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Tuesday, August 14, 2007 | Science : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Our Lives, Controlled From Some Guy's Couch

by John Tierney

Reposted from:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/14/science/14tier.html?ref=science

Until I talked to Nick Bostrom, a philosopher at Oxford University, it never occurred to me that our universe might be somebody else's hobby. I hadn't imagined that the omniscient, omnipotent creator of the heavens and earth could be an advanced version of a guy who spends his weekends building model railroads or overseeing video-game worlds like the Sims.

But now it seems quite possible. In fact, if you accept a pretty reasonable assumption of Dr. Bostrom's, it is almost a mathematical certainty that we are living in someone else's computer simulation.

This simulation would be similar to the one in "The Matrix," in which most humans don't realize that their lives and their world are just illusions created in their brains while their bodies are suspended in vats of liquid. But in Dr. Bostrom's notion of reality, you wouldn't even have a body made of flesh. Your brain would exist only as a network of computer circuits.

You couldn't, as in "The Matrix," unplug your brain and escape from your vat to see the physical world. You couldn't see through the illusion except by using the sort of logic employed by Dr. Bostrom, the director of the Future of Humanity Institute at Oxford.

Dr. Bostrom assumes that technological advances could produce a computer with more processing power than all the brains in the world, and that advanced humans, or "posthumans," could run "ancestor simulations" of their evolutionary history by creating virtual worlds inhabited by virtual people with fully developed virtual nervous systems.

Some computer experts have projected, based on trends in processing power, that we will have such a computer by the middle of this century, but it doesn't matter for Dr. Bostrom's argument whether it takes 50 years or 5 million years. If civilization survived long enough to reach that stage, and if the posthumans were to run lots of simulations for research purposes or entertainment, then the number of virtual ancestors they created would be vastly greater than the number of real ancestors.

There would be no way for any of these ancestors to know for sure whether they were virtual or real, because the sights and feelings they'd experience would be indistinguishable. But since there would be so many more virtual ancestors, any individual could figure that the odds made it nearly certain that he or she was living in a virtual world.

The math and the logic are inexorable once you assume that lots of simulations are being run. But there are a couple of alternative hypotheses, as Dr. Bostrom points out. One is that civilization never attains the technology to run simulations (perhaps because it self-destructs before reaching that stage). The other hypothesis is that posthumans decide not to run the simulations.

"This kind of posthuman might have other ways of having fun, like stimulating their pleasure centers directly," Dr. Bostrom says. "Maybe they wouldn't need to do simulations for scientific reasons because they'd have better methodologies for understanding their past. It's quite possible they would have moral prohibitions against simulating people, although the fact that something is immoral doesn't mean it won't happen."

Dr. Bostrom doesn't pretend to know which of these hypotheses is more likely, but he thinks none of them can be ruled out. "My gut feeling, and it's nothing more than that," he says, "is that there's a 20 percent chance we're living in a computer simulation."

My gut feeling is that the odds are better than 20 percent, maybe better than even. I think it's highly likely that civilization could endure to produce those supercomputers. And if owners of the computers were anything like the millions of people immersed in virtual worlds like Second Life, SimCity and World of Warcraft, they'd be running simulations just to get a chance to control history — or maybe give themselves virtual roles as Cleopatra or Napoleon.

It's unsettling to think of the world being run by a futuristic computer geek, although we might at last dispose of that of classic theological question: How could God allow so much evil in the world? For the same reason there are plagues and earthquakes and battles in games like World of Warcraft. Peace is boring, Dude.

A more practical question is how to behave in a computer simulation. Your first impulse might be to say nothing matters anymore because nothing's real. But just because your neural circuits are made of silicon (or whatever posthumans would use in their computers) instead of carbon doesn't mean your feelings are any less real.

David J. Chalmers, a philosopher at the Australian National University, says Dr. Bostrom's simulation hypothesis isn't a cause for skepticism, but simply a different metaphysical explanation of our world. Whatever you're touching now — a sheet of paper, a keyboard, a coffee mug — is real to you even if it's created on a computer circuit rather than fashioned out of wood, plastic or clay.

