading The Blind Watchmaker. I attempt to steer the topic of conversation to evolution and cosmology with just about every person I meet, on the street or otherwise. The reactions vary, but I'm not sure I can ever stop doing it. Like Tyson, I am just blown away by the reality of what I am and where I came from. I am also mystified why every single human being on this planet isn't filled with rapture like Tyson, about the incredible facts of our existence.

37. Faith No More

Comment #430165 by newmac on November 7, 2009 at 4:31 pm

Well I for one have faith there are Pink Elephants on the far side of the moon. Thousands of them. Of course you can't see them; but I; as an esteemed man of faith; have faith that they are there. In fact; I have been an esteemed man of faith for over 25 years.I have gray hair. And a suit. So I know whereof I speak.

38. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430164 by Border Collie on November 7, 2009 at 4:24 pm

Yep, man needs eternity because if we believed there was no eternity we'd be forced to awaken and live life in this world and at this time and if we did that then we'd see how short and precious this life actually is and what an exquisite place this Earth is and then we'd not put up with any shit from sky pilots, politicians or anyone else and, in fact, there probably would not be any sky pilots or politicians because there'd be no need for them and we wouldn't fritter our lives away on imaginary bullshit for an imaginary reservation in an imaginary place in an imaginary future and that would be that.

39. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430163 by SaintStephen on November 7, 2009 at 4:10 pm

20. Comment #430056 by Sarmatae1 on November 6, 2009 at 7:41 pm

I missed this wonderful, musical video you posted last night. I was using a computer at the library and didn't have headphones with me. A bit lucky, though, because otherwise I might have started crying in public.

That was simply beautiful. Thank you so much for posting it! I've watched it three or four times now. My congrats to the artist who made it, if they are here somewhere.

40. Since the dawn of time

Comment #430162 by Border Collie on November 7, 2009 at 3:54 pm

PGFM ... My sentiments exactly.

I can hear them now, in a very whiny, nasal tone ... "But we deserve respect and if you don't give it to us we'll whine more and more and call our congressmen and tell them in even more intensely whiny voices that scientific funding should be cut off ... Then we'll take our ball and go home because you don't play fair."

41. Russell Blackford - 50 Voices of Disbelief

Comment #430161 by Mr Blue Sky on November 7, 2009 at 3:32 pm

Great idea but how do we get the required numbers to be interested enough to go out and buy it let alone read it?

42. Stand up, stand up, against Jesus

Comment #430160 by WilliamSatire on November 7, 2009 at 2:46 pm

BRIAN: Brothers! Brothers! We should be struggling together!
FRANCIS: We are!.. Oh...
BRIAN: We mustn't fight each other! Surely we should be united against the common enemy!
EVERYONE: The Athiest's People's Front?!
BRIAN: No, no! The Religious!
EVERYONE: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

(sorry, I'll stop now...)

43. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430159 by Sheol99 on November 7, 2009 at 2:42 pm

I watched the video, when was it made? Saint Sagan said it all about religion. Almost nothing new.

whew..

44. Intelligence Squared debate: Catholics humiliated by Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry

Comment #430158 by Sally Luxmoore on November 7, 2009 at 2:20 pm

http://www.bbcworldnews.com/Pages/Programme.aspx?id=244

Please, people outside the UK, report back on this.
We Brits are at the moment the only people in the world who can't see this!
Someone upload it, please....

45. Atheist group takes message to Lakeland via billboard

Comment #430157 by rjj_98 on November 7, 2009 at 1:48 pm

I am living in a small city in Thailand. Tonight I saw the LDS set up at a place where many Thai's go in the evening to walk and get exercise. All I see these churches do here is try to recruit people, they do no good. Whereas many expats, without any religious affiliation will take it upon themselves to go out and do good works (donate books, computers, teaching English, etc, etc). Seems our side needs a bit more advertising, to stop the madness from spreading everywhere. Buddhism is fairly innocuous, unlike the LDS :(

46. Letting Science Inform Morality

Comment #430156 by Sue G on November 7, 2009 at 1:44 pm

Haha, I like the pot-shots at O'Reilly too. I wonder what Richard would have to say if he were interviewed by Glenn Beck.

