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Monday, June 4, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document The Myth of Secular Moral Chaos

by Sam Harris

Thanks to Ken Bromberg for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=sharris_26_3

One cannot criticize religious dogmatism for long without encountering the following claim, advanced as though it were a self-evident fact of nature: there is no secular basis for morality. Raping and killing children can only really be wrong, the thinking goes, if there is a God who says it is. Otherwise, right and wrong would be mere matters of social construction, and any society would be at liberty to decide that raping and killing children is actually a wholesome form of family fun. In the absence of God, John Wayne Gacy could be a better person than Albert Schweitzer, if only more people agreed with him.

It is simply amazing how widespread this fear of secular moral chaos is, given how many misconceptions about morality and human nature are required to set it whirling in a person's brain. There is undoubtedly much to be said against the spurious linkage between faith and morality, but the following three points should suffice.

1. If a book like the Bible were the only reliable blueprint for human decency that we had, it would be impossible (both practically and logically) to criticize it in moral terms. But it is extraordinarily easy to criticize the morality one finds in the Bible, as most of it is simply odious and incompatible with a civil society.

The notion that the Bible is a perfect guide to morality is really quite amazing, given the contents of the book. Human sacrifice, genocide, slaveholding, and misogyny are consistently celebrated. Of course, God's counsel to parents is refreshingly straightforward: whenever children get out of line, we should beat them with a rod (Proverbs 13:24, 20:30, and 23:13–14). If they are shameless enough to talk back to us, we should kill them (Exodus 21:15, Leviticus 20:9, Deuteronomy 21:18–21, Mark 7:9–13, and Matthew 15:4–7). We must also stone people to death for heresy, adultery, homosexuality, working on the Sabbath, worshiping graven images, practicing sorcery, and a wide variety of other imaginary crimes.

Most Christians imagine that Jesus did away with all this barbarism and delivered a doctrine of pure love and toleration. He didn't. (See Matthew 5:18–19, Luke 16:17, 2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 20–21, John 7:19.) Anyone who believes that Jesus only taught the Golden Rule and love of one's neighbor should go back and read the New Testament. And he or she should pay particular attention to the morality that will be on display if Jesus ever returns to earth trailing clouds of glory (e.g., 2 Thessalonians 1:7–9, 2:8; Hebrews 10:28–29; 2 Peter 3:7; and all of Revelation).

It is not an accident that St. Thomas Aquinas thought heretics should be killed and that St. Augustine thought they should be tortured. (Ask yourself, what are the chances that these good doctors of the Church hadn't read the New Testament closely enough to discover the error of their ways?) As a source of objective morality, the Bible is one of the worst books we have. It might be the very worst, in fact—if we didn't also happen to have the Qur'an.

It is important to point out that we decide what is good in the Good Book. We read the Golden Rule and judge it to be a brilliant distillation of many of our ethical impulses; we read that a woman found not to be a virgin on her wedding night should be stoned to death, and we (if we are civilized) decide that this is the most vile lunacy imaginable. Our own ethical intuitions are, therefore, primary. So the choice before us is simple: we can either have a twenty-first-century conversation about ethics—availing ourselves of all the arguments and scientific insights that have accumulated in the last two thousand years of human discourse—or we can confine ourselves to a first-century conversation as it is preserved in the Bible.


2. If religion were necessary for morality, there should be some evidence that atheists are less moral than believers.

People of faith regularly allege that atheism is responsible for some of the most appalling crimes of the twentieth century. Are atheists really less moral than believers? While it is true that the regimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot were irreligious to varying degrees, they were not especially rational. In fact, their public pronouncements were little more than litanies of delusion—delusions about race, economics, national identity, the march of history, or the moral dangers of intellectualism. In many respects, religion was directly culpable even here. Consider the Holocaust: the anti-Semitism that built the Nazi crematoria brick by brick was a direct inheritance from medieval Christianity. For centuries, Christian Europeans had viewed the Jews as the worst species of heretics and attributed every societal ill to their continued presence among the faithful.

While the hatred of Jews in Germany expressed itself in a predominantly secular way, its roots were undoubtedly religious—and the explicitly religious demonization of the Jews of Europe continued throughout the period. (The Vatican itself perpetuated the blood libel in its newspapers as late as 1914.) Auschwitz, the Gulag, and the killing fields are not examples of what happens when people become too critical of unjustified beliefs; on the contrary, these horrors testify to the dangers of not thinking critically enough about specific secular ideologies. Needless to say, a rational argument against religious faith is not an argument for the blind embrace of atheism as a dogma. The problem that the atheist exposes is none other than the problem of dogma itself—of which every religion has more than its fair share. I know of no society in recorded history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable.

According to the United Nations' Human Development Report (2005), the most atheistic societies—countries like Norway, Iceland, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Belgium, Japan, the Netherlands, Denmark, and the United Kingdom—are actually the healthiest, as indicated by measures of life expectancy, adult literacy, per-capita income, educational attainment, gender equality, homicide rate, and infant mortality. Conversely, the fifty nations now ranked lowest by the UN in terms of human development are unwaveringly religious. Of course, correlational data of this sort do not resolve questions of causality—belief in God may lead to societal dysfunction, societal dysfunction may foster a belief in God, each factor may enable the other, or both may spring from some deeper source of mischief. Leaving aside the issue of cause and effect, these facts prove that atheism is perfectly compatible with the basic aspirations of a civil society; they also prove, conclusively, that religious faith does nothing to ensure a society's health.

