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Saturday, November 3, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Rome playing politics

by AC Grayling, Guardian

Thanks to Linda Ward Selbie for the link.

Reposted from:
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/ac_grayling/2007/11/rome_playing_politics.html

ACThe Vatican is doing its utmost to frustrate him, but the Spanish PM's reforms are marching on, and they're going to be taught in schools.

Those who are indifferent to, or sceptical about, the degree to which the churches still work to exercise political influence need only look at the unsubtle battle that the Catholic church is at this moment waging against the Spanish government.

Spain's prime minister Jose Luis Zapatero has instituted a bold reforming agenda in his country, diluting church-state ties, ending direct government subsidy to the church, introducing same-sex marriage, easing divorce laws, and encouraging greater participation and opportunities for women in Spain's society and economy. He has also openly condemned the fascist Franco regime and honoured those who resisted it, something that beforehand was regarded in his country as too contentious and divisive to attempt.

None of this pleases the Catholic church either in Spain itself or in the Vatican, showing by this (if iterated showing were needed) the reactionary, rightwing, backward colouration of church politics. In a deliberate and crude gesture of opposition to Zapatero, the Vatican has conducted its largest ever mass beatification, honouring 498 pro-Franco "victims of religious persecution" during the Spanish Civil War. Those victims were fascists and their church supporters, and included 7000 members of the Catholic clergy killed between 1931 and 1939 in an uprising against the staggering oppression by church and state that had kept the population poor, benighted, ignorant, trapped, exploited and suffering. Look at most Catholic countries until the 1960s and beyond, in South America or Ireland or Spain: the picture of the social, political and economic effects of Catholicism is in its essentials the same. Women enslaved to child-bearing, over-large families perpetuating ignorance and poverty, backward social policies and the iron grip of a clergy acting like the Stasi in controlling the minutiae of private lives through the confessional and the influence of fear - fear of hell, among other things. The small and in the end ineffectual "liberation theology" rebellion among some South American clergy was quashed by the church hierarchy, not interested in salvation for anyone in this life except for the church itself as an institution whose principal aim, like the politburo of the Chinese Communist party, is to stay in control at any cost.

The savagery of 1930s anticlericalism in Spain, with its deplorable murders and violence, is a mark of how bitterly the oppression was felt. Anticlericalism had been running strongly in Catholic Europe ever since the Inquisition and Counter-Reformation, when priests did the murdering, and Spain was not the only example of an anger-prompted murderous response to priestly oppression. Some might think that murder by priests is worse than murder of priests because priests are most particularly not supposed to murder, and if murdered (in the right circumstances, that is; not in bed with their mistresses or - more usually of late - choirboys) can claim martyrdom. But obviously murder by anyone of anyone is flatly wrong, and the Spanish revolution of the 1930s would have been better effected, per impossibile, without the mayhem. Anger towards the church explains but does not excuse the violence unleashed on it; from this perspective of history, the reason why the church provoked such violence is the significant point.

Typically, learning nothing from this history, the Catholic church is trying its same tricks again, though beatifying Franco fascists as a way of rousing opposition to Zapatero's liberal policies is an uncharacteristically crude way of doing it.

The immediate reason for the Church's action is that in Spain's schools this autumn new civics courses are beginning, explaining and discussing the Spanish constitution and the rights of the citizen. Because of what the constitution accords to gay people and women, the church is bitterly opposed to it, and to children knowing about it. The Catholic nun who is the church's liaison to the education ministry in Madrid told the press that the new civics course is "a frontal assault on the Catholic religion" and "part of a clear persecution...of the Catholic faith". One's response to her first complaint is "good," and to the second, "so: a bit of your own medicine; and salutary medicine at that - for everyone else".

The Catholic right in Spain, with Vatican assistance, is determined to recapture influence for the church and thereby to reverse the social gains that Spain has made under Zapatero's premiership. Their hopes are high; by law Catholicism is still taught in Spain's schools (though this has to be a target for Zapatero reforms too) and the church remains a large presence in the country and its life. So the battle lines are drawn, and one of the last major conflicts of the Counter-Reformation appears ready to be played out there, as if in a corrida between the future and the past, freedom and oppression, sanity and superstition - or, to put the matter more graphically perhaps, between matador Zapatero and a load of bull.


