Friday, August 24, 2007 | Reason : Wingnut News | print version

Shop targets U.S. hunters with camo Bibles

by Reuters

Thanks to Ivan Bailey for the link.

Reposted from:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUKN0641891720070813

DALLAS (Reuters) - An on-line outdoor retailer in the United States is selling camouflaged Bibles, a curious product which says a lot about American culture.

"Our NIV (New International Version) Bible in Realtree camo is our best selling item, followed closely by our camo Bible cover," said David Lingner, the president of Arkansas-based Christian Outdoorsman, which sells Christian-themed hunting and angling products online.

The cover of this Bible is graced by leaves and tree bark. This enables the devout who also hunt to take their Bible into the woods with them while concealing it from their prey.

The C in Christian on the shop's Web site is shaped like a fish hook while the O in Outdoorsman has a cross-shaped rifle scope site inside of it.

Also on offer is a camo waterproof Bible. "Water, ice or condensation will not damage this durable word of God," proclaims the on-line sales pitch.

Such products are classically American and highlight cultural traits which are especially pronounced in the South.

The first is a love affair with all things cam, from pick-up trucks to baseball hats to shotguns.

"Men in the South love camo, it's just another way to communicate that they are an outdoorsman," said Lingner.

These products also highlight the U.S. evangelical love affair with hunting, fishing and the great outdoors.

Prominent U.S. evangelicals who engage in such activities include President George W. Bush and James Dobson, founder of the influential conservative Christian advocacy group Focus on the Family.

A U.S. survey of licensed hunters and anglers last year commissioned by the National Wildlife Federation found half of those polled identified themselves as evangelical Christians.

Evangelical Christians, who number 60 million in the United States, are a key base of support for the Republican Party, which helps to explain its stand on a number of issues including its strident opposition to gun control. Hunters don't take kindly to restrictions on their weapons of choice.

Lingner said the evangelical enthusiasm for the outdoors went beyond the macho culture of the U.S. South.

"Because we believe that God created all this, when we are outdoors it is really a spiritual experience and we see how awesome it is. It makes being outdoors that much more meaningful," he said.

And Christ's disciples were fishermen after all.

There are a number of U.S. Christian outdoor ministries including Anglers for Christ Ministries, Christian Bowhunters of America and the Christian Deer Hunters Association.

Anglers for Christ Ministries said in its mission statement that it is "heeding God's call to minister to the lost and be 'Fishers of Men.'"

Add to del.icio.us Posted: Friday, August 24, 2007 | Permalink

Comments 1 - 50 of 52 |

Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers

1. Comment #65536 by nancy2001 on August 24, 2007 at 4:23 pm

It's not just the hunters -- it's also the bikers here in the Alabama bible belt. My husband and I were driving through our neighborhood early last Sunday. As we drove past the local Baptist megachurch we saw almost 50 hard core bikers and their Harleys assembled in the parking lot. Apparently they were getting a little dose of old time religion in before their weekly joy ride. Anyway it was a very strange sight.

Other Comments by nancy2001

2. Comment #65538 by ChrisMcL on August 24, 2007 at 4:32 pm

What bible? I don't see any bible.

Oh! There it is!

Hey, how about making the bible completely invisible. Can Jesus do that?

Other Comments by ChrisMcL

3. Comment #65539 by Jolly Wally on August 24, 2007 at 4:34 pm

Tacky...

Other Comments by Jolly Wally

4. Comment #65540 by star_aas on August 24, 2007 at 4:48 pm

ahh...hunting-just a pathetic way of pretending to be "macho", when you're really a coward, just like following religion and pretending to be knowledgeable, when you're really ignorant

Other Comments by star_aas

5. Comment #65546 by Will in Aus on August 24, 2007 at 5:39 pm

Good old Genesis giving humans "dominion" over everything!

I've got a new product idea for their wacked out store:

"The New Southern Hick Version of the Bible: so even the stupidest person alive can read the word of God whilst shooting stuff."