3. If religion really provided the only conceivable objective basis for morality, it should be impossible to posit a nontheistic objective basis for morality. But it is not impossible; it is rather easy.

Clearly, we can think of objective sources of moral order that do not require the existence of a law-giving God. In The End of Faith, I argued that questions of morality are really questions about happiness and suffering. If there are objectively better and worse ways to live so as to maximize happiness in this world, these would be objective moral truths worth knowing. Whether we will ever be in a position to discover these truths and agree about them cannot be known in advance (and this is the case for all questions of scientific fact). But if there are psychophysical laws that underwrite human well-being—and why wouldn't there be?—then these laws are potentially discoverable. Knowledge of these laws would provide an enduring basis for an objective morality. In the meantime, everything about human experience suggests that love is better than hate for the purposes of living happily in this world. This is an objective claim about the human mind, the dynamics of social relations, and the moral order of our world. While we do not have anything like a final, scientific approach to maximizing human happiness, it seems safe to say that raping and killing children will not be one of its primary constituents.

One of the greatest challenges facing civilization in the twenty-first century is for human beings to learn to speak about their deepest personal concerns—about ethics, spiritual experience, and the inevitability of human suffering—in ways that are not flagrantly irrational. Nothing stands in the way of this project more than the respect we accord religious faith. Incompatible religious doctrines have balkanized our world into separate moral communities, and these divisions have become a continuous source of human conflict. The idea that there is a necessary link between religious faith and morality is one of the principal myths keeping religion in good standing among otherwise reasonable men and women. And yet, it is a myth that is easily dispelled.


Sam Harris is the author of The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason.

Comments 1 - 45 of 45 |

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1. Comment #47409 by Benjamin Michael on June 4, 2007 at 12:21 pm

 avatarNothing new here, but as always it is masterfully written, straight to the point and right on the money.

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2. Comment #47413 by konquererz on June 4, 2007 at 12:41 pm

 avatarI just finished reading "Letter to a Christian Nation" and this is almost word for word out of that book. I must say though, I love reading it again, it still gets me pumped up!

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3. Comment #47420 by BicycleRepairMan on June 4, 2007 at 1:12 pm

 avatarNothing new here

Well, atleast not for those who have read "The End Of Faith", anyways.. But it cant hurt to put these things into a shorter, more accessible context, if nothing else as a teaser for this Must-read book. TEOF is a shockingly brilliant book, it really nails it in just about every sentence

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4. Comment #47425 by Benjamin Michael on June 4, 2007 at 1:25 pm

 avatarYou know, I haven't read it yet, strangely enough. I must find the time to do so. LCN I read in the bookstore, and was going to put it back on the shelf but felt guilty about it so I bought it anyway. That way I can lend it others who may get great benefit out of reading it.

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5. Comment #47469 by sane1 on June 4, 2007 at 3:57 pm

 avatarThis addresses probably the most important misconceptiona about atheists, and the one that is most responsible for the low regard in which atheists and atheism are held. The more it is read the better!

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6. Comment #47470 by MIND_REBEL on June 4, 2007 at 3:58 pm

 avatarIMO, Religion in all forms is immoral, and by extention, so are it's adherants because it's been used to justify so many horrible things over the course of history. Humans have an innate moral code which can only be altered by memetic brainwashing in the form of religion.

And Sam is 100% correct. Secular countries like Sweden and Finland where 80% of the population are hardcore atheists have the highest standard of living while places like Kenya and South Africa which are 80% Catholic are having huge problems because the Vatican is running thier country. If they could make a switch to a Science based worldview they could quickly transform thier country to someplace like Sweden.

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7. Comment #47508 by mithraman on June 4, 2007 at 7:17 pm

A very clear and well constructed article. However, since I read the Sam Harris "In defense of Torture" article, I haven't been a big fan. I've always had this crazy idea that torture is just plain wrong. I would even go so far to say that if you are looking for moral guidance, try to get if from someone who isn't pro-torture. I suppose I could be convinced otherwise, with the use of cattle prods and boiling oil perhaps.

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8. Comment #47512 by admin on June 4, 2007 at 7:36 pm

 avatarMithraman, have you read this?

http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/response-to-controversy2/

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9. Comment #47527 by Zaphod on June 4, 2007 at 9:32 pm

 avatarHe is right. It is easily dispelled. The problem is so many easily believe it.

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10. Comment #47528 by nothing on June 4, 2007 at 9:32 pm

 avatarThank you admin for posting the link to Sam Harris' response to the controversies arising from his book.

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11. Comment #47533 by Robert Maynard on June 4, 2007 at 10:02 pm

 avatarOn one hand, it's a non-event to read passages lifted in their entirety from books I've already read by Sam Harris, and a part of me wishes he'd say something new and cool.

On the other hand, these passages are concentrated searing blasts of good argument, which aren't less effective by repetition, and which he is essentially circulating for free by including them in articles like this, so that they might reach people who haven't read his books (on.. secularhumanism.org? ..well, the audience there might be a little skewed).


