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Scandal brewing at Oral Roberts U.
by AP
Thanks to Rob Singleton for the link.
Reposted from:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071005/ap_on_re_us/oral_roberts_scandal
TULSA, Okla. - Twenty years ago, televangelist Oral Roberts said he was reading a spy novel when God appeared to him and told him to raise $8 million for Roberts' university, or else he would be "called home."
Now, his son, Oral Roberts University President Richard Roberts, says God is speaking again, telling him to deny lurid allegations in a lawsuit that threatens to engulf this 44-year-old Bible Belt college in scandal.
Richard Roberts is accused of illegal involvement in a local political campaign and lavish spending at donors' expense, including numerous home remodeling projects, use of the university jet for his daughter's senior trip to the Bahamas, and a red Mercedes convertible and a Lexus SUV for his wife, Lindsay.
She is accused of dropping tens of thousands of dollars on clothes, awarding nonacademic scholarships to friends of her children and sending scores of text messages on university-issued cell phones to people described in the lawsuit as "underage males."
At a chapel service this week on the 5,300-student campus known for its 60-foot-tall bronze sculpture of praying hands, Roberts said God told him: "We live in a litigious society. Anyone can get mad and file a lawsuit against another person whether they have a legitimate case or not. This lawsuit ... is about intimidation, blackmail and extortion."
San Antonio televangelist John Hagee, a member of the ORU board of regents, said the university's executive board "is conducting a full and thorough investigation."
Colleagues fear for the reputation of the university and the future of the Roberts' ministry, which grew from Southern tent revivals to one of the most successful evangelical empires in the country, hauling in tens of millions of dollars in contributions a year. The university reported nearly $76 million in revenue in 2005, according to the IRS.
Oral Roberts is 89 and lives in California. He holds the title of chancellor, but the university describes him as semi-retired, and his son presides over day-to-day operations on the campus, which had a modern, space-age design when it was built in the early 1960s but now looks dated, like Disney's Tomorrowland.
Cornell Cross II, a senior from Burlington, Vt., said he is looking to transfer to another school because the scandal has "severely devalued and hurt the reputation of my degree."
"We have asked and asked and asked to see the finances of our school and what they're doing with our money, and we've been told no," said, Cross who is majoring in government. "Now we know why. As a student, I'm not going to stand for it any longer."
The allegations are contained in a lawsuit filed Tuesday by three former professors. They sued ORU and Roberts, alleging they were wrongfully dismissed after reporting the school's involvement in a local political race.
Richard Roberts, according to the suit, asked a professor in 2005 to use his students and university resources to aid a county commissioner's bid for Tulsa mayor. Such involvement would violate state and federal law because of the university's nonprofit status. Up to 50 students are alleged to have worked on the campaign.
The professors also said their dismissals came after they turned over to the board of regents a copy of a report documenting moral and ethical lapses on the part of Roberts and his family. The internal document was prepared by Stephanie Cantese, Richard Roberts' sister-in-law, according to the lawsuit.
An ORU student repairing Cantese's laptop discovered the document and later provided a copy to one of the professors.
It details dozens of alleged instances of misconduct. Among them:
A longtime maintenance employee was fired so that an underage male friend of Mrs. Roberts could have his position.
Mrs. Roberts who is a member of the board of regents and is referred to as ORU's "first lady" on the university's Web site frequently had cell-phone bills of more than $800 per month, with hundreds of text messages sent between 1 a.m. to 3 a.m. to "underage males who had been provided phones at university expense."
The university jet was used to take one daughter and several friends on a senior trip to Orlando, Fla., and the Bahamas. The $29,411 trip was billed to the ministry as an "evangelistic function of the president."
Mrs. Roberts spent more than $39,000 at one Chico's clothing store alone in less than a year, and had other accounts in Texas and California. She also repeatedly said, "As long as I wear it once on TV, we can charge it off." The document cites inconsistencies in clothing purchases and actual usage on TV.
Mrs. Roberts was given a white Lexus SUV and a red Mercedes convertible by ministry donors.
University and ministry employees are regularly summoned to the Roberts' home to do the daughters' homework.
The university and ministry maintain a stable of horses for exclusive use by the Roberts' children.
The Roberts' home has been remodeled 11 times in the past 14 years.
Tim Brooker, one of the professors who sued, said he fears for the university's survival if certain changes aren't made.
"All over that campus, there are signs up that say, `And God said, build me a university, build it on my authority, and build it on the Holy Spirit,'" Brooker said. "Unfortunately, ownership has shifted."