47. Prayer Cult Nation: Faith Healing Scams & Healthcare Reform

Comment #430155 by noahidios on November 7, 2009 at 1:39 pm

It would be rude to conclude that this way the deluded will die out quickly.

Yes, that would be rude.

??

you don't say... i suppose that if this ridiculous piece of legislation does pass that would be a small consolation. so long as you have to be over the legal age to receive treatment.

48. Stand up, stand up, against Jesus

Comment #430154 by Glacian on November 7, 2009 at 1:20 pm

My only concern is there reluctance to say that religion can be eradicated - I don't think this is an unrealistic goal, just one that's unrealistic to expect to come to fruition any time soon. I'm confident that if and when we engage in the sorts of transhumanistic practices that will modify us beyond recognition, through genetic engineering, cognitive enhancement drugs, cybernetics, etc. that people will simply become too smart to be religious anymore. Here's to hoping we don't destroy civilization before then.

49. 'The Evolution of Confusion'

Comment #430153 by EoghainOKeeffe on November 7, 2009 at 1:06 pm

This is a fantastic video. I felt my mind expanding as I listened to Dennett!

I am fascinated by the idea that theologians search for answers which appear profound and final without encouraging curiosity. That is a pretty amazing skill!

50. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430152 by Sheol99 on November 7, 2009 at 12:58 pm

Saganseve? Merry or Happy?

Contact was one novel that opened my mind, a fiction can be so emotional, yet within the constraints of science. I loved Sagan's idea of possible life in other worlds, esp life in Jupiter. Giant hydrogen gas filled creatures the size of small cities grazing loose hydrogen gas in the atmosphere, followed by plane sized 'predators' that make a living of ripping the grazers for their gas. Dead material falls to the heat below and incinerated. Communication by radiowave ... Wow!

Sure beats xenu with their outdated DC-10s ...

51. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430151 by Stonyground on November 7, 2009 at 12:58 pm

TIKI AL@86 OK I concede your point but my overall point still stands, Science can kick YHWH's arse.

52. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430150 by andy1968 on November 7, 2009 at 12:19 pm

I posted this on the pale blue dot link also. 'We are star stuff' is one of my favourite Sagan videos. I watch this video often as it traces our evolution from simple molecules to humans

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE9dEAx5Sgw

Thanks Andy.

53. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430149 by bluebird on November 7, 2009 at 12:03 pm

Wish we could attend the Sagan shindig - sounds great!!

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2009/11/happy-carl-sagan-day.php

54. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430148 by Nunbeliever on November 7, 2009 at 11:36 am

Carl Sagan! They don't make 'em like that anymore :-(

55. Atheist group takes message to Lakeland via billboard

Comment #430147 by phil rimmer on November 7, 2009 at 11:17 am

Big T

The remark about black churches was made by a black man, in fact. You may wish to amend your comment.

I think Jos Gibbons' points still stand, however.

56. Atheist group takes message to Lakeland via billboard

Comment #430146 by The Truth, the light on November 7, 2009 at 11:17 am

How is "Don't believe in God?" a provocative question?

It's like asking, "Don't like eating brussel sprouts? You're not alone".

57. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430145 by Paula Kirby on November 7, 2009 at 10:47 am

Nunbeliever: Singer refused to answer whether he thinks it's morally right to cause a dog severe suffering for biting an infant.

As I read the exchange, it wasn't a question of whether it's morally right to cause a dog severe suffering FOR biting an infant. It was whether it would be morally right to cause a dog severe suffering to PREVENT it biting an infant, if it could be shown that the suffering caused to the dog would be greater than the suffering caused to the infant if it were bitten.

In other words, is it morally acceptable to cause a lot of suffering to a non-human animal in order to avoid a smaller amount of suffering to a human one?

I thought Peter Singer did answer it, actually: I thought his answer was no.

