1. Comment #78540 by obscured by clouds on October 13, 2007 at 2:18 pm

It looks good, great job!

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2. Comment #78554 by Aaron on October 13, 2007 at 3:11 pm

I have so much respect for that woman.

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3. Comment #78557 by Donald on October 13, 2007 at 3:29 pm

I've read her book, but I enjoyed hearing this talk as well.

I liked the moment about 9 minutes in, when Ayaan, feeling obliged to be politically correct and criticise "Fundamentalist Islam" stutters and then simplifies her statement to just "Islam". There is a ripple of applause, and she says with a smile, "I always stutter when I try to be politically correct."

Later Ayaan talks about reading the Koran after Sept 11 2001 (as did so many of us!) as a response to her disquiet at the justification offered by Bin Laden for killing innocents by flying planes into the twin towers, and how she found that allah did indeed sanctify the killing of those *we* consider innocents. [Because the god of the koran considers all non-believers to be guilty (and deserving of eternal fire). They are therefore *not* innocent and allah hates unbelievers.]

She tell how she read the books of Spinoza, Popper and Bertrand Russell, and found a new world of knowledge and thought (compared to Islamic teaching). She remarks that she found violence right in the heart of the Koran, in black and white.

Another key point of her talk was at about 17 minutes. She remarks that secular states do not forbid religion, but that they allow different faiths, including those who not have any faith in god, to co-exist. However, she says that acceptance of this secular framework by people from some faiths is impossible because it clashes too directly with their belief system. [Right! This is perhaps the largest problem we face in the west.]

On morality she says: "no god, no religion, no organised system of faith, is better at dictating right and wrong than that compass we have in our heads and the instincts that are coded into our genes". That's a powerful and succinct way to say such an important truth!

Another sound bite "I see much good come from man, but very little from god." How true.


[ Her talk made a stark contrast for me with the talk today by Gordon Brown, UK prime minister, who delivered a personal message of Eid al-Fitr warm wishes to UK muslims http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5NjnqKUTa8&feature=dir without a trace of a stutter, but what looked to me like false smiles inserted intermittently. It was yet another example of a western politician making an obsequious bow to religious issues instead of sticking to secular matters. Religious influence grows ever deeper and more pervasive. Did you notice his statement "Islamic science philosophy and thought have enriched our lives over many centuries"? A bit like saying that that the horse and cart enriched our transport systems. ]



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4. Comment #78576 by encleadus on October 13, 2007 at 4:24 pm

Excellent! Off to buy her book...

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5. Comment #78589 by bayareadude on October 13, 2007 at 5:17 pm

Ayaan Hirsi Ali was, by far, the best speaker at this event. She was gracious and very kind at the book-signing table, as well, allowing me to come behind and take a picture with her, even though her guards looked on with furrowed brows. To think she's been abandoned by those in charge in the Netherlands is just beyond belief.

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6. Comment #78594 by Quine on October 13, 2007 at 5:35 pm

I am quickly sending the link to this video to everyone I know.

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7. Comment #78614 by Spinoza on October 13, 2007 at 9:39 pm

The Theoligico Political Treatise of my namesake philosopher is quite possibly the most brilliant dethroning ever manifested upon this earth.

If you are to read Infidel, I urge you also to read Spinoza's TTP.

You will not be disappointed.

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8. Comment #78616 by toomanytribbles on October 13, 2007 at 9:52 pm

i'm struck with ali's presence. the image is of a frightened child and powerful, courageous mind in one.

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9. Comment #78617 by Quine on October 13, 2007 at 10:05 pm

Here is a link to an electronic form of Spinoza's TTP.

Edit:
Spinoza, the link you found does look better. I also agree to recommend:
Spinoza, Theological-Political Treatise, Samuel Shirley, translator, second edition (Indianapolis: Hackett Publishing, 2001)


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10. Comment #78620 by Spinoza on October 13, 2007 at 10:38 pm

Ugh, Quine, that link is awful (there are some wacked out Spinoza sites that totally misunderstand him and have hard-to-follow versions of his works (probably with lots of typos and bad translations too).

This one is better: http://www.philosophyarchive.com/text.php?era=1600-1699&author=Spinoza&text=A%20Theologico-Political%20Treatise

Though it too has an idiosyncratic style of display and margin.

