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Friday, June 22, 2007 | Science : Medicine | print version Print | Comments

Document Doctors' beliefs can hinder patient care

by Sabrina Rubin Erdely, Self

Thanks to Steve Penland for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19190916/

selfNew laws shore up providers' right to refuse treatment based on values

Lori Boyer couldn't stop trembling as she sat on the examining table, hugging her hospital gown around her. Her mind was reeling. She'd been raped hours earlier by a man she knew — a man who had assured Boyer, 35, that he only wanted to hang out at his place and talk. Instead, he had thrown her onto his bed and assaulted her. "I'm done with you," he'd tonelessly told her afterward. Boyer had grabbed her clothes and dashed for her car in the freezing predawn darkness. Yet she'd had the clarity to drive straight to the nearest emergency room — Good Samaritan Hospital in Lebanon, Pennsylvania — to ask for a rape kit and talk to a sexual assault counselor. Bruised and in pain, she grimaced through the pelvic exam. Now, as Boyer watched Martin Gish, M.D., jot some final notes into her chart, she thought of something the rape counselor had mentioned earlier.

"I'll need the morning-after pill," she told him.

Dr. Gish looked up. He was a trim, middle-aged man with graying hair and, Boyer thought, an aloof manner. "No," Boyer says he replied abruptly. "I can't do that." He turned back to his writing.

Boyer stared in disbelief. No? She tried vainly to hold back tears as she reasoned with the doctor: She was midcycle, putting her in danger of getting pregnant. Emergency contraception is most effective within a short time frame, ideally 72 hours. If he wasn't willing to write an EC prescription, she'd be glad to see a different doctor. Dr. Gish simply shook his head. "It's against my religion," he said, according to Boyer. (When contacted, the doctor declined to comment for this article.)

Boyer left the emergency room empty-handed. "I was so vulnerable," she says. "I felt victimized all over again. First the rape, and then the doctor making me feel powerless." Later that day, her rape counselor found Boyer a physician who would prescribe her EC. But Boyer remained haunted by the ER doctor's refusal — so profoundly, she hasn't been to see a gynecologist in the two and a half years since. "I haven't gotten the nerve up to go, for fear of being judged again," she says.

Doctors refusing treatment

Even under less dire circumstances than Boyer's, it's not always easy talking to your doctor about sex. Whether you're asking about birth control, STDs or infertility, these discussions can be tinged with self-consciousness, even embarrassment. Now imagine those same conversations, but supercharged by the anxiety that your doctor might respond with moral condemnation — and actually refuse your requests.

That's exactly what's happening in medical offices and hospitals around the country: Catholic and conservative Christian health care providers are denying women a range of standard, legal medical care. Planned Parenthood M.D.s report patients coming to them because other gynecologists would not dole out birth control prescriptions or abortion referrals. Infertility clinics have turned away lesbians and unmarried women; anesthesiologists and obstetricians are refusing to do sterilizations; Catholic hospitals have delayed ending doomed pregnancies because abortions are only allowed to save the life of the mother. In a survey published this year in The New England Journal of Medicine, 63 percent of doctors said it is acceptable to tell patients they have moral objections to treatments, and 18 percent felt no obligation to refer patients elsewhere. And in a recent SELF.com poll, nearly 1 in 20 respondents said their doctors had refused to treat them for moral, ethical or religious reasons. "It's obscene," says Jamie D. Brooks, a former staff attorney for the National Health Law Program who continues to work on projects with the Los Angeles advocacy group. "Doctors swear an oath to serve their patients. But instead, they are allowing their religious beliefs to compromise patient care. And too often, the victims of this practice are women."

Compared with the highly publicized issue of pharmacists who refuse to dispense birth control and emergency contraception, physician refusals are a little-discussed topic. Patients denied treatment rarely complain — the situation tends to feel so humiliatingly personal. And when patients do make noise, the case is usually resolved quietly. "The whole situation was traumatizing and embarrassing, and I just wanted to put it behind me," Boyer says. She came forward only after a local newspaper reported an almost identical story: In July 2006, retail clerk Tara Harnish visited the same ER after being sexually assaulted by a stranger, was examined by the same Dr. Gish — and when her mother called Dr. Gish's office the next day to get EC for Harnish, she was refused. "Then I knew it wasn't just me, that this was a larger problem and it could happen to anybody," Boyer says.

Harnish, 21, was shocked by the way the doctor treated her. "He seemed more concerned with saving the (potential) pregnancy than he was with my health," she says. "He turned me away when I needed medical help. That's not what a doctor is supposed to do." Harnish was too shaken by her rape to pursue the matter; her mother called Harnish's gynecologist for a prescription. Then she called the newspaper. Despite the attention the story attracted, Dr. Gish continues to work at Good Samaritan Hospital. Spokesman Bill Carpenter will only say that "the issue has been resolved internally, and we're going to move forward."

In many cases, women don't even know a doctor is withholding treatment. Boyer and Harnish, for example, wouldn't have realized they'd been denied care if they'd been among the estimated one in three women who don't know about EC. In the New England Journal of Medicine survey, 8 percent of physicians said they felt no obligation to present all options to their patients. "When you see a doctor, you presume you're getting all the information you need to make a decision," notes Jill Morrison, senior counsel for health and reproductive rights at the National Women's Law Center in Washington, D.C. "Especially in a crisis situation, like a rape, you often don't think to question your care. But unfortunately, now we can't even trust doctors to tell us what we need to know."

An ethical dilemma

To many doctors, however, the issue represents a genuine ethical dilemma. "The physician's number-one creed is 'First, do no harm,' " says Sandy Christiansen, M.D., an ob/gyn in Frederick, Maryland, who is active in the Christian Medical and Dental Associations, a 16,000-member group for health care professionals based in Bristol, Tennessee. "I know that life begins at conception, and that each person has inherent value. That includes the life of the unborn." Dr. Christiansen says she will not give abortion referrals, opposes EC and, while she has prescribed birth control, is reconsidering the morality of that position. "Doctors are people, too," she adds. "We have to be able to leave the hospital and live with ourselves. If you feel in your heart an action would cause harm to somebody — born or unborn — it's legitimate to decline to participate."

The American Medical Association in Chicago, the nation's largest physician group, effectively agrees with her; its policy allows a doctor to decline a procedure if it conflicts with her moral ideology. The law also favors medical professionals. In 1973, following Roe v. Wade, Congress passed the so-called Church Amendment, allowing federally funded health care providers to refuse to do abortions. In the years since, 46 states have adopted their own abortion refusal clauses — or, as proponents call them, conscience clauses — allowing doctors to opt out. Now many states have gone further. Sixteen legislatures have given doctors the right to refuse to perform sterilizations; eight states say doctors don't have to prescribe contraception. "This is about the rights of the individual, about our constitutional right to freedom of religion," says Frank Manion, an attorney with the American Center for Law and Justice, a legal group in Washington, D.C. Founded by minister Pat Robertson, the organization has represented health care providers and lobbied for laws that protect them. "We're not trying to deny anybody access to treatment," Manion adds. "We're saying, 'Don't make your choice my choice.' "

When Elizabeth Dotts walked into her new doctor's office for a gynecologic exam and checkup, she didn't realize she was treading into the front lines of a culture war. "I was just going for my annual visit, nothing out of the ordinary," says the 26-year-old YWCA grant coordinator. Dotts, who was single, had recently moved to Birmingham, Alabama, and was seeing an M.D. recommended by a coworker. The visit was unremarkable until she asked for a refill of her birth control prescription. That's when the doctor informed her that he was Catholic and the pills were against his religion.