Other Comments by Will in Aus

6. Comment #65547 by ? on August 24, 2007 at 5:46 pm

Is any hunter so religious that he has to carry the Bible while in the act of stalking and killing the animal!?

I could kind of see them taking the Bible along on the trip if that is their choice of reading material. But to actually be carrying it so that if it wasn't camo, the colors would be distracting. "Hey Jim, the glare off your bright red Bible is blinding me and scaring away the deer. Why can't you be more like James Dobson or George Bush and get one of those nifty new hunting Bibles?" Of course, most animals see in black and white anyway.

I know its really just a "style" thing, but the article seemed to be implying the new cover was "practical" in some way. Perhaps they were subtly mocking the whole concept.

Other Comments by ?

7. Comment #65549 by n0rr1s on August 24, 2007 at 6:02 pm

Hunting and religion coming together - 2 of the most loathesome activities I can think of. Makes me sick.

Other Comments by n0rr1s

8. Comment #65550 by magetoo on August 24, 2007 at 6:08 pm

The sacred word of the Creator - now available as a lifestyle gimmick.

I guess it's ironic.

Other Comments by magetoo

9. Comment #65554 by USA_Limey on August 24, 2007 at 7:21 pm

Don't judge a book by its cover!

(ah.. someone had too)

Other Comments by USA_Limey

10. Comment #65578 by petermun on August 25, 2007 at 12:54 am

"Christian Bowhunters of America" - crossbows I assume.

Other Comments by petermun

11. Comment #65590 by rokort on August 25, 2007 at 2:27 am

These products also highlight the U.S. evangelical love affair with hunting, fishing and the great outdoors.

Lingner said the evangelical enthusiasm for the outdoors went beyond the macho culture of the U.S. South.

"Because we believe that God created all this, when we are outdoors it is really a spiritual experience and we see how awesome it is. It makes being outdoors that much more meaningful," he said.

So because God made it they 'see' it's beauty. Apparently they can't find beauty and happiness by themselves or understand how to appreciate something just for what it is. And then of course destroy it by looting and shooting from their pick-up. It's like saying all the time: God made it for ME, ME, ME!!!

How deluded can you be? If it weren't so sad i'd laugh my butt off. Don't even know where to start to say how absurdly ignorant this whole Happy-shooting-Christian-with-camouflage-Bible crap is.

Religion poisons EVERYTHING

Other Comments by rokort

12. Comment #65595 by captain underpants on August 25, 2007 at 3:17 am

Please tell me that the article is satire.

Other Comments by captain underpants

13. Comment #65617 by slummingangel on August 25, 2007 at 6:17 am

quick hijack the shipment and throw them out in to a forest they'll never find them unless they use mental detectors

Other Comments by slummingangel

14. Comment #65620 by Mango on August 25, 2007 at 6:39 am

A few days ago at the Baton Rouge, Louisiana airport I saw a piece of camo luggage. I wondered how anything else could be more ridiculous in camo. I've found my answer.

Other Comments by Mango

15. Comment #65621 by andwar99 on August 25, 2007 at 6:45 am

"Please tell me that the article is satire."

I had to check that this wasn't another article from the Onion. Alas, no.

Other Comments by andwar99

16. Comment #65624 by Yorker on August 25, 2007 at 7:01 am

9. Comment #65554 by USA_Limey

"Don't judge a book by its cover!"

You mean like not judging an avatar by its image?

(hated to rake it up, but too good to resist!) :)

Other Comments by Yorker

17. Comment #65626 by Yorker on August 25, 2007 at 7:18 am

Based upon experience, this was my list of things an American religite must be:

1. Pro-God (of course)
2. Pro-guns
3. Pro-war
4. Pro-republican
5. Pro-death penalty
6. Pro-militia groups
7. Pro-huntin' 'n fishin'
8. Pro-patriotism
9. Anti-abortion
10. Anti-Chomsky
11. Anti-rationality
12. Anti-anyone who disagrees with them.

Now I'll have to add 'pro-camo bibles' to a mix that's starkly contradictory for followers of a loving god.

