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Saturday, November 10, 2007 | Reason : Backlash | print version Print | Comments

Document Holy communion

by Richard Norman, New Humanist

UPDATE: PZ Myers responds. CLICK HERE

Thanks to Brian English for the link.

Reposted from:
http://newhumanist.org.uk/1623

It's not been a good year for God. Richard Dawkins's The God Delusion and Christopher Hitchens's God is Not Great have been riding high in the international bestseller lists, while in the US Sam Harris has addressed his Letter to a Christian Nation and Daniel Dennett's Breaking the Spell has explored the question of how to explain the irrationality of religious belief. Michel Onfray's In Defence of Atheism has added a distinctively French tone to the assault, and AC Grayling's latest collection of elegant English essays is Against All Gods. It's not surprising that cultural commentators have identified a cultural wave, and given it a label: "The New Atheism".

bad comicThen there has been the rush of responses. Alastair McGrath's The Dawkins Delusion and John Cornwell's Darwin's Angel have replied to Dawkins in particular, and John Humphrys has followed up his radio interviews of religious leaders with a book, In God We Doubt, which is subtitled Confessions of a Failed Atheist (he can't bring himself to accept religious belief but he thinks it would be nice to be able to do so).

My intention here is to stand back a little from this parade of views and counterviews and ask about its implications for the humanist movement. What can we, as humanists in Britain now, learn from the debate around the New Atheism?

We should begin by recognising that the "New Atheism" is not really new. Its distinctive themes – religion as the enemy of science, of progress and of an enlightened morality – are in a direct line of descent from the 18th-century enlightenment and 19th-century rationalism. The "new" movement is better seen as a revival, a reassertion of the values of rational thought and vigorous argument. It has struck people as new because it has given new life to old disagreements and debates and done so with great panache and style. But we need to beware of fighting old battles in a world which has moved on.

What kick-started the New Atheism was, of course, the attack on the Twin Towers. That event, and subsequent acts of Islamist-inspired terrorism, reminded the world of the terrible deeds that can be performed in the name of religious fanaticism, especially if it is reinforced by dreams of immediate rewards in paradise. How to combat Islamist fanaticism is obviously a pressing question. At the same time, it would be foolish to let our attitudes to all religions and all religious believers be coloured by a small set of specific outrages.

A second development which no doubt reinforced the New Atheism was the resurgence of creationism, on a small scale in the UK and on a scarily large scale in the US. In the States it's linked with the religious right and the malign influence of Christian fundamentalists on politics and government. Unsurprisingly, it's in the US that the New Atheism seems to be taking shape as a cultural movement, not just a publishing success. Dawkins has launched the "Out" campaign, encouraging American atheists to "come out". The success of these developments is sufficient evidence that they respond to a real need, and they reflect the extent to which American atheists have felt beleaguered. In some parts of the US it takes courage to come out as an atheist. But let's be honest – in Britain today, for most of us, it's a doddle.

This points to the danger of over-generalising about religion and about religious believers. By far the commonest criticism directed against the New Atheists is that they do over-generalise, and I think that the criticism is justified. To avoid being guilty of the same mistake myself, I'll focus only on the two bestsellers, Dawkins and Hitchens, because their books have done most to generate the larger movement. They are quite explicit in their desire to generalise about religion. Dawkins says: "I do everything in my power to warn people against faith itself, not just against so-called 'extremist' faith. The teachings of 'moderate' religion, though not extremist in themselves, are an open invitation to extremism."

And Hitchens is even more frank: his subtitle is "religion poisons everything". That really is too simple. In the "religion" that Dawkins and Hitchens relentlessly attack I simply do not recognise the many good, sensitive, intelligent and sometimes wonderful religious people I know.

Of course the generalisations are not just crude prejudices, they are considered and they are defended, and we should examine the reasons Dawkins and Hitchens give. For Dawkins the problem is that all religious believers are committed to faith rather than reason. He is rightly appalled by the resurgence of creationism, by the fact that many people still reject neo-Darwinian evolutionary theory because it is incompatible with a literal reading of the first chapter of Genesis. He knows perfectly well that the vast majority of Christians and other religious believers in Britain (though, worryingly, not in the US) are not creationists, but he thinks that, just by accepting the idea of "faith", they have sold out. He says: "Fundamentalist religion is hell-bent on ruining the scientific education of young minds. Non-fundamentalist, 'sensible' religion may not be doing that, but it is making the world safe for fundamentalism by teaching children ... that unquestioning faith is a virtue."

So for him the difference between the so-called moderate, sensible religious believers and the fundamentalists is a minor one. He thinks that the real divide is between science and religion, because science is based on reason and religion is a matter of faith. In other words it's religion as such that is the problem.

Is that right? We need to be aware of the ambiguities of the word "faith". In some cases faith is no more or less than a set of overarching beliefs with which people make sense of the world. All religions are faiths in the first sense, and so is humanism, though most of us would prefer not to use the word because of its other connotations. There's no necessary opposition between faith in this sense and reason.

But faith can also refer to our readiness to accept beliefs on grounds which are not conclusive. This covers a range of cases, from a hunch which you think will be confirmed, to a well-founded expectation based on past experience. A creationist website links to a video clip of Dawkins saying that he has "faith" that fossils will be found to fill gaps in the fossil record. He didn't mean faith in the creationists' sense of believing it without evidence, but it's a perfectly legitimate sense of the word – a belief backed by previous experience, for which further confirmation is sought. And though it's not the creationists' sense of the word, there are plenty of religious believers who would say that they have faith in this sense. They can't prove that there's a god, so their commitment goes beyond the evidence, but it's not unsupported.

Faith is also a way of describing a commitment to a belief which has no rational basis. Are there religious believers with this sort of unmediated belief? Yes, I'm sure there are, though I suspect that they often play on the ambiguity between that version of faith and the more everyday manner in which we say that we have faith in a person, that we trust them. I'm thinking of the evangelical Christians who say things like "How can I doubt God, since he has saved me, I have this special relationship with him and I trust him with everything in my life." But the general point is that faith means different things for different religious believers, and from the fact that they claim to have faith you can't infer that they are all irrationalists who believe things on "blind faith" without any evidence and have therefore sold the pass to the creationists.