"The look he gave me actually made me feel ashamed," Dotts says. "Like I had this wild and crazy sex life. Like he was trying to protect me from myself." Her bewilderment quickly turned to anger — "I thought, 'Wait, what in the world? Where am I?' " — especially when she remembered that her insurance covered only one annual gynecology checkup. Dotts, who'd majored in religion in college, got tough with the doctor.

"I'm glad for you that you're faithful," she told him. "But don't push it on me. I'm here for my treatment, and I expect you to give it to me." Five minutes of verbal sparring later, the doctor relented with a six-month prescription — but only after Dotts told him she had been put on the Pill to relieve menstrual cramping, not to prevent pregnancy. Dotts grabbed the prescription and left, resolving to find herself a new gynecologist. "Before, walking into a doctor's office, I assumed we were on the same side," she says. "I don't make that assumption now. I ask a million questions and advocate for myself."

Bills to protect patients

This tug-of-war between physicians and patients is playing out in state legislatures, where a handful of bills aim to protect women. A Pennsylvania proposal, for example, would compel ER doctors to provide rape victims with information about emergency contraception and to dispense it on request — a law already on the books in California, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Ohio and Washington. A federal version of the bill is under consideration by a House subcommittee.

But such efforts have been more than matched by those of conscience-clause activists. Since 2005, 27 states introduced bills to widen refusal clauses. Four states are considering granting carte blanche refusal rights — much like the law adopted by Mississippi in 2004, which allows any health care provider to refuse practically anything on moral grounds. "It's written so broadly, there's virtually no protection for patients," says Adam Sonfield, senior public policy associate for the Washington, D.C., office of the Guttmacher Institute, a reproductive-health research group. Sonfield notes that many refusal clauses do not require providers to warn women about restrictions on services or to refer them elsewhere. "You have to balance doctors' rights with their responsibilities to patients, employers and communities," he adds. "Doctors shouldn't be forced to provide services, but they can't just abandon patients."

In theory, the laws aren't aimed solely at women's health — a bill in New Jersey lists eye doctors and prosthetics technicians as examples of providers who'd be allowed to refuse care based on their beliefs. But Morrison warns women not to be fooled. "I ask you, what belief would keep someone from fitting a patient with a prosthetic limb?" she asks. "What they're really after is limiting access to women's health care. Reproductive health is seen as something other than regular health care" — not a straightforward matter of treating and healing, but something laden with morality — "and if you treat it that way, it becomes something providers can say yes or no to." Men, for the most part, escape such scrutiny: It's pretty hard to imagine someone being made to feel he's going straight to hell for choosing to take Viagra or get a vasectomy. And if women come to fear their doctors' judgments, a new set of problems can develop. "Then you have women who don't communicate with their doctors or avoid getting care," Morrison warns. "Any way you look at it, it's dangerous for women."

Complaint filed, but case closed

The stakes were high for Realtor Cheryl Bray when she visited a physician in Encinitas, California, two and a half years ago. Though she was there for a routine physical, the reason for the exam was anything but routine: Then a single 41-year-old, Bray had decided to adopt a baby in Mexico and needed to prove to authorities there that she was healthy. "I was under a tight deadline," Bray remembers; she had been matched with a birth mother who was less than two months from delivering. Bray had already passed a daunting number of tests — having her taxes certified, multiple background checks, home inspections by a social worker, psychological evaluations. When she showed up at the office of Fred Salley, M.D., a new doctor a friend had recommended, she was looking forward to crossing another task off her list. Instead, 10 minutes into the appointment, Dr. Salley asked, "So, your husband is in agreement with your decision to adopt?"

"I'm not married," Bray told him.

"You're not?" He calmly put down his pen. "Then I'm not comfortable continuing this exam."

Bray says she tried to reason with Dr. Salley but received only an offer for a referral at some future date. Dr. Salley disputes this, telling SELF that he offered to send Bray to another doctor in his group that day. "My decision to refer Ms. Bray was not because she was unmarried; rather, it was based on my moral belief that a child should have two parental units," he adds. "Such religious beliefs are a fundamental right guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States."

Bray sobbed in her parked car for another 45 minutes before she could collect herself for the drive home. "I had a lot of pent-up emotions," she remembers. "When you are going through an adoption, you have to prove that you are a fit parent at every stage. I really felt put through the ringer, and the doctor compounded that feeling."

Bray managed to get an appointment with another physician about a month later and was approved for the adoption two weeks before her daughter, Paolina, was born. But she remained furious enough that she filed a complaint against Dr. Salley with the Medical Board of California — and then was shocked when, in April 2006, the board closed the case without taking any action. When she complained to Dr. Salley's employer, a clinic official wrote back that "based on personally held conscience and moral principles" her doctor had been within his rights to refuse her as a patient. "Apparently," she says, "it's OK to discriminate against somebody, as long as it's for religious reasons."

Providers often prevail

It's true that several lawsuits have favored health providers who refuse services based on their principles. In a 2002 wrongful-termination case in Riverside County, California, for example, a born-again Christian nurse was fired for refusing to give out emergency contraception — but she was vindicated when the jury agreed that her rights had been violated, awarding her $19,000 in back pay and $28,000 for emotional distress. And in a recent case in San Diego, an appeals court ruled against 35-year-old Guadalupe Benitez. Hoping to start a family with her lesbian partner, Benitez received fertility treatments for nearly a year at North Coast Women's Care Medical Group in Encinitas. But when drugs and home inseminations failed, two doctors and a nurse all bowed out of doing an intrauterine insemination, saying their religion would not allow it.

Their reasoning is in dispute: Benitez has claimed both doctors told her they objected to her sexual orientation. Carlo Coppo, a lawyer for the doctors, says they refused because she was unmarried. Benitez, who went on to have three children with the help of another clinic, has appealed to the California Supreme Court and is awaiting its decision.

Her attorney, Jennifer C. Pizer of Lambda Legal in Los Angeles, says she's heard from numerous lesbians denied access to fertility treatments. "Reproductive medicine has given human beings choices that didn't exist in previous generations, but the rules about how we exercise those choices should be the same for all groups of people," she argues. Allowing doctors to refer a patient to someone else, she adds, is the equivalent of a restaurant telling a black person, "Go next door. We don't serve your kind here."

In the end, the women in all of the incidents above were able to get the treatment they wanted, even if they had to go elsewhere. So one could see doctor refusals as a mere inconvenience. "In 99.9 percent of these cases, the patients walk away with what they came for, and everyone's satisfied," Manion asserts. "I know there's the horror story of the lonely person in the middle of nowhere who meets one of my clients. But those cases are so rare." Access to reproductive health care, however, is already a challenge in some areas. "Out here, it's a very real issue," says Stacey Anderson of Planned Parenthood of Montana in Helena. "We have some really gigantic counties where if you're refused a service by a primary care physician or a gynecologist, you might have to drive two, three hours to find another."

Moreover, you don't need to be in a rural area to have limited access, points out attorney Brooks; all you need to be is poor. "Lower-income people who are refused health care are trapped," Brooks says. "They can't pay out of pocket for these services. And they may not have transportation to go elsewhere. So they really don't have options."

What's best for the patient

If there's one thing both sides can agree on, it's this: In an emergency, doctors need to put aside personal beliefs to do what's best for the patient. But in a world guided by religious directives, even this can be a slippery proposition.

Ob/gyn Wayne Goldner, M.D., learned this lesson a few years back when a patient named Kathleen Hutchins came to his office in Manchester, New Hampshire. She was only 14 weeks pregnant, but her water had broken. Dr. Goldner delivered the bad news: Because there wasn't enough amniotic fluid left and it was too early for the fetus to survive on its own, the pregnancy was hopeless. Hutchins would likely miscarry in a matter of weeks. But in the meanwhile, she stood at risk for serious infection, which could lead to infertility or death. Dr. Goldner says his devastated patient chose to get an abortion at local Elliot Hospital. But there was a problem. Elliot had recently merged with nearby Catholic Medical Center — and as a result, the hospital forbade abortions.

