










The truth in religion2. Comment #84174 by cyris8400 on November 1, 2007 at 11:23 am
Perhaps gushing reviewers of Cornwell's new book would hold their tongue on the "thank God Hitler was an atheist" thing if someone told him about one of Cornwell's old books, "Hitler's Pope".3. Comment #84180 by Quine on November 1, 2007 at 11:35 am
Darwin's angel pertinently asks, "Would you really trade child sexual abuse for being brought up in the religion of your parents?".
4. Comment #84182 by jeepyjay on November 1, 2007 at 11:39 am
I've long been hoping that one of these religious apologists, who claim that there is no conflict between faith and reason, would give a definition of faith to justify this view. He does at least offer one:5. Comment #84185 by Chris Hagan on November 1, 2007 at 11:43 am
With such woolly thinking, I'm not surprised that Christians are sometimes referred to as a flock.6. Comment #84187 by Rtambree on November 1, 2007 at 11:44 am
4. Comment #84182 by jeepyjay on November 1, 2007 at 11:39 am7. Comment #84198 by GBile on November 1, 2007 at 12:04 pm
The integrity of creation is a kind of package deal.
.. its creator is not a capricious magician.
8. Comment #84203 by Tyler Durden on November 1, 2007 at 12:13 pm
No progress will be made in the debate about religious belief unless participants are prepared to recognize that the issue of truth is as important to religion as it is to science.Yet every single time we expose one of their myths using science or logic, they refuse to accept it as truth.
Religion does not have access to absolute proof of its beliefs but, on careful analysis, nor does science.What a load of nonsense!
9. Comment #84206 by Corylus on November 1, 2007 at 12:18 pm
Faith is a commitment to a form of motivated belief, differing only from scientific reason in the nature of the subject of that belief and the kind of motivations appropriate to it.
But unfortunately It's rather to convoluted for me to follow. Can anyone translate it?
10. Comment #84213 by Janus on November 1, 2007 at 12:31 pm
11. Comment #84215 by cowalker on November 1, 2007 at 12:31 pm
Non-sacred Cow! What a load of illogical nonsense.12. Comment #84216 by Corky on November 1, 2007 at 12:31 pm
No progress will be made in the debate about religious belief unless participants are prepared to recognize that the issue of truth is as important to religion as it is to science.
Dawkins invokes Bertrand Russell's parable of the teapot irrationally claimed to be in unobserved orbit in the solar system. Of course there are no grounds for belief in this piece of celestial crockery, but there are grounds offered for religious belief, though admittedly different people evaluate their persuasiveness differently.
Religion does not have access to absolute proof of its beliefs but, on careful analysis, nor does science.
In all realms of human inquiry, the interlacing of experience and interpretation introduces a degree of precariousness into the argument.
13. Comment #84218 by TheCelestialTeapot on November 1, 2007 at 12:39 pm
Something I have come to notice after months of reading similar articles to this one is that none of the religious ever bring up Dennett's book Breaking the Spell. I think the reason that it often goes unmentioned when the religous are making claims that "Dawkins and Hitchens don't understand theology" or that "this is not my religion" is because Dennett offers the argument that the religious are claiming that the other athiest books do not. Dennett gives as complete an argument as can be given, while being somewhat deferential to belief. It's not necessary for Dawkins or Hitchens to recant and commit themselves to further study. Dennett has already driven in the final nail in the coffin. If some theologian can argue with Dennett philsophical position successfully, then I would be impressed. Or rather, if any theologian or faith-head even mentioned and confronted Dennett's major points, then I would be impressed. To my knowledge it appears that no one can step up and challenge Breaking the Spell, and it also appears that the religous are refusing to do so because they know damn well what would happen. They would lose.14. Comment #84220 by walk on November 1, 2007 at 12:44 pm
Faith is a commitment to a form of motivated belief, differing only from scientific reason in the nature of the subject of that belief and the kind of motivations appropriate to it
15. Comment #84222 by Diacanu on November 1, 2007 at 12:45 pm
16. Comment #84224 by infidel_michael on November 1, 2007 at 12:49 pm
Dawkins invokes Bertrand Russell's parable of the teapot irrationally claimed to be in unobserved orbit in the solar system. Of course there are no grounds for belief in this piece of celestial crockery, but there are grounds offered for religious belief, though admittedly different people evaluate their persuasiveness differently.17. Comment #84227 by cowalker on November 1, 2007 at 12:53 pm
It's a target-rich piece of work, isn't it?18. Comment #84233 by Quine on November 1, 2007 at 1:15 pm
I'm sure Cornwell would agree that it would be quite irresponsible to indoctrinate children with simplistic religious beliefs before they are capable of understanding academic arguments and theological subtleties.
