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Tuesday, November 6, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Suffering, Evil and the Existence of God

by Stanley Fish, NY Times

Thanks to everyone who sent this in.

Reposted from:
http://fish.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/suffering-evil-and-the-existence-of-god/

In Book 10 of Milton's "Paradise Lost," Adam asks the question so many of his descendants have asked: why should the lives of billions be blighted because of a sin he, not they, committed? ("Ah, why should all mankind / For one man's fault… be condemned?") He answers himself immediately: "But from me what can proceed, / But all corrupt, both Mind and Will depraved?" Adam's Original Sin is like an inherited virus. Although those who are born with it are technically innocent of the crime – they did not eat of the forbidden tree – its effects rage in their blood and disorder their actions.

God, of course, could have restored them to spiritual health, but instead, Paul tells us in Romans, he "gave them over" to their "reprobate minds" and to the urging of their depraved wills. Because they are naturally "filled with all unrighteousness," unrighteous deeds are what they will perform: "fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness . . . envy, murder . . . deceit, malignity." "There is none righteous," Paul declares, "no, not one."

It follows, then (at least from these assumptions), that the presence of evil in the world cannot be traced back to God, who opened up the possibility of its emergence by granting his creatures free will but is not responsible for what they, in the person of their progenitor Adam, freely chose to do.

What Milton and Paul offer (not as collaborators of course, but as participants in the same tradition) is a solution to the central problem of theodicy – the existence of suffering and evil in a world presided over by an all powerful and benevolent deity. The occurrence of catastrophes natural (hurricanes, droughts, disease) and unnatural (the Holocaust ) always revives the problem and provokes anguished discussion of it. The conviction, held by some, that the problem is intractable leads to the conclusion that there is no God, a conclusion reached gleefully by the authors of books like "The God Delusion," "God Is Not Great" and "The End of Faith." (See discussion here, here and here.)

Now two new books (to be published in the coming months) renew the debate. Their authors come from opposite directions – one from theism to agnosticism, the other from atheism to theism – but they meet, or rather cross paths, on the subject of suffering and evil.

Bart D. Ehrman is a professor of religious studies and his book is titled "God's Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question – Why We Suffer." A graduate of Princeton Theological Seminary, Ehrman trained to be a scholar of New Testament Studies and a minister. Born-again as a teenager, devoted to the scriptures (he memorized entire books of the New Testament), strenuously devout, he nevertheless lost his faith because, he reports, "I could no longer reconcile the claims of faith with the fact of life . . . I came to the point where I simply could not believe that there is a good and kindly disposed Ruler who is in charge." "The problem of suffering," he recalls, "became for me the problem of faith."

Much of the book is taken up with Ehrman's examination of biblical passages that once gave him solace, but that now deliver only unanswerable questions: "Given [the] theology of selection – that God had chosen the people of Israel to be in a special relationship with him – what were Ancient Israelite thinkers to suppose when things did not go as planned or expected? . . . . How were they to explain the fact that the people of God suffered from famine, drought, and pestilence?"

Ehrman knows and surveys the standard answers to these questions – God is angry at a sinful, disobedient people; suffering is redemptive, as Christ demonstrated on the cross; evil and suffering exist so that God can make good out of them; suffering induces humility and is an antidote to pride; suffering is a test of faith – but he finds them unpersuasive and as horrible in their way as the events they fail to explain: "If God tortures, maims and murders people just to see how they will react – to see if they will not blame him, when in fact he is to blame – then this does not seem to me to be a God worthy of worship."

And as for the argument (derived from God's speech out of the whirlwind in the Book of Job) that God exists on a level far beyond the comprehension of those who complain about his ways, "Doesn't this view mean that God can maim, torment, and murder at will and not be held accountable? . . . . Does might make right?"

These questions are as old as Epicurus, who gave them canonical form: "Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence, then, evil."

Many books of theology and philosophy have been written in response to Epicurus's conundrums, but Ehrman's isn't one of them. What impels him is not the fascination of intellectual puzzles, but the anguish produced by what he sees when he opens his eyes. "If he could do miracles for his people throughout the Bible, where is he today when your son is killed in a car accident, or your husband gets multiple sclerosis? . . . I just don't see anything redemptive when Ethiopian babies die of malnutrition."