"I was told I could not admit her unless there was a risk to her life," Dr. Goldner remembers. "They said, 'Why don't you wait until she has an infection or she gets a fever?' They were asking me to do something other than the standard of care. They wanted me to put her health in jeopardy." He tried admitting Hutchins elsewhere, only to discover that the nearest abortion provider was nearly 80 miles away in Lebanon, New Hampshire — and that she had no car. Ultimately, Dr. Goldner paid a taxi to drive her the hour and a half to the procedure. (The hospital merger has since dissolved, and Elliot is secular once again.)

"Unfortunately, her story is the tip of the iceberg," Dr. Goldner says. Since the early 1990s, hospitals have been steadily consolidating operations to save money; so many secular community hospitals have been bought up that, today, nearly one in five hospital beds is in a religiously owned institution, according to the nonprofit group MergerWatch in New York City.

What is standard of care?

Every Catholic hospital is bound by the ethical directives of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, which forbid abortion and sterilization (unless they are lifesaving), in vitro fertilization, surrogate motherhood, some prenatal genetic testing, all artificial forms of birth control and the use of condoms for HIV prevention. Baptist and Seventh Day Adventist hospitals may also restrict abortions. Which means that if your local hospital has been taken over — or if you're ever rushed to the nearest hospital in an emergency — you could be in for a surprise at the services you can't get.

You wouldn't necessarily know a hospital's affiliation upon your arrival. "The name of the hospital may not change after a merger, even if its philosophy has," Morrison notes. "The community is often in the dark that changes have taken place at all." The burden to know falls entirely on the patient, who can either search the Catholic Health Association's directory of member hospitals (at CHAUSA.org) or ask her doctor outright. Either way, says Morrison, "it requires you to be an extremely educated consumer."

Family physician Debra Stulberg, M.D., was completing her residency in 2004 when West Suburban Medical Center in Oak Park, Illinois, was acquired by the large Catholic system Resurrection Health Care. "They assured us that patient care would be unaffected," Dr. Stulberg says. "But then I got to see the reality." The doctor was struck by the hoops women had to jump through to get basic care. "One of my patients was a mother of four who had wanted a tubal ligation at delivery but was turned down," she says. "When I saw her not long afterward, she was pregnant with unwanted twins."

And in emergency scenarios, Dr. Stulberg says, the newly merged hospital did not offer standard-of-care treatments. In one case that made the local paper, a patient came in with an ectopic pregnancy: an embryo had implanted in her fallopian tube. Such an embryo has zero chance of survival and is a serious threat to the mother, as its growth can rupture the tube. The more invasive way to treat an ectopic is to surgically remove the tube. An alternative, generally less risky way is to administer methotrexate, a drug also used for cancer. It dissolves the pregnancy but spares the tube, preserving the women's fertility. "The doctor thought the noninvasive treatment was best," Dr. Stulberg recounts. But Catholic directives specify that even in an ectopic pregnancy, doctors cannot perform "a direct abortion" — which, the on-call ob/gyn reasoned, would nix the drug option. (Surgery, on the other hand, could be considered a lifesaving measure that indirectly kills the embryo, and may be permitted.) The doctor didn't wait to take it up with the hospital's ethical committee; she told the patient to check out and head to another ER. (Citing patient confidentiality, West Suburban declined to comment, confirming only that as a Catholic hospital, it adheres to religious directives "in every instance.")

Turns out, the definition of emergency depends on whom you ask. Dr. Christiansen, the pro-life ob/gyn, says she would not object to either method of ending an ectopic pregnancy. "I do feel that the one indication for abortion is to save the mother's life — that's clear in my mind," she says. "But the reality is, the vast majority of abortions are elective. There are very, very few instances where the mother's life is truly in jeopardy." She can recall having seen only one such situation: During Dr. Christiansen's residency, a patient in the second trimester of pregnancy had a detached placenta; the attending physician performed an abortion to save the woman from bleeding to death. "That was a legitimate situation," Dr. Christiansen says. But in general, "it's a pure judgment call. A doctor would have to be in the situation and decide whether it constitutes a life-threatening emergency or not."

Raise your hand if you'd like to be the test case.

Comments 1 - 50 of 54 |

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1. Comment #51348 by k1mgy on June 22, 2007 at 12:49 pm

 avatarI'm enraged (once more in the daily cycle).

Lawsuits, lots of lawsuits. Formal complaints to boards of medical registration. Formal complaints to insurance providers. Lots of bad press. Public humiliation. Editorials. Picketing. Thrashing.

These idiots "practicing" medicine deserve to be exposed and run out of Dodge.

Other Comments by k1mgy

2. Comment #51352 by Devolution on June 22, 2007 at 12:58 pm

 avatarI was so pissed when I first read this I had to send it in to you guys. Can you imagine being in this poor womens shoes? The fact that an educated doctor would deny necessary medical care to someone in her state is contemptible and unforgivable.

Other Comments by Devolution

3. Comment #51353 by Bonzai on June 22, 2007 at 1:02 pm

I remember reading on the bbc that some muslim doctors in Europe don't disinfect their hands with alcohol because alcohol is harem(forbidden) in Islam.

Other Comments by Bonzai

4. Comment #51355 by happyatheist on June 22, 2007 at 1:07 pm

"These idiots "practicing" medicine deserve to be exposed and run out of Dodge."

As a female and human being, I completely agree. This all sickens me.

Other Comments by happyatheist

5. Comment #51363 by RabbitDynamite on June 22, 2007 at 1:35 pm

That's actually physically sickening.

Other Comments by RabbitDynamite

6. Comment #51364 by graham513 on June 22, 2007 at 1:41 pm

Mr. Hitchens wasn't kidding when he said it "poisons everything".

Other Comments by graham513

7. Comment #51365 by konquererz on June 22, 2007 at 1:42 pm

 avatarThis is bullshit! Just another example of how religion finds ways to fuck up peoples lives! Oh yes doctor please, cram your religious baloney down onto a rape victim, I'm sure thats just what she wants! Stupid little men!

If it was my daughter or wife in the same situations, I would be telling that doctor that he/she had better treat me or get someone who can, else I will find a doctor that will and tell the insurance company to refuse pay!

Other Comments by konquererz

8. Comment #51366 by Nails on June 22, 2007 at 1:43 pm

 avatar
Ob/gyn Wayne Goldner, M.D., learned this lesson a few years back when a patient named Kathleen Hutchins came to his office in Manchester, New Hampshire. She was only 14 weeks pregnant, but her water had broken. Dr. Goldner delivered the bad news: Because there wasn't enough amniotic fluid left and it was too early for the fetus to survive on its own, the pregnancy was hopeless. Hutchins would likely miscarry in a matter of weeks. But in the meanwhile, she stood at risk for serious infection, which could lead to infertility or death. Dr. Goldner says his devastated patient chose to get an abortion at local Elliot Hospital. But there was a problem. Elliot had recently merged with nearby Catholic Medical Center — and as a result, the hospital forbade abortions.

"I was told I could not admit her unless there was a risk to her life," Dr. Goldner remembers. "They said, 'Why don't you wait until she has an infection or she gets a fever?' They were asking me to do something other than the standard of care. They wanted me to put her health in jeopardy." He tried admitting Hutchins elsewhere, only to discover that the nearest abortion provider was nearly 80 miles away in Lebanon, New Hampshire — and that she had no car. Ultimately, Dr. Goldner paid a taxi to drive her the hour and a half to the procedure. (The hospital merger has since dissolved, and Elliot is secular once again.)