You still have the desire to live as long as you can in this virtual world — and in any simulated afterlife that the designer of this world might bestow on you. Maybe that means following traditional moral principles, if you think the posthuman designer shares those morals and would reward you for being a good person.

Or maybe, as suggested by Robin Hanson, an economist at George Mason University, you should try to be as interesting as possible, on the theory that the designer is more likely to keep you around for the next simulation. (For more on survival strategies in a computer simulation, go to www.nytimes.com/tierneylab.)

Of course, it's tough to guess what the designer would be like. He or she might have a body made of flesh or plastic, but the designer might also be a virtual being living inside the computer of a still more advanced form of intelligence. There could be layer upon layer of simulations until you finally reached the architect of the first simulation — the Prime Designer, let's call him or her (or it).

Then again, maybe the Prime Designer wouldn't allow any of his or her creations to start simulating their own worlds. Once they got smart enough to do so, they'd presumably realize, by Dr. Bostrom's logic, that they themselves were probably simulations. Would that ruin the fun for the Prime Designer?

If simulations stop once the simulated inhabitants understand what's going on, then I really shouldn't be spreading Dr. Bostrom's ideas. But if you're still around to read this, I guess the Prime Designer is reasonably tolerant, or maybe curious to see how we react once we start figuring out the situation.

It's also possible that there would be logistical problems in creating layer upon layer of simulations. There might not be enough computing power to continue the simulation if billions of inhabitants of a virtual world started creating their own virtual worlds with billions of inhabitants apiece.

If that's true, it's bad news for the futurists who think we'll have a computer this century with the power to simulate all the inhabitants on earth. We'd start our simulation, expecting to observe a new virtual world, but instead our own world might end — not with a bang, not with a whimper, but with a message on the Prime Designer's computer.

It might be something clunky like "Insufficient Memory to Continue Simulation." But I like to think it would be simple and familiar: "Game Over."

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1. Comment #63345 by Nefrubyr on August 14, 2007 at 2:01 am

 avatar
If simulations stop once the simulated inhabitants understand what's going on, then I really shouldn't be spreading Dr. Bostrom's ideas. But if you're still around to read this, I guess the Prime Designer is reasonably tolerant, or maybe curious to see how we react once we start figuring out the situation.

Or maybe we're not the point of the simulation. Maybe our architect (who gets conflated with the Prime Designer in the article) is interested in studying black holes and hasn't even noticed the emergent life on the insignificant planet?

I read about this theory a couple of months ago and the thing that bugged me about it then was the significance that it puts on computers, as if they're some fundamental force in the universe. What I mean is, a hundred years ago there were no computers and nobody had a concept of computer simulations. In a hundred years' time, we may have invented some new unthinkable device which even better explains the existence of our universe. My gut tells me that this theory will pass out of fashion as the novelty of computing wears off.

Of course, my gut gets a lot of things wrong. But I'm still filing this under "interesting but completely untestable explanations of existence."

Other Comments by Nefrubyr

2. Comment #63349 by Corylus on August 14, 2007 at 2:18 am

 avatarOh for pity's sake!!

Brain in a Vat thought experiments are precisely that. Thought experiments.

They are about looking at hypotheticial situations in order to identify, understand and tease out your own presuppositions.

They are Not about postulating possibilities, or for that matter assigning probabilities:
Dr. Bostrom doesn't pretend to know which of these hypotheses is more likely, but he thinks none of them can be ruled out. "My gut feeling, and it's nothing more than that," he says, "is that there's a 20 percent chance we're living in a computer simulation."

This sort of brainless drivel makes me very cross. I will refrain from inflicting you all with my bad language.

However, I must confess that I have just put £2.83 into my swear box...

Other Comments by Corylus

3. Comment #63353 by _J_ on August 14, 2007 at 2:36 am

 avatarNefrubyr
I'm still filing this under "interesting but completely untestable explanations of existence."

Quite right, too. The simulation argument's been doing the rounds for a while now, and whilst it makes for entertaining sci-filosophical musings over cheese and biscuits, it partakes far too heavily of 'What if?'-ery (and invites far too much 'So what?'-ery) to hinge a serious belief about reality on.