Other Comments by Yorker

18. Comment #65627 by Yorker on August 25, 2007 at 7:35 am

10. Comment #65578 by petermun

"...crossbows I assume."

Not exclusively, they also use hi-tech archery style bows that shoot aluminium-shafted arrows with broad-bladed barbed steel heads. Some states allow hunting with - believe it or not - telescopic sight-equipped handguns!

Most American hunters aren't; they're mostly just animal killers. I like hunting and did quite a lot of it as a kid, I was raised in the wilds of Scotland where fish and game were killed for food, I see nothing wrong in that but I can't abide killing for "fun" or "sport".

Other Comments by Yorker

19. Comment #65630 by Johnny O on August 25, 2007 at 7:45 am

"Because we believe that God created all this, when we are outdoors it is really a spiritual experience and we see how awesome it is. It makes being outdoors that much more meaningful,"

Which is why the drive there in their big gas guzzling truck to fuck it all up... genius

Other Comments by Johnny O

20. Comment #65632 by Johnny O on August 25, 2007 at 7:56 am

Please tell me that the article is satire.

If it was a video clip I'd expect Jon Stewart or Colbert to be doing the voice over.

My family and I went to Florida a couple of years ago and after being in a few gift shops started a comptetition to find the tackiest tourist present. These ranged from real crocodile claw back scratchers, to an "I Love Jesus" bucket.

The winner, which my son found, was a stand with three lamps on it. Each of the lamps was someone being crucified on a cross and JC in the middle. The thing that sealed the deal however was the writing on the box which said, "Let Jesus light up your life"...

We were laughing so loudly that we were asked to leave the shop.

Other Comments by Johnny O

21. Comment #65641 by dlitt on August 25, 2007 at 9:23 am

Maybe a target on the cover would be more effective.

Other Comments by dlitt

22. Comment #65643 by dlitt on August 25, 2007 at 9:38 am

How about the Bible for the E-savy. It would start something like this... "In d bgin n, G cre8ed d Hev n & d Erth,,,"

Other Comments by dlitt

23. Comment #65659 by RickM on August 25, 2007 at 11:33 am

IMMHO, and as a former aerobatic competitor/snow skier/software engineer/fisher/hunter/gun owner/Harley rider and life long atheist, camo bibles imply; no cure for stupid (as perhaps are some of the above posts).

Other Comments by RickM

24. Comment #65687 by Shuggy on August 25, 2007 at 3:47 pm

I've just been reading in David Sloan Wilson's "Evolution for Everyone" about "stealth religion", by which he means the likes of Ayn Rand's Objectivism, Marxism and Maoism (and I'd add psychoanalysis and psychotherapy).

I don't think he had in mind anything as literal as this.

Other Comments by Shuggy

25. Comment #65709 by Azven on August 25, 2007 at 11:51 pm

I want my Bible to be camouflaged as a Harry Potter book so that I can read the good word on the tube without being attacked by fundamentalist atheists.

OK... Joking!!!

Other Comments by Azven

26. Comment #65718 by JanChan on August 26, 2007 at 1:39 am

Azven, there's a Harry Potter hardcover book that could be mistaken for a bible because of its thick black cover. Will that do? Then when reading Harry Potter, people might think that you're devout. And you can bring it to churches (and funerals?) to read when you're forced to go there with your family.

Other Comments by JanChan

27. Comment #65747 by fin on August 26, 2007 at 9:14 am

A few days ago at the Baton Rouge, Louisiana airport I saw a piece of camo luggage. I wondered how anything else could be more ridiculous in camo.

If it helps you spot your luggage and prevents someone accidentally taking it at the luggage belt, is not ridiculous.

Other Comments by fin

28. Comment #65805 by Electric Monk on August 26, 2007 at 8:11 pm

"Because we believe that God created all this, when we are outdoors it is really a spiritual experience and we see how awesome it is. It makes being outdoors that much more meaningful," he said....

And then we blow the crap out of it.