WTF?
If it had been based on race then there would be a few doctors out of a job.
I wonder if anyone could enlighten me, exactly where in the bible does it forbid arbortion and birth control?

Other Comments by Nails

9. Comment #51367 by jaytee_555 on June 22, 2007 at 1:47 pm

Before training and graduation, medical students should declare if they are unwilling to provide the sort of treatment discussed in this article. Those who choose to opt out of providing perfectly legal procedures on religious (or any other grounds) should be given an inferior and limited qualification, reflected in the letters after their name. Suggestions being, O.P.Q. (Only Partially Qualified) or I.F.C. (I'm a F***ing Cretin).

Other Comments by jaytee_555

10. Comment #51369 by Blue Lithium on June 22, 2007 at 1:52 pm

That's horrible. Just another way that religious beliefs are given too much respect in society. How about this--if you don't agree with abortion/birth control et al, don't become a goddamned doctor.
It just shows(again) how little the damn Catholic church cares about actual people.

Other Comments by Blue Lithium

11. Comment #51371 by kwietman on June 22, 2007 at 1:55 pm

As a healthcare provider in the U.S. (I'm a Physician Assistant), this absolutely drives me nuts. If you don't want to do women's reproductive health, DON'T BECOME A GYNECOLOGIST! You don't see this happening in Cardiology or Dermatology, do you? It's the same damn thing that leads to Catholic charities allowing people in Africa to die of AIDS because condoms are against Vatican Law. We were talking about this at lunch in my office. This is an ideology that affects pretty much one population: women, and more typically poor women who have limited reproductive options to begin with. To have their doctor moralizing about their sexuality just underscores an entrenched sexism in medicine. Well, really, it's the sexism of religion, but it bleeds into these areas at will. The "Father Phenomenon," in which there is a patriarchal control of morality, whether it's the men of the village or the skyfather.

Other Comments by kwietman

12. Comment #51373 by wendelin on June 22, 2007 at 2:08 pm

I am outraged. How can it be legal for essential-care providers to deny access to legal procedures?

If we lived in a laissez-faire economy, a free-for-all with no government restrictions the healthcare industry (no restrictions on opening six hospitals right next to one another, if need be; no state-funded "managed" healthcare) then I could understand the rights of private hospitals and private doctors refusing to treat patients according to their "conscience" - though I can't help but notice how consciences only come into play when it's WOMEN's reproductive health in question.

I am outraged, outraged, outraged.

As a human being, as a woman, as a person who underwent an abortion with the help of blissfully nonjudgemental doctors at Planned Parenthood - I am outraged.

Other Comments by wendelin

13. Comment #51376 by Corylus on June 22, 2007 at 2:15 pm

 avatarInteresting reading…

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/oath_modern.html

I believe the relevant line here is "above all I must not play at God".

Doctors when training (in most of the west anyway and definitely in the US and UK) are given a seminal text known as the "Principles of Biomedical Ethics".

Four principles for the treatment of patients are laid out. These are:

1) Beneficence - do good to your patient.
2) Non-Malefience -(do no harm, a.k.a. primum non nocere)
3) Autonomy - (seek to both respect and increase the autonomy of your patient)
4) Justice - allocate resources fairly and without prejudice.

These are tricky in that no one principle 'trumps' the other. However, I reckon this case is interesting in that one can argue that all four principles are in play here.

Beneficence: do good to your patient.
These doctors need to remember that their patient is the woman sitting in front of them - not the small chance of a potential patient that may result from a rape.

Non-malificence. 'Harm' can be both mental and physical: being judged and treated with distain when feeling vulnerable constitutes harm. This is not just relevant in rape cases. All exams of this type make you feel vulnerable. (Even if you want to make the case that an 'unborn child' will be harmed, surely more harm/potential pain will result in a later termination than an early one via emergency contraception?) Waiting until septicaemia sets in before aborting an unviable pregnancy is simply unforgivable: for both mother and foetus. The mother's life is at risk. Also, allowing the foetus to develop as long as possible (and thus making it more likely that they can feel pain) simply to satisfy some catholic 'double effect' notion – this reasoning makes me feel truly sick.

Autonomy: this is where the bottom of the barrel is really being scraped. You increase the autonomy of the patient by informing them of all of the options available: not just those that you feel are morally permitted by your favourite deity.

Justice: how is it just that women can receive a different level of care from different hospitals, while either paying for their treatment directly or indirectly via their taxes?

Any doctor who feels themselves unable to act in accordance with these principles, for whatever reason, needs only to refer a patient to a doctor that can.

N.B. I am not a doctor myself (I learnt the above when studying applied moral philosophy) so I would be interested in what any actual doctors/medical professionals on here think about this, and whether they feel the doctors mentioned above are in breach of their oath/training?

I'm thinking yes. Anyone want to convince me otherwise?

Other Comments by Corylus

14. Comment #51381 by scottishgeologist on June 22, 2007 at 2:27 pm

 avatarJust wondering about the name. this guys name is "MArtin Gish". Gish is not exactly common. Is he in any way related to Duane Gish the prominent creationist?

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

15. Comment #51382 by LeeLeeOne on June 22, 2007 at 2:28 pm

 avatarCorylus, comment #13

You have it right.

Not most, but there are a number of physicians (MD, PhD, DO included) which includes researchers forget any form of humanity.

Physicians, heal thy selves.

Do NO harm! Which means DO NO HARM to the person sitting in front of you, not sitting in the next room, down the block, across the country, or any possibly imagined supernatural world.

Other Comments by LeeLeeOne

16. Comment #51388 by icanus on June 22, 2007 at 3:04 pm

"Doctors are people, too," she adds. "We have to be able to leave the hospital and live with ourselves. If you feel in your heart an action would cause harm to somebody — born or unborn — it's legitimate to decline to participate."


Fine by me. Leave the Hospital, decline to participate. Just don't forget to hand in your medical licence on the way out.

Other Comments by icanus

17. Comment #51398 by Celandine on June 22, 2007 at 4:00 pm

Absolutely appalling.

If a doctor -- or anyone, for that matter -- has a conscience that won't permit him or her to carry out the requirements of the profession, then that person should resign. Plain and simple.

And as has been noted already, if this weren't about denying care to WOMEN, but to e.g. blacks, or Muslims, or what have you, you can bet that this sort of behavior would be smacked down immediately as illegal.

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18. Comment #51414 by woollybear on June 22, 2007 at 5:56 pm

 avatarWow. This article has made me more pissed off than anything I've read on this site. This is another example of declining standards in the U.S. People who put their particular religious beliefs above their patients' needs are not qualified to practice medicine. It's not about what the doctor feels is morally right or wrong, it's about what's medically best for the patient.

What arrogance on the part of those doctors! It's patronizing and condescending to women to be treated that way. Unfortunate that some of those doctors are women as well.

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19. Comment #51424 by troyreynolds86 on June 22, 2007 at 10:19 pm

If these particular doctors wish to refuse a particular procedure, and our legislatures create laws to hold up that "right", then fine, there are ways in which such priviledges should be practiced. First and foremost, when a patient visits a doctor the patient, entering into a relationship of trust with a learned professional, should have a right to any ideological restrictions the doctor may have pertaining to the available and legal treatments. The doctors, as my solution would have it, should provide a detailed list of procedures that they cannot perform for any reason. These lists should be public knowledge, available by request, posted in the hospital so that the patient can read and decide if this doctor is the right fit for him or her, especially her as women are exponentially more effected by this, long before that doctor has access to the patient. If a patient is taked to an available hospital in an emergency or is restricted, by any circumstances, in option of hospitals, and the hospital or doctor refused an otherwise typical treatment for ideological reasons, it is a failing of the hospital to meet the needs of the patient, and the hospital, being the perpetrator of the failing or the employer of the perpetrator, should be bound by law to transport, if permitted by the health of the patient, to a facility that can and will perform all available medical procedures. It is not the fault of the patient that the doctor finds certain procedures unethical, it is the fault of the doctor and the patient should not suffer for it. This being said, all care given by the initial hospital, as well as the transportation, should be provided pro bono as it qualifies as a failing of the hospital to meet the needs of the patient, not the failings of the patient for having lack of choice.