Corylus
They are Not about postulating possibilities, or for that matter assigning probabilities [...]This sort of brainless drivel makes me very cross.

Oh, does this mean we're not going to squeeze 1,800 comments' worth of theological speculation out of David Chalmers and vatted brains this time? How things have changed! (Fingers crossed... ;) )

Other Comments by _J_

4. Comment #63355 by Dunc-uk on August 14, 2007 at 2:43 am

 avatarIt takes memory and computational power to run a simulation. Each fundamental particle in the simulation must be recorded in memory by a finite number of bits of information. Those bits are, in turn, manifested in the "real" world by real particles. There is therefore quite clearly not a 1:1 mapping between real particles and simualated ones... otherwise the simulation is not a simulation and the two worlds are effectively identical.

So each iteration in the set of simulated universes is orders of magnitude smaller and simpler than it's parent. Even if the "top" or "real" world is infinite in size, realistically the simulation it houses cannot be infinite and hence the universe it simulates is finite and bounded. This in turn restricts the size of the simulation that the child universe can accomodate, and hence the worlds it can simulate etc.

So basically, the universe regression cannot be infinite.

Moreover, any computer system running in our universe is subject to random corruption, however unlikely. This might manifest itself in the crashing or irregular operation of otherwise bug-free code. Any simulation we run in our world, will likely only run for a finite time before crashing, or revealing it's true nature to it's inhabitants. So if we are running in a simulation, we can expect to find out eventually... or spontaneously cease to exist.

I'm tempted to lump this into the "nice idea, but not credible" category. I was completely lost at the 20% likelyhood valuation.

Other Comments by Dunc-uk

5. Comment #63356 by Quetzalcoatl on August 14, 2007 at 2:44 am

 avatarSshh _J_, Dianelos might hear you!

Seriously though, as interesting as this article is, it could never be proven one way or the other, so there's no sense in worrying too much about it. It's merely an interesting thought experiment.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

6. Comment #63361 by BAEOZ on August 14, 2007 at 3:04 am

 avatarI want an upgrade of the OS to Micro$oft universe 2.0. That's the one in which I have embedded links to hot babes when I'm a teenager......It's a thought experiment...
Oh, and I get a hot ferrari plugin too!
And I want the "I'm as clever as Einstein" plugin.


Other Comments by BAEOZ

7. Comment #63362 by gordon on August 14, 2007 at 3:04 am

 avatarSome mornings I get up and feel as if my brain was in a vat all night. Is this feeling universal or just down to the ale?

Other Comments by gordon

8. Comment #63364 by anandamide on August 14, 2007 at 3:08 am

 avatarOR, it could be that the 'real' world operates on completely different principles! It could be that there's this malevolent entity - a 'demon', say, which is manipulating something about the very core of us - call it our 'soul' - now, obviously this 'soul' would exist outside spacetime as we percieve it - you could almost say it's 'unextended'. Wow! I wonder why no-one has thought of that idea before?!

[/sarcasm]

Other Comments by anandamide

9. Comment #63397 by DavidMarsh on August 14, 2007 at 4:33 am

 avatarIt's Descartes malicious demon for the 21st century:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_skepticism

"I will suppose... some malicious demon of the utmost power and cunning has employed all his energies in order to deceive me. I shall think that the sky, the air, the earth, colours, shapes, sounds and all external things are merely the delusions of dreams which he has devised to ensnare my judgement." René Descartes - Meditations on First Philosophy: First Meditation

Other Comments by DavidMarsh

10. Comment #63415 by the great teapot on August 14, 2007 at 5:11 am

42

Other Comments by the great teapot

11. Comment #63423 by Machinus on August 14, 2007 at 5:32 am

This is nonsense. Computer simulations of life aren't alive, and we are certainly that.

Computers couldn't reproduce the detail that exists in reality anyway.

Other Comments by Machinus

12. Comment #63430 by gordon on August 14, 2007 at 5:48 am

 avatar42. Perfect

Other Comments by gordon

13. Comment #63431 by USA_Limey on August 14, 2007 at 5:48 am

 avatarGee thanks.

Getting through today's work load just got that little bit harder; given it's all just a pointless simulation and all.