58. Stand up, stand up, against Jesus

Comment #430144 by PERSON on November 7, 2009 at 10:05 am

1. Comment #429987 by WilliamSatire on November 6, 2009 at 3:14 pm
Ah, but as the old saying goes:
Me against my brother
Me and my brother against my neighbour
Me, my brother and my neighbour against the world

That's why the churches are slowly melting together. It'll take a while, but I'd be very surprised if the trend in the number of denominations has not been downwards for a long time.

The greatest cause of faction is lack of apparent threat.

59. Beware Of Demonic Candy!!!

Comment #430143 by alexhouse on November 7, 2009 at 9:51 am

I just looked at the website that somebody posted earlier http://www.demonbuster.com. I'm stuck in Poe's Law.

Somebody tell me is this real or a parody?

60. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430142 by PERSON on November 7, 2009 at 9:48 am

"But the percentage was hypothetical. A tool to show the idea. Singer refused to answer whether he thinks it's morally right to cause a dog severe suffering for biting an infant."
What does "severe" mean? Excessive? Then logically, no. Should we cause it pain to prevent it repeating the act? Well, if it would work, perhaps. Sadly it couldn't be guaranteed to, and the option taken usually when an animal attacks a child is to kill it. It is seen as unfair to cause suffering to animals because they cannot distinguish right and wrong, and thus do not deserve suffering. That is generally accepted. Interestingly, the converse-- that humans can and thus do-- is not (I think). Perhaps the first needs re-examining?

I think that there are some people who think that criminals should be rehabilitated, and only punished insofar as that assists the process. They should not be made to suffer per se.

Taking it further is the view that they should not suffer at all, and that suffering is the sole cause of their criminal behaviour. But perhaps no-one believes that any more? Perhaps they never did, and it was just a straw man authoritarian revenge-peddlers like to attack?

"Or whether we are morally allowed to kill one person to save 100 gorillas? He just REFUSED to answer this question which I think was of great importance. And that made me frustrated."
I think the answer to the second question is that the summation is not linear. A million toenails don't equate to a person, so 100 gorillas don't. Further, the best reason for not killing gorillas is not their inherent worth as individuals, IMO (though it shouldn't be entirely dismissed either).

61. Intelligence Squared debate: Catholics humiliated by Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry

Comment #430141 by retep57 on November 7, 2009 at 9:18 am

Full credit to CH and SF. Well done!

Finally got to see this, would have like to have heard more from Christopher and Stephen, they did such a good job, i thought i had heard all this stuff before but CH and SF not only argue intelligently but come across as genuinely meaning what they say. With the widely read, informed clever, witty Ch and SF you would think they could probably win either side of most debated, somehow this debate is just to important to flippantly argue a case just for debating points. The only debater who might have sounded a bit like disagreeing just to say the opposite to another side as a knee jerk reaction was the politician - which i guess is what we expect of them but it is annoying.

Hmm copies of this debate might make good christmas presents !

62. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430140 by PERSON on November 7, 2009 at 9:15 am

"14. Comment #429803 by galaieva on November 5, 2009 at 8:55 pm
the catholics are easy prey for us :) Let us not even notice them, their numbers are getting so small"
Yeah, I mean there's only a billion or so of them.

P.S. "Abortion isn't healthcare, because killing is not healing" So no radiotherapy or chemo for Catholics. Tumours have the potential to become human beings (with a little genetic manipulation and cloning techniques). No amputations either, since that would kill the limb.
And as for saving mothers that would be killed by completing pregnancy, the maths is simple:
fetus == God's (via limbo)
woman == not God's (or the slut wouldn't be considering abortion)
=>
fetus > woman
QED

Excuse me, but I have a fever today, and am hallucinating slightly. What I have just seen is a YouTube video of a chorus of foetuses in differing early phases of development singing in pinky and perky fashion "Praise ye the Lord (Hallelujah)" with the shot cutting between them, split screening, etc. The punchline was at the end, a black card with the text "Only animals were used in the making of this film".

63. Stand up, stand up, against Jesus

Comment #430139 by A on November 7, 2009 at 8:40 am

The question: Is there an atheist schism?

Yes. On the issue of whether there is a god, the atheist community is split right down the middle, those who defiantly believe there to be no god (or think the idea unreasonable) and those who actively believe in the revealed truth of Jesus O'Christ.