Reposted from:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071005/ap_on_re_us/oral_roberts_scandal
TULSA, Okla. - Twenty years ago, televangelist Oral Roberts said he was reading a spy novel when God appeared to him and told him to raise $8 million for Roberts' university, or else he would be "called home."Now, his son, Oral Roberts University President Richard Roberts, says God is speaking again, telling him to deny lurid allegations in a lawsuit that threatens to engulf this 44-year-old Bible Belt college in scandal.
Richard Roberts is accused of illegal involvement in a local political campaign and lavish spending at donors' expense, including numerous home remodeling projects, use of the university jet for his daughter's senior trip to the Bahamas, and a red Mercedes convertible and a Lexus SUV for his wife, Lindsay.
She is accused of dropping tens of thousands of dollars on clothes, awarding nonacademic scholarships to friends of her children and sending scores of text messages on university-issued cell phones to people described in the lawsuit as "underage males."
At a chapel service this week on the 5,300-student campus known for its 60-foot-tall bronze sculpture of praying hands, Roberts said God told him: "We live in a litigious society. Anyone can get mad and file a lawsuit against another person whether they have a legitimate case or not. This lawsuit ... is about intimidation, blackmail and extortion."
San Antonio televangelist John Hagee, a member of the ORU board of regents, said the university's executive board "is conducting a full and thorough investigation."
Colleagues fear for the reputation of the university and the future of the Roberts' ministry, which grew from Southern tent revivals to one of the most successful evangelical empires in the country, hauling in tens of millions of dollars in contributions a year. The university reported nearly $76 million in revenue in 2005, according to the IRS.
Oral Roberts is 89 and lives in California. He holds the title of chancellor, but the university describes him as semi-retired, and his son presides over day-to-day operations on the campus, which had a modern, space-age design when it was built in the early 1960s but now looks dated, like Disney's Tomorrowland.
Cornell Cross II, a senior from Burlington, Vt., said he is looking to transfer to another school because the scandal has "severely devalued and hurt the reputation of my degree."
"We have asked and asked and asked to see the finances of our school and what they're doing with our money, and we've been told no," said, Cross who is majoring in government. "Now we know why. As a student, I'm not going to stand for it any longer."
The allegations are contained in a lawsuit filed Tuesday by three former professors. They sued ORU and Roberts, alleging they were wrongfully dismissed after reporting the school's involvement in a local political race.
Richard Roberts, according to the suit, asked a professor in 2005 to use his students and university resources to aid a county commissioner's bid for Tulsa mayor. Such involvement would violate state and federal law because of the university's nonprofit status. Up to 50 students are alleged to have worked on the campaign.
The professors also said their dismissals came after they turned over to the board of regents a copy of a report documenting moral and ethical lapses on the part of Roberts and his family. The internal document was prepared by Stephanie Cantese, Richard Roberts' sister-in-law, according to the lawsuit.
An ORU student repairing Cantese's laptop discovered the document and later provided a copy to one of the professors.
It details dozens of alleged instances of misconduct. Among them:
A longtime maintenance employee was fired so that an underage male friend of Mrs. Roberts could have his position.
Mrs. Roberts who is a member of the board of regents and is referred to as ORU's "first lady" on the university's Web site frequently had cell-phone bills of more than $800 per month, with hundreds of text messages sent between 1 a.m. to 3 a.m. to "underage males who had been provided phones at university expense."
The university jet was used to take one daughter and several friends on a senior trip to Orlando, Fla., and the Bahamas. The $29,411 trip was billed to the ministry as an "evangelistic function of the president."
Mrs. Roberts spent more than $39,000 at one Chico's clothing store alone in less than a year, and had other accounts in Texas and California. She also repeatedly said, "As long as I wear it once on TV, we can charge it off." The document cites inconsistencies in clothing purchases and actual usage on TV.
Mrs. Roberts was given a white Lexus SUV and a red Mercedes convertible by ministry donors.
University and ministry employees are regularly summoned to the Roberts' home to do the daughters' homework.
The university and ministry maintain a stable of horses for exclusive use by the Roberts' children.
The Roberts' home has been remodeled 11 times in the past 14 years.
Tim Brooker, one of the professors who sued, said he fears for the university's survival if certain changes aren't made.
"All over that campus, there are signs up that say, `And God said, build me a university, build it on my authority, and build it on the Holy Spirit,'" Brooker said. "Unfortunately, ownership has shifted."
