Tuesday, June 12, 2007 | Reason : Backlash | print version

Baptists Warned About Islam, Atheism

by Eric Gorski, Washington Post

Reposted from:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/10/AR2007061001517.html

SAN ANTONIO -- Watergate figure Chuck Colson warned a gathering of Southern Baptist pastors Sunday night against what he described as two dire threats: the deadly marriage of Islam and fascism and a new, militant atheism growing in popularity in the West.

Colson, a former Nixon "hatchet man" who became a born-again Christian and founded an evangelical ministry to prisoners, called on Christians to do a better job of explaining their religion's worldview.

Colson, 75, spoke at a conference that precedes the annual meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention, which begins here Tuesday.

At one point, Colson said "Islam is a vicious, evil ... " and then before finishing the sentence, said, "Islamo-fascism is evil incarnate."

"Islamists," Colson said, "are very different. We will die for what we believe. They will kill for what they believe."

"The problem isn't terrorism," Colson said. "The problem is an ideology that is mixed with fascism ... We are in a long war, a long struggle."

Comments about Islam have generated controversy at past Southern Baptist meetings. In 2002, a former Southern Baptist Convention president, the Rev. Jerry Vines, called Muhammad, the Muslim prophet, a "demon-possessed pedophile."

The second threat, Colson said, was evident in the popularity of several best-selling books espousing atheism by Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and others.

"This is a virulent strain of atheism which seeks to destroy our belief system," Colson said.

Colson also dismissed a burgeoning movement known as "the emergent church" _ popular among younger Baptists and other evangelicals _ as "abandoning the search for truth" in favor of "conversations in coffee shops." He instead pointed to the success of booming Third World Churches, which Colson said adhere to "pure orthodox truth."

Colson, White House counsel for President Nixon, pleaded no contest to obstruction of justice in the Watergate scandal. He started Prison Fellowship in 1976.

Southern Baptists form the nation's largest Protestant denomination, with 16.3 million members.

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1. Comment #49571 by CruciFiction on June 12, 2007 at 12:17 pm

Proud to be "a virulent strain of atheism".

We're coming to destroy your delusion!

Other Comments by CruciFiction

2. Comment #49574 by bladesman on June 12, 2007 at 12:35 pm

Religion is the disease.

We are the cure! :oD

Other Comments by bladesman

3. Comment #49578 by Angieruns on June 12, 2007 at 12:41 pm

Thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster for "...Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and others..." and their transmission of the virulent strain of atheism.

We've been living under the influence of a violent strain of the Southern Baptist virus decades! Colson is correct: Islamo-Fascism IS evil incarnate, but it is no different than the proliferation of the Southern Baptist delusion.

Other Comments by Angieruns

4. Comment #49583 by the great teapot on June 12, 2007 at 12:50 pm

Thinks are looking up. Once upon a time the Godfrees were the "evil ones" Now we are just a virus.

Other Comments by the great teapot

5. Comment #49584 by Fezik on June 12, 2007 at 12:51 pm

" "Islamists," Colson said, "are very different. We will die for what we believe. They will kill for what they believe." "

How delighthfully complementary worldviews! Each group quite willing to do exactly what suits the other just fine. It's a wonder these people are not in better terms...

Other Comments by Fezik

6. Comment #49595 by konquererz on June 12, 2007 at 1:47 pm

Fascism
1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

This is the majority of Islam by its decrees. Its nothing new, not islamofacism, its just Islam. It is, in reality, the majority of religions, at least when they started. The Romans enforced Christianity the same way Islam does today. What a retarded and uneducated view point.

Other Comments by konquererz

7. Comment #49596 by BigJohn on June 12, 2007 at 1:53 pm

I am disgusted by the double standard of the religious. They insist that everyone must accept "under god", "in god we trust", the public display of the ten commandments everywhere, etc., etc., but if we who can think even suggest that we object to any of these things then we are evil for transgressing on their beliefs.

I am a virus!

