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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Believe it or not, courtesy counts

by Carlin Romano, The Australian

Thanks to Gordon Wong for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22674742-27702,00.html

Sacred texts, argues Carlin Romano, deserve to be approached politely even by those who see no merit in claims about their divine origins

IN an essay in US magazine The Nation about the wave of successful books vaunting atheism, critic Daniel Lazare wrote: "For a long time, religion had been doing quite nicely as a kind of minor entertainment. Christmas and Easter were quite unthinkable without it, not to mention Hanukkah and Passover. But then certain enthusiasts took things too far by crashing airliners into office towers in the name of Allah, launching a global crusade to rid the world of evil, and declaring the jury still out on Darwinian evolution. As a consequence, religion now looks nearly as bad as royalism did in the late 18th century."

That may sound predictably snide coming from the wontedly secular The Nation, but take a look at a middle-of-the-road piece of journalism, an Associated Press article last May by religion writer Rachel Zoll. In the article, headlined "Angry atheists are hot authors", Zoll describes the success of such books as "a sign of widespread resentment among non-believers over the influence of religion in the world".

She quotes Christopher Hitchens, whose God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything rocketed to No1 on The New York Times' bestseller list in its first week out of the block. "There is something like a change in the zeitgeist," Hitchens told Zoll, positing "a lot of people, in (the US) in particular, who are fed up with endless lectures by bogus clerics and endless bullying". Zoll writes that atheists such as Hitchens are tired of believers "using fairytales posing as divine scripture to justify their lust for power".

Atheism is on a roll, if not a holy roll, in the book world. Last year philosopher Daniel Dennett published Breaking the Spell, British scientist Richard Dawkins followed with The God Delusion and writer Sam Harris has been grabbing middlebrow readers with his The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation. The second wave late this year comes at the culture under the banner of secularism, even under the gentler light of irony. Canadian philosopher Charles Taylor, in his massive A Secular Age, seeks to understand what that title means for us; he's so ecumenical and thoughtful in his struggle to understand what he dubs secularity that you may not realise he's a believing Catholic. Columbia University's Mark Lilla, in The Stillborn God, offers a rich intellectual etiology of how religion and politics realigned themselves within "political theology" to usher in our putatively secular modernity. From France, Olivier Roy's Secularism Confronts Islam acknowledges the hostility to Islam marked by its title, while arguing against it. Atheism now flourishes even in the form of the gift book, the kind stackable by the register, as in Joan Konner's collection of quotations, The Atheist's Bible.

For almost everyone involved in the believer-atheist debate, atheism consists in denying the existence of God, then philosophically evaluating the consequences in the spirit of a contemporary Nietzsche or grand inquisitor. Yet many of these books tend to ignore a crucial question: What should the atheist's position be on sacred texts?

Think of it as another "death of the author" problem. The first difficulty for atheists is glaringly apparent. They can't deny the existence of sacred texts, at least as texts. They can only deny to such texts the quality of sacredness. That behoves atheists, then, to have a clear definition of the sacred -- "something related to the holy", say, or "something worthy of extreme respect" -- and also a clear definition of text or book. Many atheists who have a relatively clear idea of what they mean by God when they reject his, her or its existence, possess little knowledge of the sacred texts that animate religions. Indeed, Jacques Berlinerblau begins his book The Secular Bible: Why Nonbelievers Must Take Religion Seriously by declaring: "In all but exceptional cases, today's secularists are biblically illiterate."

Exploring what these books are as texts, then, is the first step towards pondering the atheist's proper behaviour in regard to them. Happily, one can get help from non-sacred texts, as critical scholarship on sacred texts, which includes what was once widely known as biblical criticism, continues apace.

For instance, Scribal Culture and the Making of the Hebrew Bible by Karel van der Toorn, president of the University of Amsterdam, insists on the Bible as the product of a professional scribal elite, specifically the scribal workshop of the Second Temple in the period 500BC-200BC. Another recent study, The Voice, the Word, the Books: The Sacred Scripture of the Jews, Christians and Muslims by F.E. Peters, professor of Middle Eastern and Islamic studies at New York University, looks at what Peters calls the "human fingerprints" all over these texts.

Van der Toorn's analysis of the data leads him to conclude that "the modern concept of books is unsuited to describe the written production from the ancient Near East ... To define the Bible as a collection of books, as implied in the Greek designation biblia, is an anachronism. The Bible is a repository of tradition." It is, he says, "the result of a series of scribal interventions".

Peters, who examines three sacred texts, describes a long process at whose end "are now three books or, rather, more precisely, three collections of books or pieces. An impartial observer ... might call them edited books, which makes believers uneasy since the term 'edited' calls attention ... to the fact that if all these words had a divine author, they also had some very human editors whose errant thumbprints are all over scripture."

Peters brings this disenchantment of the sacred even to the Koran, which Muslims believe is "totally and simultaneously true". Among the human fingerprints are the traces of "anonymous editors who, we are told by Muslim tradition, collected the scattered records of Mohammed's revelations, added the headings now prefaced to each sura, and then arranged the suras in the order they now appear ... As all concede, it is certainly not the order in which the revelations were made public in Mecca or Medina."

Peters adds that "once the suras are reordered even in the most approximate chronological terms, immediately a new problem arises. On the face of it, many, if not most, of the suras appear to be composites ... that is, periscopes from different times and settings have been stitched together to form a single and quite artificial sura unit."