Take the case of the many people who both hold a religious belief and accept evolutionary theory. They value scientific method, they accept the scientific evidence, and they say that the origin of species through natural selection just is the process by which God has created all living things. The question they then have to answer is: if we've got the scientific account, why do we also need a belief in divine creation? They would probably say something like this: the theory of evolution explains how living things have come into existence, but it doesn't explain why there existed, in the first place, a universe suited to lead to the evolution of life. Many Christians these days are keen on the so-called "fine-tuning argument": that if the basic physical constants had been just slightly different, the Big Bang would not have led to the emergence of galaxies and suns and planets, including at least one planet with the right conditions for the evolution of life. The initial conditions had to be "just right", and God is the best explanation of why they were.

Dawkins has an excellent reply to this argument. He argues that whatever the explanation of the initial conditions may be, God is not a good explanation, because the existence of a hugely powerful intelligence who knew all the physical constants and scientific laws is even more difficult to explain than the things it is supposed to account for. The essential point is one about "simplicity". Philosophers like Richard Swinburne argue that the best explanation is the most economical one, and explaining the universe by divine intention is the preferred explanation because it is the simplest. Dawkins rightly points out that this is a confusion. The explanation in terms of a divine creator may be simply stated, but the entity which is supposed to do the explaining is a highly complex entity, not a "simple" one. I agree with Dawkins. The argument fails. But it is still an argument. As so often, deciding whether an argument succeeds is a matter of judgement – of faith, if you like, in the second sense. But a mistaken argument is still an argument, still an appeal to reason and evidence. For a great many religious believers, belief in a god is like that – faith, but not "blind faith".

Dawkins also thinks that it is blind faith that leads to crazy acts of religious fanaticism. "Even mild and moderate religion," he says, "helps to provide the climate of faith in which extremism naturally flourishes." He's thinking, obviously, of suicide bombers and Islamist terrorists, not to mention Christian extremists who murder abortionists, Hindus who slaughter Muslims, and all the rest of the fanatics. It was the killing of 3,000 people in the World Trade Centre that was the initial spur for the New Atheism, and for Dawkins it demonstrated that it is not extremism, but religion as such, that is the problem.
That's also Hitchens's view, and I turn to him now. His reason for generalising about all religion, for claiming that religion poisons everything, is primarily an appeal to the historical record. He has no difficulty compiling an appalling catalogue of all the terrible things done in the name of religion. The Old Testament is full of justifications for massacre and slavery. The Koran contains incitements to intolerance and the spreading of Islam by force. In the modern world, in the name of religion, rival groups have been slaughtering one another in the Middle East, Northern Ireland, Yugoslavia, the Indian subcontinent and elsewhere. People's lives are blighted by repressive religious views and practices concerning abortion, contraception, masturbation and genital mutilation. And the length of the list demonstrates, for Hitchens, that religion poisons everything.

But it's a selective list, and it's not enough to justify the generalisation, since it invites the response: "What about all the good things done in the name of religion? What about all the religious believers who have stood up against political repression, who have worked for peace and tolerance, who have campaigned for justice and against slavery and poverty, and have devoted themselves to improving the lot of their fellow human beings?" Hitchens's answer is that if people do these things, it's not really their religion that motivates them – "this is a compliment to humanism, not to religion". The classic example is Martin Luther King, whom Hitchens rightly admires. King was a committed Christian who used the language of the Old Testament, the language of the "promised land", to inspire the Civil Rights movement. Hitchens says that this is mere metaphor. Although King uses the image of Moses leading his people out of Egypt, there is nothing equivalent to Moses's exhortation to massacre the other tribes in the land which God had promised to the people of Israel. King preached non-violence, and did not advocate revenge against white racists. Therefore, Hitchens infers, he was not a real Christian: "When Dr King took a stand ... he did so as a profound humanist and nobody could ever use his name to justify oppression or cruelty ... his legacy has very little to do with his professed theology. ... In no real as opposed to nominal sense, then, was he a Christian."

The circularity in Hitchens's argument is obvious. Religion poisons everything. What about the good things done in the name of religion? If they're really good, that just shows that they're not really religious. The same circular argument appears in Hitchens's discussion of the atrocities generated by secular creeds. He says of totalitarian societies that because their leaders are regarded as infallible, such states are theocracies and therefore essentially religious. So the counter-examples simply confirm, for Hitchens, that it's religion that poisons everything.

Hitchens's appeal to the historical record is what I call the "headcount" argument – "Your lot have killed more people than our lot." It gets us nowhere. The fact is that human beings are capable of doing terrible things and they are capable of doing wonderful things. This is true of religious believers, it's true of atheists, and it shouldn't surprise us. Religion – here I agree with another of Hitchens's persistent themes – is a human creation. It is, I suggest, a mirror which humanity holds up to itself and in which it sees itself reflected. Human beings attribute to their gods all their own human qualities – cruelty, revenge and hatred, but also love and compassion and mercy. That's why you can find a justification for anything, good or bad, in religion.

For Dawkins and for Hitchens that is part of the problem. Religious believers cannot avoid cherry-picking. They select from their sacred texts whatever fits their prior agenda. The homophobes pick out the texts from Leviticus or the Koran which order the killing of gays; their opponents say that this is incompatible with the idea of a god of compassion and tolerance. The warmongers and jihadists pick out the injunctions to slaughter; the peacemakers appeal to the contrary texts. Religions are deeply contradictory, and the application of them will always be selective.

But that is precisely why we should not lump all religious believers together.
Humanism is more than atheism, it is about putting humanist beliefs and values into practice and trying to make the world a better place. And that is impossible unless we're prepared to cooperate with others who share those values, including those for whom the values are inseparable from a religious commitment.

