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Saturday, June 30, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Inferior Design: Richard Dawkins reviews Behe's lastest book

by Richard Dawkins

Reposted from the NYTimes:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/01/books/review/Dawkins-t.html?ref=review&pagewanted=all

I had expected to be as irritated by Michael Behe's second book as by his first. I had not expected to feel sorry for him. The first — "Darwin's Black Box" (1996), which purported to make the scientific case for "intelligent design" — was enlivened by a spark of conviction, however misguided. The second is the book of a man who has given up. Trapped along a false path of his own rather unintelligent design, Behe has left himself no escape. Poster boy of creationists everywhere, he has cut himself adrift from the world of real science. And real science, in the shape of his own department of biological sciences at Lehigh University, has publicly disowned him, via a remarkable disclaimer on its Web site: "While we respect Prof. Behe's right to express his views, they are his alone and are in no way endorsed by the department. It is our collective position that intelligent design has no basis in science, has not been tested experimentally and should not be regarded as scientific." As the Chicago geneticist Jerry Coyne wrote recently, in a devastating review of Behe's work in The New Republic, it would be hard to find a precedent.

For a while, Behe built a nice little career on being a maverick. His colleagues might have disowned him, but they didn't receive flattering invitations to speak all over the country and to write for The New York Times. Behe's name, and not theirs, crackled triumphantly around the memosphere. But things went wrong, especially at the famous 2005 trial where Judge John E. Jones III immortally summed up as "breathtaking inanity" the effort to introduce intelligent design into the school curriculum in Dover, Pa. After his humiliation in court, Behe — the star witness for the creationist side — might have wished to re-establish his scientific credentials and start over. Unfortunately, he had dug himself in too deep. He had to soldier on. "The Edge of Evolution" is the messy result, and it doesn't make for attractive reading.

We now hear less about "irreducible complexity," with good reason. In "Darwin's Black Box," Behe simply asserted without justification that particular biological structures (like the bacterial flagellum, the tiny propeller by which bacteria swim) needed all their parts to be in place before they would work, and therefore could not have evolved incrementally. This style of argument remains as unconvincing as when Darwin himself anticipated it. It commits the logical error of arguing by default. Two rival theories, A and B, are set up. Theory A explains loads of facts and is supported by mountains of evidence. Theory B has no supporting evidence, nor is any attempt made to find any. Now a single little fact is discovered, which A allegedly can't explain. Without even asking whether B can explain it, the default conclusion is fallaciously drawn: B must be correct. Incidentally, further research usually reveals that A can explain the phenomenon after all: thus the biologist Kenneth R. Miller (a believing Christian who testified for the other side in the Dover trial) beautifully showed how the bacterial flagellar motor could evolve via known functional intermediates.

Behe correctly dissects the Darwinian theory into three parts: descent with modification, natural selection and mutation. Descent with modification gives him no problems, nor does natural selection. They are "trivial" and "modest" notions, respectively. Do his creationist fans know that Behe accepts as "trivial" the fact that we are African apes, cousins of monkeys, descended from fish?

The crucial passage in "The Edge of Evolution" is this: "By far the most critical aspect of Darwin's multifaceted theory is the role of random mutation. Almost all of what is novel and important in Darwinian thought is concentrated in this third concept."

What a bizarre thing to say! Leave aside the history: unacquainted with genetics, Darwin set no store by randomness. New variants might arise at random, or they might be acquired characteristics induced by food, for all Darwin knew. Far more important for Darwin was the nonrandom process whereby some survived but others perished. Natural selection is arguably the most momentous idea ever to occur to a human mind, because it — alone as far as we know — explains the elegant illusion of design that pervades the living kingdoms and explains, in passing, us. Whatever else it is, natural selection is not a "modest" idea, nor is descent with modification.

But let's follow Behe down his solitary garden path and see where his overrating of random mutation leads him. He thinks there are not enough mutations to allow the full range of evolution we observe. There is an "edge," beyond which God must step in to help. Selection of random mutation may explain the malarial parasite's resistance to chloroquine, but only because such micro-organisms have huge populations and short life cycles. A fortiori, for Behe, evolution of large, complex creatures with smaller populations and longer generations will fail, starved of mutational raw materials.

If mutation, rather than selection, really limited evolutionary change, this should be true for artificial no less than natural selection. Domestic breeding relies upon exactly the same pool of mutational variation as natural selection. Now, if you sought an experimental test of Behe's theory, what would you do? You'd take a wild species, say a wolf that hunts caribou by long pursuit, and apply selection experimentally to see if you could breed, say, a dogged little wolf that chivies rabbits underground: let's call it a Jack Russell terrier. Or how about an adorable, fluffy pet wolf called, for the sake of argument, a Pekingese? Or a heavyset, thick-coated wolf, strong enough to carry a cask of brandy, that thrives in Alpine passes and might be named after one of them, the St. Bernard? Behe has to predict that you'd wait till hell freezes over, but the necessary mutations would not be forthcoming. Your wolves would stubbornly remain unchanged. Dogs are a mathematical impossibility.