Such lack of credence in the God-authored notion of sacred texts is widespread not only among scholars but even in casual book-reviewing culture. Here, turning to the New Testament, consider the beginning of a review on Powells.com of another recent book, titled Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why by Bart D. Ehrman. "Those who call the King James Version of the Bible the unerring word of God have a slight problem," reviewer Doug Brown writes. "The New Testament of the KJV was translated into English from a version of the Greek New Testament that had been collected from 12th-century copies by Erasmus. Where Erasmus couldn't find Greek manuscripts, he translated to Greek from the Latin Vulgate (which itself had been translated from Greek back in the fourth century). Here the problem splits into two problems. First, Jesus spoke Aramaic; his actual words, never recorded, were only rendered in Greek in the original gospels. Thus, the KJV consists of Jesus's words twice refracted through the prism of translation. Second, Erasmus's Greek New Testament was based on handwritten copies of copies of copies ... going back over a millennium, and today is considered one of the poorer Greek New Testaments."

Consider this just one example of a sacred text treated almost as a farcical text in regard to its having a single, coherent, intentional, shaping, authorial, divine mind behind it.

Is the Bible, in one counting, the 66 books of the Protestant Bible, the 73 books of the Catholic Bible or the 77 books of the Eastern Orthodox Bible?

After a litany of examples of intercopy disagreements, scribal clarifications, arbitrary decisions on what is canonical and what is apocryphal, and putative scribal addenda such as the controversial last 12 verses of Mark (16:9-20), with their references to snake handling and speaking in tongues, it is difficult to think of such texts as sacred, as opposed to much-handled compilations put together over time by committee. Writes Brown: "In many respects, the Bible was the world's first Wikipedia article."

Religious true believers naturally possess arguments against some of these considerations and against the overarching conclusion that so-called sacred texts are not sacred. They may want to argue that sacred texts are the handiwork of God; directly dictated, as in the Koran; communicated more indirectly, as in the Old and New Testaments; or, as one modern hermeneutic strategy holds, inelegantly played out through generations of editors and copyists in a messy process, like Darwinian evolution, but with God the entity whose flick of a finger started the ball rolling. None of these, however, is the conclusion of an atheist. If it is the proper behaviour of atheists in the face of sacred texts that interests us, we must work from the conclusion that such texts are not sacred in the sense of being authorised and fact-checked by God.

The next question is thus whether sacred texts are sacred in any other sense than that they're God's handiwork. I say they are. Sacred means not only related to God but also set apart in a particular way, worthy of uncommon respect, not open to easy violation. How atheists react to sacred texts, I submit, properly belongs as much to the history of etiquette as to that of philosophy or theology.

Let me explain. Much of the believer-atheist debate about God or sacred texts takes place on printed pages, not at marriage receptions or in doctors' offices or during water-cooler conversations. We tend to be friction-averse in these settings. When we think, as intellectuals, of how atheists and believers should behave, or do behave, we often invoke the printed-page model of no-holds-barred assertion of truth and belief, of argument and counter-argument, regardless of the consequences. But there's no obvious reason the punch-counterpunch paradigm of the page should dominate our discussion of sacred texts.

Not all secularly inclined intellectuals agree. Berlinerblau, for instance, says the goal of his book is "to outline a coherent non-theological, non-apologetic paradigm for the study of ancient scriptures", while making plain that "the peculiar way in which the Bible was composed in antiquity makes it far too contradictory and incoherent a source for public-policy decisions in modernity". He seems to feel that such a goal requires an enormously aggressive critical spirit and focus on truth in sacred texts. He writes: "We are bound by honour to cast aspersions on the integrity and historical reliability of holy documents. A scholarly exegete reads such work in heckle mode. He or she cannot accept that the Bible is the infallible word of God as mediated by mortals (as the secularly religious and most biblical scholars often contend), nor the distortion of the word of God (as some radical theologians have charged). The objective existence of God -- as opposed to the subjective perception of him -- is not a legitimate variable in scholarly analysis. The Hebrew Bible/Old Testament is a human product tout court."

This strikes me as machoism pretending to be scholarly integrity. Why can't atheists see sacred texts as sacred to believers and behave respectfully when not provoked? It is simply not true, in a normal, etiquette-infused vision of life, that we think truth must be stated at every time and in every context. We lie to people in small ways every day to make interactions gentler and less tense, and to be kind to others. Why shouldn't a similar gentleness and desire to avoid hurtful comments inform atheists when they write about books that many hold sacred?

The most familiar rebuke to this rears its head regularly in the most scathing, sarcastic and popular of the atheist wave, Hitchens's God is Not Great. It is that believers in the God-given authority of sacred texts are "ultimately incapable" of leaving non-believers alone. Religion, writes Hitchens, "does not, and in the long run cannot, be content with its own marvellous claims and sublime assurances. It must seek to interfere with the lives of non-believers, or heretics, or adherents of other faiths. It may speak about the bliss of the next world, but it wants power in this one. This is only to be expected. It is, after all, wholly man-made."

The cosmopolitan atheist of today -- the well-educated secularist steeped in the histories of various faiths, as well as the carnage they've produced back then and now -- can't easily toss off Hitchens's point. Polite respect ends when believers insist on sacred texts as God's authorisation of those believers to regulate, suppress or punish the behaviour of non-believers. In such situations, the atheist's politeness goes out of the window because the believer has thrown his politeness out of the window first. Is there anything as impolite as forcing one's moral rules on another because they supposedly come from a divine being whose existence the other doesn't accept?