It goes deeper than that. For many humanists, religious believers are also friends, lovers, colleagues, neighbours, spouses and partners. The attitude that religion poisons everything is unlikely to be an auspicious basis for such relationships. We really do need something a bit more nuanced.

And this brings me to my practical conclusion. If we are serious about our humanist values, we should look for all those who share them, and work with them. If, according to Hitchens, that means that such people are really humanists after all, then call them that if you wish, but accept that they may also be committed Christians or Muslims or Hindus or Buddhists or whatever. The labels don't matter. If Christians are happy to defend science against the idiocies of creationism, let's work with them. When the news broke that state schools in this country were teaching creationism as science, Dawkins and Richard Harries, then Bishop of Oxford, issued a joint statement of criticism. Dawkins has been accused of inconsistency in doing so but it doesn't matter, it was the right thing to do and it was highly effective. After the most recent attempted suicide bombings in Britain, national newspapers carried a full-page advertisement by Muslim organisations condemning the bombings and dissociating themselves from them. What are we supposed to say? "You're just as bad"? That would be madness. They need our encouragement, and we need their help.

We have problems enough in the world. The threats of climate change, global poverty, war and repression and intolerance can never be countered unless we are prepared to work together on the basis of a shared humanity. Simplistic generalisations about religion don't help. In Dawkins's terminology, that means working with the "moderates" to counter the "extremists", but it's actually more complicated than that. Some of our allies against creationism may be deeply prejudiced against gays. Some of the best people working to combat global poverty may be Catholic anti-abortionists. Some of the Muslim allies we need to counter Islamist violence may have deeply sexist attitudes to women. It all demonstrates what a deeply contradictory phenomenon religion is. But we know that. And if religion is so contradictory, that's probably because human beings are a deeply contradictory species.


UPDATE: PZ Myers responds. CLICK HERE

Comments 1 - 50 of 82 |

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1. Comment #86844 by John Done on November 10, 2007 at 9:40 am

Again, here's the prominent view in the media, even in the humanist media, that religious moderates have it right. The fact of the matter is that faith is the reason why fundamentalists and extremists believe strange and terrible things. And why do moderates and liberals believe not-so-strange things? Faith. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but when it comes to a common cause between two phenomena, isn't a more even-handed approach appropriate? I know that approaching the two kinds of believers themselves shouldn't be so generalized, but when the reason two unnecessary ideas exist is the same, we should say so.

Take Sam Harris, for instance. He's already spoken publicly about the dangers of an even-handed approach to religion. And yet this does not keep him from warning people off from religious moderates and categorizing himself in the "destroy religion" crowd. This is because while we identify what keeps religious moderates from extremism, we still acknowledge how it is unnecessary for these people to believe at all and how it makes it all the more difficult for us to deal with fundamentalists.

I still stand by Harris' evaluation that the position of the religious moderates and liberals is the most intellectually absurd; they betray both faith and reason for the sake of their own comfort. But this "I'm an atheist but" shit has to rank pretty high up there as a threat to the success of our heresy. It isn't helping. We will ally ourselves with moderates as we see appropriate for the situation, but we will not stop being honest with ourselves and others, and when people hold stupid ideas that may well provide cover for extremists, we tell them so.

Accepting a godless universe is the easy part; getting others to see this while still having to respect the validity of faith-based ideas is damn near impossible.

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2. Comment #86860 by PrimeNumbers on November 10, 2007 at 10:38 am

 avatarThe problem is not religion or church, but faith and belief itself, irrational beliefs lead to irrational actions. It's the primary belief of the religious in some kind of afterlife that is the root cause of all their problems. It's that belief that allows you to sacrifice your own life or take someone elses.

That's why it's not just extremists that are the problem. They're all the problem. Let's not pussy-foot around here.

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3. Comment #86911 by Mr. Grape on November 10, 2007 at 12:24 pm

Not a very flattering cartoon. It's not surprising that somebody who is in defense of religion might subconsciously (or not) approve of their anti-gay stance and find it funny. After what homosexuals have gone through and are still going through, you would think they would be a little more sympathetic being the "true moderates". Maybe we were asking for it by labeling it the out campaign. :/

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4. Comment #86914 by ericcolumba on November 10, 2007 at 12:35 pm

 avatarJust wanted to make a small point on Humanism.
While living in Spain in the 90's I found it hard to believe that the main right wing party had chosen to call itself Partido Popular.Yes the popular party. They were still Partido Popular when they lost elections.The name sucks. It implies those who are not members are somehow inferior.
Well, in my opinion, the name humanism sucks a bit too.

This is the kind of supremacist thinking common to members of a particular religion be they Catholics, Muslims or any other.

Just wondered if anyone else shared my concerns

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5. Comment #86917 by ericcolumba on November 10, 2007 at 12:37 pm

 avatarOh, and calling yourself a bright sucks too.

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6. Comment #86937 by Mango on November 10, 2007 at 1:20 pm

 avatar
This points to the danger of over-generalising about religion and about religious believers.


in TGD Dawkins addresses belief in the supernatural that pertains to all theists. He *has to* generalize, and his generalization does no injustice to what defines a theist.

Other Comments by Mango

7. Comment #86940 by GodlessHeathen on November 10, 2007 at 1:32 pm

 avatarWow. That illustration is grotesque =>_<=

By the way, oh writer of the article, how do you manage to say this new atheism is hundred of years old AND say that it was kicked off by the World Trade Center attacks? I admit that odd dichotomy does seem to fit your overall reasoning, but ... yeesh.

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8. Comment #86980 by Dr Benway on November 10, 2007 at 8:48 pm

 avatarThat cartoon is pretty angry. WTF?

My brain is visual. Long after I've forgotten who wrote what, that image will stick.

With friends like the "New Humanists," who needs enemies?

