










Holy communion
Then there has been the rush of responses. Alastair McGrath's The Dawkins Delusion and John Cornwell's Darwin's Angel have replied to Dawkins in particular, and John Humphrys has followed up his radio interviews of religious leaders with a book, In God We Doubt, which is subtitled Confessions of a Failed Atheist (he can't bring himself to accept religious belief but he thinks it would be nice to be able to do so).
2. Comment #86860 by PrimeNumbers on November 10, 2007 at 10:38 am
3. Comment #86911 by Mr. Grape on November 10, 2007 at 12:24 pm
Not a very flattering cartoon. It's not surprising that somebody who is in defense of religion might subconsciously (or not) approve of their anti-gay stance and find it funny. After what homosexuals have gone through and are still going through, you would think they would be a little more sympathetic being the "true moderates". Maybe we were asking for it by labeling it the out campaign. :/4. Comment #86914 by ericcolumba on November 10, 2007 at 12:35 pm
5. Comment #86917 by ericcolumba on November 10, 2007 at 12:37 pm
6. Comment #86937 by Mango on November 10, 2007 at 1:20 pm
This points to the danger of over-generalising about religion and about religious believers.
7. Comment #86940 by GodlessHeathen on November 10, 2007 at 1:32 pm
8. Comment #86980 by Dr Benway on November 10, 2007 at 8:48 pm
9. Comment #86986 by Cartomancer on November 10, 2007 at 9:05 pm
10. Comment #86991 by ranman55 on November 10, 2007 at 9:22 pm
I view religious faith as a utensil or device used by the faithful to accept emotionally what11. Comment #86993 by Dr Benway on November 10, 2007 at 9:30 pm
I'm not sure there's any real anti-gay bias in the cartoon.My gaydar doesn't work in the UK. Too many false positives. So I'll concede that you Brits might read Dawkins in that cartoon as joyful rather than totally queer.
12. Comment #86997 by Eric Blair on November 10, 2007 at 11:10 pm
It sounds like many here want to win the ultimate battle but none of the battles along the way, if they involve a hint of compromise with even moderate theists.13. Comment #86999 by Fanusi Khiyal on November 10, 2007 at 11:25 pm
Okay, here we go. We keep being told that we atheists are just as bad as the worst religious fanatics - so, dammit let΄s start acting like it! I hereby demand that we march on the "New Humanist" offices with pitchforks and torches and signs saying: "BEAHEAD THOSE WHO INSULT RICHARD DAWKINS!"14. Comment #87006 by DNAtheist on November 11, 2007 at 1:28 am
15. Comment #87009 by Nick Good on November 11, 2007 at 1:42 am
16. Comment #87092 by SilentMike on November 11, 2007 at 6:58 am
From Richard Norman's closing paragraph:but it's actually more complicated than that. Some of our allies against creationism may be deeply prejudiced against gays. Some of the best people working to combat global poverty may be Catholic anti-abortionists. Some of the Muslim allies we need to counter Islamist violence may have deeply sexist attitudes to women. It all demonstrates what a deeply contradictory phenomenon religion is.
17. Comment #87115 by discipline on November 11, 2007 at 8:27 am
While I agree with Sam Harris and Richard that religious moderation fosters an acceptance of "faith" and paves the way for extremism, we have to think practically.18. Comment #87121 by Dr Benway on November 11, 2007 at 8:50 am
Here in the US, we are literally GENERATIONS from the kind of pure scientific rationality espoused by Richard.I agree with you. But I'm afraid we can't wait for reasonable progress at a reasonable pace. Humans are now a geological force upon the planet. They best wise up quickly or game over.
19. Comment #87129 by BaronOchs on November 11, 2007 at 9:21 am
20. Comment #87130 by steve99 on November 11, 2007 at 9:25 am
I see no reason to bother about it myself.
21. Comment #87134 by halucigenia on November 11, 2007 at 9:35 am
Some of our allies against creationism may be deeply prejudiced against gays. Some of the best people working to combat global poverty may be Catholic anti-abortionists. Some of the Muslim allies we need to counter Islamist violence may have deeply sexist attitudes to women. It all demonstrates what a deeply contradictory phenomenon religion is. But we know that. And if religion is so contradictory, that's probably because human beings are a deeply contradictory species.
22. Comment #87136 by Dr Benway on November 11, 2007 at 9:50 am
BaronOchs: I'm not bothered by the cartoon, British newspapers tend to feature crude cartoons of politicians and other people in the public eye.Yeah but the humanists are our pals, our buds, no? S'not the same as the newspapers. How would you feel if your best mates drew a pic of you looking retarded and passed it round?
Chinese footbinding finally dwindled away in about the 1920's.Well that's encouraging, innit?
23. Comment #87141 by BaronOchs on November 11, 2007 at 10:14 am
As I said, try and imagine your reaction if they were poking fun at Dawkins by drawing him as black, or asian...
24. Comment #87144 by BaronOchs on November 11, 2007 at 10:25 am
25. Comment #87212 by Cartomancer on November 11, 2007 at 1:48 pm
26. Comment #87227 by Goldy on November 11, 2007 at 2:33 pm
New Athiesm? Bugger, hate change, nothing wrong with orthodox athiesm... ;-)27. Comment #87238 by steve99 on November 11, 2007 at 2:49 pm
If it wasn't for the out'n'proud sign I'm not sure I'd be convinced this was really an anti-gay anti-dawkins cartoon though.
28. Comment #87275 by jeepyjay on November 11, 2007 at 4:11 pm
For those debating whether the cartoon depicts a gay Dawkins here is another Rowson cartoon for comparison, depicting a gay Cameron (the current conservative leader for our US friends)29. Comment #87298 by Dr Benway on November 11, 2007 at 5:38 pm
Are gay people funny?He's not queer. He's happy.