Other Comments by USA_Limey

14. Comment #63435 by Oliver Leif on August 14, 2007 at 6:08 am

"Getting through today's work load just got that little bit harder; given it's all just a pointless simulation and all."

Ditto

Other Comments by Oliver Leif

15. Comment #63439 by Dr Benway on August 14, 2007 at 6:17 am

 avatarI am a simulation running on a virtual reality machine I like to call "my brain." You all are sims represented there.

My particular machine is of good quality. You all ought to feel pleased at how subtle and interesting each of you appears within it.

Occasionally this machine runs Beer 2.0, and many of you start talking like dimwits in need of a boot to the head, sorry to say.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

16. Comment #63448 by pewkatchoo on August 14, 2007 at 11:53 am

 avatarHmmmm, I thought that all existentialist arguments had been killed off in the 80s.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

17. Comment #63454 by Nails on August 14, 2007 at 12:10 pm

 avatar
In fact, if you accept a pretty reasonable assumption of Dr. Bostrom's, it is almost a mathematical certainty that we are living in someone else's computer simulation.

"My gut feeling, and it's nothing more than that," he says, "is that there's a 20 percent chance we're living in a computer simulation."

Have I misread something or is this guy in need of an enema?

Other Comments by Nails

18. Comment #63458 by joekoz451 on August 14, 2007 at 12:17 pm

"Of course, my gut gets a lot of things wrong. But I'm still filing this under "interesting but completely untestable explanations of existence."

However true that may be ... I derive immense pleasure sharing articles like this with people of my acquaintance who hold equally unsupportable, untestable explanations of existence (often referred to as fundamentalists). Kinda like poking sticks at the monkeys. They've been flinging poop around for millennia. Providing 'em with a pause for thought is not a bad thing.

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19. Comment #63459 by Nefrubyr on August 14, 2007 at 12:19 pm

 avatar11. Comment #63423 by Machinus
This is nonsense. Computer simulations of life aren't alive, and we are certainly that.

And you know that with certainty, do you? Do you have a definition of life that we should all know? Is there some special life-endowing property of organic compounds that can't be simulated?
Computers couldn't reproduce the detail that exists in reality anyway.

Ours couldn't. Maybe our simulation masters have much better computers, in some unimaginably larger world.

Anyway, Nick Bostrom's page is located here: http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html
The concept of substrate independence is probably the most interesting thing I got out of it.

Other Comments by Nefrubyr

20. Comment #63461 by BicycleRepairMan on August 14, 2007 at 12:21 pm

 avatar-Did you know you have more nerve endings in your gut than you have in your brain? Its true, look it up.

-Now, I know some of you are gonna say "I did look it up, and its not true", But thats because you looked it up in a book. Books are elitist. Try looking it up in your gut, thats were the truth is. -Stephen Colbert.

Other Comments by BicycleRepairMan

21. Comment #63468 by Zakie Chan on August 14, 2007 at 12:36 pm

 avatarTo quote Bertrand Russell, in regards to people who feel that this world is somehow an illusion, "I wish they would get into a car and drive straight into a wall at a speed proportional to their belief that the wall is not real."

Other Comments by Zakie Chan

22. Comment #63477 by Pete_C on August 14, 2007 at 1:00 pm

Why does Nick assume that the simulations being run would be simulations of ancestors? Or use trends in our (presumably simulated) universe to gauge the probabilities of anything happening in the universe one level up?

(Imagine a sentient Pac-Man thinking he's in a computer simulation, written by another pie-shaped creature who eats dots and is chased by ghosts...)

Other Comments by Pete_C

23. Comment #63485 by Dr Benway on August 14, 2007 at 1:21 pm

 avatarHey Zakie Chan,

Just wanted to say, your atheism video on YouTube is great.

/offtopic

Other Comments by Dr Benway

24. Comment #63494 by FitzRoy on August 14, 2007 at 2:16 pm

The notion is "Not even wrong," akin to Bertrand Russell's teapot in orbit between Earth and Mars.

But, hypothetically, if it were true . . . then what reason would there be to assume that the laws of physics in the "meta-universe" would be the same as ours?