Other Comments by Dr Benway

9. Comment #86986 by Cartomancer on November 10, 2007 at 9:05 pm

 avatarI'm not sure there's any real anti-gay bias in the cartoon. I'm certainly not offended by it in that way. Possibly the worst you could say is that they've tried for a striking disjunct between the obviously heterosexual Christopher Hitchens and the "out and proud" message of his placard. Maybe there is the hint of a suggestion that drawing such parallels is inappropriate - it certainly is here in the UK where New Humanist magazine is published. I was closeted on the sexuality issue throughout my teenage years, but I've been openly atheistic since I can remember with absolutely no trouble. The two situations are just not comparable on these shores. The gay rights issue is far more advanced over here too (patronising sops to the religious lobby in the House of Lords notwithstanding) and the British gay community is generally sufficiently secure in its confidence to laugh along at parodies of itself.

Dawkins seems to be portrayed not as a gay stereotype but as a woolly, sandal-wearing liberal dancing and frolicking with the birds in a dopey haze of wonder. I suppose this is just an exaggeration of the exhuberance he does actually display on matters of science. Maybe a little knocking, but hardly libelous.

Maybe we just expect this in our press to a far higher degree in England. I am constantly amazed at how little proper satire there is across the pond.

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10. Comment #86991 by ranman55 on November 10, 2007 at 9:22 pm

I view religious faith as a utensil or device used by the faithful to accept emotionally what
they cannot accept intellectually. In this context, having to employ faith in order to accept unproveable ideas is a virtual admission of disbelief of those ideas. I'd like to ask those religious people who KNOW that there is a god, what role faith plays in their lives, and how they reconcile their "knowledge" with their
faith.

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11. Comment #86993 by Dr Benway on November 10, 2007 at 9:30 pm

 avatar
I'm not sure there's any real anti-gay bias in the cartoon.
My gaydar doesn't work in the UK. Too many false positives. So I'll concede that you Brits might read Dawkins in that cartoon as joyful rather than totally queer.

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12. Comment #86997 by Eric Blair on November 10, 2007 at 11:10 pm

It sounds like many here want to win the ultimate battle but none of the battles along the way, if they involve a hint of compromise with even moderate theists.

So was Dawkins wrong to join with the Bishop in comdemning Creationism? Is "You're just as bad" the best response to the liberal Christians who fight against gay-bashers and allow homosexuals to become pastors?

Based on the sampling here, the "more atheist than Dawkins and proud of it" crowd seems certainly untainted by any sense of nuance, compromise, humour or self-criticism...

EB

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13. Comment #86999 by Fanusi Khiyal on November 10, 2007 at 11:25 pm

Okay, here we go. We keep being told that we atheists are just as bad as the worst religious fanatics - so, dammit let΄s start acting like it! I hereby demand that we march on the "New Humanist" offices with pitchforks and torches and signs saying: "BEAHEAD THOSE WHO INSULT RICHARD DAWKINS!"

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14. Comment #87006 by DNAtheist on November 11, 2007 at 1:28 am

 avatarI am sick of the humanists. Let them recruit theists if they want their movement to grow. This atheist has decided he won't be joining any of their organizations.

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15. Comment #87009 by Nick Good on November 11, 2007 at 1:42 am

 avatarThe problem I have with Humanism, is that it's species-ist; that's a genuine criticism not in the least bit tongue in cheek.

Does a five year old chimpanzee have less sentience than a newborn human infant? I rather doubt it.

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16. Comment #87092 by SilentMike on November 11, 2007 at 6:58 am

From Richard Norman's closing paragraph:
but it's actually more complicated than that. Some of our allies against creationism may be deeply prejudiced against gays. Some of the best people working to combat global poverty may be Catholic anti-abortionists. Some of the Muslim allies we need to counter Islamist violence may have deeply sexist attitudes to women. It all demonstrates what a deeply contradictory phenomenon religion is.


And this tells you... what?

Seriously, he's almost there. The moderates are better to work with then the extremists/fundamentalists because they are less religious. But even the moderates have their imperfections. Why? Because of religion. Religion is false. If you're less religious the human being comes out (sometimes that's good and sometimes not so much) and we can work together based on reason. Nobody's against cooperating with moderates on some issues. All rationalists (Richard Norman's word. Not mine) are saying is let us not forget that religion, even in moderate dilute form, is a very real problem.

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17. Comment #87115 by discipline on November 11, 2007 at 8:27 am

While I agree with Sam Harris and Richard that religious moderation fosters an acceptance of "faith" and paves the way for extremism, we have to think practically.

Here in the US, we are literally GENERATIONS from the kind of pure scientific rationality espoused by Richard. The situation is clearly different in Europe, but in the US, scientific education is so poor and politics are so corrupted by the religous right (and not just at the federal level), that we need to move the culture toward religious moderation as a first step.

Without coalitions between atheists and religious moderates/liberals, our efforts are just intellectual masturbation (fun, but about as useful). After all, the "God question" was essentially answered centuries ago during the Enlightenment; what remains is a political/cultural battle.

Atheists by themselves, through the sheer force of our arguments, will NOT win any time soon (in the US at least). Ultimate victory is one thing, incremental progress is another.

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18. Comment #87121 by Dr Benway on November 11, 2007 at 8:50 am

 avatar
Here in the US, we are literally GENERATIONS from the kind of pure scientific rationality espoused by Richard.
I agree with you. But I'm afraid we can't wait for reasonable progress at a reasonable pace. Humans are now a geological force upon the planet. They best wise up quickly or game over.

I'm curious: how many generations did it take for the Chinese to stop binding the feet of baby girls?

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19. Comment #87129 by BaronOchs on November 11, 2007 at 9:21 am

 avatarDr Benway Chinese footbinding finally dwindled away in about the 1920's.

On other matters what do you mean your gaydar gives false positives in Britain lol! I'm not bothered by the cartoon, british newspapers tend to feature crude cartoons of politicians and other people in the public eye. I see no reason to bother about it myself.