As a result, we get the predominant tones in which atheists have assessed sacred texts over the centuries: anger, disrespect, contempt, sarcasm, insult, dismissal, even pity. Consider three examples.

"The Bible," sighed Voltaire. "That is what fools have written, what imbeciles command, what rogues teach, and young children are made to learn by heart."

"As to the book called the Bible," thundered Thomas Paine, "it is blasphemy to call it the word of God. It is a book of lies and contradictions, and a history of bad times and bad men."

And, as nasty wrapper, there is A.A. Milne's point. "The Old Testament," he claimed, "is responsible for more atheism, agnosticism, disbelief, call it what you will, than any book ever written: it has emptied more churches than all the counter-attractions of cinema, motor bicycle, and golf course."

Harsh stuff. Yet the very sophisticated understanding of history and society that often justifies the atheist's snappishness in such remarks should also lead them not to stir conflicts of believer and unbeliever unnecessarily. Because sophistication implies an equal grasp of etiquette and tolerance as a bulwark of civilised, non-violent life together on the part of believers and non-believers.

In that respect, Taylor, Lilla and Roy's second wave of books wisely pay little direct attention to sacred texts, focusing more on how believers have behaved than on their authorising documents.

That's all to the good. In advanced, progressive, tolerant societies, we also don't go up to strangers and tell them that they're ugly, that their children are repulsive, that their clothes don't match, that they need a bath, that the leisure activity they're engaged in is stupid and a waste of time. In the same way, atheists should not, unprovoked, go on and on about how sacred texts lack God's imprimatur. And believers should not blithely go after atheists. If this sounds like the credo of an American -- an odd creature of history who may be an atheist or believer -- the plea is guilty. One can, of course, line up the bolstering high-culture quotations on this side too, against the belligerent atheists.

Schopenhauer's proviso that politeness is "a tacit agreement that people's miserable defects, whether moral or intellectual, shall on either side be ignored and not made the subject of reproach". Even Eric Hoffer's lovely line that "rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength".

The simple answer, then, to how atheists should respond to sacred texts is: politely, if possible, employing all the wry ambiguity book critics use when awkwardly trapped with the author or admirer of a book about which they have reservations.

"It's really quite amazing," one may say, or: "You know, I was just reading it the other day; it's as good as ever."

But when believers start to use sacred texts to oppress, the atheist must attack and reject the divine aspect of their books, out of self-defence and because it interferes with the individual's freedom of conscience and behaviour. Some things, after all, are sacred.

The Chronicle of Higher Education

Carlin Romano, critic at large for The Chronicle and literary critic for The Philadelphia Inquirer, teaches philosophy and media theory at the University of Pennsylvania.

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1. Comment #83962 by mmurray on October 31, 2007 at 10:58 pm

 avatar
In the same way, atheists should not, unprovoked, go on and on about how sacred texts lack God's imprimatur.


We have been provoked.



Michael

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2. Comment #83964 by Zakie Chan on October 31, 2007 at 11:21 pm

 avatarIn my experience, people that I have convinced to change their minds about God has not come from passionate debate or intense arguing. It has ALWAYS been from just calmly discussing the issues.

As soon as someone gets defensive (in anything), they close up and wont consider anything you have said.

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3. Comment #83965 by robotaholic on October 31, 2007 at 11:25 pm

 avatar"""""Why can't atheists see sacred texts as sacred to believers and behave respectfully when not provoked? """"


-i am tired of religion and supposed holy texts getting a free pass- they have for hundreds of years - in the face of glaring contradictions, it's time they were evaluated publically for what they are- bullshit

Sacred - dedicated or set apart for the service or worship of a deity b: devoted exclusively to one service or use (as of a person or purpose)
2 a: worthy of religious veneration : holy b: entitled to reverence and respect
3: of or relating to religion : not secular or profane

I don't recognize any text as sacred.

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4. Comment #83966 by Quine on October 31, 2007 at 11:28 pm

 avatarIf you write/say "sacred text" you have given them the point before you get started. I use "scripture" without "sacred" or "holy." It is common to all religions (among peoples who have writing). Try rereading the article with "scripture" swapped for "sacred text" and you will get the change of feeling.

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5. Comment #83968 by RainDear on October 31, 2007 at 11:47 pm

Well, it's not a bad article. But, once again, it is sad to see that this religious apologetic apparently hasn't read the books he criticizes.

Hitchens may be a bit rough on the literal merits of the holy books, but at least RD's God Delusion makes several points on how essential the Bible is for English language, for one thing. And RD actually uses a lot of biblical quotes, quite skillfully.

So, how can mr. Romano say "these books tend to ignore a crucial question: What should the atheist's position be on sacred texts?" Does he expect the atheist writers to come up with some kind of common, official dogma on how we should all think about sacred texts?

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6. Comment #83979 by Atticus_of_Amber on November 1, 2007 at 12:19 am

 avatarBut why should any text or even any idea be "sacred"? Genuine question here.

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7. Comment #83982 by JemyM on November 1, 2007 at 12:39 am

 avatarThe suggestions made by this article do not work in a liberal democracy. Within a such society everything have the right to be questioned, analysed and critizised, harshly if neccessary. If you cannot do that, you can as well drop the democracy. You do not get respect based on your beliefs, you get respect based on your respect, better get used to it.

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8. Comment #83985 by BMMcArdle on November 1, 2007 at 12:47 am

"It's really quite amazing," one may say, or: "You know, I was just reading it the other day; it's as good as ever."
I look forward to using this, with the right inflection, of course. Ah, the nuances of language.