And, if the laws of physics were different -- perhaps radically so, perhaps beyond anything we can even imagine -- then would not all the assumptions about computers, processing power, etc. in the "meta-universe" go out the window?

Other Comments by FitzRoy

25. Comment #63496 by USA_Limey on August 14, 2007 at 2:18 pm

 avatarComment #63485 by Dr Benway wrote:

"Hey Zakie Chan,
Just wanted to say, your atheism video on YouTube is great."

... Well Doc, don't be greedy and keep it all to yourself, let's have a link then.

:-)

__________________________________________________
Carousel is a lie! There is no renewal!

~ Logan

Other Comments by USA_Limey

26. Comment #63497 by Zakie Chan on August 14, 2007 at 2:28 pm

 avatarThanks Dr. Benway!

Hey USA Limey, here ya go... http://youtube.com/watch?v=fdVucvo-kDU

Other Comments by Zakie Chan

27. Comment #63501 by sidfaiwu on August 14, 2007 at 3:33 pm

 avatarSo who designed the Prime Designer? ;)

Really this is just a techie rehash of the classic brains in a vat idea, popularized by The Matrix. All of our 'reality' could just as possibly be the dream of some being.

What I find interesting about this post is the implications it holds for RD's arguments that our universe is not designed. For the sake of argument, suppose that we are a simulation as described in the OP. Then our universe would, in effect, have an intelligent designer. Since we can know nothing about the universe which this Designer inhabits ("Let's cut then number of dimensions in half to save on computation time") , the ultimate origin of the Designer would be forever unknowable by us.

This situation is logically possible. On the other hand, David Hume (and more recently RD) has shown that the appearance of design doesn't guarantee the existence of a designer. So, metaphysically speaking, we are left not knowing whether there is some sort of Designer.

This has been the metaphysical problem I've been thinking about for that past few months. ID is definitely not sufficient to prove the existence of a Designer, but neither is its refutation sufficient to prove the non-existence of a Designer. The conclusion I am starting to come to is that metaphysics is interesting, but useless when it comes to producing knowledge.

Other Comments by sidfaiwu

28. Comment #63504 by USA_Limey on August 14, 2007 at 3:40 pm

 avatarZackie Chan,

Oh, THAT atheist video! Of course I am well aquainted with it, but did not remember the name of the creator.

Great to have you on the site!

_____________________________________________________
Carousel is a lie! There is no renewal!

~ Logan

Other Comments by USA_Limey

29. Comment #63507 by spellboots on August 14, 2007 at 3:49 pm

http://xkcd.com/117/

(I registered just to post this link as I thought it was so appropriate)

Other Comments by spellboots

30. Comment #63539 by Robert Maynard on August 14, 2007 at 6:10 pm

 avatarOne could never claim with absolute certainty that these kinds of scenarios are impossible (although they're fairly ridiculous), and the remarks here about so-called computational limitations are pretty rich, but this cracked me up:
"My gut feeling, and it's nothing more than that," he says, "is that there's a 20 percent chance we're living in a computer simulation."
Oh no! Please say you meant 15%, 20% is too high for comfort! ..What's that? That number is not based on anything?

Oh, okay.

..I mean, I personally try not to measure, let alone listen to, the ruminations of my gut.. but okay.

Other Comments by Robert Maynard

31. Comment #63556 by Cycik on August 14, 2007 at 7:36 pm

Spellboots: Here is a funnier version.

http://omgwtf.superlime.com/pong.swf

Bottom line for all these types on philosophies is does it really matter. You still need to live your life as you see fit to work with the world and go with the sense is that is seems real.

Sort of the same logic the religious have with the "What if you are wrong?" argument. This higher order of universe is far more interesting than the bronze age superstition we have been given as the default option.

The only odd part is the universe does seem too seamless for this to be a simulation.

Wait... I just had an idea on how you can prove it is a simu

....connection terminated [No Carrier]

Other Comments by Cycik

32. Comment #63571 by Rational_G on August 14, 2007 at 10:43 pm

 avatarThis is BS.

Excuse me, I have a real world to explore........

Other Comments by Rational_G

33. Comment #63664 by stephenray on August 15, 2007 at 9:03 am

A thousand years after William of Ockham and there are philosophers who don't understand the principle of his razor.