On the torture issue, in The End of Faith he explains himself quite well, drawing a moral equivalence between torture and our apparent nonchalance at the prospect of causing collateral damage by waging war. "I believe I have successfully argued for the use of torture in any circumstance in which we would be willing to cause collateral damage. Paradoxically, this equivalence has not made the practice of torture seem any more acceptable to me; nor has it, I trust, for most readers".

A friend of mine summed it up pretty well. "The argument seems more anti-collateral damage than it is pro-torture."

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12. Comment #47556 by krogercomplete on June 5, 2007 at 12:28 am

"The argument seems more anti-collateral damage than it is pro-torture."


That is exactly the impression I was left with after reading The End of Faith. Sam gets a bad rap.

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13. Comment #47667 by Peacebeuponme on June 5, 2007 at 8:25 am

3. Comment #47420 by BicycleRepairMan on June 4, 2007 at 1:12 pm

Nothing new here

Well, atleast not for those who have read "The End Of Faith", anyways.. But it cant hurt to put these things into a shorter, more accessible context, if nothing else as a teaser for this Must-read book. TEOF is a shockingly brilliant book, it really nails it in just about every sentence
I agree. However, the religio response to this is that while reilgion may not have always practised the best morals that down to man's interpretation of god's will. Morals are innate precisely because god put them there, whether they are practised properly by religion or not. They can quite easily separate the abstract god from religious practice when they need to. The interesting question of how we acquired morals is reduced to god by them and scripture does not change that. They will therefore reject Sam's wonderfully worded argument.

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14. Comment #47715 by mintcheerios on June 5, 2007 at 10:53 am

Sam isn't addressing those people. He's addressing people who actually believe atheism will lead to moral chaos because it provides no moral basis.

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15. Comment #47789 by Oppomystic on June 5, 2007 at 2:25 pm

 avatarI'm surprised to hear that Canada is an atheistic society, being that our Charter of Rights and out national anthem have "God" written into them. As far as I know, the U.S. Bill of Rights and "Star-spangled Banner" (the portion that actually gets sung at events) do not. We do not, however, have any mention of God on our money - for we have to leave enough room for QE2's mug and our indigenous flora and fauna. God how I wish this was an atheistic country...

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16. Comment #47880 by PsyPro on June 5, 2007 at 11:07 pm

 avatarOn Sam Harris and torture:
Some have pointed to his response <http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/response-to-controversy2/> as if somehow that answered the concern, but it doesn't. Mr. Harris still argues that torture is justified sometimes, and, as usual misses the point of his critics. His justification scenario assumes that the to be tortured actually knows what the torturer wants to know: that we can KNOW that for a fact. But, how can we know that? That tortured people ``reveal'' all sorts of things under torture is not surprising, but the veracity of those revelations, as always, is highly questionable. Because you can *never* know that the to be tortured actually has the knowledge you seek, torture is never justified. Period. And Sam should just say so and back off from his indefensible position.

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17. Comment #47882 by krogercomplete on June 5, 2007 at 11:18 pm

Because you can *never* know that the to be tortured actually has the knowledge you seek, torture is never justified.


What would be your answer if we actually could know for a fact?

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18. Comment #47883 by PsyPro on June 5, 2007 at 11:40 pm

 avatarI was asked by krogercomplete:

``What would be your answer if we actually could know for a fact?''

My answer is not relevant (the issue was Sam Harris's), nor is the question: as we can never know, the issue never arises. And, I fail to see how torture would ever play a role in answering this prequestion. Sam's nuanced response in the quoted url amplified his equation of torture with collateral damage. What the hell is the connection? Give me the money, or the bunny is toast? Yes, all sorts of people accept collateral damage, the death penalty, and what all. So what? What has that to do with torture *as a means of gaining veridical information*? Nothing. Side-tracking nonsense is all that argument is. And Sam is much smarter than that. I am disappointed in his (lack of) reasoning here, and especially his use of a classical fallacy of argumentation highlighted in Aristotle's Sophistici Elenchi: Equivocation. There is no necessary relation between the public acceptance of collateral damage and torture, and there is certainly no relation between the two concepts themselves.

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19. Comment #47888 by krogercomplete on June 6, 2007 at 12:20 am

My answer is not relevant (the issue was Sam Harris's), nor is the question: as we can never know, the issue never arises.


I was just curious. If you don't want to answer the question, fine. You said that torture is never justified because we can never now for sure whether the person being tortured has the requisite information. I was not sure if that implied agreement with Sam's hypothetical or not (or that you simply thought his hypo was unrealistic, or both). If it does imply agreement, then is ABSOLUTE certainty responsible for the distinction? Is there any circumstancial case that could raise the probability high enough for you to accept torture?

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20. Comment #47894 by PsyPro on June 6, 2007 at 12:52 am

 avatarkrogercomplete writes about my response that the question asked was not even rhetorical:
``I was just curious. If you don't want to answer the question, fine. You said that torture is never justified because we can never now for sure whether the person being tortured has the requisite information. I was not sure if that implied agreement with Sam's hypothetical or not (or that you simply thought his hypo was unrealistic, or both). If it does imply agreement, then is ABSOLUTE certainty responsible for the distinction? Is there any circumstancial case that could raise the probability high enough for you to accept torture?''