I actually, rather, recommend getting a PROPER, MODERN translation off Amazon... relatively cheaply... The Curley translation is the best, second best (and my favourite) is the Shirley translation.

Elwes is a bit dated, which is why you find his free on the internet.

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11. Comment #78661 by Crazymalc on October 14, 2007 at 6:32 am

What a truly beautiful woman in so many ways

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12. Comment #78725 by drive1 on October 14, 2007 at 2:14 pm

Even more impressive was the Q&A session. When she recounts her father's advice that, as an atheist, she should keep a low profile and not speak of it to anyone .. the shy smile, the reaction of the audience .. made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. What an astonishing person.

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13. Comment #78772 by nattyadams on October 14, 2007 at 9:48 pm

Yet another reminder:

the Petition to Protect Ayaan Hirsi Ali can be found at:

http://www.petitiononline.com/hirsiali


Thanks,

Nathaniel Adams

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14. Comment #78980 by Spock on October 15, 2007 at 4:16 pm

Since Infidel came out Ayaan has been getting a larger fan base. Good for her!

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15. Comment #78993 by Atticus_of_Amber on October 15, 2007 at 6:12 pm

What was with her frequently asking "can I go now?"

Was that security related? I heard there was a specific threat that she would actually be killed during the conference and so there had been some misdirection as to whether she was actually going to attend.

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16. Comment #79012 by HappyPrimate on October 15, 2007 at 9:58 pm

Thanks for the posting of this talk. She is a hero of mine. Her book Infidel was so very enlightening. If you have not read it, please do. I have passed my copy to other women and all have said it was fantastic.

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17. Comment #79093 by BeyondBelief on October 16, 2007 at 5:09 am

Paraphrasing Ayaan: "Activism is inevitable."

I love how blunt and direct she was in saying, essentially, you can whine about the way the game is played, but unless you get off your butt and get in the game, you will be steamrolled by the groups willing to "proselytize."

Now, "proselytize" might not be the best word choice, but I believe her intended meaning is that we must broadcast our ideas and position. In the "marketplace" of ideas, atheism is fighting for shelf-space alongside the Twinkies and Doritos of religion, self-help, and other potentially tasty thoughts that ultimately leave you empty and out of shape.

But who is to blame if there is no atheism on the shelf for the average consumer to choose? It's great to have Richard, Sam, Daniel, Ayaan, Christopher and others be the global face of the product, but the shelves don't get stocked without local distribution networks.

If you don't want to "proselytize" then just get out and put your atheism on the shelves for others to see and perhaps choose.

I'm afraid that, much like recent Republican Senators have loudly and publicly decried the sins they are most guilty of, I talk a good game, but don't (yet) walk the walk. I do not get out and publicly stock the shelves in the marketplace of ideas... in neighborhoods that most need it. The marketplace here on this forum has PLENTY of atheism to choose from.

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18. Comment #79225 by evolvingalways on October 16, 2007 at 2:13 pm

Great woman enjoyed her book and was very impressed by her talk hope to see more of her in the future.

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19. Comment #79369 by evdsteen on October 17, 2007 at 4:51 am

"To think she's been abandoned by those in charge in the Netherlands is just beyond belief."
This needs to be seen in perspective. Ayaan Hirsi Ali, upon applying for refugee status in the Netherlands lied about what happened to her in her homeland, not to protect herself from persecution, but to exaggerate her plight, and thus improve her chances of being admitted. Any refugee who would do that, either in the Netherlands or elsewhere, would be rejected, and rightly so. So, however sad it is, and however laudable her ideas and ideals are (and I fully support those), the Netherlands government was right in not giving her preference treatment.

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20. Comment #79721 by Teratornis on October 18, 2007 at 10:22 am

In reply to comment #78557 by Donald:

Did you notice (Gordon Brown's) statement "Islamic science philosophy and thought have enriched our lives over many centuries"? A bit like saying that that the horse and cart enriched our transport systems.

While we are recounting the contributions of Islamic science and philosophy, however brief and rudimentary the list may be, at least we can use the handy numbering system we stole from them (which they in turn stole from the Hindus). I can't imagine western science would be farther along now with Roman numerals. (Credit where credit is due.)