My *gut feeling* is that anyone with a gut feeling that our existence has any chance whatsoever of being inside somebody else's computer should be humanely retired.

Other Comments by stephenray

34. Comment #63749 by baal on August 15, 2007 at 4:13 pm

Well, as the article itself states, knowledge of whether Bostrom is correct or not is impossible (although it is interesting that Bostrom appears to have ignored qualia or Searle's Chinese Room argument in making his initial assumption - perhaps it is not all that reasonable to assume that computer simulations could be conscious). Also, as many posters here have already stated, a "20%" probability he is correct (on his own estimate) is unjustified except by the theorist's own "gut."

As this is the case, and as Bostrom has left his theoretical doubt at that, without development (unlike Descartes), it seems no more than a coffee-table talking point rather than any serious philosophy. If I had a swear box, it would be rather full and heavy after reading that article.

Other Comments by baal

35. Comment #63764 by Dr Benway on August 15, 2007 at 5:45 pm

 avatarbaal:
If I had a swear box, it would be rather full and heavy after reading that article.
I have a swear box. When it gets full, I take the money to the store for ice cream and chocolate. So all you shithead cunts can go fuck yourselves. Assholes.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

36. Comment #63767 by BAEOZ on August 15, 2007 at 6:53 pm

 avatarSidfaiwu:
The conclusion I am starting to come to is that metaphysics is interesting, but useless when it comes to producing knowledge

Amen to that brother. I've come to the conclusion that most metaphysics is intellectual wankery thought up to make a belief system seem reasonable. It it interesting, but totally devoid of what we might call useful or reliable evidence. The antitheis of knowledge. But I could be wrong. :)

Dr. Benway:
So all you shithead cunts can go fuck yourselves. Assholes.

Tuffy would never have said such vulgarity! For shame, bring back the tit-avian!

Other Comments by BAEOZ

37. Comment #63769 by The Schuermannator on August 15, 2007 at 7:18 pm

 avatarWell guys and gals...

All I can say is that if we ARE existing as a computer simulation, let's just hope it's a Mac!

w00t w00t!

Other Comments by The Schuermannator

38. Comment #63776 by Russell Blackford on August 15, 2007 at 9:29 pm

I have to defend Nick here. He quite openly says that the 20 per cent gut feeling is no more than that. He doesn't expect anyone to agree; he doesn't think that the figure should carry any weight at all with anyone. Also, he doesn't conclude we are living in a computer simulation. He just does this thought experiment which says, this or that or the other, based on certain assumptions that lots of materialist philosophers find plausible (including a computationalist account of mind). As far I can see, he makes quite a good argument, based on his premises.

While I don't take the thought experiment as seriously as he does, I can't see why a bunch of open-minded people should be hostile to it. Nick isn't like a religionist claiming to know the truth, let alone like one who wants to impose his "truth" on others or terrorise children with it. It's all playful and full of admissions of uncertainty. Surely these are virtues. Enjoy it for what it is.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

39. Comment #63777 by BAEOZ on August 15, 2007 at 9:33 pm

 avatarRussell Blackford:
Nick isn't like a religionist claiming to know the truth, let alone like one who wants to impose his "truth" on others or terrorise children with it.

Great! I don't get an upgrade to my life when the designer installs Vista Designer of the Universe edition then! There goes that fantasy!

How'd the talk go last night Russell?

Other Comments by BAEOZ

40. Comment #63783 by Russell Blackford on August 15, 2007 at 10:34 pm

^The talk seemed to go well. I was preaching to the choir, but it led to a lot of good discussion about what we can/should be doing, here in Melbourne, to fight the forces of evil religion. Pity you weren't able to stay. (It was nice to meet you, though ... as well as other people from the Rationalist Society, etc.)

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

41. Comment #63785 by BAEOZ on August 15, 2007 at 10:46 pm

 avatarRussell Blackford:
Pity you weren't able to stay. (It was nice to meet you, though

Spooky religious moment? I can be in two places at once and not realize it? Just kidding. I wasn't able to get away from the airport in time to make it to your talk. Thus, it must've been someone else who looked like a tassy devil and took my identity....Glad it went well. Good on you for getting up and doing something.