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20. Comment #51436 by kamisama on June 22, 2007 at 11:54 pm

Many readers' responses to the problems described in this article seem to be that the physicians should not refuse treatment. But what if religious demands were made of non-religious physicians? Consider the various forms of genital mutilations that religions have been espousing. I wouldn't want to hash up some kid's genitals simply because the parents weren't happy with how their child was born; I probably wouldn't even refer them to a doctor who would do it. I'd want to send them away and tell them to not come back (but due to laws regarding patient abandonment, that's probably not an option). Now consider what should happen if a religious ritual could be non-religiously justified. What if research done in Africa (to get around human-research ethics committees) "proved" that FGM could reduce rates of HIV infection? Should physicians be forced to participate in religious rituals simply because they have been recast in a medical setting?

What about "unnecessary" treatments? Cosmetic surgeries on kids who have been coerced by their parents to agree? Drugs known to be ineffective against a particular ailment (antibiotics for viral infections)? Tests unlikely to reveal anything not already known or suspected by the doctor? Etc.

The proposal made in another comment that doctors should keep lists of procedures they will not perform seems like a good idea. The only problem I see is the lists may interfere with physicians' abilities to treat patients. It could open up a new industry: software designed specifically to manage the lists in a manner that complies with regulations.

The accompanying idea that doctors should provide transportation for services they do not provide is less reasonable. Here are a couple examples of patients "restricted, by any circumstances" of "an "otherwise typical treatment for ideological reasons":

* Some physicians decide to treat only people under a certain age. So this doctor will give a Td shot to that kid, but won't give it to the 80-year-old -- age discrimination.

* Many surgeons probably refuse (or should refuse) to amputate off people with body integrity identity disorder. They'll amputate the guy who doesn't want to lose his leg, but not the guy who doesn't want the leg. Lifestyle discrimination?

Maybe we'll sort this out in a few hundred years.

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21. Comment #51438 by Corylus on June 23, 2007 at 1:02 am

 avatar Kamisama
But what if religious demands were made of non-religious physicians?

That is an interesting point, but I don't think that the example you pick works:
What if research done in Africa (to get around human-research ethics committees) "proved" that FGM could reduce rates of HIV infection? Should physicians be forced to participate in religious rituals simply because they have been recast in a medical setting?

Re FGM reducing the rates of HIV infections. Well, you could argue both ways here. If African countries it might actually be increasing infection i.e. cross contamination of unsterilized "instruments" (remember some babies are born HIV positive) or it might reduce infections by reducing sexual intercourse (nothing like getting your ***** sewn up to stop that!)

However, this argument is a bit like saying that 'supergluing ones knees together prevents pregnancy'. It is the lack of unprotected sex that prevents pregnancy.

There is a difference between ultimate and proximate causation: and doctors need to be taught about this in their training. This way they can not only treat effectively, but also evaluate journal articles critically.
What about "unnecessary" treatments? Cosmetic surgeries on kids who have been coerced by their parents to agree? Drugs known to be ineffective against a particular ailment (antibiotics for viral infections)? Tests unlikely to reveal anything not already known or suspected by the doctor? Etc.

Actually, you can look at this question in light of the four principles I talked about above doctors can refuse all of the above without recourse to any religious reasoning. Unnecessary treatment is covered under non-malificence. N.B cosmetic surgery on children may be permissible if it increases their autonomy later in life. We treat cleft palates (not just for aesthetic reasons) but because, they cause speech problems and autonomy is increased by being about to communicate.
Many surgeons probably refuse (or should refuse) to ampute off people with body integrity identity disorder. They'll amputate the guy who doesn't want to lose his leg, but not the guy who doesn't want the leg. Lifestyle discrimination?

This is covered under the principle of justice. Resources are finite, amputating a healthy limb when there are gangrenous ones waiting to be chopped off, is thus unjustified.

There is no reason to bring God/religion into ethics, it is at best superfluous, in general it leads to sloppy thinking, and at worse it leads to hideous actions.

You are right, this is a hugely complicated subject. However, I completely stand by my view that treatment in the cases above should not have been refused; and for doctors to do so is a breach of both their oaths and their ethical training.

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22. Comment #51446 by Jonathan Dore on June 23, 2007 at 1:29 am

Medical schools should screen students for beliefs that would prevent them doing their job properly as doctors, and politely suggest to such people that they find another line of work. And if a doctor develops a supernatural delusion later in life in such a way as to bring on this peculiar obsession with controlling women's sexuality, they should be disbarred -- not for their religion, since many such doctors nevertheless manage to maintain a sense of proportion and do the right thing in spite of their faith's teachings -- but because they have rendered themselves unfit to perform their jobs properly. Depending on how long they've been practising beforehand, they should also be required to repay a portion of the costs of their wasted medical training, so the money can be recycled to other, hopefully more worthy applicants.

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23. Comment #51552 by The Wee Flea on June 23, 2007 at 11:09 am

This IS a very complicated subject - but not to the fundamentalists who want to impose their atheistic morality on everyone else. 'screen doctors' who don't accept your view of morality?! How totalitarian is that? If medicine was left to atheists and secularists then we would be in a pretty poor state (unless of course you persuaded them to do 'their job' by giving them whacking great salaries and allowed them to exploit their scientific knowledge by making a profit out of human sickness - oops forgot. Secular capitalism already got there!).

As for doctors oaths - you do of course realise that the Hippocratic oath forbids abortion?

And as for the person who cited Hitchins - am I not right in saying that he is opposed to abortion?

kamisama - thanks for your post. An oasis of reason in a desert of prejudice!

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24. Comment #51555 by bluebird on June 23, 2007 at 11:36 am

 avatarS.O.S.
Au contraire, thorns in a bed of roses.
As I stated in another thread, women want control of their reproductive issues ( in reference to the article). This includes contraceptives, EVERYTHING. Shame on anyone past and present who has ever embarrassed, or hindered girls/women who tried to exert control of their bodies.

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25. Comment #51558 by Robert Maynard on June 23, 2007 at 11:50 am

 avatar
This IS a very complicated subject - but not to the fundamentalists who want to impose their atheistic morality on everyone else.
Impose what, exactly? "Atheistic morality", insofar as it should be considered as something separate from 21st century moral philosophy (it shouldn't), is not an imposition on anyone. It holds the simplest precept in the Hippocratic oath paramount - "do no harm", better phrased as "suffering sucks - help each other avoid it".

It is literally free of any impositions precisely because it is a system which (at its core) seeks and encourages the freedom and happiness of all individuals, and guards against actions which visit suffering on others. I cannot see why you consider the guarantee of personal liberties an imposition.

When a physician denies any treatments based on personal beliefs, he is imposing his beliefs onto his patients, and he is clearly and unambiguously 'doing harm' by refusing to give them what they want. A doctor is certainly encouraged to use his medical training to provide a patient with expert perspective on any situation if he is concerned the patient is making an uninformed or poor decision. But at the end of the day, so long as the patient understands what they are doing, anything less than serving that patient is an unethical imposition.

In other words, I think your claim that -
if medicine was left to atheists and secularists then we would be in a pretty poor state
really makes no sense at all. I don't understand what you're basing it on.

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26. Comment #51565 by Quetzalcoatl on June 23, 2007 at 12:07 pm

 avatarWee Flea- as a minister you might know this- where in the Bible does it forbid abortion and birth control? Just want to know where they get this position from.