Other Comments by Electric Monk

29. Comment #65870 by bamafreethinker on August 27, 2007 at 7:24 am

I'm from Alabama and yes, I do occasionally wear camo : )

Almost everyone I know is an evangelical Christian and a deer hunter, and close to 100% of those hunters eat what they shoot. Only a vegan could criticize such a hunter – but no more than he should criticize a non-hunting meat-eater or leather consumer. What makes me angry is when one of those hunters makes the statement, "That's what animals were put here for". But I'm not surprised – I saw things through their world view just a few years ago.

I also think that owning guns for sport, recreation, or self-protection is an important part of maintaining a free society. I feel that the right to bear arms is one of the vital necessities to the strength of our country – on par with a free press, the freedom of speech, and the separation of church and state. I own several guns, and use them for recreational target shooting and for their collector's value – and to protect my family if need be. Obviously, some degree of gun control is desirable, but when it comes down to it, gun control takes guns away from the law-abiding citizen and leaves them in the hands of the criminals. I consider it arrogant for someone to think that only a choice few are responsible (moral) enough to own a weapon. Who's to decide who those few are?

I'm proud of America to a degree, but do not blindly agree with everything she does, so I'm no dogmatic patriot. I'm a freethinker when it comes to hunting, guns, patriotism, religion, and the choice of one's garments or the covering of his or her sacred, ancient-myth-texts…

Other Comments by bamafreethinker

30. Comment #66109 by crazy4blues on August 28, 2007 at 8:53 pm

Sooooooo . . . I don't suppose there's a Camo version of The God Delusion in the works? No? Okay, how about Letter to a Christian Nation then????

Other Comments by crazy4blues

31. Comment #66111 by JesusH on August 28, 2007 at 10:41 pm

Nice post BamafreeThinker

I am from Canada which probably has an even larger hunting and fishing population per capita then the US. Where I am from, everyone has guns and most people hunt moose

Sad and disgusting some of the comments on this thread, proves again how most atheists on this board are just as stereotyping, hateful and dogmatic as the people they criticize

Other Comments by JesusH

32. Comment #66113 by Richard Morgan on August 28, 2007 at 11:23 pm

At least one religion has beaten everybody else to it with the "camo wife".
A bon entendeur...

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

33. Comment #66116 by Richard Morgan on August 28, 2007 at 11:30 pm

JesusH :

Sad and disgusting some of the comments on this thread, proves again how most atheists on this board are just as stereotyping, hateful and dogmatic as the people they criticize

Stupid remark. Being an atheist doesn't necessarily make anybody a "nice person". Nobody ever said that it should. Though preferring truth to illusion does improve one's chances of entering into honest relationships.

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

34. Comment #66119 by Veronique on August 29, 2007 at 12:08 am

29. Comment #65870 by bamafreethinker

I feel that the right to bear arms is one of the vital necessities to the strength of our country – on par with a free press, the freedom of speech, and the separation of church and state. I own several guns, and use them for recreational target shooting and for their collector's value – and to protect my family if need be. Obviously, some degree of gun control is desirable, but when it comes down to it, gun control takes guns away from the law-abiding citizen and leaves them in the hands of the criminals

Oh, dear. What freedom of the press, what freedom of speech and what separation of church and state? It has been so eroded as to be functionally non-existent. Today on our news media, the results of a survey came through. I was only half listening to it and, if you want me to, I'll find the details. The upshot was that the US came through as having the highest ratio at 90 guns per 100 people. Australia has the lowest ratio. As I said, I wasn't listening closely.

I have an email friend in Arkansas who has listed for me the number and type of firearms he has. He had been subject to physical abuse by gangs on the streets (Chicago, if I remember correctly) and has never been without weaponry since. I find this very sad and deeply disturbing, but I cannot gainsay his need to protect himself.

When I lived in the bush, I had to kill my own food. I have no problem looking after my own need for sustenance and that of my kids. I shot kangaroo and wild boar and trapped rabbits. I can also (if I am lucky) catch fish for the same reason. I later farmed my own chickens and killed them for food. Killing a python that's trying to kill my chickens and then preparing the carcass for the table is, likewise not a problem. I also killed young, unwanted, male calves for food. No sweat.