No. There is no circumstance, because we can NEVER KNOW a priori that a) the to be tortured individual actually has the information sought, or b) that torture would necessarily reveal it in any case. So, as a means to veridical information (as if that were the only issue), torture is just a non-starter. I understand that some people start from the premise that the to be tortured individual actually has the information sought, but I fail to see a) any situation in which we could know a priori that the premise was true, and b) that torture would or could ensure either the truth of the premise or the subsequent revelations derived from torture.

But, there are the ethical issues as well, that heretofore, apparently to some, I have avoided; but, they are not in any way relevant to the question of whether or not information obtained via torture is reliable. It is not. Period. Given that answer, equivocations about other morally questionable activities and beliefs (e.g., Harris's collateral damage) play no role at all.

You and Harris may believe that some young, red-haired woman is a witch and thereby has much to reveal about the nefarious goings on in the neighbourhood. That belief under no circumstances, even if those circumstances included the collateral belief that thousands or billions or the entire human race was at risk, would justify torturing that young woman. Just because a) you do not know and cannot know for a fact that the belief is true, and, at any rate have b) no reason to believe anything obtained via torture.

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21. Comment #47915 by mmurray on June 6, 2007 at 3:16 am

 avatar

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22. Comment #47917 by mmurray on June 6, 2007 at 3:19 am

 avatar
Because you can *never* know that the to be tortured actually has the knowledge you seek, torture is never justified.

What if you have overheard a terrorist group who have planted a bomb with a timer and a code to stop the countdown. They have said they all know the code. You have one of the group in custody and located the bomb. All you need is for that person to give you the code.

While I don't trust a lot of hypothetical situations this one seems possible.

Michael

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23. Comment #47935 by phil rimmer on June 6, 2007 at 4:32 am

 avatarPsyPro

I have a complete repugnance to the idea of torture but...

Your arguments against the utility of torture are incomplete until you insert speculations about the probabilities of outcomes. Yes torture may yield untrustworthy evidence but it may be the least bad evidence about the location of the kidnapped child or the dirty bomb. My goodness, we could even be scientific about it!! Science deals with imprecise data. If we have several terrorist suspects, torture them all and compare notes after.

Sadly we can't dismiss torture as a non-starter just because it may yield unreliable information. The uncertainty merely adds another awful factor that needs to be weighed in the balance of computing the lesser of two evils.

The "witch" retort isn't really a pertinent argument. That torture may be used to try to solve a non-existent threat is of the same quality as using torture to solve an inadequately threatening threat. The contentious issue for most people is, is the balance of evils calculation overwhelming clear enough?

Arguments from the standpoint of its corrosive effects on society are another matter. This is my main concern. I suspect we may need our State Torturer to be punished (after he has saved us) so that we can distance ourselves from his distasteful work. Yuck!

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24. Comment #47955 by Sargeist on June 6, 2007 at 6:07 am

 avatarI've been having a lot of problems (as in: Thinking about it a lot until my head hurts and I don't know what I think) lately with questions of morality. I shall try hard not to ramble in this post by sticking to the torture issue.

The concept of "morality" seems to be really awkward because of the different implicit meanings people have for the words "right" and "wrong". I have recently had a conversation with a friend in which I said something like "Well, I do worry a lot about what ethics is all about. I mean, I am pretty much a moral relativist, even though there are things that I am adamant are right and things I am adamant are wrong. But we can't point at something and say 'That is objectively wrong because blah.'"

His response was that he was absolutely sure that torture is morally wrong. I agree with him (at present) but I don't see that it is self-evident. When I asked why he thinks torture is morally wrong his answer was, "Well, for one thing, I think it is absolutely useless as a means for getting information."

And this is the sort of thing I hear a lot when I want to know the "whys" of people's moral objections. I tend to always get what I would call "functional" answers. They are saying that "X is wrong because it doesn't help to achieve goal Y". Now, I am not well-versed in ethics, but to me this doesn't sound like ethics. It raises the obvious retort: "Well, ok, how about if it *was* a good way of getting information?"

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25. Comment #47958 by Sargeist on June 6, 2007 at 6:10 am

 avatarIn response to mmurray @22:

I like to consider those thought experiments, too. If it were a hypothetical in which we had a sound recording of the terrorists, then the best we could do is possibly to get a quick court case going, play the tape to the press, get a quick electronic vote on whether we should take a Black & Decker to their wrists, and see if "public opinion" allowed us to inflict pain to save lives.

I should add an addendum here: No, I'm not really joking. Sometimes I get the feeling that anyone who advocates violence as a means to an end is assumed to be deranged (maybe I am) or ironic.

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26. Comment #48010 by krogercomplete on June 6, 2007 at 9:08 am

PsyPro,

That was a brilliant non-answer.

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27. Comment #48013 by Steven Mading on June 6, 2007 at 9:15 am

17. Comment #47882 by krogercomplete on June 5, 2007 at 11:18 pm

Because you can *never* know that the to be tortured actually has the knowledge you seek, torture is never justified.

What would be your answer if we actually could know for a fact?

There is no such thing as a situation where we can be sure someone has the information we want, yet we do not yet know what that information actually is. The point is that the only way to be sure the torture would be justified to extract information (because we already know the person actually has the info) is to be in a situation where it is also unnecessary to do so (because we already know the info), so that removes the one case where one could justify torture. There are no cases left once that one is done away with.