Comments 1 - 34 of 34 |

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1. Comment #84716 by Fouad Boussetta on November 3, 2007 at 10:02 am

 avatarI like Zapatero.

Other Comments by Fouad Boussetta

2. Comment #84722 by artemisa on November 3, 2007 at 10:33 am

Bravo Zapatero!!!!!!!!!!!

Other Comments by artemisa

3. Comment #84723 by phil rimmer on November 3, 2007 at 10:38 am

 avatarViva Zapatero!

Grayling is getting better and better. I like his Hitch style joke at the end, but shouldn't it be-

[a conflict] between matador Zapatero and a load of Papal bull?

Other Comments by phil rimmer

4. Comment #84726 by ridelo on November 3, 2007 at 10:54 am

I saw Zapatero on the Belgian TV. And I thought: 'I like this man.', because he reminded me a bit of Jacques Rogge, our own 'mister clean of the Olympics'.
Now I know why.

Other Comments by ridelo

5. Comment #84734 by detox on November 3, 2007 at 11:32 am

 avatarMy first reaction on hearing this a few days ago was to scoff at the crassness of the catholic church. That's too easy though so I thought I'd do some research on beatification and it is enlightening because there appear to be a set of complex rules that have been altered and upgraded over the centuries.

The one constant seems to be that the rules are all necessarily man-made. Does anyone know where the theological basis for these rules can be found?

I assume that the laws are derived from the infallibility of the pope who makes the rules on the basis that he talks to god and the big fella tells him how it should be done.

I suppose I'm hoping for a biblical reference that can be debunked. It just seems more valid to make an effort to shine the light of reason on something specific rather than just sigh resignedly and shake your head.

Or am I just wasting my time?

Other Comments by detox

6. Comment #84741 by tieInterceptor on November 3, 2007 at 12:10 pm

 avatar"by law Catholicism is still taught in Spain's schools"

?? I'm was born the same year General Franco died, and never had any Catholicism thought in school, and none of my friends had either.

I'm not sure where they get this info from.

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

7. Comment #84742 by Jonathan Dore on November 3, 2007 at 12:12 pm

Detox: waste of time, I'm afraid. The Catholic Church has never considered biblical texts to be essential to doctrine -- it considers itself, as an institution, to be an equally valid source of authority. After all, the whole theological edifice of veneration around Mary (immaculate conception, perpetual virginity, flying to heaven on her deathbed etc.) has been entirely contrived by the church over the centuries without any help from the bible. To believing Catholics, every papal bull and encyclical carries as much weight as a gospel.

Other Comments by Jonathan Dore

8. Comment #84752 by alfonso on November 3, 2007 at 12:37 pm

As a Spaniard living in Ireland, I've had the chance to see the effects of the roman catholic church and I can only say, I'm happy I voted for this man! Oh, and it was postal vote from Ireland, so no chance for my vote to be decided by the Madrid bombings.

Other Comments by alfonso

9. Comment #84756 by SilentMike on November 3, 2007 at 12:58 pm

"The catholic church. Screwing everything up for absolutely everyone since 313"

Other Comments by SilentMike

10. Comment #84757 by Logicel on November 3, 2007 at 1:02 pm

 avatarTypically, learning nothing from this history, the Catholic church is trying its same tricks again, though beatifying Franco fascists as a way of rousing opposition to Zapatero's liberal policies is an uncharacteristically crude way of doing it.
______

Desperate people do stupid things.

and

The Catholic nun who is the church's liaison to the education ministry in Madrid told the press that the new civics course is "a frontal assault on the Catholic religion"
____

Poor baby, Bill Donahue go to her rescue!!!

Other Comments by Logicel

11. Comment #84760 by Veronique on November 3, 2007 at 1:09 pm

 avatarI realise that we get hand picked articles here and this one is fine. Grayling's latest swipe is much stronger than his previous articles. So are a lot of others.

Is it just me or do you get the feeling that religious apologists are starting to be somewhat overwhelmed in the print medium by the other side? I don't want to get my hopes up only to have them dashed against the rock of ages, but I think I am reading so much more that ridicules and downright slams religious posturing in the papers.

