Can we at least demand 'Secular Communion'?
Here's another provocative article from the New Humanist titled "Holy Communion", a critique of two of the "New Atheists". It has an incredibly offensive illustration to go with it, but the article isn't quite that bad. It's not that good, either.I do everything in my power to warn people against faith itself, not just against so-called 'extremist' faith. The teachings of 'moderate' religion, though not extremist in themselves, are an open invitation to extremism.
Fundamentalist religion is hell-bent on ruining the scientific education of young minds. Non-fundamentalist, 'sensible' religion may not be doing that, but it is making the world safe for fundamentalism by teaching children ... that unquestioning faith is a virtue.
We have problems enough in the world. The threats of climate change, global poverty, war and repression and intolerance can never be countered unless we are prepared to work together on the basis of a shared humanity. Simplistic generalisations about religion don't help. In Dawkins's terminology, that means working with the "moderates" to counter the "extremists", but it's actually more complicated than that. Some of our allies against creationism may be deeply prejudiced against gays. Some of the best people working to combat global poverty may be Catholic anti-abortionists. Some of the Muslim allies we need to counter Islamist violence may have deeply sexist attitudes to women. It all demonstrates what a deeply contradictory phenomenon religion is. But we know that. And if religion is so contradictory, that's probably because human beings are a deeply contradictory species.
2. Comment #86846 by Vendetta on November 10, 2007 at 9:42 am
Norman's line of reasoning...makes this false presupposition that the atheists are incapable of working together with their fellow human beings because they also find fault with their flawed religious beliefs. We can do both! Watch us — where we find common goals, we will work together without a pang of regret; and where we disagree, we will forcefully argue. That's the way our world works. Get used to it.
3. Comment #86853 by Cartomancer on November 10, 2007 at 10:12 am
4. Comment #86859 by maton100 on November 10, 2007 at 10:36 am
5. Comment #86861 by PrimeNumbers on November 10, 2007 at 10:40 am
6. Comment #86867 by Shaker on November 10, 2007 at 10:49 am
7. Comment #86868 by Zakie Chan on November 10, 2007 at 10:52 am
8. Comment #86869 by RoryCalhone on November 10, 2007 at 10:57 am
In Dawkins's terminology, that means working with the "moderates" to counter the "extremists", but it's actually more complicated than that...
...Some of the best people working to combat global poverty may be Catholic anti-abortionists.
9. Comment #86879 by Nusmus on November 10, 2007 at 11:14 am
"I think we all know where a policy of appeasement leads.... "10. Comment #86880 by The author on November 10, 2007 at 11:14 am
11. Comment #86885 by shmooth on November 10, 2007 at 11:18 am
12. Comment #86898 by Cartomancer on November 10, 2007 at 11:51 am
13. Comment #86906 by The author on November 10, 2007 at 12:14 pm
14. Comment #86918 by notsobad on November 10, 2007 at 12:42 pm
15. Comment #86936 by black wolf on November 10, 2007 at 1:18 pm
16. Comment #86942 by pzmyers on November 10, 2007 at 1:36 pm
17. Comment #86947 by The author on November 10, 2007 at 1:53 pm
18. Comment #86953 by Nusmus on November 10, 2007 at 2:01 pm
I might laugh if I didn't think this issue revolves around something that is deadly serious: as we are unable to persuade people into atheism, the world suffers terribly.19. Comment #86958 by Donald on November 10, 2007 at 2:44 pm
Well, that was a surprise.20. Comment #86964 by Pythagoras on November 10, 2007 at 5:33 pm
I enjoy a robust debate, but this is getting silly.21. Comment #86965 by Janus on November 10, 2007 at 5:34 pm
Here's a better idea: work together on common causes without silencing our disagreements.