Don't evade the point by protesting that dog breeding is a form of intelligent design. It is (kind of), but Behe, having lost the argument over irreducible complexity, is now in his desperation making a completely different claim: that mutations are too rare to permit significant evolutionary change anyway. From Newfies to Yorkies, from Weimaraners to water spaniels, from Dalmatians to dachshunds, as I incredulously close this book I seem to hear mocking barks and deep, baying howls of derision from 500 breeds of dogs — every one descended from a timber wolf within a time frame so short as to seem, by geological standards, instantaneous.

If correct, Behe's calculations would at a stroke confound generations of mathematical geneticists, who have repeatedly shown that evolutionary rates are not limited by mutation. Single-handedly, Behe is taking on Ronald Fisher, Sewall Wright, J. B. S. Haldane, Theodosius Dobzhansky, Richard Lewontin, John Maynard Smith and hundreds of their talented co-workers and intellectual descendants. Notwithstanding the inconvenient existence of dogs, cabbages and pouter pigeons, the entire corpus of mathematical genetics, from 1930 to today, is flat wrong. Michael Behe, the disowned biochemist of Lehigh University, is the only one who has done his sums right. You think?

The best way to find out is for Behe to submit a mathematical paper to The Journal of Theoretical Biology, say, or The American Naturalist, whose editors would send it to qualified referees. They might liken Behe's error to the belief that you can't win a game of cards unless you have a perfect hand. But, not to second-guess the referees, my point is that Behe, as is normal at the grotesquely ill-named Discovery Institute (a tax-free charity, would you believe?), where he is a senior fellow, has bypassed the peer-review procedure altogether, gone over the heads of the scientists he once aspired to number among his peers, and appealed directly to a public that — as he and his publisher know — is not qualified to rumble him.

Richard Dawkins holds the Charles Simonyi chair for the public understanding of science at Oxford. His most recent book is "The God Delusion."

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1. Comment #53244 by Robert Maynard on June 30, 2007 at 9:52 am

 avatarThe Rottweiler strikes again!

Other Comments by Robert Maynard

2. Comment #53246 by 72 Virgins, Pay up! on June 30, 2007 at 10:04 am

 avatarI watched Ken Miller's lecture on youtube regarding the evolution vs. intelligent design "contraversy". Even though it's very long and presented by a 'believing' scientist (how an obviously brilliant person reconciles his faith is beyond me), it's excellent and I'd recommend everyone watch it. It's a devastating exposure of I.D. as a sham. Here's the URL:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg

Other Comments by 72 Virgins, Pay up!

3. Comment #53248 by BillySands on June 30, 2007 at 10:23 am

 avatarI think highlighting the unscientific nature of ID is important. We see it so often here when trolls come on and say things like "(insert famous non bio-scientist of choice)" says life looks designed. Their arguements are more appeals to authority than anything real or threatening to science, bbut the public dont realise that.

Love the term "memosphere" I plan to use it in a dissmissive way at the first possible opportunity :-)

Other Comments by BillySands

4. Comment #53249 by Dr Benway on June 30, 2007 at 10:26 am

 avatarIf Behe were to admit the flaws in his argument, what would happen to him?

Perhaps he ought to wait until a sufficient number of fundies have bought his book before he says, "oops!"

Other Comments by Dr Benway

5. Comment #53250 by maton100 on June 30, 2007 at 10:31 am

 avatarYes, but what about the Michael Behe MiniPlex Minivan? It is irreducibly complex, my man.

http://thestubborncurmudgeon.blogspot.com

Other Comments by maton100

6. Comment #53251 by maton100 on June 30, 2007 at 10:41 am

 avatarBehe just got smoked.

Other Comments by maton100

7. Comment #53254 by D'Arcy on June 30, 2007 at 11:42 am

 avatarDawkins feels sorry for Behe because of the hole he has dug himself into. I don't worry about him, after all he's got the almighty on his side! Behe like so many other paid experts puts the point of view he's paid to do. I'm sure there are other scientists who do the same thing. Oil industry and global warming, pharming of drugs, spring to mind. He who pays the piper calls the tune.

It's nice to know that the irreducibly complex has been complexly reduced to zero!