It's just over a year since TGD was published; well let's say 18 months since Harris published TEoF. Apart from the storm that erupted at that time, then the publishing of Grayling, Dennett, Stenger, Onfray , Hitchens and others and the continuation of the storm, do you reckon that we are seeing more articles disclosing the doings of the various religious cults that impinge on our societies?

I guess I hope that you will say, 'yeah V, I see a smidgen of change in the fight-back against religion. The articles are more strongly-worded, the arcane doings of the churches are being exposed more and more readily, the ridicule is developing into a fine art.'

Must be my cautious optimism:-). Hi Logicel, you're back. Does this mean the trading season is finished for the year, sort of?

Good morning all
V

Other Comments by Veronique

12. Comment #84788 by Mr DArcy on November 3, 2007 at 3:25 pm

 avatarGrayling makes some useful points. Quite apart from all the Catholic gobbledygook, he shows part of the reality of life in Spain at the time of the civil war and now.

Jesus is never so gentle as when He is turning the other cheek, loving His enemy and turning the flame thrower on the heretics. No wonder there was/is so much anti-cleriscism in Spain, France and elsewhere.

The Catholic church would have you on your knees for all of your life, producing surplus value for it, if it could have its way entirely. Like other businesses, they have to compete in the modern world.

Other Comments by Mr DArcy

13. Comment #84789 by BAEOZ on November 3, 2007 at 3:46 pm

 avatarTotally stupid point. But I always thought cobbler looks like Mr. Bean (Zapatero=cobbler). Strangely, he's known by his maternal surname, not paternal as is the fashion. Anyway, enough of my disjointed musings. :)

Other Comments by BAEOZ

14. Comment #84797 by Russell Blackford on November 3, 2007 at 4:32 pm

Ya gotta love Grayling. Well said!

You have to scratch your noggin at the idea that introducing reforms to give the Catholic Church a less privileged social and political position in Spain is "persecution". You'd think that the Catholic apparatchiki would have a better understanding of what persecution really is, given the fine traditions of their organisation in refining and extending the practice.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

15. Comment #84798 by Dax on November 3, 2007 at 4:33 pm

The problem with Zapatero and other European socialists like him is that they are willing to attack Christianity, but leave the door wide open for Islamic fundamentalism. It was Islamic fundamentalism that paved the road for Zapatero to gain power (remember the bombings?), but he and other European leaders are unwilling to focus on this.
It is strange, the only people who are willing to ignore political correctness and focus on the thread of fundamentalist Islam are the right winged politicians who favor Christianity.
For the rest, Zapatero is doing a good job, but I urge him and other social-liberals in Europe to target the power of religion in general.

Other Comments by Dax

16. Comment #84819 by koldito on November 3, 2007 at 5:41 pm

I just wanted to point out that the top boss of Spanish catholicism, cardinal Antonio Caņizares, recently declared (literally) that those who support the civics course at school are guilty of supporting evil. I guess the Church has no place for human rights.

Other Comments by koldito

17. Comment #84822 by PrimeNumbers on November 3, 2007 at 6:05 pm

 avatarFascism and Catholicism - what's the difference?

Other Comments by PrimeNumbers

18. Comment #84823 by BAEOZ on November 3, 2007 at 6:13 pm

 avatar
Fascism and Catholicism - what's the difference?

About 1900 years. Seriously, if Catholicism wasn't selling afterlife, nobody would put up with this crap.

Other Comments by BAEOZ

19. Comment #84826 by Crazymalc on November 3, 2007 at 6:50 pm

 avatar

and encouraging greater participation and opportunities for women in Spain's society and economy.


How can any sane minded organisation oppose something as basic as this?

The mind boggles

Other Comments by Crazymalc

20. Comment #84830 by nothing on November 3, 2007 at 8:27 pm

 avatar
How can any sane minded organisation oppose something as basic as this?



Perhaps because organized religion thrives in circumstances of ignorance, poverty and suffering. When such conditions exists, there will always be a place for priests, mullahs and the like.

Other Comments by nothing

21. Comment #84838 by Veronique on November 3, 2007 at 10:10 pm

 avatarI have just spent the last several hours going through the posts to an article about ex-Muslims. I went through all the links that various commentators included in their posts as well. There's quite a debate:-).