Other Comments by BigJohn

8. Comment #49600 by burn0gas on June 12, 2007 at 2:02 pm

Thanks to the virulent strain of atheism I am no longer a fundie! What these guys are afraid of most is people thinking for themselves...

Other Comments by burn0gas

9. Comment #49601 by Henri Bergson on June 12, 2007 at 2:19 pm

I will break you.

Other Comments by Henri Bergson

10. Comment #49607 by newcomer on June 12, 2007 at 2:34 pm

"This is a virulent strain of atheism which seeks to destroy our belief system"

Overcoming what if false and illusory is liberating.

Other Comments by newcomer

11. Comment #49611 by pewkatchoo on June 12, 2007 at 2:41 pm

I am starting to think that Christopher Hitchins is totally right. If we leave them to their own devices they are going to blow up the planet. Either the islamic nutters or the religious right of America.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

12. Comment #49619 by sauronlord on June 12, 2007 at 3:40 pm

Does anyone else get a little worried about a Christian group saying things like:

"Islam is a vicious, evil ... "
"Islamo-fascism is evil incarnate."

"... We are in a long war, a long struggle."

Or heck, ANY group talking like that? Islam in itself is comparable and just as violent as Christianity, and Judaism.

What is different is the decades of oppression at the hand of the western powers.

It does not excuse any suicide bomber, or anyone else ---but we can try to understand it.

I feel like the more we complain about Islam, the more we are being misled/deluding ourselves about the source of the current conflict.

I will not join on the bashing of Islam, because "ordinary" people will take up that scapegoat.

What's sickening is how another intolerant religious body can pretend suicide bombers exists only because "Islam is evil". (completely leaving the sociological, anthropological, psychological, and political influences into this phenomena aside)

They conveniently leave out the centuries of brutality in the name of the Christian God.

I ask fellow Atheists:
Please be mindful of giving "average folk" bad impressions. Islam is bad exactly as Christianity is bad, and what we are seeing in "suicide bombers" is not anything constrained to Islam, or even any (non)religious groups in particular...

comments please?

Other Comments by sauronlord

13. Comment #49627 by Goldy on June 12, 2007 at 4:05 pm

I agree with sauronlord. Such accusatory language remind me of the stories about the Crusades, where the local Christian population were attacked by the invading Christian population because of their appearance.

Other Comments by Goldy

14. Comment #49630 by The Wee Flea on June 12, 2007 at 4:09 pm

"Islam is bad exactly as Christianity is bad, and what we are seeing in "suicide bombers" is not anything constrained to Islam, or even any (non)religious groups in particular..."

I'm afraid that it is this type of irrational hyperbole that gives atheism a bad name. Please tell us the suicide bombers in Christianity? Your equation of militant Islam with Christianity is not only a classic display of ignorance and prejudice but also a dangerous one. You allow your hatred of religion and your fundamentalist ideology to overcome the blindingly obvious. Wake up and smell the coffee. Your fight should be against those who seek to impose their religion by violence and destruction, not to use them as an excuse to hammer all religions and express your hatred of God.

Other Comments by The Wee Flea

15. Comment #49638 by Salvatore on June 12, 2007 at 4:57 pm

Sauronlord,

I get less worried hearing christian groups talk like that than hearing george bush and condoleezza rice talk like that!

Other Comments by Salvatore

16. Comment #49646 by Arcturus on June 12, 2007 at 5:41 pm

It's so sad that Third World is still so much under the influence of religion. Just take a look at Africa and the sickening influence of the muslmims and christians. The africans didn't deserve to get our delusions while giving us their riches.

So many died because of religion filled wars in Africa ...

Other Comments by Arcturus

17. Comment #49649 by sgr79 on June 12, 2007 at 5:48 pm

"This is a virulent strain of atheism which seeks to destroy our belief system," Colson said.

"He instead pointed to the success of booming Third World Churches, which Colson said adhere to "pure orthodox truth."