Other Comments by D'Arcy

8. Comment #53257 by Donald on June 30, 2007 at 12:06 pm

Great article. RD is indefatigable in putting the message out.

I have no respect for BeeHee, and RD is quite right when he says BeeHee is retreating in desperation. The wolf example is good for discussing BeeHee's latest claims.

However, there is one point that RD understandably didn't make, and which BeeHee may well have. That is that evolution by random changes to genes in not, in itself, sufficient (in that time frame) to construct new genes to explain the varieties of dogs. The capabilities to build bodies of varying size, legs of varying size, hair of varying length, different shapes of head, ears, etc, etc, were essentially all present in the wolf when man started the evolution of domestication. The genomes of mammals contain a toolkit of genes for building a variety of bodies. That variety carries the imprint of successive evolutionary environments over hundreds of millions of years that, over time, selected for different characteristics. With characteristic economy, evolution found ways to choose gene sets that could be tweaked via control genes and minor mutations, rather than create radically different gene sets for each environment. So today, selective breeding is more about tweaks and turning on and off genes, or adjusting expression rates, than about waiting for new genes to be created (although new genes do still get created, that's a much slower process than "twiddling the knobs" within a multi-purpose gene set).

This does not invalidate anything in RD's article, but anyone who wants to follow discussions about mutation rates and gene construction may want to bear this in mind.

Of course, if I'm wrong about this, RD or others here will no doubt correct me. I'm not an evolutionary biologist.

Other Comments by Donald

9. Comment #53258 by PaulEmecz on June 30, 2007 at 12:09 pm

 avatarThis was a well-written article, and I now have little desire to read 'The Edge of Evolution'. Dr Dawkins is at his best when talking science. I wish he could write so clearly about some of the other areas that he seems to tackle so frequently. I would still like to hear him say, honestly and openly, "If morality means 'You should do one thing and you should not do another' then there is no such thing as morality". He says things like the existence of God is very, very unlikely, but then has no other explanation for the existence of this universe where intelligent life exists. He constantly criticises religious believers, but doesn't include Deists for some inexplicable reason.

Dr Dawkins, you are an intelligent man who can reason very clearly. Please answer the morality question once and for all, and explain to me why it's so wrong (or not!) to be a Deist.

Other Comments by PaulEmecz

10. Comment #53259 by kurzweilfreak on June 30, 2007 at 12:16 pm

The blatently obvious anti-evolution Discovery Institute blog Evolution News and Views (http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/06/sean_carroll_fails_to_scale_th_2.html) (which ironically includes a disclaimer at the bottom about existing only because of the biased reporting on evolution in the media) is quite a read, and you almost have to feel sorry for the ignorance displayed. Almost, because you shouldn't feel sorry for willful ignorance, which is what is displayed in each article on there.

One of the most telling aspects - to me - is the fact that unlike this messageboard and most blogs out there, there is no mechanism allowed for commenting on each article. This I suspect is deliberate, for if commenting were allowed, the flaws in each article would be readily pointed out, and they just can't allow that now could they? There isn't even so much as an email address on there to send comments directly to the author. Even if there were, would you expect them to be forthcoming and display corrections to their flaws in logic? What a crock. Overtly biased? Hypocritical aren't we? In any case, what's so biased about going with the facts?

Other Comments by kurzweilfreak

11. Comment #53260 by kaiserkriss on June 30, 2007 at 12:20 pm

 avatarGreat piece by Richard Dawkins.. His views or similar should have been part of the peer review process the scientific method prides itself upon. The publisher of Behe's book of nonsense has lost total credibility, and should stick to comic books or flyers in the future.

What kind of review process did Behe's book go through? None I would suspect.

D'Arcy: I find your comment rather broad brush and disingenuous, as well as insulting to the many good scientists working in the oil industry, and pharmaceutical industry who DO NOT prostitute their views to a particular cause. That some do not happen to agree with your views in an ongoing debate is not a good enough reason to insult the integrity of the majority of Scientists who are true to science for the sake of science and not to the almighty $. jcw

Other Comments by kaiserkriss

12. Comment #53264 by Dr Benway on June 30, 2007 at 12:31 pm

 avatarPaulEmecz:
"If morality means 'You should do one thing and you should not do another' then there is no such thing as morality".
Until God appears before us to speak for Himself, the theist has no advantage over the atheist with respect to "absolute morality."

Other Comments by Dr Benway

13. Comment #53265 by the great teapot on June 30, 2007 at 12:43 pm

PaulEmmecz
Are you a deist who does not believe in a personal god. Before I go further can you please answer that for me.

Other Comments by the great teapot

14. Comment #53266 by charlieallery on June 30, 2007 at 12:51 pm

 avatarDawkins shoots ... he scores!