Daz and crazy, pop over there and take a look. I am keeping out of it, only lurking, but you may be interested in joining in the discussion.

http://richarddawkins.net/article,1797,Why-do-we-ignore-the-plight-of-ex-Muslims,Johann-Hari-Independent

As I said it has consumed some time for me to read it, but it is interesting enough to warrant it (for me).

Cheers
V

Other Comments by Veronique

22. Comment #84883 by Marie-Louise on November 4, 2007 at 2:57 am

Answer to Veronique comment 84760

I wish I could say you were right,but unfortunately I see the opposite in the papers here in Sweden.

Last week my daily local paper Göteborgs Posten had two big articles about atheism. And whome do you think were asked to write and introduce atheism to the readers? The first one a theolog and the other a catholic journalist who has earlier written very negatively about atheism.These articles were so full of aggressiv hatred,scornfulnes and intentionally misunderstandings that they made me feel sick.

And this happen 50 years after the work and writings of Ingemar Hedenius (The Swedish equivalent to Richard Dawkins)! It really makes me tired and disappointed.

V. I think you are doing a great job. Please continue writing.

M-L

PS. I like your cat. Now I will go out in the garden and pat on our cat.That will make me feel a little better.

Other Comments by Marie-Louise

23. Comment #84905 by PrimeNumbers on November 4, 2007 at 6:36 am

 avatar"About 1900 years. Seriously, if Catholicism wasn't selling afterlife, nobody would put up with this crap. "

Indeed. It's the selling of the afterlife that causes (is the root cause) of most of the problems with religion. If you feel that life goes on after death:

1) you can selfishly live for today, not for the future of all on the planet and all who are yet to come
2) you can murder and kill without feeling too guilty about it, as you've just helped your fellow man onto heaven (or onto hell, and in that case, they probably deserved it)

This just isn't mad, it's evil and amoral. Anyone who teaches life after death is highly immoral.

Other Comments by PrimeNumbers

24. Comment #84919 by Veronique on November 4, 2007 at 7:58 am

 avatar23. Comment #84883 by Marie-Louise

How disheartening for you Swedes. Has everyone forgotten the religious wars fought throughout Europe; the millions who were slaughtered; the dismemberment of the Catholic Church's stronghold over the populace?

History is the most important tool we have, imperfect as it is, to remind us of what happens when we lose vigilance and allow superstition to have a public voice.

Dear M-L, I have the utmost sympathy for you in Sweden if this stuff is happening. Write letters, talk to all the people you know, mobilise, get public and don't allow the non-atheists to publish unchallenged in the press.

Don't succumb to tiredness and disappointment. I have never read Hedenius, but cleave him to your self and write about what he wrote. It's all got to do with persistence, my darling. Never, ever, ever give up:-). It's a life-long commitment, grab it and always run with it.

You have my best wishes; I would like to transmit my energy to you:-).

Cheers
V

Other Comments by Veronique

25. Comment #84943 by LBraschi on November 4, 2007 at 10:10 am

 avatarThe catholic church has always considered Spain as if it belonged to them. I live in Madrid and I can guarantee you that here the church leaders (the Conferencia Episcopal Espaņola - ie the spanish council of bishops) has been strongly opposed to anything Zapatero has ever done: from gay marriage to fighting terrorism (ETA), to condemn Franco's regime, etc.

They have always been playing politics, but they have shed all signs of 'moderation' since there was no right-wing government (Aznar's) to do as they pleased.

(@BAEOZ: Zapatero is known by his maternal surname, yes. Here in Spain people have two surnamnes, usually the first is their father's, the second their mother's. Zapatero's first surname is Rodriguez, all too common here. )

Other Comments by LBraschi

26. Comment #84962 by kaiserkriss on November 4, 2007 at 10:57 am

 avatarIs anyone surprised that the catholic church is playing politics? They have their own country recognized as such the world over with special privileges (spy network and foreign agents)within other countries.
The catholic church should be treated just like any other nation state with no special diplomatic privileges or rights to meddle in the internal affairs of another nation state.

Imagine the uproar if Taiwan, Singapore or Kazakhstan decided to get involved in the internal affairs of Britain or the US. The respective populations would quite rightly tell these countries to "butt- out" and mind their own business. So it should be for the nation state, we call the Vatican and the catholic church. Or is this too simplistic? jcw

Other Comments by kaiserkriss

27. Comment #84966 by Corylus on November 4, 2007 at 11:27 am

 avatarComment 27. By kaiserkriss
Or is this too simplistic?