I thankfully find myself in the latter group of atheists - and it is us who are being schismed, we need to bring our two warring sides together and face the real threat, theological non-cognitivism.

What do you mean 'schismed' is not a real word ?

Etc etc . . . . ad confusia.

(Ok, I am making up Latin now, I best go).

64. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430138 by andersemil on November 7, 2009 at 8:34 am

50. Comment #430130 by FuerstOpus

I agree with you that the best strategy is unknown. But I also agree with Sam Harris and Prof Dawkins that the dedicated religious mind is a dangerous entity because it allows for insane acts to be justified by ancient and highly immoral doctrine. Thus there is a natural tendency for atheists to become frustrated and scared at the fact that religious delusion persists today _even though_ science has progressed so far and proven so much-- at least back then they didn't know any better. As Dr Andy Thompson and V.S. Ramachandra have pointed out in several talks, there seems to be a capacity in the human brain to believe in something which directly contradicts and overrides what other parts of the same brain will rationally deduct. If we knew this mechanism and why it exists better, we would probably be more accomodating.

The short story is, people will always fight for their ideas. But we need to stress that science is always subject to its own criticism-- that is, there are no believes to be held, only evidence-based facts which will last until a new experiment contradicts the theory. This is the biggest and most important difference between us and the religious.

65. 'Why Evolution Is True'

Comment #430137 by Thylacoleo on November 7, 2009 at 8:32 am

@ Comment #429387 by Mark Lowley

I managed to convince my high school library to buy The God Delusion as part of its next intake :D
I thought it was a great victory until, after I returned it, one my friends borrowed it... Their dog ate it...

66. Atheist group takes message to Lakeland via billboard

Comment #430136 by Big T on November 7, 2009 at 7:20 am

Jos Gibbons: Martin Luther King Jr. once said something to the effect that the most segregated time in America was Sunday morning. And, you are correct, sir, to feel that the remark about "black churches" smacks of racism. I guarantee you the person who said that thinks that black people are too dumb to rationally evaluate a billboard about atheism.

67. Creationism, Minus a Young Earth, Emerges in the Islamic World

Comment #430135 by kev_s on November 7, 2009 at 7:17 am

@ ramfalls My guess is that a thousand was just what desert nomads thought was an extremely large number in their experience. They knew it was a long time relative to human life and came up with a thousand to represent 'a long time'. Also, remember that the religious have to sell their ideas to the potentially incredulous so making it a much longer time might have made their account seem ludicrous. 4.6 billion years is inconceivable to most people even today.

68. The new crybaby theists

Comment #430134 by RightWingAtheist on November 7, 2009 at 7:09 am

Hitchens says we won't ever forget (we hope) what it was like when these people had all of the power. Government-sanctioned hatred, murder, superstition, and abuse.

Now when they lose that power, they have nothing left but to protest that atheists are rude.

He also notes that Islam is currently playing both parts. In many countries large enough to be dangerous, Islam controls everything from petroleum to the brains of its citizens, enforced with murder. In North America and Western Europe, it "poses as a cringing minority" which is offended and in need of protection.

69. Stand up, stand up, against Jesus

Comment #430133 by mmurray on November 7, 2009 at 6:32 am

The real question is "why do you believe people you have never met who lived 2000 years ago and weren't even witnesses to the actual events?"

Or better even "why do you believe anything in the bible". Point them at Bart Ehrman or this Dan Dennett talk

http://richarddawkins.net/article,4547,The-Evolution-of-Confusion,Dan...

Michael

70. Stand up, stand up, against Jesus

Comment #430132 by mmurray on November 7, 2009 at 6:29 am

@SaintStephen

http://tinyurl.com/yc2jukw

Google is your friend, well at least when they aren't sucking up to totalitarian governments and watching everything you do.

Michael

71. Atheist group takes message to Lakeland via billboard

Comment #430131 by Et in Arcadia ego on November 7, 2009 at 6:27 am

"Black churches , places where black people worship white people". Somebody should make THAT billboard.

72. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430130 by FuerstOpus on November 7, 2009 at 5:53 am

So I've been reading all this stuff on the "new atheists" and the "atheist schism", and have been trying to decide whether this is even a real issue and how I feel about it, when...