19. Comment #84238 by Logicel on November 1, 2007 at 1:35 pm
20. Comment #84240 by Bonzai on November 1, 2007 at 1:47 pm
Rev. Polkinghorne was a very distinguished physicist in his former life. He is no run of the mill Christian apologist.21. Comment #84241 by junklight on November 1, 2007 at 1:48 pm
Scientific proofs are a damn sight more absolute than anything I've seen from religion! This is one of the main troubles with religious believers. They want "absolute" knowledge. Just 99.999999 percent wont do for them! Yet they are still not prepared give up their favourite beliefs even if there is only 0.0000001 percent evidence it just might be true.
22. Comment #84242 by infidel_michael on November 1, 2007 at 1:48 pm
REVEREND: Science achieves its success by the modesty of its ambition, only considering impersonal experience open to repetition at will. Personal experience, let alone encounter with the transpersonal reality of God, does not fit within this limited protocol.23. Comment #84244 by Diacanu on November 1, 2007 at 1:54 pm
24. Comment #84245 by Mr DArcy on November 1, 2007 at 2:01 pm
Religious faith is not a matter of the unquestioning acceptance of unmotivated belief, demanded of us by some overriding authority.
25. Comment #84247 by Rtambree on November 1, 2007 at 2:18 pm
23. Comment #84244 by Diacanu on November 1, 2007 at 1:54 pm26. Comment #84253 by Lauregon on November 1, 2007 at 2:40 pm
Faith is a commitment to a form of motivated belief, differing only from scientific reason in the nature of the subject of that belief and the kind of motivations appropriate to it.
- Polkinghorne
No progress will be made in the debate about religious belief unless participants are prepared to recognize that the issue of truth is as important to religion as it is to science. - Polkinghorne
27. Comment #84265 by clunkclickeverytrip on November 1, 2007 at 3:18 pm
My take on why the eternal "reason vs. faith" debate feels to we atheists like we are banging our heads agaist a brick wall is that we simply are not on an even playing field.28. Comment #84267 by Diacanu on November 1, 2007 at 3:25 pm
29. Comment #84269 by jaytee_555 on November 1, 2007 at 3:28 pm
I think Polkinghorne is plain dishonest. I'm sure he knows very well that this article is all wind and piss. If there was any real chance of proving this one way or another, I'd be willing to place a very large bet on it.30. Comment #84271 by Bonzai on November 1, 2007 at 3:30 pm
Lauregon,31. Comment #84279 by Diacanu on November 1, 2007 at 3:53 pm
...crude apologetics..
32. Comment #84286 by Bonzai on November 1, 2007 at 4:07 pm
At least I would expect him to come up with something more intriguing and fancy rather than same old same old.33. Comment #84290 by Inferno on November 1, 2007 at 4:14 pm
You cannot have the one without the other. Humphrys asks why there are not repeated divine interventions to avert evil consequences. Such things could only happen in a magical world, and that kind of world is not this one, because its creator is not a capricious magician.
34. Comment #84296 by Russell Blackford on November 1, 2007 at 4:34 pm
Polkinghorne simply does not understand the concepts of omnipotence and beneficence if he thinks that that nonsense can get him out of the problem of evil. Either that, or he's intellectually dishonest.35. Comment #84298 by Diacanu on November 1, 2007 at 4:40 pm
To create a world without evil, without suffering would be capricious?