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Posted: Friday, October 5, 2007 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 67 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #76374 by kaiserkriss on October 5, 2007 at 4:27 pm
Another case of power corrupting weak individuals, leading to an attitude of "entitlement" . Disgusting!! Hope all the Roberts family end up as paupers. jcw
Other Comments by kaiserkriss
3. Comment #76378 by Canuck#1 on October 5, 2007 at 4:40 pm
Lets see how jehovah god would handle this problem...Yea, I wii smite thee with the flaming sword..,thy body will be carrion for the birds...thy soul will reside in hell..there will be a curse on thy chidren and thy children's children to tne fifth generation....I am the lord god and I have spoken...AMEN...how do you like those apples Oral....you piece of....SORRY,SORRY ...got a little carried away there...BUT YOU ARE THE LOWEST OF THE LOW....Other Comments by Canuck#1
4. Comment #76379 by Veronique on October 5, 2007 at 4:42 pm
ThePuckishOne Welcome, you lurker you:-).I reckon all these guys looked at what could be achieved by tracking the exploits of Mormonism and Scientology and rubbed their hands with glee.
The more of these fellows (and their wives) who are rumbled legally, the better. As far as I am concerned, the more airplay their appallingly selfish and grubby behaviour gets, the more chance this house of evangelical cards will topple.
Good to see students leaving to protect their educational credibility.
All is good:-).
Beautiful morning in Mullum and the goldfish are frisky
V
Other Comments by Veronique
5. Comment #76380 by Crazymalc on October 5, 2007 at 4:42 pm
Twenty years ago, televangelist Oral Roberts said he was reading a spy novel when God appeared to him and told him to raise $8 million for Roberts' university, or else he would be "called home."
Oral Roberts makes it sound like a bad thing.
God: "You better do this thing for me or I'll send you to eternal paradise"
Oral (tee hee): "Ok! Ok! I'll do anything, just don't send me to heaven!"
Other Comments by Crazymalc
6. Comment #76384 by Robert Maynard on October 5, 2007 at 4:57 pm
I just love God's quoted counsel in this article, compared to his old, formal commands. It sounded so laidback and world weary."Oral - can I call you Oral? - listen, this sorta thing happens all the time to my most ..enabled followers. They haven't got a case. They're trying to drag you down, man, but you know what, Oreo? You just gotta rise above that shit."
Other Comments by Robert Maynard
7. Comment #76392 by Matt7895 on October 5, 2007 at 5:23 pm
Televangelists should be locked away like the dangerous conmen and fraudsters that they are. Other Comments by Matt7895
8. Comment #76397 by Duff on October 5, 2007 at 5:44 pm
Oral and his family are GGGOOODD's children. Be kind!!! They deserve a special dispensation of kindness, because they have declared their obedience and love to GOODD to all His followers. Be kind!!! Because they have declared that love of GOD, we have to give them a special beneficence. Be kind to them. They may be dirt bags and special hypocritical sinners, but we must be kind to them...!!! They have declared their obedience to GGOODD.Other Comments by Duff
9. Comment #76401 by prettygoodformonkeys on October 5, 2007 at 5:52 pm
Oral is an abomination.So is Anal.
Other Comments by prettygoodformonkeys
10. Comment #76416 by PeterK on October 5, 2007 at 6:55 pm
..and I always figure one only catches about 10% of all untoward actionsOther Comments by PeterK
11. Comment #76421 by bluebird on October 5, 2007 at 7:43 pm
As a kid living in Tulsa 1972 I remember being favorably impressed with ORU's architecture...Everything's big in Tulsa, 60 foot praying hands sculpture on ORU campus, and this guy:
http://www.roadsideamerica.com/attract/OKTULoil.html
Other Comments by bluebird
12. Comment #76424 by thompjs on October 5, 2007 at 7:56 pm
I went to Tulsa University and while there worked as a plumber's helper on construction there. Oral had a membership at Southern Hills Country Club. The dues were thousands per month, minimum. Everyone intown knew he was a money grubbing scam.
As Gomer Pyle would say: "Surprise, Surprise"
BTW, look up the history of Carlton Pierce also from
Tulsa.
Other Comments by thompjs
13. Comment #76432 by atheist_peace on October 5, 2007 at 8:59 pm
This is exactly why religious institutions should not be granted charitable status. Other Comments by atheist_peace
14. Comment #76443 by Veronique on October 5, 2007 at 10:48 pm
13. Comment #76424 by thompjsDid you mean Carlton Pearson? He's listed as a graduate from ORU.
So is Ted Haggard!!