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20. Comment #87130 by steve99 on November 11, 2007 at 9:25 am

 avatar
I see no reason to bother about it myself.


As I said, try and imagine your reaction if they were poking fun at Dawkins by drawing him as black, or asian...

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21. Comment #87134 by halucigenia on November 11, 2007 at 9:35 am

 avatar
Some of our allies against creationism may be deeply prejudiced against gays. Some of the best people working to combat global poverty may be Catholic anti-abortionists. Some of the Muslim allies we need to counter Islamist violence may have deeply sexist attitudes to women. It all demonstrates what a deeply contradictory phenomenon religion is. But we know that. And if religion is so contradictory, that's probably because human beings are a deeply contradictory species.

All the more reason as I usually say never to trust anyone who is religious - they all have ulterior motives. By all means enlist their help when one can, but never forget to put them down for their delusions after using them.

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22. Comment #87136 by Dr Benway on November 11, 2007 at 9:50 am

 avatar
BaronOchs: I'm not bothered by the cartoon, British newspapers tend to feature crude cartoons of politicians and other people in the public eye.
Yeah but the humanists are our pals, our buds, no? S'not the same as the newspapers. How would you feel if your best mates drew a pic of you looking retarded and passed it round?
Chinese footbinding finally dwindled away in about the 1920's.
Well that's encouraging, innit?

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23. Comment #87141 by BaronOchs on November 11, 2007 at 10:14 am

 avatar
As I said, try and imagine your reaction if they were poking fun at Dawkins by drawing him as black, or asian...


If we lived in a world without racism I wouldn't have a problem but because there is still plenty of real racism you can't use it as a cartoon joke. The same is surely true about homophobia at the present time and perhaps for quite a while to come.

If it wasn't for the out'n'proud sign I'm not sure I'd be convinced this was really an anti-gay anti-dawkins cartoon though. I just took the rose cheeks and bluebirds as mocking his supposed naive optimism, i.e. if we'd just abandon religion a golden age will bloom.


and these are some allright cartoons:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/cartoon/

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24. Comment #87144 by BaronOchs on November 11, 2007 at 10:25 am

 avatarLook at it more positively Dr Benway, like:

"Within under a century of the end of chinese foot-binding the new athe . .no i can't go on

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25. Comment #87212 by Cartomancer on November 11, 2007 at 1:48 pm

 avatarActually my best mates pass round cartoons of me looking retarded all the time. My brother draws most of them. They're quite good actually...

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26. Comment #87227 by Goldy on November 11, 2007 at 2:33 pm

New Athiesm? Bugger, hate change, nothing wrong with orthodox athiesm... ;-)
Have a feeling footbinding took a wee while to stop. I have read the Qings were against it and after their fall the impetus against binding grew.
The cartoon is just a cartoon. Reminds me of Tom Sharpe's Wilt novel covers :-) Guess the gay-ness is a play on the Out campaign (me quick, eh!).

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27. Comment #87238 by steve99 on November 11, 2007 at 2:49 pm

 avatar
If it wasn't for the out'n'proud sign I'm not sure I'd be convinced this was really an anti-gay anti-dawkins cartoon though.


Sorry to go on about this, but I really feel that this an anti-Dawkins cartoon because the artist feels that it is acceptable to mock the out'n'proud campaign by comparing it to the gay 'out' campaign, as if that compaign was somehow funny.

I am actually pretty astonished by the lack of upset on this site. Do people think that the portrayal of Dawkins in the persona of a campaigning but comic camp gay man is acceptable? Are gay people funny? Is it acceptable to portray gay people as conforming to an effeminate stereotype? Should one laugh at that stereotype? We live in societies where many religious people consider gay people not a figure of fun, but evil.

I find this cartoon deeply offensive.

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28. Comment #87275 by jeepyjay on November 11, 2007 at 4:11 pm

 avatarFor those debating whether the cartoon depicts a gay Dawkins here is another Rowson cartoon for comparison, depicting a gay Cameron (the current conservative leader for our US friends)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/martinrowson/0,,1889163,00.html

The cartoon Dawkins has the same rosy cheeks, but not the Wildean collar. Sandal-wearing was introduced to the UK by Edward Carpenter who was an early socialist and homosexual campaigner.

Personally I find most of Rowson's cartoons offensive (and most of Steve Bell's and Gerald Scarfe's) but that's probably because I'm an old fogey.

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29. Comment #87298 by Dr Benway on November 11, 2007 at 5:38 pm

 avatar
Are gay people funny?
He's not queer. He's happy.

I don't bat an eye when a public figure is lampooned in the press. If this cartoon were in the Guardian, the New York Times, etc., I'd hardly notice it.

But it's in an atheist publication. What the fuck is up with that? Why are our friends so pissed off?

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30. Comment #87309 by Cartomancer on November 11, 2007 at 7:10 pm

 avatarWell, it looks like we'll have to disagree on the impact of and intent behind this cartoon. Short of asking the artist himself I don't see how we're going to resolve the issue.

At least I'm not the only one who takes it for a swipe at Dawkins's exaggerated sense of wonder.

Actually, yes, I do think that it is acceptable to mock the atheist OUT campaign by comparing it to the gay rights movement, but not for the reasons you describe. There is nothing funny about the aims of the gay rights movement at all, but that's not the point. The humour here comes from flagging up a false analogy and hinting at its absurd consequences. Atheists are NOT a persecuted minority in England. We never really have been. We don't lack for basic human rights. Atheism is not something English people have ever been ashamed to display. It has never been illegal to be a practising atheist. There is no disparity in the atheist age of consent. Atheists are allowed to get married and adopt children. Atheists are protected against discrimination by legislation. The idea that, in this country, we have anything like the grievances that the gay rights movement had is so palpably absurd that it IS a source of humour. I repeat that New Humanist is a British magazine with a largely British readership - perhaps the struggle is a lot more similar in the states.