The horror of the pain and suffering he instances leads Ehrman to be scornful of those who respond to it with cool abstract analyses: "What I find morally repugnant about such books is that they are so far removed from the actual pain and suffering that takes place in our world."

He might have been talking about Antony Flew's "There Is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind." Flew, a noted professor of philosophy, announced in 2004 that after decades of writing essays and books from the vantage point of atheism, he now believes in God. "Changed his mind" is not a casual formulation. Flew wouldn't call what has happened to him a conversion, for that would suggest something unavailable to analysis. His journey, he tells us, is best viewed as "a pilgrimage of reason," an extension of his life-long habit of "following the argument no matter where it leads."

Where it led when he was a schoolboy was to the same place Ehrman arrived at after many years of devout Christian practice: "I was regularly arguing with fellow sixth formers that the idea of a God who is both omnipotent and perfectly good is incompatible with the manifest evils and imperfections of the world." For much of his philosophical career, Flew continued the argument in debates with a distinguished list of philosophers, scientists, theologians and historians. And then, gradually and to his own great surprise, he found that his decades-long "exploration of the Divine ha[d] after all these years turned from denial to discovery."

What exactly did he discover? That by interrogating atheism with the same rigor he had directed at theism, he could begin to shake the foundations of that dogmatism. He poses to his former fellow atheists the following question: "What would have to occur or have occurred to constitute for you a reason to at least consider the existence of a superior Mind." He knows that a cornerstone of the atheist creed is an argument that he himself made many times – the sufficiency of the materialist natural world as an explanation of how things work. "I pointed out," he recalls, that "even the most complex entities in the universe – human beings – are the products of unconscious physical and mechanical forces."

But it is precisely the word "unconscious" that, in the end, sends Flew in another direction. How, he asks, do merely physical and mechanical forces – forces without mind, without consciousness – give rise to the world of purposes, thoughts and moral projects? "How can a universe of mindless matter produce beings with intrinsic ends [and] self-replication capabilities?" In short (this is the title of a chapter), "How Did Life Go Live?"

Flew does not deny the explanatory power of materialist thought when the question is how are we to understand the physical causes of this or that event or effect. He's is just contending that what is explained by materialist thought – the intricate workings of nature – itself demands an explanation, and materialist thought cannot supply it. Scientists, he says, "are dealing with the interaction of chemicals, whereas our questions have to do with how something can be intrinsically purpose-driven and how matter can be managed by symbol processing?" These queries, Flew insists, exist on entirely different levels and the knowledge gained from the first can not be used to illuminate the second.

In an appendix to the book, Abraham Varghese makes Flew's point with the aid of an everyday example: "To suggest that the computer 'understands' what it is doing is like saying that a power line can meditate on the question of free will and determinism or that the chemicals in a test tube can apply the principle of non-contradiction in solving a problem, or that a DVD player understands and enjoys the music it plays."

How did purposive behavior of the kind we engage in all the time – understanding, meditating, enjoying – ever emerge from electrons and chemical elements?

The usual origin-of-life theories, Flew observes, are caught in an infinite regress that can only be stopped by an arbitrary statement of the kind he himself used to make: " . . . our knowledge of the universe must stop with the big bang, which is to be seen as the ultimate fact." Or, "The laws of physics are 'lawless laws' that arise from the void – end of discussion." He is now persuaded that such pronouncements beg the crucial question – why is there something rather than nothing? – a question to which he replies with the very proposition he argued against for most of his life: "The only satisfactory explanation for the origin of such 'end-directed, self-replicating' life as we see on earth is an infinitely intelligent Mind."

Will Ehrman be moved to reconsider his present position and reconvert if he reads Flew's book? Not likely, because Flew remains throughout in the intellectual posture Ehrman finds so arid. Flew assures his readers that he "has had no connection with any of the revealed religions," and no "personal experience of God or any experience that may be called supernatural or religious." Nor does he tells us in this book of any experience of the pain and suffering that haunts Ehrman's every sentence.

Where Ehrman begins and ends with the problem of evil, Flew only says that it is a question that "must be faced," but he is not going to face it in this book because he has been concerned with the prior "question of God's existence." Answering that question affirmatively leaves the other still open (one could always sever the Godly attributes of power and benevolence, and argue that the absence of the second does not tell against the reality of the first).

Flew is for the moment satisfied with the intellectual progress he has been able to make. Ehrman is satisfied with nothing, and the passion and indignation he feels at the manifest inequities of the world are not diminished in the slightest when he writes his last word.

