










Polygamist Leader Convicted in Utah
ST. GEORGE, Utah -- The leader of a polygamous Mormon splinter group was convicted Tuesday of being an accomplice to rape for forcing a 14-year-old girl to marry her 19-year-old cousin.2. Comment #73702 by Big T on September 25, 2007 at 11:16 pm
Ordering a frightened fourteen year old girl to have sex against her wishes should be a crime everywhere on earth, whether the person doing the ordering claims a divine sanction or not. I'm glad the jury returned a guilty verdict. A blow has been struck for rationality, civilization and humanity against blind obedience to superstition, fear and ignorance.3. Comment #73711 by Mr C on September 25, 2007 at 11:58 pm
There is a very good documentary on this church and on the search for Jeffs - Banking on Heaven. It was realeased in 2006 before his arrest.4. Comment #73719 by Corylus on September 26, 2007 at 12:58 am
"Everyone should now know that no one is above the law, religion is not an excuse for abuse and every victim has a right to be heard," said Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff, who had endorsed the prosecution in Washington County.
5. Comment #73722 by Crazymalc on September 26, 2007 at 1:24 am
6. Comment #73726 by Veronique on September 26, 2007 at 1:38 am
7. Comment #73732 by Peacebeuponme on September 26, 2007 at 2:24 am
Ah. The story is not about polygamy, but child abuse. Good to see there is a conviction then.8. Comment #73740 by shaunfletcher on September 26, 2007 at 3:46 am
Like incest, the 'problem' is rarely actually to do with the thing itself (does anyone genuinely care if an adult brother and sister sleep together? or if one woman/man and two women/men want a tripartite marriage?)9. Comment #73745 by steveroot on September 26, 2007 at 4:01 am
10. Comment #73747 by Logicel on September 26, 2007 at 4:06 am
11. Comment #73748 by Mysturji on September 26, 2007 at 4:07 am
12. Comment #73756 by bamboospitfire on September 26, 2007 at 4:43 am
13. Comment #73766 by Yorker on September 26, 2007 at 5:39 am
14. Comment #73772 by Russell Blackford on September 26, 2007 at 6:08 am
^There's a fair bit of evidence that we are not attracted to people with whom we grew up as young children - seems to be innate. That's a reasonable proxy for not being sexually attracted to siblings ... hence we tend to find the idea of sex with our siblings repulsive or off-putting, even if we haven't been specifically taught to, and no matter how attractive they may be.15. Comment #73777 by Russell Blackford on September 26, 2007 at 6:36 am
Peacebuponme, I totally agree, although I do think that institutionalised polgyny tends not to be good for women, children, or low status men. There seems to be some evidence for the first two and the first and third stand to reason in any event.16. Comment #73790 by mdowe on September 26, 2007 at 7:47 am
17. Comment #73815 by annabanana on September 26, 2007 at 9:00 am
18. Comment #73824 by 82abhilash on September 26, 2007 at 9:26 am
13. Comment #73766 by Yorker on September 26, 2007 at 5:39 am
8. Comment #73740 by shaunfletcher
Your mention of incest made me think. I have two sisters both of whom are still very attractive and in my youth, on occasion wondered why I never had any sexual thoughts about them. This is not my field but it seems like there's an in-built mechanism against incest. Maybe in some people it doesn't exist or they're able to overcome it.
Does anyone have a professional opinion on it?
8. Comment #73740 by shaunfletcher
does anyone genuinely care if an adult brother and sister sleep together?
19. Comment #73850 by irate_atheist on September 26, 2007 at 10:59 am
20. Comment #73855 by Bertybob on September 26, 2007 at 11:13 am
21. Comment #73860 by Linda on September 26, 2007 at 11:36 am
The cultural taboos against incest stem from practical reasons, as without new material the gene pool is prone to perpetuate unwanted physical and mental characteristics. Some of you may have Türkiye, which at first was heralded as a possible link in the evolution of our species however on closer examination of the family and its predisposition to incest reveals that the inability to walk upright is due to inbreeding:22. Comment #73865 by Yorker on September 26, 2007 at 11:54 am
23. Comment #73870 by mdowe on September 26, 2007 at 12:14 pm
The big perk for men is obviously the 'get out of jail free card' bestowed by the gods which is a carte blanche excuse to have sex with children
24. Comment #73918 by walk on September 26, 2007 at 2:53 pm
25. Comment #73942 by Russell Blackford on September 26, 2007 at 5:32 pm
walk, in some Western sub-cultures (science fiction fandom being the one that I'm familiar with) various kinds of polyamorous arrangements are well-accepted and, if not exactly the norm, at least quite common. Do these arrangements work out in the long term? Well, I'll just say that the one that works out permanently always seems to be one that you hear about second or third hand. :)26. Comment #73943 by BAEOZ on September 26, 2007 at 5:39 pm
27. Comment #73950 by Goldy on September 26, 2007 at 8:20 pm
As much as the forcing of a young girl angers me, it appears normal in many cases.28. Comment #73952 by steveroot on September 26, 2007 at 8:32 pm
27. Comment #73950 by Goldy on September 26, 2007 at 8:20 pm
As much as the forcing of a young girl angers me, it appears normal in many cases.
http://in.rediff.com/news/2004/mar/18saudi.htm
29. Comment #73955 by ranman55 on September 26, 2007 at 8:57 pm
The claim by Steed that the 14 year-old (at that time) girl initiated the sexual activity is absolutely preposterous and a cowardly cop-out as30. Comment #74013 by windfall on September 27, 2007 at 4:41 am
31. Comment #74075 by bluebird on September 27, 2007 at 6:52 am
32. Comment #74137 by Yorker on September 27, 2007 at 11:31 am
33. Comment #74216 by Veronique on September 27, 2007 at 6:03 pm
34. Comment #74222 by Goldy on September 27, 2007 at 7:11 pm
Talking of inbreeding, I remember reading of an Italian village where most of the death causing disorders were very rare. Only reason most people could think of was...inbreeding. As a local said, they were not rich, so those that were affected by anything died and only the strong lived.35. Comment #74230 by Russell Blackford on September 27, 2007 at 9:14 pm
BAEOZ, I don't know very much about Deakin's philosophy program - I suspect that it may be more mixed up with interdisciplinary stuff than you'd find in a more traditional philosophy department, and would probably have an emphasis on Continental philosophy.36. Comment #74231 by BAEOZ on September 27, 2007 at 9:22 pm
37. Comment #74401 by Ashley1319 on September 28, 2007 at 2:50 pm
Well, I'm sooo glad that we've decided that if you get caught or called on stuff like this, you can get arrested. WHAT ABOUT THOSE THAT DON'T? Are we just going to let the polygamist sect continue, when it's a fact that they force women into marriage and sex all the time? Polygamy needs to be outlawed in the United States. If they did it without using coercion on the girls, it would be different, but they do.
1. Comment #73690 by Pieter on September 25, 2007 at 9:37 pm
Anyone who's up for a good read on Mormon fundamentalism (and a lot of mainstream mormonism as well) should pick up a book by John Krakauer called "Under the Banner of Heaven." It was published a few years ago but it mentions Jeffs' group and what goes on in their communities.Other Comments by Pieter