When Prof. Dawkins calls evolution "algorithmic," he could as well be calling it Al-Khwarizmi-ic. It is mildly ironic to disparage the Islamic contribution while using the very machine which represents the ultimate elaboration of it.

As we all know, after a few centuries of intellectual flowering in its early days, Islam sunk into a Dark Age from which is has yet to emerge, and the intellectual center shifted to Europe, where the cognitive elite got busy with the long difficult work of extending the ideas they stole from the Greeks, and the inventions they stole from the Chinese, always keeping track with the numbering they stole from Al-Khwarizmi and friends.

And of course politicians say whatever it takes to curry favor with the electorate. There is overwhelimingly powerful selection against anything approximating complete honesty in politics, much as there is selection against complete honesty in the analogous realm of courting. Political discourse reflects the average level of thinking among voters, almost none of whom have trained to think critically. Voters support the politicians they like, and they tend to like the politicians who flatter them. It's much like in courting, when a male suitor tries to win the favor of a young lady - he does not generally begin with a critical survey of her errors and defects. She probably won't stand for that until after she falls in love with him. (It can hardly be coincidence that many prodigiously successful male politicians have also been prodigiously successful womanizers.)

Refs.:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Style_over_substance_fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_spite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithm#Etymology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glittering_generality

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21. Comment #79726 by Teratornis on October 18, 2007 at 10:38 am

OK, so why doesn't Ayaan Hirsi Ali come to the United States and get elected to some office? She's brainy, articulate, telegenically beautiful, and blessed with a hypnotic voice. (Who would you rather watch giving a speech on C-SPAN - some jowly pasty old boy schlub, or Ayaan Hirsi Ali? Duh. Whatever she's selling, I think I'm buying.) She'd have instant constituencies with her multi-culti heritage and feminist cred - like the female electability equivalent of a Barak Obama. Surely she could get herself elected to some office with sufficient stature to rate official protection here, and Islamic terrorists seem to have more difficulty operating on U.S. soil to begin with, particularly after the 9/11 wake-up call.

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22. Comment #79970 by Pantore on October 19, 2007 at 10:24 am

ROFLMAO
She isn't an atheist at all...
Ayaan the christian-zionist is back once again.

Ayaan for US president, march on christian-zionist soldiers.

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23. Comment #79985 by Monera Man on October 19, 2007 at 1:05 pm

So she just took after the meeting, with
no word to her "friends" or her masters at
the AEI?

I call "publicity stunt" on this mess.

Keep after them Pantore...If she's associated
with the AEI she's a manipulator pure and
simple.

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24. Comment #79986 by Monera Man on October 19, 2007 at 1:06 pm

That is- So she just took off after the meeting..

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25. Comment #80206 by Ashley1319 on October 20, 2007 at 6:02 pm

Hirsi Ali is so wonderful, I've heard a lot about her, and now I'll have to read her book too. I would indeed like to see her in some sort of political office in the U.S.

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26. Comment #80348 by robotaholic on October 21, 2007 at 11:58 am

It is wonderful and inspirational to see someone who has overcome massive oppression. I also have had that conflict within me between secularism and religious death cult tribalism. I'm so glad she got away and extremely happy that she is crushing so many stereotypes. Though, her struggle was more difficult than mine, it's wonderful to see her smile.

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27. Comment #82961 by bayareadude on October 28, 2007 at 11:06 am

19. Comment #79369 by evdsteen
22. Comment #79970 by Pantore

Each of the above comments was posted by someone in the Netherlands. Several more comments like these are made by Dutch members below the essay by Hitchens and Rushdie (see http://tinyurl.com/282xp4).

34. Comment #77646 by tijnvanlier
35. Comment #77654 by rokort
41. Comment #77680 by Pantore (very anti-American)
42. Comment #77684 by hfaber (a voice of reason)


In each case (except "hfaber"), the comments are both anti-Ayaan and more than a bit nationalistic. Several are also anti-Semitic. Not surprising when you consider that more Jews were turned over to the Nazis by the Dutch during WWII than by any other country (regardless of the story of Anne Frank...or maybe she's an example?).