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28. Comment #48020 by krogercomplete on June 6, 2007 at 10:05 am

There is no such thing as a situation where we can be sure someone has the information we want, yet we do not yet know what that information actually is.



Humor me.


*Edit: imagine an agent who has been working undercover with a terrorist cell for many months. The cell has acquired a nuclear device. The cell's engineer/bomb guy has repeatedly practiced arming and disarming the bomb in the agent's presence. The agent doesn't understand the details of the arming and disarming sequence, but can see that the engineer/bomb guy knows how to do it. The time comes for the strike, and the bomb is brought to its destination in a major city. The agent calls in the cavalry, but they get there too late and the engineer/bomb guy has already armed the sucker. The undercover agent knows for a fact that the bomb can be disarmed, doesn't understand how to do it himself, and there is no one else available to disarm it. Can they torture the engineer/bomb guy to compel him to disarm it.

This is wildly hypothetical, but I would like an answer.

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29. Comment #48271 by Sargeist on June 7, 2007 at 9:01 am

 avatarIt seems, kroger, that no one is going to answer you. (Maybe they're all at work?) So I'll weigh in and say: Yes, they can. But I'm pro-capital punishment, so maybe I'm just trying to be consistent.

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30. Comment #48482 by debaser71 on June 8, 2007 at 6:18 am

I really like Sam Harris but I have a gripe with a certain atheist argument. Sometimes atheists like to argue that religionist think they get their moral from the bible or that god set up laws to follow but IMO these arguments are flawed. The religious are saying (and yes I realize that they abuse language) that god gave humans the capacity for morality. That humans can be moral at all is a gift from god. One doesn't need to read the bible or fear god to be moral, just that god gave morality as a gift (in His image sort of thing) to all humanity. So secularists can be moral (according to the religious) without having read the bible and without fearing/loving god because god gave them the gift of morality anyway, that the secularist just doesn't attribute their morality to god.

Yes some do claim that they get their moral guide from the bible but when pressed they often retreat to the position I decribed above.

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31. Comment #48524 by gimlibengloin on June 8, 2007 at 9:13 am

A brave attempt by Mr Harris to avoid the inevitable amorality of atheism but of course he fails.

He starts by stating (quite correctly) "Raping and killing children can only really be wrong, the thinking goes, if there is a God who says it is."
This is, of course, true. However, its a truth that doesn't sit comfortably with his atheism so with his first two responses he moves the goalposts:

Firstly, he points to instances of scriptural exhortations which he finds repugnant. This of course fails because it doesn't address the more specific philosophical issue of whether God or an Absolute authority is required for morality. It also fails because he gives no objective basis for his rejection of scripture. (How could he???)

Secondly,he accuses the atheistic regimes of Pol Pot and Stalin etc of being 'irrational'. Maybe so, Mr Harris, but nevertheless they were atheistic. Mr Harris has really shot himself and atheism in the foot here.

Thirdly, he writes "Whether we will ever be in a position to discover these truths and agree about them cannot be known in advance (and this is the case for all questions of scientific fact). But if there are psychophysical laws that underwrite human well-being—and why wouldn't there be?"

Well if this is the best he has to offer atheism is in trouble: "cannot be known in advance"? "Why wouldn't there be"?
Clearly these arn't advances neither are they expositions of objective morality under atheism. Atheism is inherently amoral and as a biochemist and former Christian leader but now a militant atheist Billy Sands said a few months ago on this site:

"I don't believe in an absolute morality"

Regards, GBG

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32. Comment #48739 by ColourOutofSpace on June 8, 2007 at 11:06 pm

 avatar"Atheism is inherently amoral"

gimlibengloin: Please explain to me how not believing in any God or gods is inconsistent with being able to make moral value-judgements about human behavior.

As Harris has written, questions of morality are ultimately questions of happiness and suffering. We call an action "wrong" if it produces suffering without any overriding justification (such as the prevention of a greater amount of future suffering). We might make an individual endure prison, for example, but would be (hopefully) for the sake of the greater good of society - that is, for the sake of minimizing suffering among people in general. Conversely, we call an action "good" if it produces happiness and/or diminishes the amount of suffering in the world.

Naturally, judgements about what is "good" or "evil" can become awfully confused and subjective - seeing as how actions sometimes produce both suffering and happiness, or are the product of obscure intentions, or lead to unexpected results, etc. etc. But the point here is that I fail to see the necessary connection between the existence of an omniscient, omnipotent being/intelligence/whatever and the ability to call an action "good" or "evil".

"Good" and "evil" are concepts we use to express our emotions towards actions and individuals who have an impact on our well-being and the well-being of those we care for. That doesn't mean good and evil aren't real - it's just that they take their reality from human consciousness (and, it is quite possible, the consciousness of certain other species). I might take a leap here and guess (correct me if I'm wrong) that you believe that for morality to really exist, it must exist "out there" in the mind of God (or whatever). But why couldn't morality take its existence from what we think and feel, rather than from what the mind of an unproven and undisprovable entity thinks or feels ? Why would that be so illogical or impossible?

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33. Comment #48988 by matthuisman on June 9, 2007 at 10:38 pm

Given Harris' linkage of morality and happiness/suffering, do things become problematic when they cause suffering to one and happiness to another?

Is there no place for moral suffering in Harris' world, and if so, does this conflict with our understanding of the survival of the fittest?