Cheers
V
Other Comments by Veronique
15. Comment #76448 by irate_atheist on October 5, 2007 at 11:22 pm
Well, fuck my old boots. A shyster on the take. Who'd have thought it? Other Comments by irate_atheist
16. Comment #76459 by Ultraviolet G on October 6, 2007 at 12:05 am
Yawn...*What* a surprise..Can we just prepare a couple years of future news articles right now and save the trouble?
This just in: Pastor "Johnny Righteous" of "Foundation for American family values" has been exposed as throwing lavish drug parties featuring sex shows and underage male strippers with money culled from his congregation.
Next, the weather.
Other Comments by Ultraviolet G
17. Comment #76467 by Prieten on October 6, 2007 at 12:31 am
Another Okie has to give his two cents: everyone in Oklahoma knew Oral Roberts was a crook. As the Germans would say, "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree." I guess his children are carrying on his "good" works. The article mentions there is a giant sculpture on the campus of two praying hands. We Okies would say, if you watch those hands real closely for a while, you will see the thumbs rubbing the finger tips (hard to describe in words, but that is a gesture that signifies money).Other Comments by Prieten
18. Comment #76476 by Roger Stanyard on October 6, 2007 at 1:12 am
It doesn't surprise me at all that yet another "scandal" has broken out amongst the fundamentalists.However, we've got one nearer to home in Northern Ireland that involves "Dr" Ian Paisley, his son and the DUP.
It looks like it is DUP offial policy to teach creationism in Northern Ireland's schools although the party has kept mum about it. What is interesting though, is that it has been trying to get creationism promoted at the Giant's Causeway by handing over the vistor's centre to one of its members. The sums of money involved are around Ŗ20m which puts it well on a par with the Oral Roberts affair.
The British Centre for Science Education has a write up of recent events in Northern Ireland regarding creationism being taught in schools. That shows the connections with the Giant's Causeway affair.
It can be found at http://www.bcseweb.org.uk/index.php/Main/PaisleysPartyBacksCreationismInSchools
The BCSE was the first organisation to bring into the public domain the activities of the fundamentalist European Theological Seminary (ahead of William Crawley and BBC Radio NI). Professor Dawkins may well remember "debating" with David McConaghie on Sunday Sequence. McConaghie now looks to be one of the key four-six DUP people aiming to establish a theocracy in the province.
Details of ETS can be found at http://www.bcseweb.org.uk/index.php/Main/EuropeanTheologicalSeminary
It's background but we've also done a lot of investigative work on the fundamentalist Caleb Foundation and its role in pushing creationism in the province. McConaghie is deeply involved in this as well.
That can be found at http://www.bcseweb.org.uk/index.php/Main/CalebFoundation
What looks to be happening is that a core of puppet masters in the DUP are trying to create a fundamentalist theocratic state in Northern Ireland. They came into power last May; what is happening now looks to be the first two elements of the plan being "implemented".
Roger Stanyard British Centre for Science Education
Other Comments by Roger Stanyard
19. Comment #76479 by action bastard on October 6, 2007 at 1:19 am
Roberts doesn't seem to realize how serious these allegations are. Misuse of funds by a non-profit organization, academic fraud, unlawful job terminations, and possible underage sexual encounters by his wife. Criminal investigations could be forthcoming. I wonder if he plans to use god as his legal counsel?Btw, Ms Robert's status as "first lady" might need to be revoked. When I was in college any "lady" I called at 3am was by no means my first choice.
Other Comments by action bastard
20. Comment #76483 by Philip1978 on October 6, 2007 at 1:31 am
Too many jokes, not enough time!Husband to wife
"Darling, did you remember to donate last Sunday?"
"Its ok, I did it Orally!"
What the feck is going on with this world, does this man not know that 29 year old filthy minded people like my naughty self simply refuse to take him seriously with a name like that?!!
I shall use the fine wording from my facebook Shakespearean Insult Generator "Mr Oral, thou art a bat-fouling, onion-eyed malignancy!"
Tally Ho!
Philip
Other Comments by Philip1978
21. Comment #76491 by scottishgeologist on October 6, 2007 at 1:55 am
God appeared to him when he was reading a spy novel?! WTF?Well, apparently, God spoke to Graham Kendrick (You know the one who was guilty of that vile charismaniac anthem "Shine Jesus Shine"...
Hmmmmm... methinks there is a connection here.... "Oral hygiene?" Sorry, kids,....beeen a hard week....