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9. Comment #83989 by Goldy on November 1, 2007 at 1:01 am

If each religion accepted the other sacred texts as valid as their own, then yes, maybe I'd show a touch of respect (try getting a Bible openly into Arabia). Until then, sorry, they're fair game. Quit whining - we athiests are only doing what each religion does to each other. Complain about them first, then us.

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10. Comment #83991 by alfonso on November 1, 2007 at 1:07 am

Sacred texts, argues Carlin Romano, deserve to be approached politely even by those who see no merit in claims about their divine origins


Erm, no. Kinda lost me there...

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11. Comment #83994 by kraut on November 1, 2007 at 1:13 am

"In all but exceptional cases, today's secularists are biblically illiterate."

What an inan statement - most atheists i know/of have been religiously indoctrinated at one time.

They are sacred because someone believes them to be so - why should I have more respect for the "main stream" sacred texts than i.e. Harry Potter or Peter Pan? They are human inventions, made out to be the word of god and therefore all the more dangerous in their use by the believers.

Before they accuse someone not respecting any religious "sacred text", test it to the extend it preaches intolerance, genocide, murder etc. - all found as a prescription how to treat the unbeliever/apostate in any number of sacred texts.
Respect - give me a break, throw those emanations of a sick tribal mind onto the dustheap.

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12. Comment #84005 by stereoroid on November 1, 2007 at 1:46 am

 avatar
Van der Toorn's analysis of the data leads him to conclude that "the modern concept of books is unsuited to describe the written production from the ancient Near East ... To define the Bible as a collection of books, as implied in the Greek designation biblia, is an anachronism. The Bible is a repository of tradition." It is, he says, "the result of a series of scribal interventions".
1) What?
2) How does that make the Bible "sacred"? If anything, this old news about its fragmented nature undermins its "authority".
3) No, really: what?

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13. Comment #84006 by pholt on November 1, 2007 at 2:02 am

In all but exceptional cases, today's secularists are biblically illiterate.


I would change this to: "In all but exceptional cases, today's theists are biblically illiterate."

For evidence, I would present US congressman Lynn Westmoreland, last year sponsor of a 10 commandments related bill. When interviewed by Steven Colbert and asked to name the commandments, the display of which he apparently thought vital to the moral health of the nation, he couldn't.

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14. Comment #84013 by Veronique on November 1, 2007 at 2:29 am

 avatarI can't get The Australian to accept a comment. 404 error.

This is what I wanted to post but seem unable to do so:

Courtesy counts:

"…But then certain enthusiasts took things too far by crashing airliners into office towers in the name of Allah, launching a global crusade to rid the world of evil, and declaring the jury still out on Darwinian evolution. As a consequence, religion now looks nearly as bad as royalism did in the late 18th century." writes Lazare.

Actually it looks worse. Carlin Romano now counsels respect from atheists for the holy texts under the aegis of which, the most appalling and dangerous acts of war have been and are beginning again to be fought.

The 'New Atheists' have been called militant. Articulate, outspoken, rationally-based and very aware of present danger might be a better description.

"In the same way, atheists should not, unprovoked, go on and on about how sacred texts lack God's imprimatur."

Romano needs to realise that rational people have been provoked and feel very strongly about being caught up in a set of potentially explosive circumstances that are being orchestrated by religious lunatics; people who have surrendered reason for a religious dominance agenda.

With the advent of anti-religious polemics, well written, well observed and strongly argued, more atheists feel less alone and are gathering their forces in an attempt to halt the madness that is turning into a crusade. Bush even used that word until his minders gagged him. The American Taliban, pushing Bush, yearns for a theocratic America and he helps by dismantling the 1st Amendment. These people are orchestrating events to bring about the criteria for a 'Second Coming'. They literally believe the demented ravings of John on Patmos writing Revelations.

Ahmadenijad is a theocrat. He is a Muslim. There is less wiggle room in the Koran than there is in the Bible. There is no metaphor in the Koran; it is all literal.

We know the arguments surrounding the wars in the Middle East, the western desire for 'fuel delivery stability' and the provoked 'war on terror' and the changing of the global guard. That is worthy of a lengthy article in itself, but needs be left at the minute.

What is concomitant with that is a war of domination for a belief in a sky god. Which sky god, you may ask. Romano, you really expect atheists to approach these very dangerous holy books, their strange addiction to death and destruction, being acted on by their cognitively dissonant adherents, with respect? It was HL Mencken who wrote "Religion deserves no more respect than a pile of garbage."

I think the time for politeness has gone. No one asked me whether I want my world blown up, smashed and destroyed. These religions have had well over a thousand years of polite bemusement from the rest of us. Up until recently they were mild and private. There have been flare-ups like the Crusades, the Inquisition and genocide over that time. They were all dangerous times. Then there was 9/11, but it had been brewing for some time before that. This time it is very dangerous.

The three Abrahamic religions are intolerant of each other. It didn't matter much for a long time, but now we have zealots with weapons and agendas.

Why should the rest of us tolerate any of them when it is likely to draw us into their maelstrom? Even the emasculated C of E has its Revelation-loving loonies. The Catholics have their war-mongering fringe dwellers. The Zionists are way out there. And as I said, there's no wiggle room with Islamists.

No Romano. Ridicule of these holy books is one method. Written polemics is another. You forgot to mention Onfray and Grayling, Stenger and others. Irony is good, I'll buy that, but not gentle any more. Savage humour is another. All these stem from our utter disbelief in bronze-age myths and an understanding of the dangers that are currently being fomented by the religious divide.