What happens to me when I disagree with what science tells me is good? Why am I wrong? If I am wrong, will we have witnessed the end of moral relativism?

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34. Comment #48994 by Russell Blackford on June 10, 2007 at 12:13 am

People seem to mean all sorts of different things when they talk about an absolute morality. If it means a morality with exceptionless rules, for example, then I have no idea why we would want a morality like that. If it means an objective morality Out There somewhere, I have no reason to imagine that any such thing exists, or why it should be thought of as desirable.

Morality is a desirable thing to the extent that it reduces suffering, aids social cohesion and coordination, enables us to live better lives than if we tried to live as egoists, and conduces to other such outcomes that most of us favour (and have evolved to favour). But to achieve that, it's not something that must be absolute in any sense.

Morality is also open to revision if it is not actually achieving the outcomes that make it desirable in the first place. A lot of our inherited morality could do with rational revision.

This is where religionists are particularly dangerous. They make typically make a fetish of moral rules, instead of keeping in mind what morality is for. This can lead them to be irrational and even cruel, wanting to enforce a morality that is narrow, warped, and harmful.

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35. Comment #48999 by epeeist on June 10, 2007 at 12:49 am

 avatarComment #48739 by ColourOutofSpace

"Atheism is inherently amoral"

gimlibengloin: Please explain to me how not believing in any God or gods is inconsistent with being able to make moral value-judgements about human behavior.

Don't expect a straight answer. Fimbulfambi is one of a group of ardent creationists that would like to see this oasis dry up.

Comment #48994 by Russell Blackford

Morality is also open to revision if it is not actually achieving the outcomes that make it desirable in the first place. A lot of our inherited morality could do with rational revision.

This is where religionists are particularly dangerous. They make typically make a fetish of moral rules, instead of keeping in mind what morality is for. This can lead them to be irrational and even cruel, wanting to enforce a morality that is narrow, warped, and harmful.

Agreed on both counts. On the Dawkins/McGrath thread we have someone who started arguing philosophically dismissing all writers on ethics as failures. He has revealed himself as a theist (and follower of Plantinga) to whom seemingly no purely human endeavour is worth anything.

Piecewise gradual improvement after much struggle is the way we move forward as humans, recognising our fallibility.

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36. Comment #49080 by The Wee Flea on June 10, 2007 at 8:33 am

Interesting debate. Just a few comments on Sam's three points.

1. The Bible. This is a weak argument because it fails to understand both the Bible and the place of the Bible in the idea of morality. The Bible's teaching about morality is that humans beings are moral because they are created in the image of God. The Bible does not make them moral, nor is the Bible just a religious or moral code book. It acts as a light to show us where our moral nature has become perverted.

Sam also really struggles with the Bible and exaggerates what it teaches. The Bible often describes things without 'celebrating' them.

I think the most interesting part of this section is that which indicates that our own 'ethical intuitions are therefore,primary'. This presupposes way too much! Firstly it seems to imply that 21st century humans are de facto more moral than those of previous ages. The evidence for such chronological snobbery is to say the least questionable. Furthermore the ethic that Sam is speaking about (largely a liberal Western ethic) is one that is mainly derived from Christian teaching. It is by no means clear that once you remove the root, the fruit will remain.


2. "If religion were necessary for morality, there should be some evidence that atheists are less moral than believers. "

This only makes sense if the religion concerned was claiming that only those of that religion were moral. The Biblical teaching is that all human beings are created with a sense of right and wrong. Therefore the whole point is moot.

"I know of no society in recorded history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable. "

The irony here is of course that fundamentalist atheists have as a central dogma of their faith that they, and they only, are 'reasonable'.

"According to the United Nations' Human Development Report (2005), the most atheistic societies—countries like Norway, Iceland, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Belgium, Japan, the Netherlands, Denmark, and the United Kingdom—are actually the healthiest, as indicated by measures of life expectancy, adult literacy, per-capita income, educational attainment, gender equality, homicide rate, and infant mortality."

This is a demonstrably false claim. There are a far greater percentages of atheists in China than there are in any of these countries. Furthermore with the exception of Japan, all of them are societies based upon Christian teaching (which although in some cases coming very near to post –Christian, nonetheless still retain the Christian ethos.) Interestingly all of them, except Belgium have their roots in the Protestant tradition.


3. "If religion really provided the only conceivable objective basis for morality, it should be impossible to posit a nontheistic objective basis for morality. But it is not impossible; it is rather easy. "

Sam really struggles here. What is happiness? How does he define happiness? And what about suffering? What does he call suffering? How does he objectify those? What is love? What is hate? Are they not just chemical reactions? Two sides of the same coin? It is fundamentally irrational to speak in these terms without defining them and assuming that everyone means the same thing by them. If stealing something from someone else makes me happy, and provides for my family why should that be considered wrong? Why is it wrong to kill the weak in order to preserve the species? What is wrong about killing the child in the womb? Why not kill the elderly who can no longer look after or provide for themselves? Why not kill those who have the wrong beliefs (as Sam so famously advocated for some wrong thinkers)? Sam may think that it is rather easy to provide a nontheistic objective basis for morality. If it is that easy why does he not do so?

Just a couple of other comments on some of the comments –


6. Comment #47470 by MIND_REBEL


Of course you think that all religion is immoral. Yet this is nothing other than sheer prejudice not based on fact at all as is clearly evidence by your citation of the figures for Sweden and Finland and Kenya and South Africa.