I'm driven by the above video to order The Demon-Haunted World from Amazon (never read it). I click on the button to "Surprise Me" with an excerpt and end up on page 300. (hey! It works with the Bible, doesn't it? Why shouldn't I get guidance on Carl Sagan Day by randomly reading excerpts from this book) Thus wrote Dr. Sagan...

And yet, the chief deficiency I see in the skeptical movement is in its polarization: Us vs. Them - the sense that we have a monopoly on the truth; that those other people who believe in all these stupid doctrines are morons; that if you're sensible, you'll listen to us; and if not, you're beyond redemption. This is unconstructive. It does not get the message across. It condemns the skeptics to permanent minority status; whereas, a compassionate approach that from the beginning acknowledges the human roots of pseudoscience and superstition might be much more widely accepted.

If I didn't know that my brain was evolved to find patterns even when none exist, I might think that this coincidence meant something. As it is I still don't know how I feel about the best strategy for fighting ignorance, but wanted to share.

73. Chief Rabbi Lord Sacks: Europe is dying from secularism

Comment #430129 by g-21-lto on November 7, 2009 at 5:46 am

We need religion in order to convince women to become broodmares?

OK, I'm sold. [/sarcasm]

74. Amazon.com Confuses the Ray Comfort Version of 'Origin of Species' and the real one!

Comment #430128 by Parapraxis on November 7, 2009 at 5:44 am

Terrible.
Amazon.ca ONLY has the Ray Comfort version.
This is very sad.

Oh and just to let you guys know (many I'm sure already do)
The bastardized creationist versions are published under "Bridge-Logos Publishers/Foundation".
Here is there mission statement:
“Our desire at the Bridge-Logos Foundation is first to glorify God through the production and distribution of Christian books and Bibles. To use the profits from these books and Bibles to assist where possible those reaching the lost and impoverished either through books or funds.”

...

75. Atheist group takes message to Lakeland via billboard

Comment #430127 by Bolland on November 7, 2009 at 3:49 am

I would prefer:

"Don't believe in God, devils, witches, angels, etc. Don't worry, you're not alone".

They are all part of the same package and joining them up reinforces the message.

76. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430126 by HourglassMemory on November 7, 2009 at 3:37 am

From time to time I catch something by Sagan on Youtube or in bookstores and such.
It's like he's not even dead to me.
Of course he is, unfortunately, but to me he's everywhere, he still manifests.

77. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430125 by mikkala on November 7, 2009 at 3:28 am

Carl was the man who's words, at long last, rang true and reverberated all the way to the core of this person who was otherwise satisfied to accept conventional wisdom.

I remember the deep seeded emotions that were unleashed on the day when I happened upon Carl's Cosmos series in it's entirety, just before it was removed from Google video. I spent the next 3 or 4 afternoons going from "The Shores of the Cosmic Ocean" All the way through to "Who Speaks for Earth" I don't think I even blinked, except maybe to wipe the tears from my face.

My best vacation to date, involved A; Richard's Ancestor's Tale, and, Demon Haunted World. I had my nose buried in that book pretty much every time I was at rest. It was surreal to listen to Carl in my head, whilst overlooking magnificent northern vistas in Finland's Midnight Sun.

Demon Haunted World is, without hesitation, the first book of mine that I offer to lend to the people I care about. If that one's already on loan, Cosmos fills in nicely.

I guess what I'm really getting at, is that Carl Sagan is no less than my hero. And this seems an appropriate forum to share it with you all.

R.I.P Carl Sagan.

78. Stand up, stand up, against Jesus

Comment #430124 by KRKBAB on November 7, 2009 at 3:00 am

14. Comment #430078 by Stonyground - That's a real good point. In fact, I think most younger people in the developed world would eventually shrink to the postition of deism if you talked to them long enough and really asked the tough questions. It's feels good to think this way- who knows if it's really happening. I think in perhaps two more generations we'll have a clearer picture as to whether this is true or not.

79. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430123 by Dorothy Sutton on November 7, 2009 at 2:59 am

"Beautiful, my copy of cosmos arrived just today."

