Friday, July 13, 2007 | Reason : Wingnut News | print version

Borehamwood eruv granted planning permission

by National Secular Society

Thanks to Martin Gill for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.secularism.org.uk/borehamwooderuvgrantedplanningpe.html

Orthodox Jews in Hertfordshire have been granted permission to erect a religious boundary despite claims it would create "a Jewish state".

Hertsmere Council has approved the erection of an "eruv" around the whole town of Borehamwood. The eruv is supposed to "allow" Jews to perform tasks otherwise prohibited on the "Sabbath". The plan will see 76 six-metre high poles, joined by wire, put up at 34 points around the town. However, the scheme was questioned by the National Secular Society.

NSS President Terry Sanderson, said: "This is another example of excessive religious correctness. Whatever the religious want, they get, however foolish and potentially dangerous it might be. This eruv is supposed to relieve orthodox Jews from the need to observe self-imposed restrictions. Many don't allow themselves to carry keys, for instance, or push babies in prams or even use walking sticks on the supposed Sabbath. But they believe that if they are within this special wire boundary they can be excused the need to observe such rules – rules which make no sense in the first place. "

Mr Sanderson said the eruv had a more serious implication. "While other boroughs and towns are trying to reduce the number of roadside distractions and impediments, Hertsmere has added to them quite unnecessarily. These poles are a nuisance and a danger. Personally I can't get my head round how anyone can think that the acceptability of behaviour can be determined by the erection of a few poles and wires."

A petition signed by 250 local people objected to the eruv, but this was ignored by the council. This will be the third such boundary in the London area after eruvs in Golders Green and Edgware were erected. The late Elizabeth Segall, a secular Jew who worked hard with the NSS to oppose the first of these eruvs in Golders Green had come to a much more cynical view about eruvs as a result of observing the proponents at close quarters. Especially their dealings with the local council. She was convinced that the motivation was for the religious to make a symbolic statement as to how powerful they were and who was really in charge."

See Also: "Stuck inside on the Sabbath"
http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/indepth/features/display.var.1524272.0.stuck_inside_on_the_sabbath.php

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1. Comment #56047 by Fedler on July 13, 2007 at 2:25 pm

What is the religious makeup of Borehamwood? What is the religious makeup of the Hertsmere Council? I would be interested to know if this is political correctness run amok or an aggressive religious-leaning council imposing it's desires on others.

More importantly, it's interesting that these religites seem to be granting themselves rules so they don't have to follow outdated rules, which were dictated to them, which are outdated,...oh my, my head is spnning. In lieu of dropping the religion (the preferred thing to do), just drop the rule and be done. No need to invent another rule to counter an outdated rule.

Other Comments by Fedler

2. Comment #56048 by A.Lex on July 13, 2007 at 2:34 pm

Can we attach cross-beams to these poles and hang green flags on them too?

Other Comments by A.Lex

3. Comment #56050 by A.Lex on July 13, 2007 at 2:36 pm

Any comment from Poles?

Other Comments by A.Lex

4. Comment #56051 by robert s on July 13, 2007 at 2:37 pm

Poles and wires???

Can't an omniscient being read a map?

Other Comments by robert s

5. Comment #56052 by EnsilZah on July 13, 2007 at 2:38 pm

I find this really annoying.
If you believe in the all powerful all knowing magic sky-daddy, at least be a little consistent and give him enough brains not to be outsmarted on a technicality.

Other Comments by EnsilZah

6. Comment #56062 by Jiten on July 13, 2007 at 3:00 pm

Come on you guys no cheating allowed! God knows ALL the tricks cos he's god.

Other Comments by Jiten

7. Comment #56072 by PrimeNumbers on July 13, 2007 at 3:25 pm

We should go around cutting their wires on a Saturday so that they are no longer protected and go to hell.

Other Comments by PrimeNumbers

8. Comment #56077 by jonecc on July 13, 2007 at 3:43 pm

It occurred to me during a previous eruv controversy that on the surface of an approximate sphere such as the Earth any eruv boundary could be considered to enclose either the small area 'inside' it, or the whole of the Earth's surface outside it, since if you were to declare that larger area an eruv the boundary would be identical.