There are more atheists finding a voice. They say you can't herd cats, but the atheists are beginning to group under the banner of reason and rationalism to counter the escalating madness that is religion.

It is no longer an academic and theological exercise. Sure the debates rage on in Oxford with McGrath, in New York with D'Souza and other learned academics in academies with no one changing her mind, but the on-the-ground numbers are swelling.

There is no way of penetrating the religious mindset but there is a need to make the religious moderates understand that their lack of criticism is what gives the extremists the launching pad for their mad assaults.

Veronique

It's the 1st Nov. here and the article was published on the 30th Oct. Maybe the comment thread is no longer accessible.

Ah well
V

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15. Comment #84017 by Quetzalcoatl on November 1, 2007 at 2:46 am

 avatarIn my opinion courtesy should be shown to the religious when they show it to us. If a religious person is genuinely interested in dialogue, then a respectful tone can accomplish a lot. But if all they do is repeat arguments ad nauseum and quote scripture, then the gloves should come off. Many religious people are sincere in their beliefs, and for us to start off by using terms like "idiot", "moron", "child" etc (as sometimes happens) could potentially close their ears to the validity of whatever arguments we have.

I agree, however, that default respect for "sacred texts" should be a thing of the past. We should challenge such beliefs wherever we find them. A lot of terms such as "strident", "shrill", "fundamentalist" and "confrontational" are bandied about by religious commentators, perhaps to try and undermine what we have to say. We need to, and often have, shown that we can be respectful. WHERE IT IS DESERVED.

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16. Comment #84020 by Creeping Jesus on November 1, 2007 at 2:54 am

 avatarIf it's impossible bollocks it's impossible bollocks.

What's to respect?

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17. Comment #84022 by bitbutter on November 1, 2007 at 3:01 am

 avatarI agree with all the comments saying that no text, or idea, should be sacred. Of course we should try to have a civilised discussion wherever possible, but please don't respect my beliefs, I certainly won't be respecting yours.

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18. Comment #84030 by irate_atheist on November 1, 2007 at 3:20 am

 avatarCourtesy counts but the truth hurts?

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19. Comment #84035 by Duff on November 1, 2007 at 3:31 am

All I can say is god has certainly made a hash of his sacred texts. Some god! Some sacred texts!

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20. Comment #84036 by Corylus on November 1, 2007 at 3:35 am

 avatarAtticus
But why should any text or even any idea be "sacred"? Genuine question here.
Personal theory:
This is because people often use the word "sacred" not in its proper fashion as describing that which comes from God, but in a different (but related) way.

The use it to describe not what is special, precious and inviolate to God, but what is special etc. to them. (They assume they and God are in perfect agreement :))

What they deem as sacred then becomes inextricably part not only of their worldview, but also their self-view. A person's religion is a part of themselves, a manner in which they can define and identify themselves in relation to, and contra to, others.

Accordingly, when a person questions the theoretical basis of a particular religion they do not just question the religion. They also bring into the cold light of day the self-image of its adherents.

This questioning becomes then not merely questioning – it is an attack upon the integrity of the self. What is rudeness if not a personal affront?

Evidence for this is shown in how those who use their religion as their primary method of self-definition (as opposed to nationality or race say) are much, much, easier to offend.

I think this is large part of the thinking behind the muslim protests over something as trifling as a cartoon.

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21. Comment #84037 by Nefrubyr on November 1, 2007 at 3:46 am

 avatar
This strikes me as machoism pretending to be scholarly integrity. Why can't atheists see sacred texts as sacred to believers and behave respectfully when not provoked? It is simply not true, in a normal, etiquette-infused vision of life, that we think truth must be stated at every time and in every context. We lie to people in small ways every day to make interactions gentler and less tense, and to be kind to others. Why shouldn't a similar gentleness and desire to avoid hurtful comments inform atheists when they write about books that many hold sacred?

[Emphasis mine]
This paragraph answers its own question, by identifying the exact circumstances in which harsh criticism is appropriate. I spend upwards of 95% of my life being quietly respectful toward others, not raising controversial issues, avoiding hurtful comments, not provoking or being provoked. "When [we] write about books that many hold sacred" is exactly the time to drop the etiquette and gentleness and give our honest opinions of scriptures. I can critically evaluate the bible or I can be gently respectful of those who believe in it, but the nature of its content means I cannot do both at the same time.

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22. Comment #84038 by monoape on November 1, 2007 at 3:47 am

 avatarRespect is earned, not demanded. And it certainly isn't won by pleading "stop being mean to our fairytales".

Or: I have no respect for 'The Infallible Leprechaun Book of Rainbows', even though a bloke called Seamus O'Flarity wants me to. Should I comply? I think not.

P.S. Is it just me or do other people need to log in every single bloody time you want to leave a comment?

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23. Comment #84039 by Quetzalcoatl on November 1, 2007 at 3:59 am

 avatarIt's just you!

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24. Comment #84040 by VanYoungman on November 1, 2007 at 4:06 am

 avatarAlphonso and Veronique;

How about, "Please keep your fucking bible off my coffee table." ?

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25. Comment #84042 by Russell Blackford on November 1, 2007 at 4:14 am

There's a time and place for satire, mockery, and ridicule, but also a time and place for courtesy. I have no problem with that at all. I think I have enough sensitivity to tell the difference without the advice in the article.