So we seek to destroy their belief system, yes, but I'm not aware that we had any missionaries of our own...what do they think they're doing in third world countries? They are destroying others' belief systems by instilling their own!

Once again, everything THEY do and believe in must be right, and they never seem to be able to put it in perspective. Wonder how they would feel if we started going door to door handing tracts in favor of atheism?

Other Comments by sgr79

18. Comment #49651 by Dr Benway on June 12, 2007 at 6:08 pm

Christianity is bad. Islam is worse. But Muslims aren't going to buy that comparison.

We have to target faith, or belief without evidence, to stand against Islam intellectually.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

19. Comment #49659 by Russell Blackford on June 12, 2007 at 7:37 pm

None of the religions/denominations/sects/supernaturalist cults/whatever have the intellectual and moral authority that they claim. That doesn't mean that they're all as bad as each other, in any sense. Critique them all - that's important - but don't treat them all as morally, or even intellectually, equivalent.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

20. Comment #49661 by down_under on June 12, 2007 at 7:57 pm

I agree, Christianity is bad, Islam is worse, Christianities history may be dog-awful but with Islam its the present!

All religions are harmful,Islam just more obviously so.

"Danish Mohammad Cartoons . "What better way to show the world how peaceful we are than by threatning to kill all those who suggest otherwise""

Other Comments by down_under

21. Comment #49662 by Satanburiedfossils on June 12, 2007 at 8:09 pm

As usual, another Christian seemingly unaware of the doctrines of his own Faith:

James 4:11-12 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

(Don't judge others; leave that to God.)

Luke 6:37-38 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

(The measure by which you judge others will be used to judge you. Forgive and forget.)

Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

(When you judge others you condemn yourself, as you do the very things you accuse others of.)

Luke 6:41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

(Remove the plank from your own eye before pointing out the splinter in your brother's eye.)

Of course, it is difficult to go through life without criticizing others. But Christians, by virtue of their Faith, are supposed to observe a higher moral standard. So why do they rarely practice what they preach?

Other Comments by Satanburiedfossils

22. Comment #49666 by Crazymalc on June 12, 2007 at 8:47 pm

Words like "Evil" when applied people, or groups of people, annoy me know end.

How stoopid and dividing are phrases like "Axis of Evil" and "Islam is a vicious, evil"?

Dumb. Dumb Dumb.

People do evil things no doubt, but that does not make them evil. Those idiots who flew the planes into the towers thought they were doing a "good thing". Striking a blow against "evil" America.

To blandly classify them as "evil people" misses the point of why they did it in the first place.

"They did it because the were evil" is a lazy statement

Other Comments by Crazymalc

23. Comment #49671 by MIND_REBEL on June 12, 2007 at 8:58 pm

Religion is evil, because it embraces irrationality, which is the common thread of ALL evil deeds. Remove religion, and people will act according to thier natural moral code, which is based on our evolutionary programing to not harm each other.

Other Comments by MIND_REBEL

24. Comment #49673 by Crazymalc on June 12, 2007 at 9:24 pm

Perhaps you should read the post again.

I said clasifing people as "evil" is wrong and misses the point.

I made no claim what so ever about a system of beliefs.

Other Comments by Crazymalc

25. Comment #49675 by appaZ on June 12, 2007 at 11:06 pm

- Colson also dismissed a burgeoning movement known as "the emergent church" _ popular among younger Baptists and other evangelicals _ as "abandoning the search for truth" in favor of "conversations in coffee shops." He instead pointed to the success of booming Third World Churches, which Colson said adhere to "pure orthodox truth." -

The naughty boys at the "emergent church" have "abandoned the search for truth"

Point #1 - I did not think that any church was genuinally intersested in searchiung for the truth, so I wasn't surprised to hear that one of them was abandoning it.

Also, those little scallywags at the "emergent church" have "conversations in coffee shops."

Point #2 - I like conversations in coffee shops!

The booming Third World Churches and their "pure orthodox truth."