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27. Comment #51566 by Corylus on June 23, 2007 at 12:10 pm

 avatar Wee Flea

Have you read Godless Morality: Keeping Religion out of Ethics. By Richard Holloway? A bishop I believe from your neck of the woods…

If yes what did you think of it? I admit it was a couple of years back that I read it (so I am willing to have my memory refreshed), but if I recall correctly it was an interesting work by a non-secularist arguing that religion actually muddies the waters of ethical theory…

I have to say; as someone who has actually read this; that I am a tad peeved at your accusation that we are all a bunch of atheistic fundamentalists unable to listen to the religious people.

I myself will listen, and I debate politely with anyone who wishes to talk to me: as long as they are polite in return and demonstrate both a willingness to listen and common humanity.

If this proviso makes me an atheistic fundamentalist who wishes to impose their morality on everyone else, then I can only say… Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

PS. Yes I am aware that the original Hippocratic Oath forbids abortion, interestingly enough it also states the following…
I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfil according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant…

Would you like this nice pagan bit kept too?

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28. Comment #51599 by Zaphod on June 23, 2007 at 5:08 pm

 avatarThis Doctor (all though I hate to call him that) did not put the patients rights first. He put his own religious views a head of a patient. She should take the to court. I am unsure of the legality in America of such things but still. This is fucking ridiculous.

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29. Comment #51609 by MelM on June 23, 2007 at 5:56 pm

Part of a long list of items in religion's "culture of misery."

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30. Comment #51638 by kamisama on June 23, 2007 at 11:02 pm

Treatment should not have been denied to the patients described in the article. However, requiring physicians to hold particular beliefs or perform particular treatments is a poor solution to the problem. Religious preferences would inevitably sneak onto the list of required treatments.

Requiring doctors to advise patients of all options isn't a particularly great idea either. Facing a particular direction while praying and eating dust gathered from some holy place might be an option instead of having an abortion, but being required to advise patients of that option seems silly. How about a real example: Doctors in the US do not advise patients about BCG vaccine. The CDC does not recommend BCG vaccine, nor can patients easily obtain it without leaving the country. People who become infected are screened, quarantined, and drugged. Does it make sense to advise patients to leave the country to get BCG vaccine because it might help them avoid ever having to go through a lengthy quarantine and drugging process someday?

Corylus mentioned a number of principles. I do like them, and I have collected a similar set of principles. A big problem, though, is principles tend to have many exceptions that complicate their use so that they may be applied in ways originally unintended. Some parents choose to not vaccinate their children because they wish to avoid doing harm to already healthy children. Many extend "do no harm" to "prevent future harm". On the one hand, vaccines. On the other, women who possess a number of breast cancer genes might wish to avoid going through the ordeal of having breast cancer by having double mastectomies. (Such women should see a psychologist; right now.)

Some doctors who decide not to treat patients on religious grounds may be abusing principles. They may have the well-being of their patients' eternal souls in mind.

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31. Comment #51643 by kamisama on June 23, 2007 at 11:34 pm

Corylus:

Parents request and coerce their kids into getting unnecessary cosmetic surgeries all the time. Doctors perform them. I wouldn't. Some are good candidates for a list of required treatments if ever one were made.

Amputating healthy tissue happens all the time too.

As for body integrity identity disorder (BIID), people with BIID have successfully convinced doctors to amputate them. I would make sure the patient visited a psychologist or psychiatrist then insist that the mental health professional help the patient find another doctor if they think the BIID afflicted person could be helped only by amputation. I don't actually think like this, but here are some arguments in favor of amputation of people with BIID:
  • A beneficence argument: People with BIID suffer psychologically. If they cannot be helped by a psychologist or psychiatrist, their suffering can be alleviated by physical amputation.

  • A non-malefience argument: By not amputating the person with BIID, we cause that person to suffer further mental anguish. In effect, we are torturing that person by refusing to amputate.

  • An autonomy argument: People with BIID feel that possessing certain limbs prevents them from being the people they should be. They feel incomplete. By amputating them, we allow them to become the people they were meant to be.

  • A justice/resource argument: People with BIID will go to great lengths to lose limbs. They will injure themselves and risk the loss of their lives to lose limbs. The doctors will do everything possible to save those limbs. When the doctor is "successful" and the patients have completed lengthy recoveries, the cycle begins again. The BIID affected people again seek injuries that may result in the loss life or limb. Thus tremendous resources are expended over time trying to save unwanted limbs -- preventing physicians from helping people who want to keep their limbs. Thus, if a person with BIID cannot be psychiatrically treated, removing unwanted limbs prevents the loss of resources that might be needed to help someone else.

  • The four principles are in agreement, therefore BIID people deserve to have what they want -- amputation.



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32. Comment #51645 by Robert Maynard on June 23, 2007 at 11:41 pm

 avatar
They may have the well-being of their patients' eternal souls in mind.
A physician's expertise simply does not extend to metaphysical concepts. I can't say it any simpler - they don't teach that in medical school - it isn't medicine. In this regard the doctor is no better than a layperson in terms of information, yet they are exercising an experts level of authority. Advice that enters 'eternal soul' territory has explicitly left the doctors expert purview, and they are authoritatively speaking about things no one could possibly know - including existence after death. This is.. highly unethical.

If there are any metaphysical beliefs a doctor should respect, it is those of the patient. Doctors are not priests, and they do not treat unwell "souls" - they treat unwell bodies.

EDIT: I realise you were addressing Corylus about 'options', but your counter-argument makes no sense. A doctor is encouraged to use his medical training to provide a patient with expert perspective on any situation, especially if he is concerned the patient is making an uninformed or poor decision. That's their job.
The first paragraph should have dealt with that dust eating nonsense, but let's turn to the second one.
In your example of the tuberculosis vaccine, if the doctor did not "screen, quarantine and drug" the patient according to national policy, he would be betraying his own expert perspective, as he is surely breaking some rules and endangering others by recommending they leave the country.

To draw this out in comically bizarre fashion, if there were an ebola vaccine in another country, which was not endorsed or stocked by their own country, it would be the purest criminal idiocy for a doctor to recommend that an ebola-infected patient should leave expert care and try to reach that cure by their own means.

"You have tuberculosis/ebola? My advice - leave this hospital and GET ON THE NEXT PLANE out of here. Just.. try not to cough."

Ethical responsibilities don't end with the individual patient. Doctors aren't like criminal defense attorneys, who must always work in the best interests of their client, even when these interests are in direct opposition to those of the public at large (defending a known murderer, for example). If a doctor recommended a potentially terminally infectious individual leave professional care, and increase their potential sphere of transmission, he or she would be the worst doctor ever. It is no more a legitimate "option" than suggesting murder as a source of organs needed for transplanting.

That was such a stupid example, kamisama, honestly.

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33. Comment #51687 by Corylus on June 24, 2007 at 5:24 am

 avatar Kamisama

Thanks for replying. I am really glad to see that you agree that:
Treatment should not have been denied to the patients described in the article.

Strikes me that there are two questions here that you might want to address:-

1)What is the nature of the patient's problem?

It is the doctor's job to treat the disease/malaise/illness with which they are presented (a point so blindingly obvious that it is often ignored). It is not the job of the doctor to treat the symptoms only; the original illness will only re-manifest itself. (Ok with palliative care this is unavoidable, but that it a separate point.)

With BIID when amputating are you treating the symptom or the illness? Will the illness re-manifest with further amputation requests? I would suggest yes. Re your attempt to justify amputation via the four principles of medical ethics: good try. Unfortunately this falls down spectacularly with the principle of autonomy: if you pardon the disturbing mental image :) How on earth will having a leg removed increase your autonomy?? Won't exactly help you get about will it?