The trouble is that so often it is the religious believers who go far beyond mere discourtesy, into emotional denunciation of those who oppose their cruel ideas. Worse, they frequently attempt to impose their cruel ideas by force - with considerable success. Every day, wherever we live, we see examples of all this. Who can blame us if we lose patience?

I should add that it is often the "saintly" writings of Augustine and Aquinas that are actually worst of all in promoting a horrible, miserable picture of humanity, morality, and our place in the world. Their books could also do with a bit of mockery.

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26. Comment #84044 by monoape on November 1, 2007 at 4:17 am

 avatarThanks, Quetzalcoatl - I'll try and work out why that is (he says, having just logged back in a-feckin-gain to post this :)).

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27. Comment #84046 by Flagellant on November 1, 2007 at 4:17 am

 avatarSo how about a bit more respect for atheists and well-researched, well-argued texts like The God Delusion?




Religion - An activity for consenting adults in private.

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28. Comment #84051 by mmurray on November 1, 2007 at 4:35 am

 avatarThe person writing this article would have enjoyed the idea of Matthew Chapman at AAI 07 where he suggests an atheist line at the airport where you could go straight onto the plane without a security check. The way it would work would be that there would be a stand with all standard `sacred' texts on it and as you went past you would have to defile each one.

Michael

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29. Comment #84055 by Northern Bright on November 1, 2007 at 4:51 am

 avatarWhat an extraordinary article: "It's ok if you don't believe in this stuff, but can't you just pretend you do - or at least, keep quiet about your unbelief - when there are religious people within earshot?"

This is also an article that conveys the puniness and irrelevance of religion every bit as much as RD, Hitch or Sam could have ever hoped to do.

After all, if religious belief is so fragile, so easily crumpled, it has to be handled with kid gloves; if its tenets are so flimsy that they cannot withstand more than a water-cooler level of debate - that just leaves a pathetic, empty shell, and an open admission that believers have no good reason for holding their beliefs.

This isn't a request for courtesy. It's possible to challenge belief (or anything else, come to that) very robustly indeed, without ever becoming rude or aggressive or offensive. This is a request to leave religion alone, to leave believers alone, to keep quiet and keep our unbelief to ourselves. Sorry, Carlin - the answer's "no".

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30. Comment #84058 by Logicel on November 1, 2007 at 4:58 am

 avatarRussell Blackford wrote: I should add that it is often the "saintly" writings of Augustine and Aquinas that are actually worst of all in promoting a horrible, miserable picture of humanity, morality, and our place in the world. Their books could also do with a bit of mockery.
________

I second that motion!

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31. Comment #84060 by mmurray on November 1, 2007 at 5:01 am

 avatarI guess it is worth pointing out that this comes from the Australian's Higher Education section which regularly borrows articles from the Times Higher Educational Supplement or (as in this case) The Chronicle of Higher Education.

Unfortunately the Chronicle is one of those magazines (like New Scientist) that think you can charge for content on the internet.

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

32. Comment #84061 by Bonzai on November 1, 2007 at 5:06 am

What a pretentious windbag. I hate people who write like that.

Other Comments by Bonzai

33. Comment #84089 by robert s on November 1, 2007 at 6:27 am

Can I suggest 'propaganda' as a better word for 'sacred text'?

And did he really write periscope?

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34. Comment #84119 by PeterK on November 1, 2007 at 7:58 am

This article should be retitled:


"Hey, At Least Be Nice To Us While Showing Us That We Are Wrong."

Other Comments by PeterK

35. Comment #84151 by cowalker on November 1, 2007 at 9:47 am

The author mixed up several different miliues in this article, I think.

There's common courtesy, where you don't intrude on a stranger's privacy by making an insulting personal remark. No atheist I know of goes around accosting people entering a church/mosque/temple and calls them stupid and foolish for wasting their time with worship. The group that comes closest to that kind of intrusive behavior is the Fred Phelps Psychos, who picket the funerals of U.S. soldiers who died in combat with signs that say "God Hates Fags" and "Thank God for Dead Soldiers."
http://richarddawkins.net/article,1821,n,n
As far as I can tell, they are universally, deservedly despised and condemned.

Then there are instances where scripture might be discussed with acquaintances, co-workers, or family. The subject comes up and discussion follows. Respect for the person should result in disagreeing with them in a compassionate, respectful tone. Human nature being what it is, emotional reactions to respectfully expressed thoughts will sometimes provoke anger, ridicule or personal attacks. It is an emotional subject. I agree that atheists and believers should try to keep their tempers to avoid huring others, but I don't think atheists have any more to apologize for than believers in this area.

Then there are scholarly books and essays that analyze scriptures. They might be written by believers or non-believers. They will probably have an agenda--to prove a theory that the author has about the origin, influences, translations etc. of the text. The author may have the secondary motive of wanting to promote or cast doubt on the "sacredness" of the text. The author will succeed in impressing scholars more if he/she keeps a strictly neutral tone. The evidence is supposed to persuade. A scientist who wrote a paper to support his theory about black holes would lose credibility if he ridiculed another scientist's theory rather than respectfully, dispassionately showing why it doesn't work.

Then there are books that are meant for a popular audience that address religious beliefs. They have the purpose of persuading people that the author's point of view is correct. Evidence is only part of the argument, because the question of whether there is or is not a God cannot be disproven or proven on the grounds of evidence. The evidence is suggestive, but not conclusive. The author will use scripture, history, personal experience, rhetoric, humor, pathos, ridicule, outrage, parody, personal charisma, science and anything else that he/she thinks is persuasive. You can argue about the effectiveness of any of these tools, but it's silly to think you can rule any of them out. If you pick up a book that is meant to persuade, your personal beliefs may be attacked impolitely. So buyer beware.