Point #3 - A slight adjustment is required here

" pure unorthodox fairy tale "

Other Comments by appaZ

26. Comment #49680 by flistr8 on June 12, 2007 at 11:34 pm

I am the virus, you are the virus, we are the virus, goo goo g'joob (sorry John)

Other Comments by flistr8

27. Comment #49684 by epeeist on June 13, 2007 at 1:04 am

Comment #49630 by The Wee Flea

Your fight should be against those who seek to impose their religion by violence and destruction, not to use them as an excuse to hammer all religions and express your hatred of God.

If you take that path then you allow the subversion of democratic processes by groups like the Dominionists and Christian Embassy movement.

There is an extract from C.S. Lewis on the site at the moment which, strangely enough, I agree with. I wouldn't want a theocracy whether it was imposed by violence or by corruption of the democratic process.

Other Comments by epeeist

28. Comment #49688 by Ick of the East on June 13, 2007 at 1:40 am

I wonder how evil Islam really is, when it allows you to breastfeed off of chicks in the office?

I'd like to see Christianity top that!

Other Comments by Ick of the East

29. Comment #49693 by BillySands on June 13, 2007 at 2:12 am

Wee Flea, a man who publicly declared the pope to be the antichrist should not try and take the moral high ground

Other Comments by BillySands

30. Comment #49701 by Quetzalcoatl on June 13, 2007 at 2:54 am

Wee Flea-

Please tell us the suicide bombers in Christianity?.......Your fight should be against those who seek to impose their religion by violence and destruction

I'm sorry, I didn't realise that bombing without suicide was somehow less wrong.

Since you asked for a few Christian examples- the IRA (backed for many years by rich American Christians): Omagh, Canary Wharf. In America, all those organisations that used to bomb abortion clinics and try to kill the people who worked there.

Oh, still waiting for the answers to my questions on that other thread.....

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

31. Comment #49704 by Crazymalc on June 13, 2007 at 3:42 am

Ick of the east said:

I wonder how evil Islam really is, when it allows you to breastfeed off of chicks in the office?

Refering to woman as "chicks" does not help either

Other Comments by Crazymalc

32. Comment #49705 by BillySands on June 13, 2007 at 3:45 am

Oh, still waiting for the answers to my questions on that other thread.....

Me too

Other Comments by BillySands

33. Comment #49706 by Philip1978 on June 13, 2007 at 3:49 am

I am still waiting for David to realise the importance of knowing where his towel is rather than his god, towels are so much more useful!

Other Comments by Philip1978

34. Comment #49707 by BillySands on June 13, 2007 at 3:50 am

am still waiting for David to realise the importance of knowing where his towel is rather than his god, towels are so much more useful!

Perhaps he has thrown it in?

Other Comments by BillySands

35. Comment #49708 by Quetzalcoatl on June 13, 2007 at 3:59 am

Billy-

Me too

I figure that if I ask enough times, he might provide an answer, if only to shut me up. Little does he know.....

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

36. Comment #49728 by MAS2007 on June 13, 2007 at 7:16 am

"This is a virulent strain of atheism which seeks to destroy our belief system," Colson said.

News flash, your belief system never made it to the working prototype stage.

Typical conartist, moves on to the next con without missing a beat.

Also I'm Proud to be "a virulent strain of atheism".

Other Comments by MAS2007

37. Comment #49757 by Arcturus on June 13, 2007 at 9:06 am

This comes smack on to Grayling's comment, the likes of Colson really feel insecure. The new wave of virulent atheism is real, and eating away at the religious establishment.

Keep up the good work, this time it might work properly.

Other Comments by Arcturus

38. Comment #49761 by happyatheist on June 13, 2007 at 9:33 am

"" "Islamists," Colson said, "are very different. We will die for what we believe. They will kill for what they believe." "

This is perfect. LOL! I think all those "willing to die" and all those "willing to kill" should just gather in one big coliseum and duke it out. LOL! Whose "god" will win? How many "true believers" will remain standing? (Hopefully none of 'em)...Place your bets folks and don't forget the popcorn.