In this sense the cartoon could be seen as actually confirming the validity and importance of the gay rights movement - by pointing out that it did have real social ills to contend with while Dawkins's OUT campaign does not, at least not over here.

I also think that we should laugh at the camp gay stereotype, because that's just what it is - a stereotype, and a somewhat outdated one. We all know what the stereotypes are, racial or otherwise - Chinese people are hard working and inscrutable, the French are arrogant, spineless and stink of garlic, the Jews and the Scots are tightfisted, gays are camp, promiscuous and obsessed with frivolities. Just because we recognise that these stereotypes exist does not mean we buy into them. Their very outdatedness can be a source of amusement, and they are all exaggerated comic characters anyway. Laughing at something is a powerful way of showing how ridiculous it is - that's precisely why so many gay people in the seventies and eighties took the stereotype to heart and parodied it mercilessly. Isn't it rather hypocritical saying that we can do this but others outside the club are denied that opportunity? Seems precisely what the religious are objecting to when they claim special privileges against us mocking their beliefs. Haven't we reached the stage where the validity of homosexuality can stand on its own merits and the gay community no longer need fear humour as damaging to its stability?

Maybe we have, maybe we haven't. It seems that Steve99 and I disagree on the state of acceptance in England at the moment, and hence on whether the gay community has the confidence to embrace mocking humour from without as well as from within. Perhaps it is a generational thing - I am certainly very encouraged by the confident, unfazed and shamelessly self-parodying attitudes of my gay students and see in them a security about their sexuality that I could never claim for myself (and I'm only 24!). Maybe it's a regional thing - my haunts of Oxford, Surrey and Somerset are all fairly middle class areas, perhaps it's different in the dilapidated inner cities of the freezing north. I honestly don't know the answer to that one.

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31. Comment #87385 by irate_atheist on November 12, 2007 at 2:28 am

 avatarDear Mr. Norman,

Bullshit is bullshit. Don't defend it.

Yours sincerely,

Irate Atheist

P.S May I strongly recommend that you don't take the piss out of Dawkins, Hitchens et al. They are part of the thin red line defending humanity from collective insanity. Not to mention the homophobic undertones in that indefensible cartoon.

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32. Comment #87471 by Cartomancer on November 12, 2007 at 7:58 am

 avatarI also note the parallels with the Danish Mohammed cartoons fiasco. Quite ironic given that, in the very same November / December issue of New Humanist to which that cartoon forms the cover, there is an article by Tzvetan Todorov about this vile event.

I think it a sign of our cultural maturity and civility that we can laugh along with such things, while our bearded, Koran-toting opposite numbers call for violence and hatred.

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33. Comment #87490 by jeepyjay on November 12, 2007 at 9:07 am

 avatarCartomancer wrote: "Atheists are NOT a persecuted minority in England. We never really have been. We don't lack for basic human rights. Atheism is not something English people have ever been ashamed to display. It has never been illegal to be a practising atheist."

In 1842 the founder of Secularism, G. J. Holyoake, was imprisoned for blasphemy.

http://www.leicestersecularsociety.org.uk/holyoake.htm

There is still a blasphemy law on the statute books, though it is now little used. It is because of the campaigns of such people as Holyoake that we are freer now to express atheistic views than was ever possible in the past. But there is still a bias against atheism in education and in public life. You only have to look at the government's recent "Faith in the System" publication

http://www.humanism.org.uk/site/cms/newsarticleview.asp?article=2391

to see how it could easily get far worse.

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34. Comment #87686 by Cartomancer on November 12, 2007 at 8:59 pm

 avatarWell, okay, yes maybe I did exaggerate a tiny bit. But my point still stands - in England the two movements are in no way on a comparable scale, certainly not these days.

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35. Comment #87689 by Mr. Grape on November 12, 2007 at 9:20 pm

Comment #86986 by Cartomancer

I'm glad you live in the UK where it's tolerated. I, however, live in a place where gays are beaten to death on fences and atheists are bullied into silent submission. To me it's about as tasteful a "satire" as a 1930s caricature of blacks.

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36. Comment #87797 by Cartomancer on November 13, 2007 at 6:57 am

 avatarAnd I sympathise with you, Mr.Grape, for living in such a horrible place. Does this mean, however, that British satirists producing cartoons for British magazines read by a British audience should take into account the prejudices of the narrow-minded bigots in your part of the world? Do the satirists of your country ignore the sensibilities of their own constituency and produce cartoons fully in line with British standards of humour? Or islamic standards of humour?

Surely it should be encouraging to one who lives in such a place to note that it is not that bad everywhere, that places exist where these issues are fringe issues of little political importance, and can be treated humourously?

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37. Comment #87801 by steve99 on November 13, 2007 at 7:19 am

 avatar
Does this mean, however, that British satirists producing cartoons for British magazines read by a British audience should take into account the prejudices of the narrow-minded bigots in your part of the world?


I don't think that is the issue at all. It is a simple matter of respect. Should we laugh at people because of in-born characteristics? Is it funny if someone is female? If they are short? If they are black? Of course it isn't. Then gayness should not, of itself be considered an acceptable way to mock someone. This cartoon is bad because it uses offsensive playground-level humour: "Look - Dawkins is funny cos he is like a gay".

Surely it should be encouraging to one who lives in such a place to note that it is not that bad everywhere, that places exist where these issues are fringe issues of little political importance, and can be treated humourously?


It isn't a fringe issue. The established church in the UK is working to actively restrict my rights. Respected clerics in other faiths (Judaism, Catholocism, Islam) consider my lifestyle sinful, and say so in public, encouraging prejudice. We have members of smaller Churches (such as Wee Flea) coming on this site and asking why we think homosexuality is different from child molestation.

My rights as a gay man have increased beyond anything I imagined in my lifetime. But it has frequently been against the campaigns of the religious - the supposedly 'mild' religious groups
we are supposed to ally with, acording to this article. The cartoon suggests that it is more than just the religious who need to consider their views.