One day soon, I hope to be able to write:
'They think it's all over...' *g*

Other Comments by charlieallery

15. Comment #53268 by CJ22 on June 30, 2007 at 1:04 pm

 avatarpwn3d

Other Comments by CJ22

16. Comment #53269 by Enlightenme.. on June 30, 2007 at 1:04 pm

 avatarPaul Emmecz,
Using the non-existence of objective morality to cling onto the a-humanist idea of a law-giver is one of the poorer reasons for supernaturalism.

The only vaguely credible reason left is the purpose-driven existential question.

All the other 'reasons' are rather ugly political ones which show the same disdain for humanity as the first.

Other Comments by Enlightenme..

17. Comment #53271 by seals on June 30, 2007 at 1:20 pm

 avatarHaha quite a demolition job - c'mon say what you really feel! If thats RD feeling sorry for Behe, what if it was no holds barred.... but then again, facts are facts.

I would not dare read Michael Behe's book, just in case I started remembering fragments of it without realising where I remembered them from. That's the danger of these non-information books.

Other Comments by seals

18. Comment #53273 by Patrick McArdle on June 30, 2007 at 1:33 pm

"He constantly criticises religious believers, but doesn't include Deists for some inexplicable reason."

"Personal qualities, whether pleasant or unpleasant, form no part of the deist god of Voltaire and Thomas Paine. [...] The deist god ... detonated what we would now call the hot big bang, retired and was never heard from again." (Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion, p. 38)

Dr Dawkins, you are an intelligent man who can reason very clearly. Please answer the morality question once and for all, and explain to me why it's so wrong (or not!) to be a Deist.

I'm not, by a long way, Mr. Dawkins, but the reason is very simple: the deist god created the universe, then "retired" &c. This god existed just to create the universe. If the universe has always existed, then it never had a creator, and we don't need to posit one. (Please note that Dr. Roger Penrose does not accept the "big bang" as the origin of our universe, just the start of the latest version of it.)

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19. Comment #53274 by kurzweilfreak on June 30, 2007 at 1:48 pm

As a Deist, how could you expect an answer on your question of morality if all your god did was start the universe? Me turning on a lightbulb would say just about as much on morality as would a god who only turned on the universe and then disappeared. To demand some morality of us, your god would have to stick around quite a bit longer.

Other Comments by kurzweilfreak

20. Comment #53275 by D'Arcy on June 30, 2007 at 1:48 pm

 avatarkaiserkriss (message 12), takes me to task for my comments in message 8:

D'Arcy: I find your comment rather broad brush and disingenuous, as well as insulting to the many good scientists working in the oil industry, and pharmaceutical industry who DO NOT prostitute their views to a particular cause. That some do not happen to agree with your views in an ongoing debate is not a good enough reason to insult the integrity of the majority of Scientists who are true to science for the sake of science and not to the almighty $. jcw


kaiserkriss is entirely right of course. The point I was making was that some scientists in general, and Behe in particular, dance to their paymaster's tune. The pressure to "succeed" in science is intense as we all know. The South Korean (name forgotten) guy who was faking the results in his lab, investigating human egg cells, is now discredited. IMHO he's an example of the pressure put on scientists to "achieve" or lose the grant. The saving grace of science is exactly in its ability to review and monitor its own progress by peer review. Science can change its viewpoint depending upon the facts.

To kaiserkriss, I'm just pointing out that not all scientists are knights in shining armour seeking the "truth"; they are human beings like you and me and subject to economic pressure.

Other Comments by D'Arcy

21. Comment #53276 by Sancus on June 30, 2007 at 1:49 pm

Interesting statement about the public in the final sentence.

Elsewhere, Christopher Hitchens was on Al Jazeera, of all places!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-3ZB_-dMaQ&NR=1

Other Comments by Sancus

22. Comment #53278 by Logicel on June 30, 2007 at 1:57 pm

 avatarFrom Newfies to Yorkies, from Weimaraners to water spaniels, from Dalmatians to dachshunds, as I incredulously close this book I seem to hear mocking barks and deep, baying howls of derision from 500 breeds of dogs — every one descended from a timber wolf within a time frame so short as to seem, by geological standards, instantaneous.

_______

The above is my favorite bit. Great review.

Other Comments by Logicel

23. Comment #53279 by Gordon Brown on June 30, 2007 at 2:14 pm

Wow! What a lacerating, devastating criticism of "Behe 2." Yet upon reading it I don't see how people come up with the canard that Dawkins' rhetoric is shrill and angry. It's just pointful and dead-on, that's all.