I do, however, have an enormous problem with 'sport' killing. I equate it with a seeming ridiculous desire of humans to prove that they have power over other animal species. I am old enough to remember this sort of thing being lauded through film and cheap literature. I do not see this as proper stewardship. Humans seem to have a propensity to kill for killings sake. This, I find, reprehensible. And, of course, it's never a level playing field. The other animal always loses.

31. Comment #66111 by JesusH

I consider myself a fairly normal person sighs and smiles deprecatingly. I don't understand why you would try to take posters on this thread to task and denigrate them.

Perhaps you will explain why

Cheers
V

Other Comments by Veronique

35. Comment #66121 by rokort on August 29, 2007 at 12:23 am

Not just a stupid remark. First of all there's only a few anti-hunting remarks (and why not? There's enough people shooting the crap out of animals just to make themselves feel better. We have shops and fridges these days, you know), so second, therefore most atheists on this board are sterotyping, hateful and dogmatic?

Where on earth you get the hateful and dogmatic from?
So I wonder who is stereotyping here.

Other Comments by rokort

36. Comment #66122 by Veronique on August 29, 2007 at 1:01 am

35. Comment #66121 by rokort

We have shops and fridges these days, you know

I have been fed on meat all my life. Before it was my responsibility to feed myself, I was subject to my parents' feeding habits. That, I think, is pretty normal for most kids.

I recall a time when I was standing at the back of a queue in a butcher's shop waiting to be served. I listened to all those in front of me requesting various cuts of various meats – maybe I was daydreaming, I don't remember. It was after the 'bush' living I described in the above post.

What I do remember was when I came to the front of the queue and asked a butcher for 6 lamb chops. I looked at him quizzically and here is (sort of) the conversation:

Me: I want to ask you for 6 lamb chops and now I am thinking how clinical and displaced is this request about my necessary food. I don't even know the lamb.

Him (smiling): I know, but are you prepared to kill for your own food requirements?

Me: I don't know. I used to do it. But it seems so strange to buy parts of an animal with which I have had no contact. Clinical and distanced somehow, and not part of my immediate responsibility in supplying my own food needs.

Him (still smiling): You have no idea what it is like to kill, drain and then butcher an animal. Maybe you should start on a small scale. I understand what you are saying.

Me: Well, I still want the lamb chops but there seems to have been a shift in my consciousness. I will have to think about this.

So, the lamb chops went into the fridge and were consumed at the next meal. Yes we have shops and fridges and the concomitant sense of distance from the source of our food. I am not convinced that this is a good thing. Necessary, perhaps in this modern world where we can't all produce our own food. There's a big downside though. It's dissonance.

I was 30 years old when that little epiphany happened. I left Melbourne soon after. I found Mullumbimby and built a farm-let. I think it advantaged me beyond expectations. It was certainly the best thing I could have contributed to my boys' upbringing. It made them self sufficient and utterly practical. And me as well! Yeah!!

JesusH has to explain himself. Stereotypical, hateful and dogmatic atheists?? Try it on kiddo – you are bound to fall over. Hahaha, another one joins the ranks!!

My best
V

Other Comments by Veronique

37. Comment #66128 by hungarianelephant on August 29, 2007 at 1:36 am

Veronique: Yes we have shops and fridges and the concomitant sense of distance from the source of our food. I am not convinced that this is a good thing. Necessary, perhaps in this modern world where we can't all produce our own food. There's a big downside though. It's dissonance.

Quite right. It doesn't just apply to animals either. Few kids grow up these days really appreciating that the vegetables on their plate come out of the ground. Driving through Ireland recently, it was staggering how many people had decided to build ugly, environmentally damaging single developments, but were not growing so much as a dandelion. I don't think it's too much to say that this breeds disconnection from the land, so that the pressure becomes for food to be cheap and waste to be the council's problem. I'm not saying that people should be entirely self-sufficient, but it wouldn't hurt to grow a row of carrots. The farm on which my wife grew up, which grew enough vegetables to feed a family of 11 and still have enough to sell at the market, now produces only milk. It's not right.