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38. Comment #87834 by Cartomancer on November 13, 2007 at 10:00 am

 avatarWell, Steve99, were it the case that the cartoon conveys that message "Dawkins is funny because he looks like a gay" then yes, it probably would be mildly distasteful. I don't think it does however, as I have explained above. I think the allusion to the gay rights movement has nothing to do with the dopey, wide-eyed arm-waving image of Dawkins (the bluebirds are hardly a gay trope are they? The sandals? If a gay stereotype was what he wanted to convey then he could have done a whole lot more than that. Why is Hitchens not done up in leather fetish gear or some such if that really was the intent? Are they trying to slur Dawkins but not Hitchens with this? The whole thing seems like an absurd proposition to me). Once we correctly attribute the mannerisms of the Dawkins simulacrum to enthusiastic innocence and wonder, the percieved problem disappears. What we have then is a comment on the nature of an atheist political-cultural movement rather than some kind of homophobic slur.

And we must differentiate between homosexuality, which is largely an inborn characteristic, and the flamboyant, frivolous, camp trappings of modern "gay culture", such that it is. To ridicule one is most certainly not to ridicule the other. I have very little time for the latter myself - I find almost every aspect of modern gay culture to be vacuous and shallow, and will not hesitate to say so. This does not mean that I would deny the fundamental rights of my fellow homosexuals however, including their right to express themselves in this manner, but the right to self-expression carries with it the implicit duty to bear reasonable criticisms of that self-expression.

Maybe some people really cannot tell the difference between the ridiculous stereotypes and real gay people. Maybe they do think we're all like that. Maybe the flamboyant public image we sometimes present of ourselves doesn't help to dispel this misconception, but it is almost always those who do not actually know an openly gay person very well who hold such opinions. As you say yourself, the zeitgeist has changed dramatically in this country. We are no longer an oppressed minority - we have a powerful public presence and, substantially, all the same rights as heterosexual people. The only people who still try to do us down in Britain are elderly conservatives, the religious, and those few ignorant, uneducated people who do not know better. These people do not have much sway in our society. Certainly not enough to reverse the gains we have made. They should be watched of course, that's only sensible, but there is little point denying them ammunition when they haven't got any guns to fire it with and couldn't hit the wide side of a barn door anyway. I'm sorry, but compared with the major problems facing Britain at the moment - the NHS, education, transport, the environment, getting out of that godawful war in Iraq - gay rights is now a fringe issue. Don't get me wrong, it is still worth pushing through for the last pieces of the puzzle (I would be the first to stand up and say that it is unacceptable calling heterosexual marriage "marriage" and gay marriage "civil partnership"), but the need is nowhere near as pressing as it once was.

As long as we still wear the, perhaps once necessary, kid gloves and take offense at anything even remotely parodic all we are doing is giving out the message that we are still frightened and do not have the confidence to laugh it off. I am not saying this was always the best policy, but I certainly believe that it is now. I cannot speak for other nations, but it seems to me that the British sense of humour has always had a strong element of mutual self-deprecation in it. There is an unspoken agreement that if I laugh at myself then I have the right to laugh at you too - nobody gets arrogant ideas of unwarranted self-importance and we're all happy. It is something of an honour to be the butt of a well-crafted joke, which is why certain enthusiastic politicians sometimes even send in their own material to satirical shows. There is little worse for a public figure over here than to be seen as dour, humourless and unwilling to put aside their pompous pretensions, or worse to actually speak out with wounded pride against those who try to mock them. It works with minority communities too, which is part of the reason why everyone is so suspicious of the Muslims but perfectly willing to accept the mainstream Jews.

As for religious antipathy toward gay people, that will always happen to some degree. As Hitchens says, the bacilli are always there, waiting to flare up again. The way to fight actual persecution is to show up how morally bankrupt the claims of the religious are, to show that religious figures do not and should not have any additional authority in the moral conversation whatsoever. In fact, since they are demonstrably deluded in their perception of reality and morality, they should have much less authority than everyone else.

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39. Comment #88001 by SpeakerToAnimals2 on November 14, 2007 at 4:24 am

I have to admit, I can't quite see the gay link in the cartoon -- more a sandal-wearing hippy look at the pretty birds type thing rather than an effeminate gay man is what it says to me.

But then maybe us dykes have a slightly different perspective than gay men.

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40. Comment #88002 by Russell Blackford on November 14, 2007 at 5:01 am

I can't see it, either.

I doubt that many straight blokes would feel that they've been invited to laugh at Dawkins and Hitchens for being gay. The Dawkins figure looks like a star-struck hippie and the Hitchens figure looks like a stereotypical trade union thug at a demo.

The only reference to gay issues is the "Out 'n' proud sign" that Hitchens is carrying, but that reflects the OUT campaign. If anything, the juxtaposition seems to suggest an incongruity in a big, boofy, thuggish-looking union standover man carrying such a sign, or the incongruity of a movement with overtly heterosexual brawlers like Hitch at the forefront adopting language that echoes the gay rights movement. It might be interpreted as a dig at atheists for thinking that their situations is at all analogous to that of gays.

Maybe steve99 is correct in everything he says, but I suspect that the lack of anger over the image comes from the fact that most of us just don't "read" it as homophobic. That interpretation would simply never have occurred to me. If anything, it is anti-hippie and anti-union, as it seems to invoke demeaning stereotypes of hippies and trade union officials.

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41. Comment #88004 by steve99 on November 14, 2007 at 5:08 am

 avatar
I think the allusion to the gay rights movement has nothing to do with the dopey, wide-eyed arm-waving image of Dawkins (the bluebirds are hardly a gay trope are they?


I think it does.

The only people who still try to do us down in Britain are elderly conservatives, the religious, and those few ignorant, uneducated people who do not know better. These people do not have much sway in our society. Certainly not enough to reverse the gains we have made.


I believe they do. We are talking about an established church, with bishops in the House of Lords, we are talking about politicians like Ruth Kelly being a member of Opus Dei.