Looked at in those terms, any Jewish 'congregation' who chose to erect such an eruv would create a 'safe zone' for Jews covering very nearly the entire world, a poetic kind of liberation for a frequently persecuted group, freeing them from the limitations of their cult while asserting their right to be anywhere on the Earth.

There would have to be some area, however small, for the area 'outside' the eruv. This could be used to commemorate the history of monotheism, and all the petty tyrannies it leads to.

I did suggest this in an email exchange with a London rabbi at the time, with no success. The particular appeal of the idea to me is that it solves a religious problem by thinking in one more dimension than religious people habitually think in.

Other Comments by jonecc

9. Comment #56079 by Dr Benway on July 13, 2007 at 3:46 pm

OCD is treatable.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

10. Comment #56080 by PaulJ on July 13, 2007 at 3:47 pm

My religion requires me to wear a 1.5 metre high head-dress in public. I demand that all the public buildings I need to visit have their entrance doors adjusted at public expense, forthwith. If this is not done I shall sue the city fathers for disrespecting my religion.

Other Comments by PaulJ

11. Comment #56092 by Steve19 on July 13, 2007 at 5:48 pm

This reminds me of a story ages ago from Bondi in Sydney, which has a large Orthodox Jewish population. Apparently they were lobbying the council to install motion censors at pedestrian crossings since they were 'not allowed' to press the button and so were 'forced' to cross the road illegally. I guess these are the same people who hire non-Jewish housekeepers to turn the lights on in each room before they enter.

Other Comments by Steve19

12. Comment #56104 by PrimeNumbers on July 13, 2007 at 6:54 pm

Fine, if they don't want to work on Saturday, that's cool with me. But neither should they expect anyone else to do work for them on a Saturday - no fire or police protection. If they fall ill, doctors and nurses should not treat them.

Other Comments by PrimeNumbers

13. Comment #56119 by proud atheist USA on July 13, 2007 at 9:25 pm

hope this reminds some of you that religious stupidity isnt just a problem in the US, as some of you seem to think it is. its a problem for all of us.

Other Comments by proud atheist USA

14. Comment #56134 by Corylus on July 14, 2007 at 12:44 am

The plan will see 76 six-metre high poles, joined by wire, put up at 34 points around the town.

Hmm.. Wonder if you could run a current through it??

Seriously though - this is daft beyond measure.

Other Comments by Corylus

15. Comment #56135 by Logicel on July 14, 2007 at 12:59 am

Orthodox Jews, whose God is really OCD as far as I am concerned, need to be studied with this aspect in mind: does their many obsessive-compulsive activities ease anxiety (if so, what is causing this anxiety and is it treatable?), and/or is this OCD behavior attributed to genetic underpinnings (as there is a bit of inbreeding in orthodox communities).

When I bring this aspect up, I am usually told I am anti-semitic, but perhaps things have changed enough in terms of being able to criticize religion, that studies regarding the psychological aspects of religious practice will become more and more common.

As a teenager, I lived in a Brooklyn, NYC neighborhood which was close to a large, Orthodox Jewish community, and I would always think, if they did not have their distinctive dressing style to differentiate them, the whole lot of them would be treated for OCD, but no, behavior that is considered abnormal is excused for religious reasons once again.

As for the poles described in this article, they know where they can stick 'em.

Corylus, yes, the order of our posts, MINE FOLLOWING YOURS, THAT IS, is absolutely ACCIDENTAL.

Other Comments by Logicel

16. Comment #56136 by scottishgeologist on July 14, 2007 at 1:24 am

Are these guys taking the piss or what? Poles with wire on them? Where on earth (or live or neutral for that matter - hah!) does it mention "wire " in the bible?

And this is to allow them to do things they cant because of the "sabbath"

This sounds like making the rules up as you go along. And the council is going along with this lunacy?

Man, even the Western Isles and their Sabbath observance isnt as mad as this. Just as lame mind you .... Anyone for chaining up the kids' swings on Saturday evening? Or the "Ferry Reverand" lying down in protest at Sunday ferries? Remember that lunacy?