Hey, Veronique "the goldfish are frisky" eh? Sounds like a line from Gerschwins "Summertime"
:-))))
SG
Other Comments by scottishgeologist
22. Comment #76539 by Northern Bright on October 6, 2007 at 5:57 am
Oral Roberts is 89 and lives in California. He holds the title of chancellor, but the university describes him as semi-retired, and his son presides over day-to-day operations on the campus
I'm sure we all feel totally confident that the appointment of Richard Roberts to this role was on the basis of a scrupulously fair, open and transparent selection procedure, and that it's just the merest coincidence that he's Oral Roberts' son. Never let it be said that we atheists are cynical about the behaviour of fundamentalist Christians.
Cornell Cross II, a senior from Burlington, Vt., said he is looking to transfer to another school because the scandal has "severely devalued and hurt the reputation of my degree."
Now, I don't like to be mean - no, really, I don't ;-) - but it does strike me that, if young Cornell was really that concerned about the reputation of his degree, he should perhaps have chosen a different university in the first place? Just a thought.
PS. Richard Morgan - Love the hymn. A BIG improvement on the original!
Other Comments by Northern Bright
23. Comment #76592 by Jeff Weskamp on October 6, 2007 at 11:45 am
The only thing that shocks me is that Lindsay Roberts is the one who has the interest in "underage males" and not Richard Roberts!Other Comments by Jeff Weskamp
24. Comment #76594 by Jeff Weskamp on October 6, 2007 at 11:49 am
The following section of the article brought two words to mind...."Mrs. Roberts who is a member of the board of regents and is referred to as ORU's 'first lady' on the university's Web site frequently had cell-phone bills of more than $800 per month, with hundreds of text messages sent between 1 a.m. to 3 a.m. to 'underage males who had been provided phones at university expense.'"
...and those words are "booty call!"
Other Comments by Jeff Weskamp
25. Comment #76602 by mother2eight on October 6, 2007 at 12:06 pm
Amazing how so many are ready to pounce on someone when they fall. No compassion. No mercy. No tears for those who made a mess of their lives and the lives of others.I do not defend what they've done. But I do shake my head and say, "Too bad. Too, too bad."
Other Comments by mother2eight
26. Comment #76614 by Northern Bright on October 6, 2007 at 12:42 pm
Amazing how so many are ready to pounce on someone when they fall. No compassion. No mercy. No tears for those who made a mess of their lives and the lives of others.
Are you serious, mother2eight? You want us to feel sorry for these people?
OK, let's give them the benefit of the doubt and acknowledge that nothing has yet been proven in a court of law. But if they've really done what it is alleged they have done (and let's face it, such corruption wouldn't be unprecedented in the world of high-profile Christian evangelists, would it?), you'd still want us to feel sorry for them?
If proven guilty, they would have lied, cheated, stolen, indulged in inappropriate relationships with minors, grossly deceived and conned people who had given money in good faith, and indulged in the crassest acts of blatant hypocrisy.
And evangelical Christians claim that atheists have no morality!
Other Comments by Northern Bright
27. Comment #76631 by _J_ on October 6, 2007 at 1:30 pm
Ah, happy day. Can this day get any better, I wonder?[Sighs contentedly]
mother2eight: I have to admire your temperament (perhaps you've had a lot of practice, if you really are a 'mother2eight'!). It is too bad. But, really, when someone spends a long time deliberately doing a lot of bad things, there is good reason to be pleased when justice catches up with them. Not to be pleased about the bad things, or about the sad mess they've made of their lives, but for the fact that and end is being put to it (and that, hopefully, a very worthwhile message is being sent to others).
Imagine if it were a rapist or serial killer. Sure, seeing them sent down doesn't take away the sadness and horror of their crimes. But there's also huge relief that they are being taken out of circulation.
I share with you in shaking my head sadly. But, at the same time: Ding, dong, the witch is dead!
Other Comments by _J_
28. Comment #76642 by mother2eight on October 6, 2007 at 2:55 pm
I am for justice.I am for these things coming to light.
I am appalled at the viciousness of some of these comments. One can comment on the situation without celebrating the failure of the individual involved.
Other Comments by mother2eight
29. Comment #76651 by Veronique on October 6, 2007 at 3:28 pm
23. Comment #76491 by scottishgeologistDoes sound a bit that way doesn't it:-). I vaguely recognised something as I was typing it.