In any event you are presenting a false dichotomy here. The doctor's choice are not limited to either amputating or allowing a patient to injure themselves, there is the further choice of psychiatric admission to consider.

This is further born out in your discussion of women with cancer genes considering mastectomies. You say that you would send then to a psychologist. Why? They are not mentally ill; indeed to be unconcerned about this situation might be a symptom of mental illness. I would instead send them to a statistician – so they can have idea of the level of risk they actually face – and can made an informed decision accordingly. The job of the doctor is to help patients make choices, not make their choices for them.

This brings me to my next question:

2) What actions / advice is it within the remit of the doctor to give or provide?

I would say that it is not within a doctor's remit to play God. It is the doctor's job to provide a service to the patient. It is the doctor's job to treat the body, and to treat the patient NOT themselves. You note,
Some doctors who decide not to treat patients on religious grounds may be abusing principles. They may well have the well being of the patient's eternal souls in mind.

(Bracketing for a moment the question of whether such things exist). Have you considered the possibility that the 'eternal souls' for which these doctors are showing such solicitude are not actually those of the patient?

To conclude, I did not argue that requiring 'physicians to hold particular beliefs' was a solution to the ethical dilemmas in medicine. My argument is simply that doctors need to be able to reason clearly in order to work through problems. A doctor may hold any religious view they choose: that is completely their right. I am not denying that they may be capable of making good decisions.

For example in the case above they might take the view that treatment is justified because they may have read St. Augustine's view on the non-culpability of rape victims. Fine. They may well have a religious reason for desiring a particular course of action, however, they also need to be able to make a case for this action that stands or falls on its own merits. Bringing religion into ethics merely 'multiplies entities unnecessary'. You simply don't need it.

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34. Comment #51697 by hightrekker on June 24, 2007 at 6:53 am

It is just common wisdom--
Don't let a Cabbage for Christ give you medical care--
Delusion and superstition cannot be compartmentalized--
it permeates all the sick, meme addled, simpletons--
Stay away from primitives.

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35. Comment #51722 by ghostbuster on June 24, 2007 at 10:44 am

How about public-private systems? Doctors employed by a secular government provide the treatments as per their job description. You don't like it, set up a private clinic. Much of this is also hinging on moral relativity, that being that all morality is equally moral because of cultural beliefs--not only those based on religion, but on tradition---you see this in the practice of folklore medicine, most of it being "lore", and in Canada, the new Health Directorate now allows the practice of usless and dangerous alternative medicines under the guise of "cultural sensitivties". Science and rationality have been usurped by belief, however non-rational they may be. People are always "screened" during job interviews or even upon reading a resume. No need to get all conspiracy about it, or big brotherly. It is not big brotherly to request standards of job suitability, and if your religious belief does not allow you to perform the job description as outlined, then one either sets up their own business or moves on. What are we moving towards---postmen who won't deliver "questionable" mail, whatever they may find "questionable"? Garbagemen who won't pick up "qestionable" garbage? Journalists who won't write about something because it might be offensive (to them or others)?
If everyone's sensibilities are taken into account for every damned decision on the job, then nothing is ever going to get done.

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36. Comment #51760 by kamisama on June 24, 2007 at 6:05 pm

None of what I write is meant to imply that anyone holds any particular beliefs.

The overall theme of my comments seems to have been understood and taken: Denial of care by medical practitioners is a complicated issue with no simple solution.

There are probably better examples I could have used, if only I knew about them. My experiences are limited.

Some of the examples I use are purposefully strange. The reader is meant to think they are strange, that doctors should not be required to act in accord with them, and thus that forcing doctors to meet particular criteria about beliefs and behavior is probably not such a good idea. Further, do you trust that the lists of required beliefs and actions will only include beliefs and actions that we would agree with?

The realm within which a doctor operates is quite broad. Is it within a physician's responsibility to attempt to ensure that expectant parents are properly prepared to raise their child? How parents treat children affects the health of those children. There are shaken baby syndrome, SIDS, car seat safety, stroller safety, and other child-care issues that can lead to a child's injury or death. These are concerns for the physician.

The religion of the parents may be a concern of the physician's because parents' religions affect how they treat and raise children. FGM occurs primarily within the context of religion. Patients' religions may also affect how they treat themselves. It definitely affects how they feel about themselves. A person's mental well-being is at least within the realm of psychology.

Should physicians force their own religion on others? Just as parents should not force their religions on their children, physicians should not force their religion on patients. But patients also should not force their religions on physicians. There's a line to draw regarding what patients and doctors are willing to do. Ideally, it should be drawn before doctors and patients begin a professional relationship; often it is not. In some cases, such as emergency rooms, it cannot be.

As for the remark about the well-being of the patient's soul, that was written in jest. I have heard similar remarks made seriously so I understand that it might not have been well-received

Another common problem is the denial of care caused by the refusal of insurance companies to pay for treatments that physicians, patients, and just about everyone else agrees are necessary. Solving the insurance problem may lead to solutions to religious issues as a side-effect.

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37. Comment #51761 by kamisama on June 24, 2007 at 6:06 pm

Following are some clarifications:

Regarding vaccination in other countries, I did not mean that people should be sent off to other countries to get vaccines that are not generally available in the US. The point was that telling patients of ALL options is not necessarily a good idea.

The purpose of vaccines is prevention. Vaccines are given to healthy people. Once someone has a disease, vaccines are useless. Anyone who got infected with TB would be quarantined and drugged. Quarantine ends when the drugs take hold; then drugging continues for about a year. The long treatment course for TB has resulted in poor compliance that has led to outbreaks in families and communities. Countries where TB is a greater problem vaccinate against it. The CDC does not recommend against BCG, it simply does not recommend for it (except for certain high-risk populations). If TB became a major problem in the US, vaccination with BCG would probably become more common. Here's a CDC webpage about BCG; feel free to click around: http://www.cdc.gov/tb/pubs/tbfactsheets/bcg.htm

As for BIID affected people, I did mention psychiatric care and stated that the analysis assumed failure of the psychiatrists to alleviate the problem. Of course if psychiatric care worked, the person would no longer need amputation. Maybe I misunderstood the autonomy principle. I don't really care to find a better argument in that category in favor of people with BIID because I do not sympathize with them. (I read an article a while back about someone with the problem who had gotten a doctor to agree to amputate her legs. The article implied that the way BIID people are treated is somehow the same as how homosexuals and other minorities have been treated. In a way it made sense, but -- it just doesn't seem right.)

Part of a doctor's duties is to help patients understand the risks and consequences of the decisions they are making. So the doctor is supposed to serve the role a statistician might serve. I suppose I made an assumption that the woman with the cancer genes was being stubborn, unreasonable, and demanding about wanting the mastectomies that the doctor no longer felt further discussion would be productive.

A woman with a breast cancer gene might feel victimized by her disposition and feel that having double mastectomies would allow her to seize control. Psychologists are not just about mental illnesses. They also help people cope with situations and generally feel better about themselves. In the end though, it would be up to such a woman to decide what she wants done and to convince a doctor to agree with her.

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38. Comment #51768 by Robert Maynard on June 24, 2007 at 8:01 pm

 avatarFair enough and understood.

As to your analogy being about why discussing 'ALL' options is not a good idea, I think it's fairly clear that the concept of "all options" is to be taken with moderation, and with respect for the confines of financial practicalities and civil law. As I suggested before, there are many solutions to any given problem which exist in the realm of physical possibility, but a lot of them should not be considered practical or legitimate options. The principle of 'advising patients on all options' obviously involves some measure of common sense.