Paul Emecz (No. 10) writes:
I would still like to hear [Dawkins] say, honestly and openly, "If morality means 'You should do one thing and you should not do another' then there is no such thing as morality".

This view of morality is falsely dichotomous, and therefore I expect that Dawkins would never advocate for it—Dawkins is much better than that. You don't have to be a theist, or a deist, to realize that morality, if it's anything at all, is much more than a set of categorical imperatives. The field of morality (and of moral analysis more particularly) involves hypothetical imperatives, and prima facie rights and wrongs (i.e., rights and wrongs "at first face") which can be overridden by more pressing moral concerns. Then there's the relevance of moral dispositions of a person, and one's intentions when acting...the list goes on.
[Dawkins] says things like the existence of God is very, very unlikely, but then has no other explanation for the existence of this universe where intelligent life exists.

Time for a refresher course in TGD! Read Chapter 4, particularly pp. 134-151 (hardcover edition).

Other Comments by Gordon Brown

24. Comment #53283 by RickM on June 30, 2007 at 2:38 pm

 avatarBehe is a sick man; where does he go from here?

Other Comments by RickM

25. Comment #53285 by Mark Till on June 30, 2007 at 2:49 pm

 avatarHa ha ha! That's cheered me up no end. No one dismantles nonsense like RD. Cracking piece.

Other Comments by Mark Till

26. Comment #53286 by D'Arcy on June 30, 2007 at 2:52 pm

 avatarWhilst Behe himself would not approve, I'm sure that 500 years ago, most Christians would feel it their moral imperative to burn heretics at the stake. We should bear this attitude in mind when dealing with the "modern" Christians. The fact is that the discoveries of knowledge in general, and science in particular have forced all religions more and more onto their back foot.

The sniping of people like Behe, against the theory of evolution, shows the paucity of their ideas!

Other Comments by D'Arcy

27. Comment #53290 by ergaster on June 30, 2007 at 3:09 pm

 avatarI am reminded of the quote Richard uses in TGD, p. 154:
'Its author can be excused of dishonesty only on the grounds that before deceiving others he has taken great pains to deceive himself'.

Other Comments by ergaster

28. Comment #53291 by Canuck#1 on June 30, 2007 at 3:16 pm

 avatarYou are right on....a superb dismantling job of the author specifically and the ID approach generaly. However.....the "christian community" is a different story. Lavish praise for the author who has defended ID so well and puts nasty old Oxford professor in his place. Church libraries will have this book on prominent display.

Other Comments by Canuck#1

29. Comment #53292 by k1mgy on June 30, 2007 at 3:19 pm

 avatarBrilliant! And worth the wait. I had, when I read Behe's nasty little intro in Time Magazine, hoped fervently that Richard Dawkins would take him on. As Behe admonished from his Baable, "Concerning the big questions, the Bible advises us to be hot or cold but not lukewarm.". Stand back then 'cause here comes the heat.

Dawkins' book review read beautifully and for him the exercise must have been cathartic, perhaps a bit painful to add a little more soil to the self-made burial mound of one who was once a scientist. Mostly, Behe's book seems to have made the book review process easy.

Congratulations. Hopefully this one will sew up Behe's mouth for a while. The judge couldn't do it. Maybe another dose of the plain truth will.

Other Comments by k1mgy

30. Comment #53293 by Wrought on June 30, 2007 at 3:29 pm

Truly at his best when it comes to evolution and dispelling myths for the benefit of public understanding. My hat is off to him.

And I just want to say: "memosphere" is a great word.

Other Comments by Wrought

31. Comment #53294 by Nails on June 30, 2007 at 3:30 pm

 avatarBrilliant.
Absolutely brilliant.
Let's not forget that after the kicking Dr. Ken Miller gave him in Dover he has retracted many of ID's claims, and it would appear his last has been ripped apart.
Shredded.
With regards to morals, let's not forget how morals change with circumstance.
It is wrong to kill, but if your life or family is threatened, most of us will kill without second thought or much remorse.
So if we got our morals direct from god we would never steal, not even steal medicine to save someone dying.
Yet these morals allow drug manufacturers to be richer than tax collectors yet receive only a fraction of the hate the latter received 2000 years ago.

Other Comments by Nails

32. Comment #53299 by Jolly Wally on June 30, 2007 at 4:15 pm

Quite a thrashing. Good article!

Other Comments by Jolly Wally

33. Comment #53302 by Helios G2V on June 30, 2007 at 4:31 pm

 avatarCongratulations Professor on the continuing dismantling of ID.

If ID proves one thing it is the ability of the movement to adapt to the intellectual environment. A bit like Evolution by Natural Selection, which is fairly ironic.
While I think ID is being dismantled at a ferocious rate, we should bear in mind the movements adaptive abilities.

