Thursday, July 12, 2007 | Reason : Interviews | print version

Transcending God: An interview with Christopher Hitchens

by The Atlantic, Jennie Rothenberg Gritz

Thanks to Linda Ward Selbie for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200707u/christopher-hitchens

Christopher Hitchens on his case against religion, his faith in mankind, and his new bestselling book, God Is Not Great.

It's an image that could make the most hardened cynic smile: a miniature Christopher Hitchens, fair-haired and apple-cheeked, trotting across a meadow in ankle-strap sandals. It's a gentle season in a gentle era. Britain has won the war, the ruins have been repaired—the Dartmoor ponies are grazing, the grass is lush and verdant. Nine-year-old Christopher is excelling at school and has a special fondness for Bible studies. By all appearances, God's in his heaven, all's right with the world.

On this particular outing, Christopher's religion instructor, a kindly old widow, is using the natural surroundings to demonstrate God's love for humankind. In His infinite kindness, she explains, he made the grass green, a color that would please and soothe the human eye. "I simply knew," Hitchens would later write, "almost as if I had privileged access to a higher authority, that my teacher had managed to get everything wrong in just two sentences." In the green fields of England, an atheist was born.

Click here to continue:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200707u/christopher-hitchens

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1. Comment #55900 by gr8hands on July 12, 2007 at 7:41 pm

My only comment is to wonder why perpetuate a tradition that has no useful purpose? His participation in a seder solely for "tradition" is a little silly. It reminds me of some of the silly things I do.

I guess that makes us human . . .

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2. Comment #55901 by Hobbit on July 12, 2007 at 7:44 pm

I have not finished reading this interview yet (still at work) but I did want to be the first to comment (for no particular reason - just because it makes me warm and fuzzy) I also have not read this book yet, so I don't want to make any comments about it.

Of what I have read so far, I like this the best:

I think we can say with reasonable certainty that there is no God because all the hypotheses for it have been exploded or abandoned. We have better explanations for the things religion used to try and explain. But we can't disprove the existence of a deity. So if someone says, "Well, I just feel the presence of a strong force"—well, okay. I sort of know what they're going through. As long as they don't try to teach it to my children, or get the law changed to suit their opinion, or blow themselves up at the airport.

I've learned a lot from doing the tour, because I've had a debate with some religious person at every stop. What I haven't had from anyone, in print or in person, is any argument that surprised me, that I couldn't have completely predicted.

Couldn't agree more!

Maybe if the god squad could just understand that first paragraph, they would relise why many atheist's get so frustrated with them.

I have only been on this site for about a month and I have noticed that when the god squad turn up, they always come up with the same arguments. Will this thread be any different?

As for "Well, I just feel the presence of a strong force". So do I at times, usually when I get to spend 'special time' with my wife.

Looking forward to another intellectual thread.

Other Comments by Hobbit

3. Comment #55902 by Hobbit on July 12, 2007 at 7:44 pm

Beaten by that much....

D'oh!

Other Comments by Hobbit

4. Comment #55912 by troyreynolds86 on July 12, 2007 at 8:23 pm

Good interview. It gives Hitchens the ability to build upon his experiences since writing the book. This should be the motion of our lives. We should not be mired down in a moment, trapped within our own self-certainty, or in the certainty of civilizations that exist only as a memory of a memory. Today I think, today I learn. Tomorrow I shall take what I have learned, rethink what I thought and learn some more and perhaps someday I will know something worth knowing.

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5. Comment #55935 by CHWWer on July 13, 2007 at 1:12 am

It is beyond us how so many can be so beholden to Christopher "Hitchens." He is the ENEMY of the world, and only the Trinity of the Hitchens Watch can save us.

Shame on you all.