My grandparents' generation would have considered it quite shocking that we fly food in from all over the world, only to throw a quarter of it away. Some stewardship. It's the same attitude that leads to veal pens, pigs raised indoors and battery chickens.

I've never known an animal I've eaten. But these days I do want to know where it grew up and that it had a decent life. Even apart from the ethical side, a happy animal tastes better. And it's irresponsible to blame farmers for poor conditions. If consumers simply refused to buy battery chickens and their eggs, the cages would be gone within a couple of months.

Not sure this has anything to do with camouflage bibles, but I feel a lot more passionately about this. Sorry.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

38. Comment #66131 by Richard Morgan on August 29, 2007 at 1:42 am

hungarianelephant :

a happy animal tastes better.

Hahahahahahaha!
Hohohohohohoho
Hihihihihihihihihi
That is priceless!
I love it!
You have just given me my next t-shirt slogan!
Keep 'em coming, please.

Make sure your turkey dies smiling.
Superior sausages from placid pigs.
Little lamb never knew what hit him, and YOU can taste the difference.
Rapture rashers of beacon bacon - are your pigs born again?
Mouth-watering steaks from consumer-friendly cows, because friendly cows taste better.
Scrumptious happy-egg omelettes!
How you treat what you eat before it is meat
can make the meat you eat a real treat!

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

39. Comment #66132 by Corylus on August 29, 2007 at 1:49 am

There is a HUGE a difference between killing for food and killing for sport. (Jesus H you seem to have ignored people who made this important distinction)

When someone goes and hunts for food (often to feed their children) who am I to say that this is wrong? I wouldn't presume. In fact, if you hunt your food direct I would say that this is morally better than buying factory farmed produce from your local supermarket because you do not really like to think about where your food came from. At least the animal has had a bit of a life in its proper environment.

I admire the consistency and honesty of people who hunt for their own food.

However, I also try to be consistent in my actions. I find myself unable to kill anything - I simply can't face it. I'm too soft. Accordingly, I haven't (knowingly) eaten anything you have to kill to get for over 20 years. (A decision taken in childhood, but one I don't regret) Not easy at first, but, I could no more eat meat now than fly in the air. (I also think it would be better for our poor beleagued environment if more people ate lower down the food chain and there was a greater emphasis on arable farming, but that is a separate point). HungarianElephant I agree with you that it is shocking how few people grow their own food - I'm not self sufficient in my garden, but I do make an effort.

Hunting for sport though seems to bring out the worst in many. (Especially when these people hunt in groups) Maybe it is some deep atavistic pack instinct that is being tapped into, but its not pretty. In Britain we have the fox hunting brigade (ostensibly outlawed now, but the law is often ignored). This is often more about group cohesion and social climbing than anything else. They say that this is for the good of the countryside, however, left alone the countryside regulates itself. Oscar Wilde called them "The unspeakable pursuing the inedible." I find it hard to disagree.

This combination of going out and killing what you do not / can not eat while sanctimonously carrying a bible shows a certain type of mindset that many (including myself) would like to distance themselves from. If this makes me hateful and dogmatic mea culpa.

Other Comments by Corylus

40. Comment #66133 by Veronique on August 29, 2007 at 2:06 am

37. Comment #66128 by hungarianelephant

The disconnect becomes stronger as the global population burgeons. I lived with an American Jewess in the late 1970s who confessed to me that she hadn't realised that beetroot was a vegetable – she had only known it from supermarket tins!! I was gobsmacked!.

The other thing that I am becoming aware of is that city dwellers never take their shoes off until they are within the sanctity of their homes. How many big city dwellers ever feel the earth between their toes? This is disconnect on a large scale. I can't see that this does us any good at all.