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

17. Comment #56137 by PrimeNumbers on July 14, 2007 at 1:35 am

Jewish religious beliefs have been almost immune to criticism due to those, who rightfully say that their beliefs are bonkers, being called anti-semitic.

These orthodox nutters must be told to stop behaving like children, to grow up and enter the real world. If they don't want to work on their holy day, then fine, but this nuance of the eruv is to "allow" them to do what every other person does on saturday. Maybe they should think that if they want to work, they can, and nobody will stop them! To need a stupid barrier / boundary is stupid beyond belief.

Quite frankly these local councils are more than wrong for wasting time, money and energy on the eruvs. What about the vast majority of people who are not Jewish? What about their right to live in their homes without them magically becoming some part of some wandering desert cult's imaginary fictions.

Other Comments by PrimeNumbers

18. Comment #56138 by Enlightenme.. on July 14, 2007 at 1:40 am

I really thought Douglas Adams' light switch on a saturday joke was just a satirical exaggeration!
My ignorance obviously respects no boundaries.
How on earth does Yahweh's, I can't see how that one is s'posed to work?

I really think these people should be required to put it up late friday nights, and then remove it early sunday mornings, at their own expense.

Other Comments by Enlightenme..

19. Comment #56141 by Christian on July 14, 2007 at 2:11 am

I really thought Douglas Adams' light switch on a saturday joke was just a satirical exaggeration!

Or not picking your nose on the Sabbath because you may accidentally rip out some hair which is practically the same as cutting your hair and that is verboten on this day.

An other favorite of mine is the rule that married women have to cover their hair. This in and of itself isn't that remarkable since this practice exists in many other cultures/religions as well but orthodox women may do so with a shaitel (wig).
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what Yahweh had in mind when he made up that rule.

But be that as it may, I think this is exactly why Judaism persisted for so long (even under persecution) i.e. extreme legalism coupled with an irascible deity with severe OCD.

Other Comments by Christian

20. Comment #56148 by irate_atheist on July 14, 2007 at 3:21 am

Once again I am reminded of the words of Albert Einstein: "Only two things are infinite - the Universe and human stupidity - and I'm not sure about the first."

Well, we now understand he was right to be unsure of the first, and correct to be certain of the second.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

21. Comment #56151 by technogogo on July 14, 2007 at 4:31 am

There is an opportunity to comment in the local newspaper on this situation:

http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/indepth/features/display.var.1524272.0.0.php

It would be good to raise some of these issues there because the views would be directly read by those on the council and those effected by this in the community.

Other Comments by technogogo

22. Comment #56152 by Steve19 on July 14, 2007 at 5:09 am

"I really thought Douglas Adams' light switch on a saturday joke was just a satirical exaggeration!
My ignorance obviously respects no boundaries."

I used to be the same, but my girlfriend, who is a non-practicing Jew, has taught me all the quirks of Orthodox Judaism. For instance, did you know that a husband is not allowed to touch his wife (anywhere) when she is menstruating?

Other Comments by Steve19

23. Comment #56156 by epicure on July 14, 2007 at 6:02 am

Daft as this eruv business is, I can't see that anyone comes to harm as a result of it. There must be more important things to bitch about...

Other Comments by epicure

24. Comment #56159 by technogogo on July 14, 2007 at 6:47 am

Epicure... you are right, there are more important things. But presumably the council officers of this borough also had more important things to consider, but instead had to deal with this issue. I wonder what the public cost have accumulated as a result of this scheme.

Other Comments by technogogo

25. Comment #56160 by bwana ndege on July 14, 2007 at 7:06 am

I used to be the same, but my girlfriend, who is a non-practicing Jew, has taught me all the quirks of Orthodox Judaism. For instance, did you know that a husband is not allowed to touch his wife (anywhere) when she is menstruating?

What? Not even Birmingham?

Other Comments by bwana ndege

26. Comment #56164 by Rtambree on July 14, 2007 at 7:33 am

Richard Feynman recounts being asked by orthodox Jews whether electricity was fire or not. They didn't know if they were allowed to push the elevator buttons on the Sabbath.

Other Comments by Rtambree

27. Comment #56198 by robzrob on July 14, 2007 at 12:14 pm

Their god's invisible, why can't they just have invisible poles and wires?!