Is there a conclusion to be drawn from these two books, at once so similar in their concerns and so different in their ways of addressing them? Does one or the other persuade?

Perhaps an individual reader of either will have his or her mind changed, but their chief value is that together they testify to the continuing vitality and significance of their shared subject. Both are serious inquiries into matters that have been discussed and debated by sincere and learned persons for many centuries. The project is an old one, but these authors pursue it with an energy and goodwill that invite further conversation with sympathetic and unsympathetic readers alike.

In short, these books neither trivialize their subject nor demonize those who have a different view of it, which is more than can be said for the efforts of those fashionable atheist writers whose major form of argument would seem to be ridicule.

(In an article published Sunday — November 4 — in the New York Times Magazine, Mark Oppenheimer more than suggests that Flew, now in his 80's, did not write the book that bears his name, but allowed Roy Varghese (listed as co-author) to compile it from the philosopher's previous writings and some extended conversations. Whatever the truth is about the authorship of the book, the relation of its argument and trajectory to the argument and trajectory of Ehrman's book stands.)

Comments 1 - 35 of 35 |

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1. Comment #85692 by Cartomancer on November 6, 2007 at 9:27 pm

 avatarI see... so The God Delusion reaches its conclusion because of the intractability of the problem of evil does it? I must have a copy with misprints then, because mine has a passage where Richard Dawkins says he has never been impressed by this argument and finds the argument from improbability much more persuasive. Oh, and I've lost all the smug, shrill and harsh bits too, but I think they deliberately missed those out of the special print run for atheists that we all seemed to get hold of.

And are we really back on the tired old "you can't get consciousness from unconscious matter" line? You might as well ask how you can get omelletes from eggs when there is no trace of intrinsic omelletosity in any egg you can find...

Other Comments by Cartomancer

2. Comment #85694 by Johan on November 6, 2007 at 9:38 pm

In religious reasoning (sorry for the oxymoron), why is it that the question "why is there something rather than nothing" never seems to apply to god as well?

Other Comments by Johan

3. Comment #85695 by Russell Blackford on November 6, 2007 at 9:43 pm

RD does explicitly disclaim any reliance on the Problem of Evil in The God Delusion. I remember the point well, since it was one point on which I disagreed with him - I think it is still a very powerful argument and has never been answered satisfactorily. It doesn't prove that there is no god at all (perhaps evil or indifferent to suffering), but it does expose how unlikely it is that a benevolent god exists, and the debate about it shows the intellectual contrivances needed to sustain faith in the God of the orthodox Abrahamic theologians.

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4. Comment #85696 by BAEOZ on November 6, 2007 at 9:50 pm

 avatar
Whence, then, evil?

I field that question. Evil comes from me! Yes, I'm an evil bastard. Thank you, I do matinees on Thursdays. Try the veal!

Other Comments by BAEOZ

5. Comment #85698 by Nuclearman on November 6, 2007 at 10:12 pm

Is this not the same philosopher Flew who, in a previous article here, was shown to have had his declining state of mind preyed upon by the religionist wolves in sheep's clothing?

This should be kept thoroughly in mind while reading this article.

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6. Comment #85699 by Eric Blair on November 6, 2007 at 10:12 pm

More than just an argument, for some atheists (Albert Camus comes to mind) the problem of evil and God's apparent indifference to suffering completely eclipses the logical improbability of God as the key reason why they reject religion.

It's not an easy issue for believers, either -- Camus' friend Simone Weill, a Jew who converted to Catholicism, basically starved herself to death trying to share the suffering of concentration camp victims in an irrational and tragic attempt to resolve the conundrum through her own life.

EB

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7. Comment #85701 by Quine on November 6, 2007 at 10:27 pm

 avatarAmazing timing, I was just talking about Ehrman on another thread. It looks like religion is decomposing into philosophy, and these days, in philosophy all roads lead to consciousness. (And yet, Dennett has taken a break from his great work on consciousness to talk about religion.) We had a good time on the materialism thread over in the RD Forum earlier this year.

Other Comments by Quine

8. Comment #85702 by stevencarrwork on November 6, 2007 at 10:28 pm

Flew has not written a new book.

Roy Varghese wrote all the original writing for it, and then an evangelical pastor rewrote parts of it.