Discussing how doctors should handle ethics from situation to situation obviously grows to become a 'complicated issue', as does any issue when put under a microscope.
However, I do not agree that denial of care on the grounds of personal beliefs is a complicated issue. If the situation is taking place in the "First World", it's really no big deal - it's free enterprise, if a doctor decides not to offer a service, it should be okay - someone else will. Just say "screw that noise!" and go to another doctor who will care for you.
If it is in the developing world, or any situation where there is a scarcity of available doctors, say due to financial difficulties, it's basically unacceptable. Someone basically needs to dismiss those guys and replace them with better doctors. That's really all there is to it. Carrying out that solution is likely to be more complicated than stated, but the answer to the situation is straightforward.

As for confusing vaccines with cures... *smacks forehead*

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39. Comment #51769 by phasmagigas on June 24, 2007 at 8:05 pm

 avatarits incredible the difference being the carrier of the larger gamete makes to humans. Its actually very scary to think that some doctors could be ultra religious nutcases and could well be happy to harm women in some cases, far fetched? I'm not sure.

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40. Comment #51770 by phasmagigas on June 24, 2007 at 8:12 pm

 avatarI was thinking a while back that its not wise to inadvertently tell the doctor your non belief (if your doctor said god willing, and you siad 'not my thing' or something like that), now call this paranoia, but here in the states im not convinced on the doctors impartiality to your best interests and after reading this im even less sure.

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41. Comment #51792 by Corylus on June 25, 2007 at 1:26 am

 avatar Kamisama

Thanks for clarifying: as I said before this is hugely complicated subject. You are right, medical ethics is full of very tricky problems.

If you are really interested in the subject of religion impacting upon doctor's actions, can I recommend the following article on here:

http://richarddawkins.net/article,577,Grief-Without-God,Carol-A-Fiore

This is about an atheist woman who had to deal with doctors giving her a guilt trip about not praying for her terminally ill husband. (Another article that made me very cross indeed).

It appears that there are:

a) doctors who don't believe in God (atheist/agnostic)
b) doctors that believe in God (theist)
c) doctors who think they know the mind of God (arrogant theists)
d) doctors that act as though they are God (generally arrogant theists, but I do admit that this category sometimes includes arrogant atheists) and finally
e) doctors who think they are God (nominally theists, but really just arrogant fuckwits)

a) and b) I can deal with: the rest can go spin.

Excuse the profanity above, but I believe in using the most fitting terms to describe things/people!

Again, thanks for clarifying :)

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42. Comment #51803 by Philip1978 on June 25, 2007 at 4:40 am

 avatarKamisama,

Very interesting point, my only response is that these doctors should have thought about where they wanted to work in order that they could do their best work. If they are uncomfortable in encountering situations like this, why bother signing up for it?

David, can I please ask you to stop using the word fundamentalist, I have asked before and I will ask again. None of us here are fundamentalists for the one reason that no matter how passionate we are about issues like this, we can change our minds with better evidence provided. I know some responses are more passionate than others but I think you have got it wrong and I would like you to stop. I think the reason why people are so angry here is the needless distress inflicted on people who have suffered greatly.

My friend was raped when I was at university and I can tell you its the most horrifying thing I have ever been told. My heart is still broken by the fact that I lost the group she was with that night and I had to go home, I don't blame myself but there will always be that part of me that thinks I could have been at that club and got her home safely.

The insult in these stories is that instead of help and advice they were made to feel worse in what I would describe as one of the most psychologically terrifying and painful event anybody could witness or be part of. People have a lot of trust in doctors and to be let down in this way is horrible.

You are right in saying this a complicated situation but please understand where I am coming from on this, I am not being angry, fundamentalist or clinging to my atheism to talk my way out of this. I type this as someone who has witnessed what happened to someone after the event and I that all I can do now is be there for them.

Doctors should be more professional than what is described above, people should not suffer on behalf of another's religion

Other Comments by Philip1978

43. Comment #51828 by logical on June 25, 2007 at 7:18 am

 avatarOnly problem with the article is the use of the religious propaganda term "pro-life".
They are abortion-etc.-forbidders, they are NOT for anybody!

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44. Comment #51833 by pewkatchoo on June 25, 2007 at 7:56 am

 avatarRobert Maynard
But wee flea is an expert in the science of tossology don't you know. Can someone please recommend him to a good proctologist so that he can have his head removed from his fundament.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

45. Comment #51840 by I'mNotAlone on June 25, 2007 at 9:12 am

Not sure if anyone else has already asked this, but how does the religion of doctors affect their treatment of patients of other religions?
If they can be prejudicial against women like this, then couldnt they use the same 'God' trump card (or as in Monopoly, a get out of jail card)to refuse treatment and information to other faiths?

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46. Comment #51879 by Corylus on June 25, 2007 at 1:07 pm

 avatarPhilip

You're a complete gentleman. Not just for your post above, but for others also.

This is one of my rarest compliments.

Way rarer than: "You're fitter than I am"… but I have to say not quite as rare as: "Damn! You can drink me under the table" :)

Seriously: I mean it.

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47. Comment #51999 by No Faith on June 25, 2007 at 9:35 pm

The "standard of care" is evidence based medicine(i.e. well designed studies guiding practice). In the absence of conclusive evidence physicians should be excercising their judgement as to which therapies will offer the best outcome. A physicians personal religious or political views should not be entering into the process. In order for a physician to defend their choice of therapy (or lack thereof) it must be described only in terms of evidence. "It's against my religion" is not a valid evidence based argument.

Differentiation of emergency vs. elective care must be made. It is inappropriate to deny any emergency procedure (abortion when patients life at risk, emergency contraception) based on religious grounds but I think (as inconvenient as it is) that physicians should be able to refuse elective procedures as long as they provide assistance in obtaining a second opinion. A physician being forced to do something is unlikely to do it well.

Open declarations of "I can't do x because it is against my religion" should be met with censure by governing bodies. I acknowledge a physicians right to refuse as long as they provide assistance for a second opinion and keep their religious beliefs "in the closet". Physicians are within their rights to refuse on compentence or evidentiary grounds but outside dogma should not accepted as a valid reason.

Other Comments by No Faith

48. Comment #52013 by ridelo on June 25, 2007 at 11:47 pm

Maybe it would be a good idea that medical personnel would carry a big sign telling their religious stance so you could make your choice before they had the opportunity to fiddle with your body. ;-)

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49. Comment #52016 by kamisama on June 26, 2007 at 12:27 am

Although it may not be a good idea to tell a doctor about your (lack of) religion, I think it's appropriate to discuss the doctor's religion because it might affect the quality of the care you receive someday. You don't necessarily need to ask about it directly; bring it up while asking about hospital affiliations. "I understand this hospital is catholic; I heard that catholic hospitals do not provide these services. How do you provide those services for your patients? What do you think about the church's influence on hospital policies?" Then depending on the response, you may find out about options that may be more to your liking or that this doctor is not the right one for you.

Sometimes healthcare workers are unclear about hospital policies. I asked several employees of a catholic hospital about hospital policies regarding birth control and got a different answer from each one. I'm not picking on catholics; they just happen to own a very big hospital near me. I would also beware SDA-owned hospitals and Loma Linda graduates. There are some good SDA/LLU-grads, but many of the least moral/ethical people I've met are SDA and LLU-grads. Medical training at LLU includes mandatory religion classes, and I'm told by some of their graduates that LLU does receive government funding.

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50. Comment #52027 by Shuggy on June 26, 2007 at 1:12 am

 avatarWhat if a doctor decides for purely secular reasons that life begins at conception, or that human rights begin at conception? (I happen to disagree, but that's not relevant) While the Moral Zeitgeist is a good guide a lot of the time, it isn't all the time. There is a real dilemma here. (At the same time, these doctors seem to have behaved like Little Tin Gods.)

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