80% of the population of Sweden and Finland are not 'hard core atheists' (except in atheist mythology and fantasy land!). They are certainly more secular countries – although Sweden had a State Church and 90% membership of that Church until 2000. Finland had and has one of the highest percentage of evangelicals in Western Europe. Furthermore Kenya is only 20% Catholic and South Africa 8%. The Vatican is not running these countries. And even if the majority were Roman Catholic the kind of simplistic answers and solutions you give would not work – they take no account of colonialism, imperialism, capitalism, geography, culture etc. But I guess all fundamentalists need simple answers. It's just distressing to see such rubbish posted here.

By the way – interesting discussion about torture. Surely if Sam was right about how easy it is to devise an atheistic morality things like this should be clear?

34. Comment #48994 by Russell Blackford on June 10, 2007 at 12:13 am

"A lot of our inherited morality could do with rational revision.

This is where religionists are particularly dangerous. They make typically make a fetish of moral rules, instead of keeping in mind what morality is for. This can lead them to be irrational and even cruel, wanting to enforce a morality that is narrow, warped, and harmful."

Again an interesting comment. Who is going to do the revising? Who is going to decide what is rational? What if I think that Sam Harris's morality is narrow, warped and harmful? Who decides? The man with the biggest gun?

If you are interested I posted the following on UTube as a discussion starter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br5cFu1A8DI

It is a reflection on TGD and the section on morality. I doubt you will agree but it does explain the other point of view (and yes before you post I know it is 'irrational, stupid, ignorant, faithhead etc' ). Let's just assume the insults and cut to the arguments.

Other Comments by The Wee Flea

37. Comment #49085 by BillySands on June 10, 2007 at 8:50 am

 avatarso David, am i perverted for not wanting to kill homosexuals? god does afterall command it.

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38. Comment #49089 by steve99 on June 10, 2007 at 9:12 am

 avatar
It acts as a light to show us where our moral nature has become perverted.


It can't be a very well focused and strong light, can it, considering the huge number of different interpretations. It is more like every individual is carrying their own personal selective torch.

They make typically make a fetish of moral rules, instead of keeping in mind what morality is for.


You need to look in the mirror to see who is making a fetish of moral rules, David. You are the one so strangely concerned about who does what with various bits of their bodies.

Again an interesting comment. Who is going to do the revising? Who is going to decide what is rational?


Let's throw the question back at you. Who revises your rules? You pick and choose what bits of the bible you want to follow, and even what bits of your own church's doctrine you take seriously (and it is good that you do, otherwise you would hold some strange and unpleasant views). But how do you decide what to accept and what to ignore?

Other Comments by steve99

39. Comment #49092 by steve99 on June 10, 2007 at 9:29 am

 avatar
although Sweden had a State Church and 90% membership of that Church until 2000.


As I am sure you well know, membership of a church can have little connection with belief. I am a member of the Catholic Church. Even though I am an atheist, I happen to remain a member (and counted as such) unless I am excommunicated.

Also, what you claim contradicts what people say in surveys. The vast majority in Sweden claim that they are atheists. What you need to provide is contrary surveys that show that people are believers.

Finland had and has one of the highest percentage of evangelicals in Western Europe.


It also has the highest percentages of reindeer herders in Western Europe, but that does not mean that the majority of people are interested in any kind of herding...
This is a demonstrably false claim.


First of all, I am impressed that you know more than the United Nations (is this like you knowing more than biologists and psychologists in other areas we have discussed?). Secondly, you seem to confuse demonstrating a claim false with simply claiming that it false. If you are going to claim this report is mistaken, where is your published report with the contrary evidence?

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40. Comment #49103 by BillySands on June 10, 2007 at 10:27 am

 avatar
The Bible's teaching about morality is that humans beings are moral because they are created in the image of God.


My big problem here is the assumption that god exists - evidence?. We also evolved, we were not created, and evolution favours selfish traits. EVOLUTION MEANS THERE IS NO FALL AND THERE IS NO SIN. Just good and bad social behaviour

This only makes sense if the religion concerned was claiming that only those of that religion were moral. The Biblical teaching is that all human beings are created with a sense of right and wrong. Therefore the whole point is moot.

Shame paul disagrees with you (and himself)Rom. 7:7:"Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, "You must not covet."

and 2:21 "Well then, if you teach others, why don't you teach yourself? You tell others not to steal, but do you steal?"
If we had an innate sense of gods morality, we wouldn't need to be taught, and I could rape women, keep slaves and kill homosexuals just as god likes. Thankfully, I dont get my standards from that bigoted book

So, bits of the bible say we dont have an innate sense of right and wrong. Darwinism however explains things nicely

more realistic figures for atheism http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/atheism.html
It turns out that children are automatically made members ofthe church at birth if one of their parents are a member, although actual weeklt attendance is less than 10% http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Sweden#Religion_in_Sweden_today that's a lot of athiests who have membership forced upon them. More sloppy misrepresentations david!


Other Comments by BillySands

41. Comment #49104 by BillySands on June 10, 2007 at 10:34 am

 avatarNice article here on religiosity and societal health http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html - guess who fares worst?