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28. Comment #56200 by robzrob on July 14, 2007 at 12:22 pm

'I really thought Douglas Adams' light switch on a saturday joke was just a satirical exaggeration!'

No, I can vouch for it. I was coming home and just about to go in through the garden gate one Friday night (Stamford Hill, N London) and a neighbour a couple of doors down called me and asked me to switch one light off and another on.

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29. Comment #56213 by Nefrubyr on July 14, 2007 at 2:02 pm

This is fairly harmless, and we should look on the bright side. Dogs will now have 76 more places to urinate.

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30. Comment #56342 by steveroot on July 15, 2007 at 6:45 am

8. Comment #56077 by jonecc on July 13, 2007 at 3:43 pm
It occurred to me during a previous eruv controversy that on the surface of an approximate sphere such as the Earth any eruv boundary could be considered to enclose either the small area 'inside' it, or the whole of the Earth's surface outside it, since if you were to declare that larger area an eruv the boundary would be identical.

You're channeling Douglas Adams here! This reminds me of "Wonko the Sane" and his safe area "outside the asylum".

It's a great idea, but it won't fool the Teapot for a second.
Steve

Other Comments by steveroot

31. Comment #56533 by weavehole on July 16, 2007 at 7:12 am

For instance, did you know that a husband is not allowed to touch his wife (anywhere) when she is menstruating?

Surely, one can erect an eruv around one's wifes lady lumps for an hour or two a day?

Other Comments by weavehole

32. Comment #56967 by yesspam on July 18, 2007 at 1:38 am

Last night, in a dream, I was instructed by my God, that I cannot leave my house on Noodleday, (non believers call it Monday) until the area I live in is surrounded by a continuous (no gaps!) string of spaghetti. (The exact makeup of the spaghetti sting, it's ingredients, diameter, cooking time, and the ritual for it's preparation, cooking, and joining together, are detailed in our spiritual text, and amount to about 300 pages of detail.) Until this spaghetti barrier is complete, I will have to stay in bed every Monday, and if my employer sacks me, I will be taking my case to the European Court of Human Rights.

Pasta, Pasta, Pasta, (translates as Peace to All Believers.)

Other Comments by yesspam

33. Comment #58052 by _J_ on July 23, 2007 at 6:48 am

ReligiousAndRational, 33

Thanks for that post. It's very difficult to be reasonable about something when no one is speaking up for one side of the debate. Your points sound eminently sensible.

I notice that Terry Sanderson's objections are limited to 'I don't like it because I don't understand it' and unnecessary roadside objects. With regard to the first argument: well, I don't really get it either, being an atheist, but that doesn't count as a legitimate argument against it. As for the latter - I notice that over recent years making roads and pavements more unpredictable has become a genuine policy in an attempt to get drivers to slow down and pay attention to their surroundings. 76 six-metre high poles could even be helpful...

Other Comments by _J_

34. Comment #58054 by Quetzalcoatl on July 23, 2007 at 7:04 am

ReligiousAndRational- for the purposes of increasing my general knowledge. What is the point of an eruv? Why does having them around you allow you to do things that you would not otherwise be able to?

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35. Comment #58057 by steve99 on July 23, 2007 at 7:46 am

Surely Jewish law is no more ridiculous than, for example, wearing a tie, supporting a football team, high heeled shoes, gothic metal ear piercings, etc... Ritual is an intrinsic part of human nature.

Those rituals are part of a process of negotiation, of general consensus, generally about inclusivity. Religious requests like this are about partition, about encouraging difference. Also, it is acceptable to mock support of a particular football team; a particular fashion of shoe, or some "aren't I being rebellious and different - just like all the rest" goth fashion. But question or mock some strange religious ritual...

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36. Comment #58065 by AdrianB on July 23, 2007 at 8:23 am

Also, those rituals given as examples are followed by choice. Religious rituals are enforced.

Religious and non-religious rituals may be equally ridiculous, but at least the non-religious ones are easily ditched when the time comes.

What makes me laugh about this ritual in particular is what EnsilZah said above:
"If you believe in the all powerful all knowing magic sky-daddy, at least be a little consistent and give him enough brains not to be outsmarted on a technicality."