36. Comment #84315 by Theocrapcy on November 1, 2007 at 6:02 pm
37. Comment #84321 by BAEOZ on November 1, 2007 at 6:10 pm
Either that, or he's intellectually dishonest.
38. Comment #84349 by BT Murtagh on November 1, 2007 at 9:24 pm
39. Comment #84350 by monkey2 on November 1, 2007 at 9:27 pm
Both Dawkins and Humphrys engage with the challenge to theism that is represented by the existence of a world...... which... contains so much evil and suffering. This is.... holding people back from religious belief, and .....[it] troubles religious believers.
One could not claim that there is a complete and straightforward answer available to remove the perplexity.
40. Comment #84372 by Flagellant on November 1, 2007 at 11:29 pm
In his preface, Cornwell is explicit that he intends '…not so much to pick a fight…as to offer a few 'grace notes'…and…glosses in the interests of sharper logic, closer insight, and factual accuracy' (DA, p. 18). Well, phooey! If logic equals caprice, insight equals obfuscation and factual accuracy equals wilful misrepresentation, then he's on target... If you read Darwin's Angel, you will find a travesty of Dawkins's views and, if you accept Cornwell's misrepresentations, you will find yourself very badly informed by his perversions.The issue is also discussed more fully in this thread: http://richarddawkins.net/article,1610,Honest-Mistakes-or-Willful-Mendacity,Richard-Dawkins started by Richard Dawkins. It also contains a penetrating review by Northern Bright (Comment #69971).
41. Comment #84397 by ADH on November 2, 2007 at 1:47 am
The responses on this site to the article by Polkinghorne have (as I knew they would) lent huge weight to the points he is making in it. The average "new atheist" quickly loses patience with argument and descends with mind-blowing alacrity into crude, brainless ad hominem vitriol. Dawkins and Hitchens have led the way as pioneers of this style of debate, and their little flock not so much of woolly-thinkers as of non-thinkers, cheerfully follow suit, bleating out their predictable puerile inanities. Keep it up chaps, it's just what we expect of you.42. Comment #84409 by Diacanu on November 2, 2007 at 2:38 am
43. Comment #84414 by Newton30 on November 2, 2007 at 2:49 am
44. Comment #84416 by ADH on November 2, 2007 at 2:59 am
Every new comment that appears here just serves to show how much truth there is in what Polkinghorne is saying. Keep digging folks! Your grave will soon be finished!45. Comment #84446 by Logicel on November 2, 2007 at 4:02 am
46. Comment #84451 by Ford Prefect on November 2, 2007 at 4:11 am
ADH47. Comment #84452 by ADH on November 2, 2007 at 4:13 am
"If you find the arguments against the article 'woolly' and 'puerile' could you please provide your counter argument or are you all mouth and no trousers ?"48. Comment #84454 by BaronOchs on November 2, 2007 at 4:27 am
When it asserts that Jesus' call to love our neighbour referred only to relations between Jews (despite this claim being in clear contradiction to the point of the parable of the Good Samaritan)
49. Comment #84457 by BaronOchs on November 2, 2007 at 4:40 am
Darwin's angel criticizes Dawkins for a lack of trust in the power of imagination to explore reality, such as we exercise through poetry.
50. Comment #84461 by stephenray on November 2, 2007 at 4:56 am
"[the universe's] creator is not a capricious magician"This article is reposted from a website that accepts comments.
Why not share your comment on the article there as well? CLICK HERE
1. Comment #84173 by JFHalsey on November 1, 2007 at 11:13 am
I see a delightful drinking game opportunity in these apologist articles. You have to take a shot every time they bring up one of the dead horses they so love to beat..."What about Hitler, Stalin...?"
*shot*
"That's not /my/ God you're talking about..."
*shot*
"The Courtier's Response"
*shot*
...my, that's just the first few paragraphs. I believe I will be quite stone drunk b\very s0on... ^_^*
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