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36. Comment #84167 by artemisa on November 1, 2007 at 10:56 am

"And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt his existence".

Bertrand Russell

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37. Comment #84274 by Damien White on November 1, 2007 at 3:34 pm

If the bible is the word of god, why isn't it still being written? If it was being written to record the works of god in the world, why isn't it still going? Why did it stop 2000 years ago at the death of Saul of Tarsus?
Of course some (like the Mulslims and the Mormons) have written their own follow-ups. So why don't christians believe in these? Why did everything stop?

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38. Comment #84275 by ChrisMcL on November 1, 2007 at 3:37 pm

 avatarMost Christians don't know much about their holy text. Maybe they need a discourteous challenge from atheists in order to get them to actually try to understand what it its that they profess to believe in.

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39. Comment #84309 by Cartomancer on November 1, 2007 at 5:39 pm

 avatarRussell Blackford, comment 25:

The thing about the writings of Augustine and Aquinas is that they are not considered "sacred texts" in the same way that the Scriptures are. The saintliness of these writers actually has nothing to do with how trustworthy their works are in the eyes of most Catholics.

The arguments of Augustine and Aquinas stand on merit alone - the merit in question being their basis in neoplatonic and stoic philosophy on the one hand and rampant scholastic aristotelianism on the other. You would be hard pressed to find a sensible Catholic these days who believes anything Aquinas says as fact without further corroboration, indeed you would be hard pressed to find a Catholic who has actually read anything he wrote. Insensible Catholics are of course beyond rationality and our scorn will do little good for them.

The reason nobody in their right mind has read Aquinas is that his works are both mind-rottingly recondite and so unbelievably long that even the prospect of doing so would inspire suicide. His magnum opus, the Summa Theologiae, is well over two million words long. No human mind can suffer that much pedantic logic-chopping without collapsing in on itself, and the summa is just a tiny fraction of his total output. It's a wonder he had any time to stuff pies down his distended Dominican gullet at all...

Actually Aquinas' arguments were being knocked down or flagged up as inadequate even before the vast corpulent hulk popped his clogs. His immediate successors, Giles of Rome, Henry of Ghent, Scotus and Ockham all took him to task for what he says about the philosophical underpinnings of Christian theology. As for Augustine, well, the fallible human nature of his literary output was made plain for all to see when he published his 'retractiones' - a list of addenda and corrigenda revising certain opinions he espoused in previous works. Credit where credit is due to the uptight sexual hypocrite from Hippo, he certainly knew the dangers of putting contentious theological opinions into the public arena.

Though nothing can excuse him for making me wade through De immortalitate animae last Wednesday. Now there are four hours of my life I'm never going to get back...

Other Comments by Cartomancer

40. Comment #84316 by Russell Blackford on November 1, 2007 at 6:05 pm

All well said, Cartomancer. I tip my purely-metaphorical hat to your erudition. That said, much present-day Catholic moral teaching can be traced back through Aquinas to the uptight sexual hypocrite from Hippo, as you so aptly called Augustine. It would be salutary, methinks, if this were well-known - along with the fact that his values were so twisted and his actual arguments so ... silly.

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41. Comment #84398 by stereoroid on November 2, 2007 at 1:50 am

 avatar
Why can't atheists see sacred texts as sacred to believers and behave respectfully when not provoked? It is simply not true, in a normal, etiquette-infused vision of life, that we think truth must be stated at every time and in every context. We lie to people in small ways every day to make interactions gentler and less tense, and to be kind to others.
Or, as HL Mencken put it:
We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.


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42. Comment #84413 by Nick Good on November 2, 2007 at 2:46 am

 avatarWhy can't atheists see sacred texts as sacred to believers and behave respectfully when not provoked?

Because all too many theists, feel obliged to intervene in temporal matters on behalf of their alleged deity, claiming to know this deity's mind.

Often these proxy temporal interventions by theists on behalf of their alleged deity, are damaging.

That cuts it as being "provoked" to me, and no doubt others.

Other Comments by Nick Good

43. Comment #84598 by nothing on November 2, 2007 at 6:04 pm

 avatarI suspect people are going to be unhappy with me for what I'm about to write. But I feel compelled to write it.

In my experience, people that I have convinced to change their minds about God has not come from passionate debate or intense arguing. It has ALWAYS been from just calmly discussing the issues.

As soon as someone gets defensive (in anything), they close up and wont consider anything you have said.


I agree with the above, for precisely the reason given below.



What they deem as sacred then becomes inextricably part not only of their worldview, but also their self-view. A person's religion is a part of themselves, a manner in which they can define and identify themselves in relation to, and contra to, others.

Accordingly, when a person questions the theoretical basis of a particular religion they do not just question the religion. They also bring into the cold light of day the self-image of its adherents.

This questioning becomes then not merely questioning – it is an attack upon the integrity of the self. What is rudeness if not a personal affront?

Evidence for this is shown in how those who use their religion as their primary method of self-definition (as opposed to nationality or race say) are much, much, easier to offend.

I think this is large part of the thinking behind the muslim protests over something as trifling as a cartoon.


May I suggest that we do not fall into the same trap of making our lack of belief into a self-identity? Do we really want to get stuck in an ingroup/outgroup distinction, with us as the ingroup and everyone else as an outgroup?