The worrying thing is that this behaviour is about 5-6 weeks earlier than usual. They are racing up and down the creek, not interested in food. They are all of a frenzy:-). The males didn't lose their '5 o'clock shadow' (sexually active signature) from their cheeks and pectoral fins at all this year.
Another thing is that all the spring flowering bulbs have flowered already and are staring to die down. The winds didn't arrive in August. We have temperatures ranging between 29 32ēC and not much spring rain. We are in for a long, very hot and dry summer. Mullum is in the sub-tropics and, although we normally get some rain every month, summer rain is what flushes out the creeks and rivers and replenishes the ground water.
It's dire here SG. There is virtually no rain out west and farmer suicides are increasing. The government is offering drought relief, but that's just helping to shore up marginal farming land. It's not a long-term solution. There won't be any water allocations from the Murray River this season. Relocation and re-training can help, but, like all counties, we are reliant on our agriculture to actually live. There's talk of shifting our agricultural sector up north into the tropical lands that receive more rain and have permanent rivers. Of course, the sorts of crops that will grow in the tropics are different from those that grow in the Mediterranean climates further south.
I guess I'll get a serve from the climate deniers if they read this:-). Sorry to go OT like this.
And earlier on I fed a troll. Tut, tut, smacks wrist:-)
I just cannot believe that any parent would call a child Oral, can you? Bizarre. Ah well, at least another one bites the dust. That's a lyric too isn't it? Haha. I am becoming a cliché in my own breakfast time:-).
Cheers
V
Edit oh SG I clicked the offensive tab by mistake. Please forgive me. I don't know how to fix it. I have never done that before. Shit. I'll contact Josh:-(. Oh dear.
Other Comments by Veronique
30. Comment #76652 by kaiserkriss on October 6, 2007 at 3:28 pm
Mother2eight: You seem to be missing the point. These charlatans and hypocrites, who prey on the weak minded, are the first to point fingers and condemn others who do not follow their creed.They have basically become psychopaths who believe they are entitled to fleece their flock and live the good life, with no real compassion for their fellow man. Absolutely disgusting, and not worthy of any compassion.
In a sense they are no better than suicide bombers(realizing I've probably opened up a can of worms with that remark). jcw
Other Comments by kaiserkriss
31. Comment #76659 by Veronique on October 6, 2007 at 3:49 pm
mother2eightJust as well you didn't read the comment threads here and all over the world when Jerry Falwell died. You would have been more than appalled.
These people are parasites on the vulnerable and gullible. More and more of them are being shown up for what they are. They are cynical con-men with vapid wives who dip their varnish-nailed fingers into the collection plate. It's usually called stealing.
There's another one of these men (can't recall his name) who is languishing in gaol because he defrauded the IRS of tens of thousands of tax dollars.
These types of people are immoral; some (if not most) of them are amoral. They deserve exactly what they get at the hands of the law of the land.
Most posters here are relieved that, one by one, these fraudsters are being exposed and removed from their sphere of influence over the hearts and minds of children and adults. That's all.
You want to see the biggest send-up of all? Watch George Carlin on youtube - his skit on religion is something that everyone here can relate to.
Cheers
V
Other Comments by Veronique
32. Comment #76661 by kaiserkriss on October 6, 2007 at 3:53 pm
veronique: Well put, my sentiments exactly, wish I were so eloquent.Richard Morgan : LOVE your new Avatar!! jcw
Other Comments by kaiserkriss
33. Comment #76662 by BaronOchs on October 6, 2007 at 3:54 pm
There's another one of these men (can't recall his name) who is languishing in gaol because he defrauded the IRS of tens of thousands of tax dollars.
Kent Hovind?
Other Comments by BaronOchs
34. Comment #76664 by _J_ on October 6, 2007 at 3:55 pm
VeroniqueThere's another one of these men (can't recall his name) who is languishing in gaol because he defrauded the IRS of tens of thousands of tax dollars.
That'd be Kent Hovind.
Well-put post, by the way.
EDIT - Curse you, Ochs.
Other Comments by _J_
35. Comment #76682 by scottishgeologist on October 6, 2007 at 5:05 pm
Veronique - dont worry - I am sure it'll be OK and I wont be thrown into the horrid depths of trolldom....But back to preachers for a moment. I came across this news story a week ago - seems timely:
"Are Mega-Preachers Scandal-Prone?"
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1666552,00.html?imw=Y
Fascinating stuff!
SG
Other Comments by scottishgeologist
36. Comment #76711 by Veronique on October 6, 2007 at 9:13 pm
39. Comment #76682 by scottishgeologistWell SG, I am relieved. I emailed Josh anyway:-)
Yes, I read about dear Juanita and her perfect partner.