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42. Comment #49483 by The Wee Flea on June 12, 2007 at 4:47 am

"First of all, I am impressed that you know more than the United Nations (is this like you knowing more than biologists and psychologists in other areas we have discussed?)."

Steve - Mind Rebel had claimed that 80% of the populations of Sweden and Finland were 'Hardcore atheists' and that Kenya and South Africa were run by the Vatican. These claims are demonstrably false so why do you defend them?

The figures for Finland in 2001 were 87% claimed to be Christian, 12.6% non-religious and 0.18% muslim. About 20% of the population claimed to be evangelical as contrasted with 8% of the UK.

In Sweden the figures are 54% Christian, 42% on-religious and 5% evangelical.

One caveat - these figures are from 2001 but I suspect that in six years the number of hardcore atheists has not more than doubled.

Other Comments by The Wee Flea

43. Comment #49492 by steve99 on June 12, 2007 at 5:36 am

 avatar
Steve - Mind Rebel had claimed that 80% of the populations of Sweden and Finland were 'Hardcore atheists' and that Kenya and South Africa were run by the Vatican. These claims are demonstrably false so why do you defend them?


I wasn't defending them. I was attacking your point that listing people as members of a church means anything.

The figures for Finland in 2001 were 87% claimed to be Christian, 12.6% non-religious and 0.18% muslim. About 20% of the population claimed to be evangelical as contrasted with 8% of the UK. In Sweden the figures are 54% Christian, 42% on-religious and 5% evangelical.

One caveat - these figures are from 2001 but I suspect that in six years the number of hardcore atheists has not more than doubled.


You are just quoting figures. You need to say where you get these from.

I quote from:
"Atheism: Contemporary Rates and Patterns", Cambridge University Press:

"According to Norris and Inglehart (2004), 64% of those in Sweden do not believe in God."

That differs dramatically from your "42% non-religious".

The figures reported in this report also differ significantly from yours for Finland:

"Norris and Inglehart (2004) found that 28% of those in Finland do not believe in God. According to Bondeson (2003), 33% of Finns do not believe in "a personal God." According to Gustafsson and Pettersson (2002), 60% of Finns do not believe in a "personal God." According to Froese (2001), 41% of Finns are either atheist or agnostic."

These vary hugely, but are nothing like your "12.6%".

Other Comments by steve99

44. Comment #49745 by newatheist on June 13, 2007 at 8:01 am

 avatarHi Flea (and if anyone is still reading) -
Let's just assume the insults and cut to the arguments.
Where's the fun in that, you irrational, stupid, ignorant, faithhead? :-)

I thought I'd have a crack at answering your questions for Sam Harris. I'm under qualified but I'll try to put it as best I can. I'll probably muck it up (jump in epeeist if you're still here) but here goes.
What is love? What is hate? Are they not just chemical reactions?
Their effects on us are certainly measurably physiological, and love and "hate" seem to exist to varying degrees among different species of animals. Even my dog smiles and wags his tail. I love him. I think he loves me. It does a body good. Yes, "chemical reactions" seems to sum it up nicely, and I'm bloody glad of them. I wouldn't think they were non physical unless someone had, well … evidence they were non physical.
If stealing something from someone else makes me happy, and provides for my family why should that be considered wrong?
Because it's irrational in that it sets a ridiculous precedent. If you think it's right for you to steal for your family (i.e. it should go unpunished), then you have to concede that everyone can steal from you for their family. It doesn't take much to realise this is destructive to society. Little wonder human intelligence has evolved to appreciate the effects of negative reciprocity. This awareness is a strong mechanism for self preservation and that of the species.
Why is it wrong to kill the weak in order to preserve the species?
Apart from the fact we don't have to kill the weak to preserve the species, I'd say it's mostly the reciprocity again. If by "the weak" you mean disabled people, you'd hardly want to be killed yourself if you lost a limb. If by "the weak" you mean mentally challenged people, our over-riding morality comes from the chemical reactions that compel us to act with empathy. If not our empathy for the mentally challenged, then our empathy for the people who love them. And there's the ol' reciprocity. We'd hardly want our child killed if it was born with a mental defect, so we wouldn't kill the mentally defective child of anyone else.
What is wrong about killing the child in the womb?
That seems to depend on when you can call it a child. This is where debate rages as we all know.
Why not kill the elderly who can no longer look after or provide for themselves?
Sorry. I'm going to say reciprocity again. If I ran around culling o.a.p.'s I'd hardly stand much chance of to living to a ripe old age because I'd be culled as soon as I needed help getting out of my chair. And there's that pesky chemical reaction from old Ethel's kids. As a (grown) child you don't want mum put down. There's love (from the kids), empathy (for the kids), reciprocity. No god though, unless you put one there.
Why not kill those who have the wrong beliefs?
A religious speciality.
Sam may think that it is rather easy to provide a nontheistic objective basis for morality. If it is that easy why does he not do so?"
I haven't read much of Sam Harris. I saved this quote though -

"Empathy and compassion are our most basic moral impulses." (end quote)

"Chemical reactions" from centres in the brain which can be more (or less) developed, or active, in one individual or another. And I'm bloody glad of them.

Other Comments by newatheist

45. Comment #53277 by robotaholic on June 30, 2007 at 1:51 pm

 avatarSam is a great writer, I wonder what his next book will be about? - I want a sample!

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