Is Behe's book part of a coordinated response to the 2005 drubbing at the hands of Judge John E Jones III?
Is there any coordinated effort on behalf of the ID movement? The Discovery Institute certainly doesn't dominate the headlines with any frequency.

It would seem that the ID movement is running out of time in the US with the impending Presidential elections. Assuming the Americans are fed up with the Republicans.
Is there much of a clue as to the American public's voting intentions?

Other Comments by Helios G2V

34. Comment #53303 by Donald on June 30, 2007 at 4:49 pm

PaulEmecz: I wish he [RD] could write so clearly about some of the other areas that he seems to tackle so frequently. I would still like to hear him say, honestly and openly, "If morality means 'You should do one thing and you should not do another' then there is no such thing as morality". [...]
Dr Dawkins, you are an intelligent man who can reason very clearly. Please answer the morality question once and for all, and explain to me why it's so wrong (or not!) to be a Deist.

In case you do not get a reply from RD, let me offer a few thoughts.

First, some of morality can be explained as a result of genetic evolution. Other animals have been shown to care for others in altruistic ways, behave cooperatively until cheated and then retaliate, share food, etc, etc. So it is clear that some of our morality is based on genes for behaviour. In particular, we feel good when we help others, and feel bad if we lie or cheat.

Second, moral codes in the sense of culturally transmitted rules (Dawkins would call them memes) are part of human culture, and deal with detail that is beyond the capability of genes to specify. But, as RD points out, moral codes change over time, and clearly are not primarily derived from the bible. They evolve along with language as a form of cultural evolution. So they can also be described as human invention.

Human invention does not mean that they are arbitrary, any more than the shape of a wheel is an arbitrary shape. Moral codes have evolved within human culture to jointly serve the self-interest of individuals and the communities in they live.

I think it troubles some people that without "god" morality is not absolute. Some people assume that if morality is not absolute, then people can do anything they like and everything is equal. This is nonsense, but it seems to be quite common. Morality without god is related to humanity as a whole. To get a well-informed judgement of self-interest for the individual requires some attention to the interests of the community in which that individual is embedded. To get a well-informed judgement of the self-interest of a community requires some attention to the relationship of that community to other communities, and the relationship of human communities to the environment, including other animals. In short, really high quality, enlightened, self-interest results in many of the same rules as the best that religion preach, but is not tied to ancient manuscripts, and is free to develop in parallel with increasing human and scientific knowledge.

Lastly, I think Dawkins does not suggest it is wrong to be a Deist. What he is trying to dispel are beliefs that have bad consequences for society. Beliefs in the god of the bible can be bad if the bible is taken literally as the word of that god. Beliefs that misinform children and block their learning about what science has established beyond reasonable doubt are particularly terrible, and are his main concern. People who believe that they know what "god" wants people to do, and everyone else has it wrong are always dangerous.
Deism of the create-and-run-away kind is more-or-less harmless.

You seem like a good person. If you ever come to the point where you have so much doubt about the reality of "god" that you are looking at what could possibly be an alternative, there is one. Similar approaches to those that religion offers can also be found in the humanist movement. It is possible to be moral, advocate morality, live a satisfying life, and help others, without believing in "god". That is what humanists do.

Other Comments by Donald

35. Comment #53304 by Martha on June 30, 2007 at 4:54 pm

 avatarReligion, just like corrupt politics, has been SAYING wonderful words for centuries. It is not mere words - but actions - that make a difference in the world. Richard Dawkins (et al) can SAY wonderful things - but its what he actually DOES each and every day is what makes the real difference to our world.

Other Comments by Martha

36. Comment #53305 by Shuggy on June 30, 2007 at 5:02 pm

 avatar
Single-handedly, Behe is taking on Ronald Fisher, Sewall Wright, J. B. S. Haldane, Theodosius Dobzhansky, Richard Lewontin, John Maynard Smith and hundreds of their talented co-workers and intellectual descendants. Notwithstanding the inconvenient existence of dogs, cabbages and pouter pigeons, the entire corpus of mathematical genetics, from 1930 to today, is flat wrong. Michael Behe, the disowned biochemist of Lehigh University, is the only one who has done his sums right.
This, taken by itself, is just an appeal to authority. Everyone could be out of step except our Michael, the next Galileo. (Coupled with his publishing outside the peer-review framework, and his other egregious errors, though...) but
You think?
does cap it off nicely, and deserves to enter the memosphere (another great neologism) as an alternative to "Yeah, right." and "Not."