Maybe some people really cannot tell the difference between the ridiculous stereotypes and real gay people. Maybe they do think we're all like that. Maybe the flamboyant public image we sometimes present of ourselves doesn't help to dispel this misconception,


I don't think we should be in the least ashamed about flamboyant public images.

As long as we still wear the, perhaps once necessary, kid gloves and take offense at anything even remotely parodic all we are doing is giving out the message that we are still frightened and do not have the confidence to laugh it off.


It is not a matter of fear, it is accepting that we are equal. That we are not merely 'tolerated', but fully accepted as part of society.

Do you think a parody of Dawkins that tried him look amusing by portraying him a black would be acceptable?

I have to admit, I can't quite see the gay link in the cartoon -- more a sandal-wearing hippy look at the pretty birds type thing rather than an effeminate gay man is what it says to me.


Just look at those limp wrists :)

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42. Comment #88005 by steve99 on November 14, 2007 at 5:31 am

 avatar
That interpretation would simply never have occurred to me.


Fair enough, but no matter how I look at it I just can't not see that interpretation. An 'Out and Proud' sign, compared with that just SO camp portrayal of Dawkins.... it seems so explicit to me... but there you go.

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43. Comment #88007 by Peacebeuponme on November 14, 2007 at 5:39 am

There's absolutely no way in my mind that it could be taken any other way!

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44. Comment #88010 by keith on November 14, 2007 at 6:12 am

 avatarFor me there's no question that Richard Dawkins is supposed to look gay in this cartoon. I can't believe that anyone wouldn't see it like that. The gay stance and the Out 'n' Proud banner would just be too much of a coincidence. Nobody can tell me that the cartoonist would be surprised if someone were to draw his attention to this possible interpretation: "Christ, I'm so-o-o sorry. It had just never occurred to me that it might be taken that way!"

I think if I were gay I would probably feel exactly as Steve does: Surely we are intended to laugh at the Dawkins figure, and why? Because he looks gay and gays are funny, aren't they?

I also agree with Dr. Benway that it's odd that our so-called allies are producing this kind of stuff which ridicules both Richard Dawkins and gays equally. I mean, who needs friends when you've got enemies like these? For us even to find it odd that Humanists are creating such drawings must mean that it is saying something negative to us; the degree to which it mocks Richard Dawkins is of necessity precisely the degree to which it mocks being gay.

Having said all this, however much I try and however much solidarity I feel for the gay movement, I personally just can't whip myself into enough of a passion to feel offended by this cartoon. Maybe you either have to be gay, have a very strong sense of empathy for the feelings of others or be Richard Dawkins himself to do so. But since he isn't anti-gay, why should he mind being depicted as one? So scratch his name from the list...Or on second thoughts, maybe put him with the empathisers.

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45. Comment #88014 by Bonzai on November 14, 2007 at 6:35 am

I know I am supposed to be offended but I just can't work myself up.

I am gay, may be steve would straighten me out (pun intended)

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46. Comment #88016 by steve99 on November 14, 2007 at 6:44 am

 avatar
But since he isn't anti-gay, why should he mind being depicted as one?


I am sure he would not. But that isn't the point. I think it is offensive when stereotypes are used in this way.

I have a theory (which I am happy for people to knock down if they think it is ridiculous), which is that stereotyping gay men as effeminate is a defense mechanism. It allows them to be labelled as 'other', so that they can be put at a distance. It allows those who might otherwise question their sexuality to say "I need not worry - I am not like that". Of course, many gay men are effeminate. Many aren't though, and that is just so troubling for some.

Anyway, I am not really, really outraged. Just surprised that in 2007 a cartoonist could be so naive and silly, in what is supposedly a rationalist publication.

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47. Comment #88018 by Bonzai on November 14, 2007 at 6:53 am

Russell Blackford wrote,

but I suspect that the lack of anger over the image comes from the fact that most of us just don't "read" it as homophobic. That interpretation would simply never have occurred to me. If anything, it is anti-hippie and anti-union, as it seems to invoke demeaning stereotypes of hippies and trade union officials.


C'mon now Russell. I don't necessarily see it as homophobic but it is pretty clear it isn't about hippies and the Teamsters.

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48. Comment #88020 by Peacebeuponme on November 14, 2007 at 7:04 am

Anyway, I am not really, really outraged. Just surprised that in 2007 a cartoonist could be so naive and silly, in what is supposedly a rationalist publication.
Your reaction seems pitched at about the right level. You are offended and said so. And in doing so, pointed out that stereotyping and prejudice still exist and needs countering. No need to march on Parliament with a placard screaming "Behead those who insult gays". Energies are best saved for bigger fights.

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49. Comment #88022 by SpeakerToAnimals2 on November 14, 2007 at 7:11 am

Just look at those limp wrists :)


Except they're the wrong way round -- not approved John Inman style at all!

Even if it was some stereotypical gay figure, is that itself offensive? If it was a gay man being mocked for being gay itself, that would be different. If it is RD being mocked for hijacking phrases more closely associated with the gay rights movement, the link being made using a gay sterotype, is that necessarily offensive?

And even if it is offensive, do we have a right not to be offended?

Lets face it, there's a difference between saying that the OUT thing is stupid, that the gay rights movement was daft, or that gay people should be beaten up in parks by thugs.

Perhaps part of the path to full acceptance is being insulted just like everyone else!

(Of course, part of my particular problem could be that I'm a fat, shaven-headed butch dyke, so feel quite at home with some sterotypes!)

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50. Comment #88023 by BaronOchs on November 14, 2007 at 7:15 am

 avatarIt is delightful to see how unlikely consensus on a single interpretation is even for a simple cartoon.

Steve99 do you think that any image/text (or whatever) that you or someone else interprets as exploiting a stereotype of a particular group in a negative way should not be published?

That isn't the world I want to live in and I think I can say so without compromising on a commitment to equal rights.

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