Other Comments by stevencarrwork

9. Comment #85705 by stevencarrwork on November 6, 2007 at 10:37 pm

'How did purposive behavior of the kind we engage in all the time – understanding, meditating, enjoying – ever emerge from electrons and chemical elements?'

Easy.

It was magic.

God did it 'Just like that', to quote Tommy Cooper.

Why can't God make a computer understand anything? Varghese claims it is impossible for a DVD player to enjoy the music it plays.

I guess some things are just too hard for his god to make.

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10. Comment #85711 by windweaver on November 6, 2007 at 11:18 pm

 avatarThe author of this article,Stanley Fish, was the victim of the famous Sokal Hoax. Sokal is a physicist who wrote a mock essay criticising modern science from a post modern perpective. Fish, a fervent post-modernist who views science as a white male dominated "discourse", fell for the hoax hook, line and sinker and published the essay in his Social Text journal. He became a laughing stock in the academic world when Sokal revealed the ruse in the jornal Lingua Franca. He explains his reasons for the hoax here:
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/lingua_franca_v4/lingua_franca_v4.html

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11. Comment #85757 by stephenray on November 7, 2007 at 2:45 am

One can only suppose that Flew's mental faculties evaporated with age, otherwise he would see that the postulation of 'an infinitely intelligent mind' provides literally no answer to the question of the complexity or existence of the universe.
Yes, it may be that we have, as freethinkers, to acknowledge that there may never be an answer to "whence the big bang?", but it's no improvement to answer 'an infinitely intelligent mind' cos then we have to go through the whole rigmarole again and ask "whence the infinitely intelligent mind?"

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12. Comment #85764 by Infozombie on November 7, 2007 at 3:11 am

 avatarHere's Flew being interviewed by apologetic "journalist" Lee Strobel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeCt1rK9MEc

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13. Comment #85796 by Linda on November 7, 2007 at 6:09 am

Fish writes:-

"Flew assures his readers that he "has had no connection with any of the revealed religions," and no "personal experience of God or any experience that may be called supernatural or religious."

When I thought about Flew's age it seemed illogical and nearly impossible that anyone born in 1923 would not have been conditioned from birth into a religious superstition. It just didn't happen in any community that Atheist parents opted out of what was then the social norm. A quick bio check on Flew reveals that he either senile or a liar:-

"Antony Flew, the son of a Methodist minister, was born in London, England. He was educated at St Faith's School, Cambridge followed by Kingswood School, Bath."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Flew

Why didn't Fish challenge the book based on Flew's early education and indoctrination? Many elderly people engage in fantasies in which they have difficulty separating or romanticizing the past and confusing it with the present. That doesn't preclude them from being able to complete the NYT cryptic crossword.

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14. Comment #85798 by Mat on November 7, 2007 at 6:12 am

Cartomancer - "omelletosity" - a fine addition to the English language, made me laugh!

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15. Comment #85803 by Bonzai on November 7, 2007 at 6:34 am

Linda,


"Flew assures his readers that he "has had no connection with any of the revealed religions," and no "personal experience of God or any experience that may be called supernatural or religious."


Just because your father is a minister and you go to Church it doesn't mean that you will have a personal experience of God or a supernatural encounter. This should be self evident for atheists.

Flew indeed has had no intellectual connection with any revealed religion in his adult life. Even forgetting for the moment about the dubious circumstances surrounding his "conversion", he still admits only to being a Deist and continues to reject Christianity and any personal God, that doesn't connect him to any revealed religion.

You seem to be insinuating that his early education has somehow to do with his newly discovered Deism. I don't believe in original sin, and I don't believe a person should be forever "tainted" simply because of his youthful exposure to religious teaching, which in Flew's case happened more than half a century ago.

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16. Comment #85825 by irate_atheist on November 7, 2007 at 9:27 am

 avatarWords words words words words.

Not a shred of evidence.

Move along please, nothing to see here...

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17. Comment #85837 by cowalker on November 7, 2007 at 9:53 am

No religious belief in a "good" creator except one that postulates reincarnation explains the problem of suffering.

It's very clear that animals suffer from the effects of thirst, starvation, injuries, illness, old age, and even emotions such as fear, loneliness and bereavement. If you give special meaning only to human suffering, saying it has some kind of purifying or soul-building purpose, you are saying that the Creator deliberately chose to populate earth with billions of creatures who suffer meaninglessly. The only way to rescue the creator as a "moral" being, ie. one that shares human values and empathizes with its creatures, is to assume that animal suffering also has meaning.