CJ22:
pwn3d
I (amazingly) understand and heartily agree, but don't see how that's an improvement on "pwned", since in predictive mode, you'd just hit "3[def]" twice for e, and - on a Nokia - have to hit it 4 times or hold it down for 3. (Or is "pwnd" - since the 3 is silent - constantly running away from comprehensibility?)

Other Comments by Shuggy

37. Comment #53327 by Arcados on June 30, 2007 at 8:32 pm

"...as I incredulously close this book I seem to hear mocking barks and deep, baying howls of derision from 500 breeds of dogs..."

This is one of the funniest lines I've read in print in a while.

Other Comments by Arcados

38. Comment #53328 by marcdesm on June 30, 2007 at 8:35 pm

 avatarthank you Mr Dawkins for your fine work

Other Comments by marcdesm

39. Comment #53332 by Stephen on June 30, 2007 at 9:10 pm

Teehee! He mentioned my dog, Max, a Jack Russell!

Other Comments by Stephen

40. Comment #53335 by bouwe on June 30, 2007 at 9:16 pm

One thing I learned from this article is that the Discovery Institute has TAX-FREE STATUS!!! I must be so naive, but this is making me feel SICK. Does Scientology also have tax-free status in the USA? You guys are SCREWED.

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41. Comment #53342 by Dr Benway on June 30, 2007 at 9:46 pm

 avatarbouwe:
Does Scientology also have tax-free status in the USA? You guys are SCREWED.
Yes. Yes.

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42. Comment #53343 by Zaphod on June 30, 2007 at 9:49 pm

 avatarThey get charity status for trying to retard science. How that is legal I will never understand.

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43. Comment #53346 by bouwe on June 30, 2007 at 10:22 pm

Tax-free status for helping people to refuse to grow up in the universe. That's just great.

What about organisations that aid the teaching of (real) science? Does the Richard Dawkins Foundation have tax-free status, or is the teaching of real science seen as "proselytizing"? What about the NSCsomething (?) the main organization that stands up to the DI -- do they have tax-free status. Please tell me they do. PLEASE.

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44. Comment #53349 by The_Stone on June 30, 2007 at 11:00 pm

 avatarBehe is a living monument to the integrity of science. Modern Science allows all questions, but certainly not all answers in the rigor of time and relentless collection of data.

Mr. Behe, how do you feel about the murder and concealment of facts in the face of truth?

Persons such as you present not just misguided knowledge but a truly fascist angle into which the rest of civilization will descend if your corrupt thinking is not put at an end.

With your knowledge of the facts, you willfully misrepresent the facts, and misguide the masses who put their trust in the professional scientists to explore the facts and not impose their personal feelings. You've done everyone in our society a great disservice. What grotesque need forces such a person to overlook reality?

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45. Comment #53359 by Corylus on July 1, 2007 at 2:48 am

 avatarWow. What a review! Considering where it is published I am sure this will be read by many. Good thing too.

Disagree with one thing though. Pekineses are not adorable. They are bad-tempered,lazy, snarly little walking hearth rugs. They don's chase sticks or their tails, they won't play with a ball and they don't look like they are smiling like labradors do. Miserable little gits.

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46. Comment #53376 by phasmagigas on July 1, 2007 at 5:37 am

 avatarthat whole morality question, evolution explains it quite well, if an animal or human acted upon its every 'immoral' whim it would be reduced to a running, yelling, raping, masturbating, constantly eating, stealing whirling dervish of an organism, that esp within the confines of a society just couldnt be tolerated and even outside of a society would be extremely maladaptive, a praying mantis will sit there for days patiently waiting for a fly, it doesnt traverse the grassland just destroying/biting leaves and twigs for the fun of it (and in mantis world that could be seen as an immoral type of behaviour, a bit like damaging property), nature has imposed a certain set of behaviours on it and likewise with us.

The immoral whirling dervishes dont exist, and those that do come about are abruptly halted one way or another.

edit: actually the nearest example i can think of of the immoral whirling dervish is that (not uniquely) concept of the 'feral' child in the UK, the ones who terrorise people in their neighbourhoods, now im not sure that is a lack of godliness (and it might be!! as ive encountered less immoral whirling dervish kids in the USA than the UK)but a general lack of any control atall from parents, teachers and police.

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47. Comment #53378 by phasmagigas on July 1, 2007 at 5:45 am

 avatarits intersting how we have in effect bred wolf stock to produce animals that are highly grotesque/deformed in many instances, a pekingese without its fur would be a hideous utterly malformed version of a wolf (it is anyway its just that bald pekingese would be more obviously monstrous), the equivalent in our own species (admitteldy not to happen via any type of selection) would be viewed as an extreme medical curiosity.