I get the feeling that the Dutch (like all European nations) are quite far behind in their enlightenment regarding race/ethnicity/religion. The European nations thumb their noses at the U.S. as they watch all the issues unfold on their televisions, but fail to realize that they're living in the calm before such storms. The Brits, for instance, are beginning to see what generations of oppression of Muslims brings (e.g., car bombings, attacks in the subway, etc.). The Dutch and the French seem unable to shake loose their hatred of Jews and Muslims long enough to allow them a place at the political table. And anyone - like Ayaan Hirsi Ali - who's brave enough to point out their flaws is thrown to the lions.

Sad and ironic all around.

BY THE WAY, ONLINE PETITIONS ARE USELESS, SO PLEASE STOP WASTING YOUR TIME WITH THAT THING!!
Read more here: http://tinyurl.com/2cnado

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28. Comment #84459 by Dajestar on November 2, 2007 at 4:43 am

"The Dutch and the French seem unable to shake loose their hatred of Jews and Muslims long enough to allow them a place at the political table. And anyone - like Ayaan Hirsi Ali - who's brave enough to point out their flaws is thrown to the lions."

I don't agree with the Dutch people that have made the previous comments, but I don't think you can state that ALL Dutch are behind in the enlightenment regarding race/ethnicity/religion. Since we became independant of Spain, The Netherlands have always been a place where freedom of religion has been guaranteed for all. There is no general hatred of Jews and Muslims at all here

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29. Comment #84473 by seingalt on November 2, 2007 at 5:58 am

'I get the feeling that the Dutch (like all European nations) are quite far behind in their enlightenment regarding race/ethnicity/religion.'

'The Dutch and the French seem unable to shake loose their hatred of Jews and Muslims long enough to allow them a place at the political table.'

lol
Uhm, I don't know which countries ur talking about, but your not talking about the Netherlands...(by the way: you do know how many millions of people your trying to generalize here right??)

Anyways: I read many comments here and I think we are so far of. What is the point of her speech? We westerns listening to an (ex)muslim woman about her past, laughing at all the strange ways they have in their culture, patting eachother on the back saying: ow ow ow, we are sooooooo enlightend!!! So superior....bla bla bla

I am sorry, I don't know what the **** everyone is talking about. Bravery? courage? She has (like many others before her and after) a bad personal experience with a religion and she's now taking a crap on everything and everyone that has something to do with Islam. very enlightend.

Ayaan is the ultimate 'wank-job' for western dominant society. Now we have a muslim saying: Yes!! u are so much better! they are savage!

So I repeat: Bla bla bla...

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30. Comment #86410 by matt_shute-07 on November 9, 2007 at 7:05 am

Ayaan Hirsi Ali was the best speaker at the conference, imo.

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31. Comment #87109 by latsot on November 11, 2007 at 8:14 am

> Bravery? courage?

She gave up her friends, family and security to stand up for what she believed. She risked much, including her personal safety and suffered a great deal, including isolation.

> enlightened

What she believed was that people shouldn't be rendered powerless by tradition.

Yep, I think I'm going to go right ahead and call her brave, courageous and enlightened.

r

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32. Comment #87244 by seingalt on November 11, 2007 at 3:01 pm

>What she believed was that people shouldn't be rendered powerless by tradition.

Who does not (at least at Dawkins.net)?

>She gave up her friends, family and security to stand up for what she believed

well, security yes. The rest she was forced to leave because of the civil war in somalie 1992. She fake-married a cousin from Canada, but stayed in Holland.

In holland she went to the shelter places for women who were beaten by their husbands. Ayaan chose especially the ones where were muslim-women. She went there and told them it was all and only because of Islam that they were beaten by their men. Which is complete nonsense of course. (I assume you know a little of psychology) The women by the way did not appriciate it. (their men were evil, not the book they used for an exuse)

You want to tell me that taking away from these women the last source of peace and stability (their religion) because of personal hatred, is enlightend??? That blaming an entire religion and every muslim for the fact that people in her 'stone-age vilagers' cut of her clitoris is enlightend?
My friend, you have not even began seeing the never ending nuances within cultures/religions and the sporadical idiot, which can be found anywhere.

We have have issues with Muslims. Which is for the greater part OUR fault. (long explanation) My point is: It's about Muslims, because idiot-culures (as savage as the one Ayaan describes) you van find (almost) everywhere.

Yes, Ayaan, thank u, you are so brave! You tell us exactly what our self-rightious ears what to hear!

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