Of course they are scandal prone, my dear. I am sure that notwithstanding my previous comments about them being scammers, they fall into the trap of believing their own advertising.
It appears to me that as they become more wealthy, as their congregations tithe more and they dip into the takings more, they come to believe that they are bullet-proof and indestructible (same thing, I know, I just like the words:-)).
Even if someone could 'keep the bastards honest' (that has a particular political flavour in Australia, probably lost on you, but you get my drift), I would be unsure that they would slide back into the woodwork.
People like this seem to need to have public accolade; need to be fawned over, held in high esteem yadayada. They are very sick little bunnies and shouldn't (there's that word again that I say I never use:-)) be let within a ten foot pole, with gloves on, of ordinary people.
They either have or develop dominant personalities that sucker in the hoi poloi and strip them of cash. They need to have a following. They are psychiatrically disturbed people.
As Carlin says, quite beautifully, god needs money!! He always needs money!! Just can't handle money!!
You can tell that I have watched Carlin a bit. He always cheers me up:-)
I haven't yet made up my mind as to whether Richard Morgan's new avatar is cheering. She certainly has beautiful and very large knockers:-). But wait 'til she reaches my age and those gorgeous boobs form part of her waistline measurement. And the rest of her skin drops towards her ankles as gravity exerts its pull.
Ah, I am glad I got to 64 first:-)
V
And yes Baron and J, thanks it was Kent Hovind. I listened to some of his taped messages from his gaol on RRS. Sapient had quite a bit to do with exposing Hovind and son to the public at large. Good on him!!
Other Comments by Veronique
37. Comment #76714 by steveroot on October 6, 2007 at 9:44 pm
40. Comment #76707 by Richard Morgan on October 6, 2007 at 8:24 pm
Comment #76661 by kaiserkriss
Richard Morgan : LOVE your new Avatar!! jcw
Well, thank you, kaiserkriss.
Richard, are there hormone supplements involved here, or have some prayers been answered? ;-)
Steve
Other Comments by steveroot
38. Comment #76736 by Zeratul on October 7, 2007 at 12:35 am
I can say that I am very excited to hear the news. Just wondering who's next... ANAL Roberts, maybe?Other Comments by Zeratul
39. Comment #76740 by Veronique on October 7, 2007 at 12:57 am
43. Comment #76736 by ZeratulLove it:-) How exciting and visually interesting:-)
V
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40. Comment #76750 by stephenray on October 7, 2007 at 2:33 am
Thought I would browse the ORU website. No results for the search criteria 'evolution', so I went to the academic progammes page and picked 'Biology'.The Biology faculty has laudable aims: "Another goal is to train students to use scientific and critical thinking skills to accurately discriminate between scientific facts and pseudoscience."
(Ya think they have any particular 'pseudoscience' in mind?)
Hur. I wonder how successful they are...
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41. Comment #76790 by steveroot on October 7, 2007 at 9:27 am
44. Comment #76740 by Veronique on October 7, 2007 at 12:57 am
43. Comment #76736 by Zeratul
Love it:-) How exciting and visually interesting:-)
V
Well, doesn't every fifth (approximately) post here say religion is a load of crap? There's an example of whence it comes! ;-)
Steve
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42. Comment #76817 by scottishgeologist on October 7, 2007 at 11:20 am
Veronique,Ah, Carlin, and that "religion" sketch. One of the funniest ever done. Really hits the nail on the head. And i love his facial expressions a he is doing it.
Going back to the article, I think the big issue with a lot of these fundie mega-preachers is that they have become almost "god like " in themselves. I remember reading about how Benny Hinn would appear on stage to the sound of "How Great Thou Art".
Of course this would happen after the audience had beeen worked up into an altered state of consciousness by the mind numbing, "praise band" led charismatic nursery rhymes that these tossers get off on.
So it is very much a case of, as Lord Acton, famously said:
"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
And in the case of these b*stards, power is a thing they have aplenty, and they certainly abuse it. And eventually they get caught with their paws in the cookie jar.
Interestingly, I decided to check up on old Lord Acton as he was one of those theological awkward characters who casued a ruction or two. There is a wikipedia article here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dalberg-Acton,_1st_Baron_Acton#Famous_Sayings_of_Lord_Acton
Now the fascinating thing about this article is that it mentions how:
"He continued, however, to contribute articles to the North British Review, which, previously a Scottish Free Church organ"
!!!!!! Scottish Free Church!!!!!