When i see my adult dogs now playing its quite a revelation to imagine that with suffiecient selection (or maybe lack of it!!) the same thing could be happening to our own species, there are many adults who do continue juvenile behaviour right through adulthood, I wonder if in traditional societies that type of juvenile horse play is seen less often as the more serious adult roles take over?? anyway I digress...

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48. Comment #53382 by errm... on July 1, 2007 at 6:38 am

A lovely article! Stephen (comment#53332) Is that "TeeHee" as in "TeeHee & Dumbski"?

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49. Comment #53416 by the great teapot on July 1, 2007 at 11:04 am

PaulEmecz
This post on another thread may be of interest to you.
Thanks cbhg21808 ( Do you have a brother in manchester the name seems familiar)

Moral Relativism begins with the proposition that there are no objectively definable absolutes and no absolute truths, within any moral premise. Thus, the assumption is that everything is potentially relative and can be regarded has having potential actuality, as an aspect of mankind's 'moral' character.

Moral Relativism assumes that any moral question can be judged based on socially excepted premises and even the whim of the moment, simply because it is impossible to define a universal moral framework that relates to mankind as a whole and the individual as a unit.

The main claim for Moral Relativism then, is that 'anything goes' because there is nothing to 'go at'. In other words, if Moral Relativism is a true proposition, then any action is potentially moral, because nothing is immoral relative to mankind. Indeed, if everything is considered as relative and there are no universals with regard to morality, then by definition everything becomes relative and nothing can be seen as immoral within that framework.

If it were really true that Moral Relativism was the common standard and one could not identify objective moral universals... then to stab a man with a knife or not stab a man with a knife are both relative positions, because there are no absolutes in the context of Moral Relativism.

For Moral Relativism to have even a grain of truth, one would have to start from the premise that mankind had no capable way of identifying its own individual nature - its physical, psychological and philosophical nature...

But the fact is that mankind can understand the 'atomic' nature of the individual. The individuals physical, psychological and philosophical nature can be understood and indeed is being understood as mankind's knowledge progresses. It is because we can understand our nature more and more and are able to frame that nature within a universal context of morality, that allows us to conclude the Moral Relativism is a false proposition.

If it were genuinely true that we could not identify moral universals, then it would also be true that we could not create moral standards that protect individuals from the initiation of force. It is only because individuals are beings of a certain kind and behave in a certain way; that allows us to define a moral framework based around that behavior.

Coming back to the point of 'whether to stab a man with a knife or not stab a man with a knife' - and why we can identify the moral action as apposed to the immoral one. The reason mankind as a whole can agree on such a moral standard as "the initiation of force against a fellow man is morally wrong" is exactly because of mans nature (of course there are exceptions that would not be seen as initiating force, one may stab another in self-defense for example... maybe in a war situation).

An example of just one aspect of an individuals nature, is the emotion called empathy. We know that serial killers and tyrants are able to kill and even torture because they lack empathy. Empathy is basically the internal feeling or emotion that "I would not like to do to others, that which I would not like done to myself". Thus, if we see a stabbed man or woman in the street we empathize with their predicament... We essentially vicariously put ourselves 'in their shoes' and we have a deep welling up of empathy. The very fact that we are able to identify universal moral standards is because those standards have real concrete definable attributes such as empathy (we would most likely feel sympathy in the 'stab victim' situation too).

The fact is that, the more civilized a society becomes... The closer that society is to understanding it's own nature and how to incorporate that nature within a moral framework. Indeed, some societies are more civilized than others. Thus, we know that genital mutilation and honor killings are not good strategies for human beings, but in many Muslim countries such actions are being carried out. The moral standard in such countries has not shifted to the same degree that it has in more civilized western societies.

Another real concrete definable attribute is happiness. We recognize happiness as a universally good character trait... A happy individual is a rounded individual. Indeed, above all else... The degree by which an individual is happy is the degree by which one can measure the universal standard of moral stability. The happiest societies are known to be the healthiest societies. Actions such a genital mutilation and honor killings do not lead to happiness and stability. Indeed, ask Ayaan Hirsi Ali a Somali women who escaped from her Muslim past, in which she suffered terrible beatings and genital mutilation. She escaped Somalia and a forced arranged marriage, to live in the West and has become a successful author and public speaker... Ask her if she is happier now, I have little doubt of her reply.

Once you realise that Moral Relativism is a non-concept and that morals can be universally defined, based around mankind's innate nature, then the need for a a first mover or God to fill the 'moral relativistic' void; shrinks to zero.

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50. Comment #53426 by fungaljungle on July 1, 2007 at 12:14 pm

They get charity status for trying to retard science. How that is legal I will never understand.


...damn right!

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