No it's not too simplistic: it's a very interesting point :)

Other Comments by Corylus

28. Comment #85191 by irate_atheist on November 5, 2007 at 9:04 am

 avatarAnd from another bunch of crackpots -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7078673.stm

This is nothing but the plain murder of a young girl. Only religion can get away with atrocities like this.

And then they wonder why we fight them every step of the way.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

29. Comment #85276 by annabanana on November 5, 2007 at 11:53 am

 avatarVeronique,

For a while, I felt the same as you. I felt like we were making progress, but in the last week or so, that thought has been vacated.

I think there was an article on here about the Golden Compass, but I don't have time to link it. I live in the "Bible Belt" in the U.S. and there is actually an e-mail going around the office of the state agency I work for. The e-mail tells everyone to boycott the books and the movies because they are "anti-Christian". This e-mail has continually been forwarded by people who I thought were very moderate/mild religious types.

Also, I was following the debate about the plight of ex-Muslims. Are they still on about it?

Other Comments by annabanana

30. Comment #85284 by epeeist on November 5, 2007 at 12:13 pm

 avatarComment #85276 by annabanana

I think there was an article on here about the Golden Compass, but I don't have time to link it. I live in the "Bible Belt" in the U.S. and there is actually an e-mail going around the office of the state agency I work for. The e-mail tells everyone to boycott the books and the movies because they are "anti-Christian".
It would vary from company to company here in the UK, but for most I suspect it would be grounds for disciplinary action.

Other Comments by epeeist

31. Comment #85402 by annabanana on November 5, 2007 at 6:21 pm

 avatarThanks for your sympathy epeeist. Unfortunately, as I frequent this website while I'm at work, which is probably against our internet policy, I don't think I'd have a leg to stand on. Also, since I do live in the "Bible Belt", I'm pretty sure my complaints would fall on deaf ears and as much as I'd like to stand up to these people, I still have bills to pay.

Other Comments by annabanana

32. Comment #86682 by Goodwithwood on November 10, 2007 at 12:27 am

 avatarSounds like the Spanish clergy needs to hire Karel Rove and Faux noose to engineer a second Inquisition.

Other Comments by Goodwithwood

33. Comment #87910 by Veronique on November 13, 2007 at 3:35 pm

 avatar30. Comment #85276 by annabanana

Sorry it has taken so long to get back to you. I have been away, ogling a new grandchild:-).

I felt like we were making progress, but in the last week or so, that thought has been vacated.


I know. I vacillate between optimism and despair. Until yesterday I was feeling optimistic. While I was away I attended 4 hour 'Philosothon' hosted by a school in Perth with eight other schools taking part.

I was delighted and uplifted listening to these Years 8 through 11 debating straight from RD's book on Does God exist?. They also debated on whether humans have free will, what is the nature of the human mind and whether it is morally worse to actively kill a person than to passively allow that person to die. A Year 8 student cut through a lot of waffle and was awarded a prize for the student most likely to succeed as a philosopher.

This was the inaugural Philosothon so I will go back next year to see how the debating skills have developed. Met some interesting teachers and others and exchanged email addresses so that we can keep in touch.

I want to introduce Philosophy and Ethics into New South Wales' public schools as a core unit. Talk about an uphill battle! It's worth our best shot though.

I got home yesterday and found Victor Stenger's article in The Skeptical Inquirer. It's enough to make me despair.

So, yes, I have to keep on top of the despair and do something practical that uses my energy and keeps me from snivelling into my soup.

It won't change much in my lifetime but, for now, it seems to be a matter of keeping the focus of reason in public view while finding ways of undermining the concerted spread of un-reason and superstition.

I see this as a real life danger, not just a matter of expressing our opinions on this wonderful web site. Sure, we can give each other support and ideas, but we all have to do something. I, for one, don't want a new dark age descending on the world.

Nice to be back:-).
V

Other Comments by Veronique

34. Comment #87912 by BAEOZ on November 13, 2007 at 3:48 pm

 avatarHi V, how'd your break go?

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