You know, just when you are trying to erase such thoughts, along comes Wee Flea's church.
Actually, I shoudnt be in the least surprised - I was born and brought up in Scottish presbyterianism - it is , and remains, IMO, a classic example of "if you think you understand it, then you almost certainly dont!"
....Summertime... and the livin' is easy... fish are jumpin.....
Time to chill!
SG
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43. Comment #76821 by Corylus on October 7, 2007 at 11:30 am
Am I correct in thinking the Jerry Falwell's spawn have now taken over the running of Liberty University?(Someone please tell me if I have got the wrong end of the stick)
One hopes that someone is keeping an eye on them...
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44. Comment #76822 by Northern Bright on October 7, 2007 at 11:32 am
!!!!!! Scottish Free Church!!!!!
You know, just when you are trying to erase such thoughts, along comes Wee Flea's church.
SG There's an article in their magazine this month called "The Joy of Calvinism". Now THERE'S a phrase you won't hear very often! :-)
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45. Comment #76831 by scottishgeologist on October 7, 2007 at 12:15 pm
NorthernBright"The Joy of Calvinism".
'kin 'ell !!!!!
You know, I have often wondered if religiosity is actually a form of mental illness. Titles like this just confirm it.
What on earth is next, "Calvinism is cool" ? Or maybe that should be delivered by some goateee bearded, pony-tail wearing "youth worker" in a sort of leet-speak "C41v1n15m is k3wl, dude..." manner - can just see that one catching on.....
:-))
SG
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46. Comment #76834 by Veronique on October 7, 2007 at 12:28 pm
48. Comment #76821 by CorylusIt was shortly after the sperm donor died, that I read two of the spawn had taken over the running of Liberty U.
So, I think you are correct. Can't remember where I read that though. There was so much flying around in newspapers at the time:-)
Cheers
V
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47. Comment #76838 by GBG on October 7, 2007 at 12:47 pm
I knew the christians had a penchant for underage boys, But it's the first time i have heard of a female christian doing it. SHOCKING! Other Comments by GBG
48. Comment #76843 by scottishgeologist on October 7, 2007 at 1:03 pm
GBG said:
But it's the first time i have heard of a female christian doing it. SHOCKING!
Ahh, but cast your mind back to the mid 70s, does anyone remember Joyce Mckinney? From wikipedia:
"In 1977 a divorced former American Southern belle turned Mormon turned kidnapper, Ms Joyce McKinney, pursued her ex-lover Kirk Anderson to England where she and a male accomplice (Keith May) forced him at gunpoint into a car, took him to a remote cottage and tied him to a bed where she made love to Mr Anderson over the course of 3 days. She was arrested, but fled the UK after arraignment at Epsom Magistrates' Court, subsequently beccoming a tabloid sensation.
" I loved Kirk so much, I would have skied down Mount Everest in the nude with a carnation up my nose. "
Joyce McKinney, Cassell Companion to Quotations: P. 271 Section 1 "
And absolutely TONS of luris detail and stuff here:
http://www.trashfiction.co.uk/mckinney.html
You simply CANNOT make that sort of stuff up. It is so amazing, it just HAS to be real. I reckon this is the "gold standard" of religious scandal. An absolute beauty.
And I have just realised that was 30 years ago. FFS, 30 years?! Why no celebration? Deserves to be much better known!
:-)))))))))))
SG
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49. Comment #76862 by Corylus on October 7, 2007 at 1:54 pm
Cheers V - glad I didn't imagine it.SG - That McGinney woman sounds quite the sensation. I must say that I have never heard of her before. (Although I admit that in the mid 70's I was rather preoccupied with sucking on rusks and wailing :-).
Will look her up.
Other Comments by Corylus
50. Comment #77426 by skeptic of Skeptics on October 9, 2007 at 9:25 am
The thing that I have found about Christians, is that they're human beings. And every human being is vulnerable to deception, in one form or another.However, that doesn't make Christianity a deception.
Just a bunch of people - some are deceived - some not. Some truly believe - some do not.
In the end, we'll all answer for our current justifications for our own misbeliefs, doubts, and violations of the law.
There's only one way out of being punished for them - and it's not "Christianity." It's having a savior - and true repenance (the word repentance actually means "turning the other way") from our misdeeds & wrong thinking.
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1. Comment #76373 by ThePuckishOne on October 5, 2007 at 4:26 pm
(sigh)Is anyone even the least surprised?
OT: Hooray, my first comment! :)
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