We are seeing some very strange immunological problems within city dwellers. Now, I can't cite any particular studies (although I know there are some) that point to an aseptic (as far as is possible) life style as being deleterious to actual and practical living on this old planet. I do think, however, that the sequestering of children against normal interaction with their environment is having a problematic effect in those children being able to cope with the microscope inhabitants of our world.

I have just bought Carl Zimmer's Parasite Rex and I won't get to read it for a while. I am still reading Stenger's God, a Failed Hypothesis and Dennett is in the wings. AAARRRGGGHHH – will I live long enough to read everything I want to? I doubt it!!

You will be pleased to know that I throw nothing away:-). All dross goes into the compost bin and its beautiful result feeds the soil tilth of my vege garden. I buy very little: well as little as I need – I still have to buy meat for the cats and me. I never buy veges – no need.

Good on you elephant. I am also pretty passionate about this. I wish more were:-).

Hopefully some of us will get there:-). Camo bibles? Give me a break!!
V

Other Comments by Veronique

41. Comment #66141 by rokort on August 29, 2007 at 2:44 am

V;

Let me mention that i made that remark to point to the fact that not necessarily you need to go out shoot animals for food anymore. I have the impression that (too) many hunters say they 'need' to shoot for food but that it's more about being out there, hanging out with friends, and perhaps trying to make up for feeling insignificant by showing off 'real male dominance'. Next to the fact that hunters in Alaska cannot be compared to hunters in less rural places/more industrialized area's for example.

But like you say, and hungarianelephant acknowledges, we've become disconnected with life that ends on our table (or in the waste-basket). This has led to assuming it's normal to eat meat every day and not thinking how the animal lived its life and how it ended. Because we think we deserve, need or have to consume so much meat we've created a lot of misery.

I have killed and prepared a diverse array of animals to serve as food. Now i mostly eat vegetarian food because i've learned it's pretty tough to kill an animal you like and i've come to realize we don't need that much meat. My ideal would be to have my own pig, goat, some chickens, and vegetables from my own backyard. Be self-supporting. To not see animals just as food, but raise them with love and appreciate the circle of life. One could argue that's a very selfish or even hypocritical way of looking at things because I decide about an animals' life, but nevertheless I think it's still better to do it like this and eat meat only once a while than shop for it always. I understand you need space for this, but it wouldn't hurt to cut down on meat consumption or stop treating animals as objects only.

Since anything can be extracted from the 'Big Book' this idea of going back to nature in a sensible way must be found somewhere in the Bible as well, otherwise it might be hard to convince the happy hunting camo Bible aficionados.

Other Comments by rokort

42. Comment #66144 by Corylus on August 29, 2007 at 3:16 am

RobertM

Think you are being a bit unfair here.

Apparently there is some element of truth into happy animals tasting better. For example, meat-eating friends tell me there is a huge difference in taste between free range and intensively farmed chicken and bacon.

Free range animals tend to have more fat on them, and fat transmits flavour.

Other Comments by Corylus

43. Comment #66146 by hungarianelephant on August 29, 2007 at 3:30 am

V - You might be interested in this, on the connection between asthma (amongst others) and antiseptic environments: http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arc99/8_14_99/bob2.htm

I read an article recently claiming that a child growing up with a cat in the house is much less likely to have allergies. Unfortunately it didn't cite any actual study, so it may just have been a Silly Season article.

Richard Morgan - Mock all you want, but you know it's true. Fancy a double-blind controlled test?

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

44. Comment #66148 by Veronique on August 29, 2007 at 3:56 am

41. Comment #66141 by rokort

Please, I wasn't having a go at you:-).

Our species, like many others, are omnivores. We eat anything and everything that gives us sustenance, ie. energy. I don't have a problem with this. I have a niece who is a vegan. She is chronically sick. She always complains about her health status, distresses about her respiratory health, the health of her liver function and what organic salts she pisses in her urine. Drives me batty. She is consumed with angst. I never want to be like her.