Beautiful. My copy of the cosmos arrives every day - when I open my eyes each morning.

p.s. I was "Commonhumanity" before (the one who writes poems). I've decided to use my real name.
Where can I find instructions for an avatar?

80. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430122 by Bonzai on November 7, 2009 at 2:50 am

theinquisitor

The only person who can forgive you is the person you wronged, not some authority. Vicarious redemption is an immoral concept.

This seems to be a rip off from Hitchens. :)

But Christian belief is actually even more twisted than vicarious redemption.

From djohn's account he actually hasn't wronged anyone, but he is weeping and degrading himself because he has a tendency to do something nasty. No one can forgive him because a potential victim for would be wrong doings is not a victim at all. In Christian theology though, even when there is no victim a would be sin is an actual sin committed against God for which we need his forgiveness.

So lusting after your neighbour's wife without actually doing anything about it is still a sin against God even though there is no actual victim to seek forgiveness from, same goes with other things like consensual gay sex. By turning many victimless activities or even pure thought into 'sins' Christianity manages to built an industry based on guilt.

If there is anyone who need forgiveness it is the religious hucksters who have guilt tripped him and others like him into believing that they are worthless sinners in need of a savior. These religious pimps should seek forgiveness from all the unhappy people whom they have hoodwinked and developed a guilt complex as a result.

81. 'Why Evolution Is True'

Comment #430121 by prolibertas on November 7, 2009 at 2:26 am

We should be getting that correlation-between-God-belief-and-societal-dysfunction graph on the buses. They can argue against the other slogans we've put up, but they can't argue with the stats.

82. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430120 by theinquisitor on November 7, 2009 at 2:21 am

"I need a savior as I am a sinner"

In other words, you want to avoid moral responsibility by scapegoating and human sacrifice. If you did something wrong, then accept it and face the consequences. The only person who can forgive you is the person you wronged, not some authority. Vicarious redemption is an immoral concept.

83. The new crybaby theists

Comment #430119 by Hirnlego on November 7, 2009 at 2:19 am

"So where to earthquakes and tsunamis fit into this ?"
And what about diseases?
And imagine if a politician had the same power as god yet choose to do nothing to prevent (MASSIVE amounts of) suffering? Wouldn't people be outraged? But gods are for some reason excused.

84. The Upside of Feeling Down

Comment #430118 by Gamma ut on November 7, 2009 at 2:12 am

Im definitely not an expert on this sort of thing, but I'll give it a shot.

I have heard recently that people tend to see the world through "rose-colored glasses" when they are reasonably content -- or they tend to have a more optimistic opinion or evaluation of themselves and their behavior. But sadness causes a person to have a more realistic opinion. I don't know if this would be the same for clinical depression. The paper I am taking the info from is about sadness only (specifically to music's relation to sadness) but it seems that if it is true, there would be some evolutionary benefit to having a temporary reality check from time to time. Again, I am definitely not an expert.

85. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430117 by Bonzai on November 7, 2009 at 1:40 am

43. Comment #430115 by clunkclickeverytrip

djohn - why did you choose Christianity? Why don't you try another more uplifting religion for a while to see if your self esteem improves.

Cos he's a masochist? :) Medieval monks got a sexual high by whipping themselves senseless, I was told (Maybe Cartomancer can verify that) Being a Christian is probably cheaper than hiring a dominatrix. :)

So there is no escape from lust for poor djohn. Even his very faith may turn out to be an expression of lust! There is no escape from guilt and sin, he must be pleased with this realization. On that Freudian train of thought perhaps the crufix is an expression of latent necrophilia.

86. Chief Rabbi Lord Sacks: Europe is dying from secularism

Comment #430116 by Bonzai on November 7, 2009 at 1:19 am

secularism had made people too selfish to have children.

Actually having many children is a form of social insurance in pre modern agrarian societies, where manpower is capital.

There is an old Chinese saying that goes 'having children is a way to prepare for old age'. So having kids is a kind of economical investment.

What would be the motivation if not 'selfishness'?