30. Comment #87309 by Cartomancer on November 11, 2007 at 7:10 pm
31. Comment #87385 by irate_atheist on November 12, 2007 at 2:28 am
32. Comment #87471 by Cartomancer on November 12, 2007 at 7:58 am
33. Comment #87490 by jeepyjay on November 12, 2007 at 9:07 am
Cartomancer wrote: "Atheists are NOT a persecuted minority in England. We never really have been. We don't lack for basic human rights. Atheism is not something English people have ever been ashamed to display. It has never been illegal to be a practising atheist."34. Comment #87686 by Cartomancer on November 12, 2007 at 8:59 pm
35. Comment #87689 by Mr. Grape on November 12, 2007 at 9:20 pm
Comment #86986 by Cartomancer36. Comment #87797 by Cartomancer on November 13, 2007 at 6:57 am
37. Comment #87801 by steve99 on November 13, 2007 at 7:19 am
Does this mean, however, that British satirists producing cartoons for British magazines read by a British audience should take into account the prejudices of the narrow-minded bigots in your part of the world?
Surely it should be encouraging to one who lives in such a place to note that it is not that bad everywhere, that places exist where these issues are fringe issues of little political importance, and can be treated humourously?
38. Comment #87834 by Cartomancer on November 13, 2007 at 10:00 am
39. Comment #88001 by SpeakerToAnimals2 on November 14, 2007 at 4:24 am
I have to admit, I can't quite see the gay link in the cartoon -- more a sandal-wearing hippy look at the pretty birds type thing rather than an effeminate gay man is what it says to me.40. Comment #88002 by Russell Blackford on November 14, 2007 at 5:01 am
I can't see it, either.41. Comment #88004 by steve99 on November 14, 2007 at 5:08 am
I think the allusion to the gay rights movement has nothing to do with the dopey, wide-eyed arm-waving image of Dawkins (the bluebirds are hardly a gay trope are they?
The only people who still try to do us down in Britain are elderly conservatives, the religious, and those few ignorant, uneducated people who do not know better. These people do not have much sway in our society. Certainly not enough to reverse the gains we have made.
Maybe some people really cannot tell the difference between the ridiculous stereotypes and real gay people. Maybe they do think we're all like that. Maybe the flamboyant public image we sometimes present of ourselves doesn't help to dispel this misconception,
As long as we still wear the, perhaps once necessary, kid gloves and take offense at anything even remotely parodic all we are doing is giving out the message that we are still frightened and do not have the confidence to laugh it off.
I have to admit, I can't quite see the gay link in the cartoon -- more a sandal-wearing hippy look at the pretty birds type thing rather than an effeminate gay man is what it says to me.
42. Comment #88005 by steve99 on November 14, 2007 at 5:31 am
That interpretation would simply never have occurred to me.
43. Comment #88007 by Peacebeuponme on November 14, 2007 at 5:39 am
There's absolutely no way in my mind that it could be taken any other way!44. Comment #88010 by keith on November 14, 2007 at 6:12 am
45. Comment #88014 by Bonzai on November 14, 2007 at 6:35 am
I know I am supposed to be offended but I just can't work myself up.46. Comment #88016 by steve99 on November 14, 2007 at 6:44 am
But since he isn't anti-gay, why should he mind being depicted as one?
47. Comment #88018 by Bonzai on November 14, 2007 at 6:53 am
Russell Blackford wrote,but I suspect that the lack of anger over the image comes from the fact that most of us just don't "read" it as homophobic. That interpretation would simply never have occurred to me. If anything, it is anti-hippie and anti-union, as it seems to invoke demeaning stereotypes of hippies and trade union officials.
48. Comment #88020 by Peacebeuponme on November 14, 2007 at 7:04 am
Anyway, I am not really, really outraged. Just surprised that in 2007 a cartoonist could be so naive and silly, in what is supposedly a rationalist publication.Your reaction seems pitched at about the right level. You are offended and said so. And in doing so, pointed out that stereotyping and prejudice still exist and needs countering. No need to march on Parliament with a placard screaming "Behead those who insult gays". Energies are best saved for bigger fights.
49. Comment #88022 by SpeakerToAnimals2 on November 14, 2007 at 7:11 am
Just look at those limp wrists :)
50. Comment #88023 by BaronOchs on November 14, 2007 at 7:15 am
1. Comment #86844 by John Done on November 10, 2007 at 9:40 am
Again, here's the prominent view in the media, even in the humanist media, that religious moderates have it right. The fact of the matter is that faith is the reason why fundamentalists and extremists believe strange and terrible things. And why do moderates and liberals believe not-so-strange things? Faith. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but when it comes to a common cause between two phenomena, isn't a more even-handed approach appropriate? I know that approaching the two kinds of believers themselves shouldn't be so generalized, but when the reason two unnecessary ideas exist is the same, we should say so.Take Sam Harris, for instance. He's already spoken publicly about the dangers of an even-handed approach to religion. And yet this does not keep him from warning people off from religious moderates and categorizing himself in the "destroy religion" crowd. This is because while we identify what keeps religious moderates from extremism, we still acknowledge how it is unnecessary for these people to believe at all and how it makes it all the more difficult for us to deal with fundamentalists.
I still stand by Harris' evaluation that the position of the religious moderates and liberals is the most intellectually absurd; they betray both faith and reason for the sake of their own comfort. But this "I'm an atheist but" shit has to rank pretty high up there as a threat to the success of our heresy. It isn't helping. We will ally ourselves with moderates as we see appropriate for the situation, but we will not stop being honest with ourselves and others, and when people hold stupid ideas that may well provide cover for extremists, we tell them so.
Accepting a godless universe is the easy part; getting others to see this while still having to respect the validity of faith-based ideas is damn near impossible.
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