As omnivores, humans are able to access and process a variety of foods. Our digestive tract (bless the genes that were able to sort that one out!!) does its job. This is absolutely GIGO. Do you think about what you put into your very efficient system? I don't, at least on a micro level. But I have a fair understanding of nutritional health. I have to: my cats and my fish (omnivores) are dependent on me to supply their nutritional needs. If I fuck up for them, how am I likely to feel about myself? I don't like that thought at all.

Let me mention that i made that remark to point to the fact that not necessarily you need to go out shoot animals for food anymore

That was the point of my story about the butcher and me. Of course, one doesn't necessarily have to go out and shoot his food. If he doesn't, then someone else will and he will purchase it from a butcher.

I thought I had addressed your point about 'human dominance over lesser species'.

I've come to realize we don't need that much meat

.

It's not so much the meat as the quality of protein that we humans seem to need to function optimally. No one really has studied this properly. So all info is apocryphal. That's life. It will change, maybe, depending on funding and commercial influence. And I am not even cynical!!

But like you say, and hungarianelephant acknowledges, we've become disconnected with life that ends on our table (or in the waste-basket). This has led to assuming it's normal to eat meat every day and not thinking how the animal lived its life and how it ended. Because we think we deserve, need or have to consume so much meat we've created a lot of misery

You are constructing something that neither I nor the elephant said at all.

Please address what you want to address a little more cogently, if you don't mind. Many thanks
V

Other Comments by Veronique

45. Comment #66153 by Richard Morgan on August 29, 2007 at 4:31 am

hungarian elephant : Don't be so stroppy! I wasn't mocking at all! It was just so cute to see it written like that, I couldn't resist taking it a bit further. OF course I know you're right. At sixty-one I've probably known it for longer than you've been alive.
Haven't you noticed that among all the heavy crap that sometimes gets thrown around on this board, I occasionally try to lighten things a little. You know, just a little chuckle here and there to help us not get bogged down in taking ourselves too seriously.
Heck, who can get serious about somebody who calls himself "hungarianelephant"?
Excuse me, I have to leave you there. We're having a barbecue next week, a real méchoui and I need to take the sheep for it's penultimate session of psychoanalysis. (Apparently an unresolved Oedipus complex gives the meat a slightly bitter flavour.)

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

46. Comment #66154 by rokort on August 29, 2007 at 4:39 am

V;

my apologies that it seemed i was offended or something (if i understand you right this time), which i wasn't at all. I always seriously enjoy your postings. I guess i have to keep working on my English! Some days it's hard to translate into another language what i really think, and apparently to translate back what other people really mean. Again, sorry for that. Will try harder to say what i really want to say with better choice of words.

Another good lesson for thinking twice before responding, thank you. And I hope this one is cogent enough now. ;-)

Other Comments by rokort

47. Comment #66164 by hungarianelephant on August 29, 2007 at 6:16 am

Richard Morgan - Fair enough. I misunderstood you, not least as you are one of the more adept posters at mockery and ridicule.

The bitterness might be from the burnt wool. I suggest you see if the shrink will give Flossy a good shave while he's about it.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

48. Comment #66165 by pewkatchoo on August 29, 2007 at 6:37 am

Fin
Er, surely the whole point of camo luggage should be that you can't spot it easily.

Rokort
Come on. Most Dutch people of my acquaintance are able to think in English. They also seem to have an unhealthy obsession with Monty Python and Fawlty Towers too.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

49. Comment #66169 by bluebird on August 29, 2007 at 6:54 am

In our house it's:
The right to bear arms AND
The right to arm bears.

Other Comments by bluebird

50. Comment #66170 by rokort on August 29, 2007 at 6:54 am

pewkatchoo;

Though once a while i do think and sometimes even dream in English, apparently i still have to do a much better job in order to be understood. And i have to admit, sometimes when speaking my native language my friends also go like "what the hell are you rambling about this time, man?!"

So: Must and will try harder to get the right message accross next time.

And what's wrong with thinking Monty Python and Fawlty Towers are the most funny things EVER?

Other Comments by rokort