This way of thinking was later codified into religious dogmas and perpetuated beyond its practical usefulness even in places where having many children is no longer an economical benefit. As is always the case, a shift in thinking always lags somewhat behind changes in actual material conditions.

As a corollary to this observation, for those who rightly argue that over population is an issue needs to be addressed,--at least in some parts of the world, --you cannot change behaviours by simply preaching to the people. While in some cases having many children is the result of archaic ideas codified in cultural expectations (religion being only one aspect of it), in other cases having many children still has a real economical significance. The material conditions that motivate people to have more children must be understood and addressed. This means we have to invest in improving the social safety net, infrastructures and creating viable developmental options for the developing world. Just telling people that the Bible is nonsense and they should have less kids is not going to work if having kids fulfills a material need and it is not being addressed otherwise.

Edited I am only talking about 'selfishness' in the literal, direct economical sense here. Some people have said that having children is 'selfish' in the genetic sense, but that is only a metaphor and the agents of 'selfishness' in the metaphor are the
genes themselves, not the parents who choose to have children, so it is not really addressing the point made by the Rabbi.

87. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430115 by clunkclickeverytrip on November 7, 2009 at 1:18 am

djohn - why did you choose Christianity? Why don't you try another more uplifting religion for a while to see if your self esteem improves. If it doesn't, then maybe, since you have read and enjoyed books about evolutionary biology, you will be ready to try atheism. Every atheist on this website is a damn sight happier with themselves as people than you by the sounds of it, although we are a rather stoic bunch as a rule.

88. Atheist group takes message to Lakeland via billboard

Comment #430114 by Crazycharlie on November 7, 2009 at 1:13 am

I wish I had seen a billboard like this when I was about 12. It would have lightened my heart to know other people were out there like me. Let's hope millions of others will be encouraged by these billboards.

None of us would be seeing these billboards or the ads on subways if it wasn't for Richard, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, Dan, PZ, etc. They are the intellectual muscle behind the open questioning and criticism of religion we've been hearing for the last few years.

89. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430113 by SaintStephen on November 7, 2009 at 1:10 am

39. Comment #430105 by Bonzai on November 7, 2009 at 12:18 am

a healthy sexual appetite is good if you express it in socially acceptable ways...

Does cowgirl in the cramped driver's seat of a Toyota Celica, at 2:00 PM in the public parking lot of Margaritaville in Capitola, with the steering wheel and gearshifter as handholds -- qualify as "healthy"?

A friend of mine once did that...

90. Prayer Cult Nation: Faith Healing Scams & Healthcare Reform

Comment #430112 by Border Collie on November 7, 2009 at 1:02 am

Rod, somebody must've prayed for those lizards that grew their tails back after losing such to predators or evil pre-pubescent boys. Hey, if it works for lizards ... And, it works because lizards have been around for zillions of years, much more time for prayer (by somebody) to work. No, wait, the world is only six thousand years old. Must be something else at work here. Nevermind.

91. Chief Rabbi Lord Sacks: Europe is dying from secularism

Comment #430111 by Border Collie on November 7, 2009 at 12:49 am

Well, everything's cleared up for me. How 'bout ya'll?

92. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430110 by kaiserkriss on November 7, 2009 at 12:37 am

Christian: I read your link and find the whole thing rather mind boggling. I hope Justice will prevail and the free get out of jail card of religion will be withdrawn forthwith. This would set a very useful precedent in case law that defamation laws also apply to the church and ignorance is not an excuse. jcw

93. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430109 by William Carlton on November 7, 2009 at 12:34 am

How serendipitous. I watched this video earlier today before it was posted here, just for the hell of it.

94. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430108 by Steven Mading on November 7, 2009 at 12:33 am

Carl Sagan was, in the 1970's, sort of like the American version of the chair Richard Dawkins retired from - he took on the job of trying to communicate to the masses what is so interesting about science .

95. Sermon for All Saints' Day, Cologne Cathedral, 1st November 2009

Comment #430107 by kaiserkriss on November 7, 2009 at 12:25 am

Paula, Christian and all others fluent in German, I urge you to drop off a message of condemnation with Meisner as I did at his official web page..http://www.erzbistum-koeln.de/erzbistum/erzbischof/jcm_mailformular

I have yet to receive a reply from the old guy or one of his cronies.