So it's true that suffering only disproves some supreme creators, not all.

Of course the explanation that an amoral evolutionary process resulted in life on earth fits the facts perfectly. The experience of suffering works the majority of the time to discourage dangerous behavior and to encourage behavior that maintains health, life and reproduction. Sometimes there's nothing to be done, but the mechanism works the same, because there's no way for the biological process to "know" that no behavior will save the situation.

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18. Comment #85846 by Arcturus on November 7, 2007 at 10:13 am

 avatarI find the concept of "materialism" to be so outdated. Why do people still use it? Haven't they heard about physics, about quantum physics? There is no such thing as matter, it's only a concept, an illusion. Everything is energy, fields, forces.

Stop using this word - materialism!

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19. Comment #85854 by Linda on November 7, 2007 at 10:35 am

Bonzai – It is really difficult to purge early childhood conditioning from our memory data banks. Flew would have been subjected to constant indoctrination of biblical myths and superstition by his parents. No doubt bedtime stories consisted of Bronze Age science fiction tales from the bible. Did he know that religion was ridiculous at age 6 but kept his head down until he was and adult?

As for Flew's loss of mental faculties, that happens and if you look around at some elderly people they regress into infantile fantasies but can also hold a conversation. It seems to me that the guy has lost the plot.

I really hope that when Richard Dawkins is leaving that he doesn't lose his mind and that the wish to have Josh (chortle) make a video to prove that he's true to the end is fulfilled.

The whole conversation around the gods question is really absurd and it shouldn't matter one way or another. Sadly the real danger is from the constant threats to social stability and emotional evolution originating in the corporate imperialism of religion forced on all of us by clerics that self empower to control others based on no evidence.

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20. Comment #85869 by evaporated on November 7, 2007 at 11:15 am

why is there something rather than nothing?


This is a great question, but 'God' (especially a mute, immaterial, formless one residing in an incomprehensible realm 'outside' spacetime), and 'super intellegence' are just a continuation of it, not an answer to it.

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21. Comment #85918 by BigJohn on November 7, 2007 at 1:26 pm

 avatarTheidiocy indeed.

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22. Comment #85937 by jaytee_555 on November 7, 2007 at 2:15 pm

By Flew's(?!) reasoning, evil must have its origin in God. If this is true, then God is not to be worshipped, but rejected. Conversely, if it is not true, the problem becomes 'how could 'evil' arise? - since it is a 'purpose-driven' form of information just as much as 'good' is.

If evil can exist without having been created by God, then so can everything else.

This was my simple intuitive reaction to the article, so if this reasoning is faulty, I'd appreciate someone picking the bones out of it for me.

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23. Comment #85940 by jaytee_555 on November 7, 2007 at 2:22 pm

Just another idle thought.....

I wonder if God (if he exists) ever wonders where he himself came from. Surely he cannot be certain that he was always there. How could he be sure that he hadn't been created with a sort of false-memory that made him think he was older than he actually is by some super-super-intelligence with a sense of humour?

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24. Comment #86008 by kraut on November 7, 2007 at 8:11 pm

WTF - the amount of brainpower absolutely wasted on a hypothetical entity is just staggering. Just postulate god does not exist, nor is he necessary to explain existence, and there is no conundrum any more. The world is just like no creator existed.

I am just staggered by the fact that people actually seem to NEED a creator being.

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25. Comment #86030 by kraut on November 7, 2007 at 11:31 pm

Too much staggering - that what this intellectual diarrhea does to one...

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26. Comment #86070 by Theocrapcy on November 8, 2007 at 4:09 am

 avatarWhat the fuck is wrong with fornication?

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27. Comment #86071 by clodhopper on November 8, 2007 at 4:09 am

 avatar
"The only satisfactory explanation for the origin of such 'end-directed, self-replicating' life as we see on earth is an infinitely intelligent Mind."


read....The explanation satisfies me...therefore God exists.

I am indeed self-replicating life and to this end is my end directed.