Other Comments by CHWWer

6. Comment #55945 by monoape on July 13, 2007 at 2:29 am

A very good interview and an enjoyable read made all the more enjoyable by Hitchen's wonderful attack on Falwell in the embedded video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkAPaEMwyKU). He's expressing his disgust at how Falwell has hoodwinked the gullible, faithful and that he must have "woke up each morning, pinching his chubby little flanks and thinking "I've got away with it again"". Wonderful.

P.S. Would there be any chance that people stopped posting a comment just because they think they're going to be the first to do so? This isn't the first article with a tiresome "Ooh, ooh - I'm the first to comment!".

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7. Comment #55953 by GBile on July 13, 2007 at 2:52 am

CHWWer:

Did you say ANYTHING ??

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8. Comment #55955 by Logicel on July 13, 2007 at 3:05 am

Best interview with Hitchens so far that I have read. I had no idea about the founder of American Atheists having such an odd life: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madalyn_Murray_O%27Hair

I always learn some interesting tidbit from Hitchens.

Yes, I also have noticed the recent noting of being the first to comment--I would prefer to have the last word and post the last comments in all the threads!!! LOL

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9. Comment #55962 by Corylus on July 13, 2007 at 3:38 am

Logicel

I would prefer to have the last word and post the last comments in all the threads...

No chance sweetheart!

On making the first comment, I always think long and hard before doing that. Some of the articles on here are written satirically - I fear leeping in with my big feet, totally misunderstanding, and making myself look a complete wally. I do that often enough in the general course of my life anyway :(

Cowardly and conformist I know, but there you are.

P.S. Lovely interview with Hitch: I did enjoy the mental image of the little boy in his sandals.

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10. Comment #55968 by Hobbit on July 13, 2007 at 4:03 am

P.S. Would there be any chance that people stopped posting a comment just because they think they're going to be the first to do so? This isn't the first article with a tiresome "Ooh, ooh - I'm the first to comment!".

Sorry! (Hangs head in shame). (:o(

I was being the smallest bit facetious? But ended up looking like a Pratt (I am well versed at that).

You have to admit, it gives you a little bit of a thrill to be the first to make your mark on something - leave footprints in the first snowfall of the season (never actually done that living in Australia and all), a new fence to graffiti (never done that either). I really am a sad Pratt.

Maybe it's because I'm not filled with the spirit of the teapot that I need to find fulfillment elsewhere.

It won't happen again.

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11. Comment #55974 by frankie1958 on July 13, 2007 at 4:37 am

ok well i'm the 11th poster woohoo! :)

CHWWer

Enemy of the World? Trinity of the Hitchens Watch?

What? WHAT??

At least we can see Hitchens and know he actually wrote his book and while I agree with most of what he says, I wouldnt say I was beholden to him.

But I can see that if he were invisible, say, and supposedly told others to write his book that that would be a much more credible scenario. Uh huh. Yeah.

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12. Comment #55978 by nancy2001 on July 13, 2007 at 4:50 am

Great interview, an absolute pleasure to read. Thank you for posting this.

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13. Comment #55986 by Hobbit on July 13, 2007 at 5:15 am

CHWWer:

It is beyond us how so many can be so beholden to Christopher "Hitchens." He is the ENEMY of the world, and only the Trinity of the Hitchens Watch can save us.

Shame on you all.

Errh... What!

That was a very concise argument. Who is the 'us' you refer to?

Does it take three of you to read with your lips moving & then type that very insightful rebuttal of the article?

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14. Comment #55991 by CHWWer on July 13, 2007 at 5:52 am

That was a very concise argument.

Thank you. We learned our debating skills from the Trinity.

Does it take three of you to read with your lips moving & then type that very insightful rebuttal of the article?

There are too many words in that sentence. We cannot understand.

If you want the truth about Hitchens visit The Watch:

http://christopherhitchenswatch.blogspot.com/

We only worship The Watch at our humble site.

http://christopherhitchenswatchwatch.wordpress.com/

Other Comments by CHWWer

15. Comment #55999 by automath on July 13, 2007 at 6:46 am

Yes. I realized on this book tour that I would have to write a different book for every person I met, because they all take religion à la carte.

lol, so true.