There's a time and place for satire, mockery, and ridicule, but also a time and place for courtesy. I have no problem with that at all. I think I have enough sensitivity to tell the difference without the advice in the article.

The trouble is that so often it is the religious believers who go far beyond mere discourtesy, into emotional denunciation of those who oppose their cruel ideas. Worse, they frequently attempt to impose their cruel ideas by force - with considerable success. Every day, wherever we live, we see examples of all this. Who can blame us if we lose patience?


Absolutely. Indeed we have, for far too long, not stood up to religious bullying.


This article should be retitled:

"Hey, At Least Be Nice To Us While Showing Us That We Are Wrong."


I know the above was written in satire. But I ask, can we not at least attempt to occupy the ethical higher ground? It is easy to lose patience with religious nonsense but a lot of people who cling to this stuff really don't know how to think rationally or critically. Indeed it is not that they cling to the nonsense so much as that the nonsense clings to them.

The virus of faith is difficult to eradicate. Our enemy is not the human beings carrying these memes. These memes are dangerous and poisonous to both "us" AND "them". Our enemy is the group of memes themselves. If we are ever to have a hope of eradicating or at least taming these memes, we need to use as many strategies as possible. Surely politeness is a powerful strategy in the appropriate situations?

Other Comments by nothing

44. Comment #84603 by Bizarro Dawkins on November 2, 2007 at 6:56 pm

I totally disagree with this author. I firmly believe that athiests should maintain, if not escalate, their openly hyper-dogmatic hostility towards those religious boobs. It makes my job so much easier ;-)

Other Comments by Bizarro Dawkins

45. Comment #84609 by thirdchimpanzee on November 2, 2007 at 8:19 pm

I don't know about Australia or Europe, but the backlash against 1960's and 70's secularism was on full display in the US before 9/11. What had begun stealthily with Ronald Reagan had reached its fever pitch with the stolen election of 2000 that delivered the US Congress and Presidency to the Religious Right. The provoking of atheists and secularists began almost immediately afterwards, and was so strident that Jerry Falwell could feel sufficiently emboldened to blame the terror attacks of September 11th on the secularists, atheists and homosexuals of America.

He was quickly shut up by his co-religionists not because the felt he was wrong, just a bit too open about what they were all feeling. The tide has indeed turned, in part because atheists have realised that how much is at stake, but also because the neo-cons and religious cheerleaders of Holy War on Islam (sorry IslamoFascism) have committed the cardinal American sin - they're losing.

We didn't start this - and I feel no need to apologise for pulling back the curtain on the abuse of human intellect that goes by the name of religion.

Other Comments by thirdchimpanzee

46. Comment #84610 by windweaver on November 2, 2007 at 8:31 pm

 avatar
athiests should maintain, if not escalate, their openly hyper-dogmatic hostility towards those religious boobs


I'm going to be "hyper-dogmatic" here Bizarro and ask you to respond to the article below:

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file021.html

Other Comments by windweaver

47. Comment #84611 by Diacanu on November 2, 2007 at 8:46 pm

 avatarBelieve it or not, I'm walking on air.
I never thought I could feel so free-hee-hee.
Flying away on a wing and a prayer.
Who could it be?
Believe it or not, it's just meee.

Other Comments by Diacanu

48. Comment #84620 by Bizarro Dawkins on November 2, 2007 at 11:16 pm

Windreaver,

That article is very outdated and filled with strawmen and oversimplifications. Aig actually wrote an article called "Arguments Creationists Should Not Use" and I'm sure you'll find many of the points Gould makes in that article.

All of those arguments are old arguments that I've dealt with many times before. Since 97, with the rise of Aig, I believe most if not all of those arguments are irrelevant, and as senior bio major, I'm more than familiar with them.

While I'm not going to address each point as it would obviously take too much time to answer each one sufficiently, I would like to point out something I found to be very disturbing:

"As it happens, scientists have deduced the nature of an evolutionary path that a primitive blood-clotting mechanism could have followed to evolve the more complex cascade."

Notice the word "could". This means that, in plainer words, Gould's assertion is a mere speculation. The process has never been observed nor is it implied by any existing evidence. Is this Gould's idea of science?

Besides this, I believe that the question of God's existence transcends science and is something more of a philosophical endeavor. Is the science important? Absolutely. However, what many forget is that science is an institution founded by people and composed of people. "Science" will therefore invariably be the projection of various individuals' personal beliefs, at the least on the level of origins science. In other words, philosophy determines scientific conclusions to a monumental degree.

Other Comments by Bizarro Dawkins

49. Comment #84623 by Diacanu on November 2, 2007 at 11:30 pm

 avatar
"Science" will therefore invariably be the projection of various individuals' personal beliefs,


*Closes eyes, smacks forehead, shakes head, sighs*

Science isn't a fucking belief, it's based on EVIDENCE.

You can believe the sky is pink to your heart's content, but the evidence will never back you up.

Other Comments by Diacanu

50. Comment #84626 by Veronique on November 3, 2007 at 12:16 am

 avatarDiacanu

Bizzaro Dawkins hasn't been around for a while. He is a religite troll who wastes everyone's time. Try not to feed him (as you tried to help us with Scooter:-)).

He goes to Liberty Uni or one of the faith universities and is doing biology. I have no idea how he compartmentalises and have no desire to know. He is cognitively dissonant and drives us all batty.

Don't bruise your forehead:-) He's not worth it.
Cheers
V

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