Other Comments by BAEOZ

42. Comment #63786 by Russell Blackford on August 15, 2007 at 10:49 pm

Sorry, I met various people and I thought that one introduced himself as Barry and had to go before the talk. I took him to be you. How confusing! Maybe I misheard his name.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

43. Comment #63787 by BAEOZ on August 15, 2007 at 10:57 pm

 avatarRussell Blackford:
I thought that one introduced himself as Barry

That explains it. My name's Brian. :)

Other Comments by BAEOZ

44. Comment #63792 by Russell Blackford on August 15, 2007 at 11:42 pm

^ Ah, so it's all just my confusion. Sorry about that. I plead only that being introduced to a whole bunch of people at once immediately before giving a talk can be confusing, at least for me. Oh well, the main thing is that it seemed to go okay.

Back to the thread, Nick Bostrom is thinking about this for an entirely different purpose from any religionist, if I have the idea right. He's trying to think through the possibilities of what might happen in the future, not trying to solve questions about the origin of the universe. I'm sure he'd say that if we were in some kind of simulation that there'd ultimately have to be something like an evolutionary explanation for how such complexity arose in the first place.

The trouble with the thought experiment is that, even given its own assumptions (e.g. computationalism), it's inconclusive (though suggestive in various ways). If we actually had some way of knowing that we are not in a simulation, we might be able to draw some better probabilistic conclusions, but we can't actually rule this out. It doesn't feel like that, of course, but then again it wouldn't.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

45. Comment #63794 by pewkatchoo on August 15, 2007 at 11:52 pm

 avatarRussell, just bang yourself on the head a few times. Does it hurt? Does that pain feel real? Apply Bill O's shaving utensil!

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

46. Comment #63796 by Russell Blackford on August 15, 2007 at 11:54 pm

Not sure what you're getting at, pewkatchoo, but hi anyway. I don't think Occam's razor is the issue here, as no one is trying to explain anything. I mean of course we'd reach for Occam's razor if someone suggested that we're living in a world controlled by a Cartesian demon. The additional entity does no explanatory work, but that's not what this is all about.

As I said, the thought experiment is inconclusive, but it was in another context entirely.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

47. Comment #63798 by Corylus on August 16, 2007 at 12:07 am

 avatarBAEOZ
Great! I don't get an upgrade to my life when the designer installs Vista Designer of the Universe edition then! There goes that fantasy!
Probably a good thing Baeoz, you get the Vista upgrade and you sit happy and amazed at how old sections of your life load quickly onto it.

Then when you try to actually run the @$£%ing, "£$"$£$£%£%&ing thing (K'ching into the swear box) your life falls apart.

Eventually, you find yourself in a seedy bar somewhere (none of your old friends know or recognise you anymore) and the rest is a drive into the abyss...

Other Comments by Corylus

48. Comment #63799 by Corylus on August 16, 2007 at 12:22 am

 avatarRussell

I can see why you want to defend this guy for being playful and I really do take your point.

However, have to disagree with you on this one. It is hard enough to study philosophy without the world and his wife telling you that it is useless waste of time and 'what's the point?' This sort of thing, reported in a paper with a large readership really doesn't help with that.

Anyway, glad the talk went well.

Much, much respect for actually doing something :-)

Other Comments by Corylus

49. Comment #64244 by irate_atheist on August 18, 2007 at 11:52 pm

 avatar"My gut feeling, and it's nothing more than that," he says, "is that there's a 20 percent chance we're living in a computer simulation."

And from one genius to another...

"What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that is."
-- Vice President Dan Quayle (reported in the NY Times, 9th Dec '92)

Other Comments by irate_atheist

50. Comment #99538 by djmwatts on December 17, 2007 at 2:46 am

No complex computer software yet built has been perfect. Therefore, if we are living in a computer simulation we would expect to see the effect of bugs on a regular basis and be able to use this to deduce the existence of the simulation.

On the other hand George Bush becoming president does seem like a cruel experiment perpetrated by vindictive teenagers.

Other Comments by djmwatts
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