"Well my church may say that but I believe this, but obviously I'm still a good [insert religious label here] ..."

These people aren't religious, they're just stuck with a meaning and can't see any others.

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16. Comment #56002 by d4m14n on July 13, 2007 at 7:14 am

Hitchens:

There's a film—I've never seen it—about a village atheist in America. At one point, there's some incredible thunderstorm or some other apocalyptic event that makes it seem as though the Second Coming really is about to happen. Everyone's incredibly impressed. And even he thinks it seems to be true. But he keeps muttering as these events unfold, "But where did Cain get his wife?"

Does anybody know which film he's referring to?

Other Comments by d4m14n

17. Comment #56010 by CruciFiction on July 13, 2007 at 8:24 am

The interviewer says: "I happened to catch you on Crossfire last night with Al Sharpton."

Heh, the show was "Hardball", not Crossfire!

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18. Comment #56011 by Scott McMeekin on July 13, 2007 at 8:33 am

What a good interview. Hitchen's depth and breadth of knowledge is really something in todays environment of so-called "sound-byte" discourse. I look forward to the Atheist Alliance conference. Hopefully there will be plenty of coverage in the way of video and or audio of the proceedings.

Now if we can just make sure that some ignorant wingnut doesn't blow it up...

Scott.

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19. Comment #56015 by BathTub on July 13, 2007 at 9:15 am

That was a great interview, I really enjoyed reading it.

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20. Comment #56016 by Kakashi_monkey on July 13, 2007 at 9:25 am

My, it's good to have a sharp-tongued man like this supporting atheism and not fighting it. History deals with real happenings, not what pastors tell you what happened. If you want to make me believe Goliath did this or Adam did that, find fossils or other records and not a pastor's babbling.

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21. Comment #56019 by bluebird on July 13, 2007 at 10:18 am

automath,
'Aint it the truth!
A la carte: these people want to have their cake and eat it too, how convenient. We see this all the time.

Other Comments by bluebird

22. Comment #56032 by maton100 on July 13, 2007 at 11:52 am

Hell yeah baby!

http://thestubborncurmudgeon.blogspot.com

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23. Comment #56086 by athiest dude on July 13, 2007 at 4:28 pm

Hitchens was doing great until we find that he hypocritically is indoctrinating his daughter in Jewish ritual because of tradition. Apparently religion spoils everything except when indoctrinating your own kids in bronze age myths and/or ethnic supremacy...

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24. Comment #56100 by sane1 on July 13, 2007 at 6:41 pm

This is quirte excellent. My favorite exchange:

Q: All right, here it is: the fact that all these totalitarian regimes keep popping up, with or without religion, just shows that people have a tendency toward hero worship, and leaders have a tendency to corrupt that power. Religion might be a tool that leaders can use. But it's awfully tricky to find religious motives behind every anti-religious dictatorship.

A: You're quite right. Atheism is a necessary condition for emancipation of the mind, but it's not a sufficient one. You can free yourself from superstition and still end up a nihilist or a hedonist or a Stalinist. What's innate in our species isn't the fault of religion. But the bad things that are innate in our species are strengthened by religion and sanctified by it. The fact is, we are a mammalian species one half-chromosome away from chimpanzees, and it shows. Curing ourselves of religion is only a small step along the road. Fortunately, our brains seem to be evolving.

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25. Comment #56446 by BeyondBelief on July 15, 2007 at 8:10 pm

re #5900 by GR8HANDS...

Why perpetuate a tradition?

As I review the "successful" religions that have kept themselves alive through the ages, one thing that strikes me is the degree to which they demand that the believer "re-tell the story" and remind themselves of their beliefs.

It is a kind of religious exercise. Use it or lose it. I was raised Catholic, and mandatory weekly Mass attendance falls into this category, as does Saintly feast days on virtually every day. Ways to constantly force one to spend precious moments of consciousness reiterating their beliefs and sectarian affiliation.