This was discussed on BBC's Heaven & Earth yesterday. I only caught part of it, but I do worry about people that "worry about how people who come to this ghetto conclusion".

It is plainly obvious that drawing a line around an area, and saying that something is only permissable within it to a certain type of person, is going to result in an increase in numbers of that type of person over the long term.

I'm sorry, but I don't like it one bit.

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37. Comment #58068 by Dr Benway on July 23, 2007 at 8:44 am

ReligiousAndRational:

Surely Jewish law is no more ridiculous than, for example, wearing a tie, supporting a football team, high heeled shoes, gothic metal ear piercings, etc...

I doubt that you're conceding that the Eruv is an arbitrary social convention like wearing a tie, etc. Seems to me you guys actually believe God accepts the wire "loophole" that lets you work around sabbath rules.

But have you any credible evidence for your position? And if you have no evidence, I must ask: is blind obedience to tradition something human beings ought to admire?

Story I once heard: Someone was visiting relatives for Passover seder. She watched as her cousin cut a chicken in half, placed each half in two pots and put them in the oven. She asked, "Why do you cut the chicken in half?"

Her cousin answered, "That's how my mother taught me to prepare Passover seder. I actually don't know why." The cousin asked her mother, who happened to be in the other room. Her mother likewise said that's how her mother had always prepared the meal. Now very curious, the cousin phoned her grandmother, who said, "Oh, we never had a pot big enough for a whole chicken. So I had to cut it in half."

I do see a place for tradition. It can be a way of anchoring important memories and values from one generation to the next. But dead ancestors ought not live on as dictators; that's taking tradition too far. If there is a God, He must be a God of the living, no? Kahlil Gibran said it best:

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let our bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

38. Comment #58069 by Dr Benway on July 23, 2007 at 9:03 am

weavehole:

Surely, one can erect an eruv around one's wifes lady lumps for an hour or two a day?

Ooo. The man who patents the first "under-and-over wire bra" could make a mint with the proper target marketing.

ReligiousAndRational:

The rules of Eruv - which are amongst the most difficult and technical rules in Rabbinic literature - are not at all emotional. They are technical, impersonal laws to arrive at a technical, apolitical end.

Our modern world presents us with a number of difficult legal problems to solve. To name a few:
- Resolving conflicts between traditional religious laws which limit the rights of women, non-believers, etc., and the doctrine of universal human rights
- The status and juristiction of an international court vs national sovereignty; safeguards against abuses of global authority
- Free trade between countries with different labor and environmental laws resulting in excessive labor outsourcing from developed countries
- Holding multinational corporations responsible for abuses of power
- Balancing global environmental protection with the needs of the poor in developing countries

Instead of solutions to problems like those above, what do the brilliant minds of the religious world give to us? Goofy, useless crap like the burka-bicycle and the lightning-rod legal loophole.

Forgive us for feeling underwhelmed by your particular social club's recent contribution to the larger community in which you live.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

39. Comment #58087 by steve99 on July 23, 2007 at 11:08 am

They are technical, impersonal laws to arrive at a technical, apolitical end.

The end is extremely political. It is a public and permanent statement of a set of views. It is nothing like as trivial as the wearing of a religious symbol by one person at school (which in itself has been the subject of intense debate), it becomes a permanent part of the architectural landscape.

Other Comments by steve99

40. Comment #58108 by Elutheria on July 23, 2007 at 2:06 pm

Re: 8. Comment #56077 by jonecc

I liked this – a very telling reminder of the infantile level of human understanding of the earth when these ridiculous rules (and get-outs) were conceived (or, indeed, handed down by God).

Similarly, the muslim tradition of facing Mecca to pray could only have been conceived by flat-earthists, else they would surely have realized that – on an approximate sphere like the earth – one is also, whilst praying to Mecca, simultaneously raising one's arse to it.

This observation – that the earth is an approximate sphere – I always find to be a potent one; if God has indeed handed down these rules to his various chosen peoples through their various magic books, he must be either [a] unsure of the earthly manifestation of the physical laws he created, or else [b] have a wicked sense of humour.

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