By the way, Paula your translation was excellent, better than I could have ever done, despite me being fluent in both languages Also, the bit about Dr. Schmidt-Salomon suing Bishop Muller is too hilarious... Made my day THANKS! jcw

96. Stand up, stand up, against Jesus

Comment #430106 by Crazycharlie on November 7, 2009 at 12:21 am

Atheists don't have schisms. Only dogmatic infallible religions have schisms.

97. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430105 by Bonzai on November 7, 2009 at 12:18 am

djohn

I did name some of my sins. Idolatry, greed, lust, selfishness, etc.

So, what is the big deal? We all have such propensities to differing degree, the point is how you control and channel these impulses. For example, lust is bad if you decide to go out to rape someone, but a healthy sexual appetite is good if you express it in socially acceptable ways(edited I have no frigging clue what 'idolatry' even means or why it is a 'sin'. Maybe you're into worshiping rock stars or something, it is stupid, but not a sin.)

You sound like a victim of religious guilt tripping. You should see a counselor, and I don't mean one from the Jesus camp.

You remind me of a Christian I once knew. Albert would pull a long face all day and with him the topic would always turn to how horrible and worthless a human being he was,--and by extension we all are,-- and that only Jesus could redeem him etc etc. I felt uneasy simply by being in his vicinity, he gave off a very unpleasant 'vibe' (metaphorically speaking for the language police out there). Always mournful and sad and on his kneels praying for forgiveness, it must suck to be him. I hope you are not like that, yet.

P.S. If you internalize the guilt as a result of childhood exposure to Christianity,--I can't say for sure that it is the case,--then it would be a perfect example of religious indoctrination as child abuse. There is no other description for drumming into the head of a child that he is a sinful and worthless being.

98. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430104 by HappyPrimate on November 7, 2009 at 12:06 am

Sounds like our new poster djohn really needs to get himself a copy of Sagan's Demon Haunted World. After digesting that, he can move on to RDs books and lastly top it off with Hitchens' god is not Great. Then he can come back let us know how it went. I have Sagan's Cosmos DVDs and they are awesome.

99. Since the dawn of time

Comment #430103 by Bonzai on November 6, 2009 at 11:50 pm

Forrest argues that new atheists should respect the personal nature of faith, and nurture a sense of humility by recognising that scientific evidence does not rule out existence of the divine. They should accept that there is a wide range of views, she says, and stop insisting that everyone follow the "one true way" of atheism. Failing to do so only turns people off in droves

This is rich. It is like the flasher complaining that his privacy is being violated when being told that his sexual fetish is, shall we say, rather questionable.

If the believers truly keep their faith 'personal' then we won't be discussing it, would we?

If Priests, Rabbi and Imams are not out there trying to tell us every fucking day that they have some unique expertise in morality and that the society should be structured based on their superstitions I am sure many 'new atheists' would prefer to spend their times on more interesting things than knocking religion. Personal madness may not deserve respect, but I won't give a shit as long as you keep it to yourself.

(As Border Collie said above not all beliefs deserve respect even if it is personal. But my main point is that while believers have a problem of keeping their idiocies to themselves they turn around and demand 'respect' for their 'personal' faith when it suits them.)

100. Happy Saganseve, Everybody

Comment #430102 by TIKI AL on November 6, 2009 at 11:49 pm

Was Carl a 6.999 to infinity on the Richard scale?

"Sagan, however, denied that he was an atheist: "An atheist has to know a lot more than I know."[33] In reply to a question in 1996 about his religious beliefs, Sagan answered, "I'm agnostic."[34] Sagan maintained that the idea of a creator of the universe was difficult to prove or disprove and that the only conceivable scientific discovery that could challenge it would be an infinitely old universe.[35]" (wiki)

djohn: Could you please help me with a survey I am doing?
1. Do you share the same religion as your parents and grandparents?
2. On a scale of 1.(leaving your hat on in church) to 10.(having 11 bodies found in your house), how do you rate yourself as a sinner?