Very important to the continuation of the group.

I lived for 2 years with an observant Kosher Jewish family while in grad school. I once asked them if they truly believed they would be punished for mixing milk and meat, or violating any of the dietary rules. The wife's reply was revelatory to me: "No, we don't really believe in the theology of the laws, but we do believe in finding a way to... EVERY DAY... to remind ourselves who we ARE."

John Mellencamp put it colloquially that religious practice is essential to avoid becoming a feather in the wind..."You've got to stand for something, or you're gonna fall for anything."

Feh... Aristotle he ain't... but I think you get my point regarding Hitchen's reason for participating in tradition. As he so rightly (and off-handedly) says, "It IS a tradition."

And all that said, while I agree that it does not make sense to perpetuate rituals upholding wierd belief systems, I think we are also at peril too rapidly discarding the entire ritual without understanding what went into their creation.

BTW, where are the Atheist stories? Where the atheist traditions? Is there an atheist curriculum? If you want to dump sectarian education and traditions, what course would you replace it with? I see this as a SERIOUS lack of our position.

The religionist may have a non-sensical set of beliefs, but man do they teach it, and repeat it, and integrate it into their schools, and proselytize for converts, and denigrate the alternatives, and...
... simply, where are the similar outreach programs from humanists, rationalists, atheists, etc., aiming to give the wayfaring believer structured education? What structured, repetitive stories are we telling our children to inculcate reason and prevent deviation from it even when it might SEEM to be a good idea? What regular rituals do we participate in to remind us (and the community that sees us in these practices) who we are, and what we believe? Where is the atheist/rationalist equivalent of Pat Robertson's "Liberty University."

Traditions are a VERY powerful component of the staying power of an idea or system of knowing the world. We in favor of reason can sit back on the belief that "Truth will out" but that leaves us in a rather tenuous position in the face of religious propagation that outstrips us in sheer fecundity, willingness to kill apostates and heretics, and childhood brainwashing. Is there just more devotion to pushing religion than there is to pushing reason?

R.

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26. Comment #56453 by gr8hands on July 15, 2007 at 8:55 pm

In response to the Comment #56446 by BeyondBelief, perpetuating non-truth is ALWAYS a bad idea. Period. Calling it "tradition" to make it easy to swallow doesn't make it useful.

The only reason people feel they need to replace the force fed traditions of untruth is because they have been taught that those traditions are integral to them. Wrong!

There is no evidence that humans must have long-held religious traditions in order to feel satisfied. Those lucky few whose parents never exposed them to religious lies as children have not grown up to be amoral freaks, causing tremendous evil. Nor are they wailing about feeling there is a hole in their psyche, or that they are incomplete. Totally silly to think they would.

Give up the phony tradition, and be amazed at how whole you feel.

Where is the atheist/rationalist equivalent of pat robertson's 'liberty university'? How about most every non-religious university or technical institute throughout the world! 93+% of academia are atheist/rationalist.

Reason doesn't feel it necessary to foist off lies that have to be constantly shoved down the throat just in order to be temporarily believed. Only religion knows that it has to be constantly reinforced, otherwise the falsity will show through.

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27. Comment #56478 by Hobbit on July 16, 2007 at 1:14 am

CHWWer wrote:

Thank you. We learned our debating skills from the Trinity.<

Firstly, that wasn't a compliment. Secondly, perhaps you should try another teacher for your debating skills.

If you want the truth about Hitchens visit The Watch:

http://christopherhitchenswatch.blogspot.com/

We only worship The Watch at our humble site.

http://christopherhitchenswatchwatch.wordpress.com/

I checked out both your links. Not much sense there either.

Why don't you post your arguments here and watch them get shot down time and time again!