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28. Comment #86172 by TheCelestialTeapot on November 8, 2007 at 2:04 pm

What I find to be unbelievably ironic rests on my observation that the religious or those wanting or needing or wishing in a Creator must use a whole lot of ideas developed through the imagination. A religious person imagines what god may be like. A religious person imagines heaven and hell. A religious person wonders about things like angels and demons. A religous person imagines a whole lot of things all the time in order to develop a bloody fiction. Why is it then that Stanly Fish and the rest demonstrate, on a regular basis, a complete lack of imagination when they are confronted with a materialistic explanation of the world and universe? Why is it not possible for consciousness to be the result of chemical reactions and neurons firing in the brain? Why are the mathematical postulations and probabilities concerning the universe so difficult to comprehend? Evolution, possibly one of the easiest scientific facts to understand, is butchered by the minds of those who lack the imagination to picture a simple deterministic process. It is near impossible for a religious person to view the earth millions of years ago, covered with some water and other chemicals, being bombarded by lightning and generating the first bits of life. It will be forever puzzling to me that the religious can invent a million different nonsensical and fantastic stories and explanations, yet at the same time lack the little bit of imagination required in order to visualize how science would work in different situations.

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29. Comment #86176 by Quine on November 8, 2007 at 2:33 pm

 avatarAn excellent question, CT, and well phrased.

Some have noticed that the characteristics of imagination seem ideal for religion. However, I suspect that the memeplex of religion has evolved over time to fit the characteristics of human imagination like a glove fits a hand.

At some point in the evolution of life it became valuable for an organism to be able to tell if some other was living versus inanimate; living might eat you, whereas inanimate was mostly harmless. When dealing with other living things it became progressively more valuable to predict what those other living things were going to do, thus originated a theory of other minds. An imagination capability for how chemical reactions could give rise to an other self, was not particularly valuable when compared to a relatively cartoonlike ability to impune intent to other operators. We see universally across cultures that children with as yet undeveloped brains relate so quickly and easily to cartoons, ideas, and stories of talking animals and even animated houses, trees or other objects. Is there any wonder that religion can ride upon these imaginations to produce ghosts, angels, and other talking beings out of nothing?

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30. Comment #86181 by Arcturus on November 8, 2007 at 3:04 pm

 avatarCelestial Teapot, I see that you did not care about my revolt against the word "materialism" :)

Why? why?

ps: I sometimes have weird moments, when I imagine everything around me being an illusion, and think of solid things as begin nothing but empty space filled with atoms. It's like that moment in Matrix when Neo sees the "code". Am I the only one?

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31. Comment #86189 by Quine on November 8, 2007 at 3:46 pm

 avatarArcturus,

That matter is patterned energy makes no difference to the philosophy of materialism. However, I do agree that the term has become less useful because of the pop use (thanks, Madonna) of materialistic, which leads many people to think philosophic materialism is economic materialism (he who dies with the most toys, wins).


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32. Comment #86191 by Arcturus on November 8, 2007 at 4:02 pm

 avatarQuine, of course it's just a word/definition. I've seen people using "physicalism" though.

Funny thing, you never know how words will be used. Let me tell you a really funny story, which tells you loads about what we are dealing with. I attended once a physics conference "American Physical Society Meeting", and at the border of Canada and US the officer asked me "so, what are you doing there, wrestling?".

We should be more careful with the words that we use, they will eventually turn against us if we misuse them.

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33. Comment #86193 by Quine on November 8, 2007 at 4:15 pm

 avatarYes, that is why I rarely use physicalism in public. Then, if you use naturalism they think you are a nudist. Non-supernaturalism is too big a mouthful. It goes on and on, so I stick with "materialism" in the presence of those who know what it means, and "philosophical materialism" for those who need to go look it up.

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34. Comment #86242 by Samson Agonistes on November 8, 2007 at 7:48 pm

'Fashionable atheists?' Sounds like a term of ridicule itself; but I'm not sure why there's anything wrong with ridicule, in the public sphere. Surely sufficiently weak arguments deserve to be laughed at, their absurd consequences exposed. Fish sounds a little stung--like maybe some emails or other responses to his counter-atheist ramblings turned his face red, and he wants to hurt to assuage the hurt.

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35. Comment #86412 by steveroot on November 9, 2007 at 7:09 am

 avatar
27. Comment #86071 by clodhopper on November 8, 2007 at 4:09 am

"I am indeed self-replicating life and to this end is my end directed."

Kindly direct your end elsewhere or we'll end up with another book cover!
Steve ;-)

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