I'd actually pay to see this. Eternal bliss is my birthright. LOL!

Other Comments by happyatheist

39. Comment #49781 by Steven Mading on June 13, 2007 at 12:22 pm

"Sauronlord", keep in mind that while there is bad stuff in both Islam and Christianity, One is less free to re-interpret the scripture to make one's self believe it says something it doesn't in Islam. So the bad things in Islam are more likely to have real-world effects through its believers than the bad things in Christianity (since so many of Christianity's believers can easily change the religion into something nicer while deceiving themselves into thinking they're following the original meaning of the religion.)

Other Comments by Steven Mading

40. Comment #49858 by Beachbum on June 14, 2007 at 12:15 am

Does anyone think it might be possible that the Islamic fundamentalist, among many other complaints, feel the scientific findings in the west are cutting the legs out from under their religion?

It's just a thought, but I see many similarities in current events, when I calibrate for the differing idiosyncrasies of the Abrahamic religions.

I think the beast is dying, maybe faster than we could have dared to hope.

Does this post mean we are in forefront of religionist thought, no-longer to be ignored?

This is a virulent strain of atheism

Does "virulent" mean supported by scientific facts?

Hey guys, I'm virulent!

Other Comments by Beachbum

41. Comment #50519 by D'Arcy on June 18, 2007 at 2:21 pm

I know that you shouldn't shoot the messenger but this guy has some nerve. He's been "born again", which gives him, in his mind, the right to lecture others:

Colson, White House counsel for President Nixon, pleaded no contest to obstruction of justice in the Watergate scandal. He started Prison Fellowship in 1976.

His pernicious Southern Baptist views should surely just allow his saviour to deal with the Islamic rival pretender to the "almighty" throne. But no, having obstructed justice on behalf of Tricky Dicky, Plucky Chuck just has to get his oar in, and have a swipe at non believers too. Go back to sleep Chuck.

Other Comments by D'Arcy

42. Comment #50863 by Viking on June 20, 2007 at 8:32 am

"Islamists," Colson said, "are very different. We will die for what we believe. They will kill for what they believe."

Sounds like a "match made in heaven." :)

Other Comments by Viking

43. Comment #53621 by JanChan on July 2, 2007 at 9:35 am

Being an atheist, and being honest as well, I would never boast that I will die for what I believe. In fact, I would be quite tempted to give up my public views for a large monetary gift. However, what is kept in my head will stay in my head, no one can change that.

Unlike religious people, if atheism becomes a crime (hopefully that will never occur), I will never participate in a crusade. I'll just adapt to the way it has been more than 3 centuries ago, resorting to calling myself a deist or pantheist. The inability for religion to yield, even in the face of evidence, is perhaps one of the greatest problems of the world.

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44. Comment #207790 by sojournerlumus on July 10, 2008 at 7:19 am

I know this may seem a little late, but I've only just joined you all.

This is a virulent strain of atheism which seeks to destroy our belief system," Colson said.
'Colson also dismissed a burgeoning movement----'

I don't think he exactly dismissed it as the writer implies (or wishfully thinks); far from it,
he sounds more like scared stiff.
And there's nothing like the word 'struggle' to whip the faithful into a purposeful froth.

'Colson also dismissed a burgeoning movement known as "the emergent church" _ popular among younger Baptists and other evangelicals _ as "abandoning the search for truth" in favor of "conversations in coffee shops." He instead pointed to the success of booming Third World Churches, which Colson said adhere to "pure orthodox truth."'
Strange, I thought the Faith-heads already claimed to have the Truth: I fondly imagined we Atheists were the only ones actually searching for it. Still, there's Truth, Truth, and by the look of it 'Pure Orthodox Truth'. It's all a bit confusing for the Faithful isn't it.

Other Comments by sojournerlumus