Other Comments by Hobbit

28. Comment #56683 by BT Murtagh on July 16, 2007 at 11:23 pm

Traditions can come from anywhere, and they're not obligated to have a reason. Giving presents on someone's birthday is a tradition. Setting off fireworks on New Year's Day is a tradition. Why do those things, why on those days particularly? No reason, but it IS a tradition.

There's also no reason, in my view, not to appropriate holidays like Christmas and Easter - after all, they were appropriated from earlier religions! I enjoy coloring Easter eggs with my son, and decorating a Christmas tree, and no myths need be attached to doing so - it's just a free-floating tradition in my house, as I imagine the seder thing is in the Hitchens household. We can leave off the superstition without throwing out the fun parts.

I don't even have a problem with calling the holiday around the Winter Solstice "Christmas" because, Bill O'Reilly take note, Christmas is no more about Christ for us than Thursday is about Thor, or January about Janus. It's just a name to us, and its etymology is only of passing interest. Feel free to tell me to have a Merry Christmas, a Happy Hannukah, a Cool Yule, a Super Solstice... and I'll wish you pleasure and joy on any holiday you care to name.

As for nonreligious stories to encourage thinking, there are tons of them about. Aesop's Fables and the stories of Uncle Remus are particularly good (e.g. the fox who insists the grapes are sour because he can't reach them & "Please, Br'er Fox, don't throw me in that briar patch!"), but almost any story can be used that way, including the ones that make no sense if you discuss why they don't make sense (Alice's Adventures in Wonderland have prompted some very fun discussions with my boy! :).

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29. Comment #56738 by bouwe on July 17, 2007 at 4:43 am

There's a film—I've never seen it—about a village atheist in America. At one point, there's some incredible thunderstorm or some other apocalyptic event that makes it seem as though the Second Coming really is about to happen. Everyone's incredibly impressed. And even he thinks it seems to be true. But he keeps muttering as these events unfold, "But where did Cain get his wife?

This is frustrating. WHICH FILM IS THAT? Not even a clue provided to give me a reasonable chance to find out. Anybody know what he's talking about?

I wonder if it's an B&W oldie? There was Elmer Gantry and Inheret the Wind, stuff like that. Maybe it is from that period?

Maybe it's like god....doesn't exist -- after all, Hitch himself admits hasn't even seen it!

Other Comments by bouwe

30. Comment #56742 by bouwe on July 17, 2007 at 4:49 am

I wonder if it's an B&W oldie?

Apologies for this atrocious sentence, my old mac doesn't allow me to edit my posts on this website once they are "out there".

(I'm referring to the "an" by the way, the "it's is fine, apostrophe included).

Anyway.... I really want to know what that film is called!!!

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31. Comment #56792 by minstrel on July 17, 2007 at 8:50 am

I don't see how anyone can argue against keeping traditions. Can anyone think of a bad reason to bring the family and friends together to commemorate something?
You may not buy into the story that a supernatural force delivered the Hebrews from slavery in Egypt, but anyone can agree that we can celebrate being free from slavery to act, think, and express ourselves as we please. Just becasue the bedtime story is a fairy tale doesn't mean there's no moral.

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32. Comment #56795 by Elli on July 17, 2007 at 9:09 am

Agreed, minstrel. And I am sure that Hitchens gives his children all the knowledge and intellectual tools necessary to conclude that the stories are rubbish and the "ethics" of the plagues (etc) questionable. There is a way to uphold family gathering traditions without indoctrinating children, and I am confident Hitchens, of all people, is able to do so with his family.

LOVE your avatar by the way ;-)

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33. Comment #56842 by minstrel on July 17, 2007 at 12:58 pm

Yeah. I always thought YODA would be a great bass player.
LOVE your avatar too, by the way... {drool}

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34. Comment #56851 by Elli on July 17, 2007 at 1:26 pm

I always fantisized about young Obiwan hitting on me, not Yoda, but I will take what I can get! and I assure you I look much worse without the makeup... small blurry photos are a girl's best friend ;-)

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