22. Comment #86968 by anonquick on November 10, 2007 at 6:59 pm
Great article. The Mediocre as well as the Extreme can be a valid target of criticism.23. Comment #86973 by Russell Blackford on November 10, 2007 at 7:19 pm
The trouble is that the world hasn't moved on, and it's not just in the US that it's gone backwards. Look at what has been happening in Europe with irrationalist opposition to new reproductive and genetic technologies. Admittedly, the UK is fairly enlightened on this ... but go and have a look at the new laws in Italy some time. Religious and quasi-religious encroachment on the public sphere is aggressive, confident, well-planned, and influential ... everywhere you look.24. Comment #86974 by darlets on November 10, 2007 at 7:28 pm
For the first time in Australia we have a Secular Party running in the election. One of their policies it to tax churches.25. Comment #86975 by paulwwww on November 10, 2007 at 7:44 pm
All I have to say is thank you for that piece!!! You're a hell of a guy PZ Myers!!! I was agnostic for the first 40 years thanks to my father and for the last 4 plus years step well into the boundaries of atheism. This atheist movement is very very far from its beginnings and I agree so much with the following statement;26. Comment #86977 by Cartomancer on November 10, 2007 at 8:26 pm
27. Comment #86978 by Dr Benway on November 10, 2007 at 8:38 pm
28. Comment #86981 by Cartomancer on November 10, 2007 at 8:48 pm
29. Comment #86985 by Dr Benway on November 10, 2007 at 8:58 pm
30. Comment #86988 by Cartomancer on November 10, 2007 at 9:10 pm
31. Comment #86989 by Dr Benway on November 10, 2007 at 9:19 pm
32. Comment #86990 by Cartomancer on November 10, 2007 at 9:21 pm
33. Comment #86994 by Teratornis on November 10, 2007 at 10:14 pm
I think Nusmus and "the author" need to go sit in a corner with a dunce cap on their heads until they grow a sense of humor.
"Holy Communion" ... has an incredibly offensive illustration to go with it ...
I am confident that if we could magically erase all religion from the Middle East, for example, and turn every Muslim, Jew, and Christian in that region to a rational atheist, they'd still be killing each other. We'd remove some particularly silly obstacles to reconciliation (who'd care about the religious significance of the Dome of the Rock any more?), but there'd still be plenty of historical and political and economic and social causes for war. Religion is a pretext that sharpens boundaries, nothing more.
Norman rebuts Hitchens by arguing against what he calls the "headcount argument", that familiar line where proponents of one side or another tally up the number of historical fatalities or atrocities perpetrated by the other side, and declares victory on the basis of the other's propensity for murder. I agree entirely with Norman on this: it's a bad argument.
34. Comment #86995 by nother person on November 10, 2007 at 10:28 pm
I'm for hoisting the flag of criticism, but not simply for its own sake. I think PZ's article rocks! Norman put forth his best thinking—fair enough—and PZ put forth his, in my opinion, better thinking. Well the guy who goes second always has the advantage (but doesn't always make something of it). The point, for me, is that we kick around all the ideas and the best ones out. Of course, what I think is best may not be what you think is best... but you won't know if you don't hear them all.35. Comment #87008 by Asta Kask on November 11, 2007 at 1:35 am
It's not a particularly offensive cartoon. It's not particularly funny either, but humor is a very difficult thing. But perhaps the atheist movement should start burning churches? :)36. Comment #87015 by steve99 on November 11, 2007 at 2:12 am
It's not a particularly offensive cartoon.
37. Comment #87017 by Vaal on November 11, 2007 at 2:22 am
38. Comment #87026 by Cartomancer on November 11, 2007 at 3:13 am
39. Comment #87029 by steve99 on November 11, 2007 at 3:28 am
To restate my opinion on the original thread where the cartoon is posted, I do not believe that Dawkins is being presented as a gay stereotype, rather his characteristic exhuberance and sense of wonder are being exaggerated.
The overt gay community has for a long time courted controversy and indulged in shameless self-parody.
A bit of mocking him can be taken tongue in cheek and does not affect his credibility in the slightest.
In short, to my jaded, bourgeois eyes at least, the gay community and its various tropes are pretty much mainstream cultural property in Britain these days and thus need no special treatment.
40. Comment #87035 by Northern Bright on November 11, 2007 at 4:13 am
Humanists believe that people can and will continue to find solutions to the world's problems - so that quality of life can be improved for everyone.
41. Comment #87041 by notsobad on November 11, 2007 at 4:59 am
Take one issue like the Catholic Church's stance against the use of condoms to prevent AIDS. There are many religious folks, including many Catholics who are opposed to this.
42. Comment #87097 by VanYoungman on November 11, 2007 at 7:51 am
43. Comment #87138 by Riley on November 11, 2007 at 10:03 am
44. Comment #87180 by Riley on November 11, 2007 at 11:49 am
45. Comment #87279 by notsobad on November 11, 2007 at 4:25 pm
46. Comment #87287 by Riley on November 11, 2007 at 4:55 pm
47. Comment #87425 by mjosef on November 12, 2007 at 4:56 am
Fine and dandy article, PZ. Of course, to see basically my views reiterated by another fellow human is part of its appeal, but it is good to see smart, direct writing, not Harris-like quibbling and intoning. . In the "Rant and Reason" blog of humanist.org, I learned last week that "Humanism" is a "new religion," it is not atheist, and that it derives from the religious department of the University of Chicago. You can look up my earth-shattering exchange with the official Voice of "Francis" the talking AHA figurehead, in the entries "Does Size Matter" and "Atheists Need..." I am an atheist, I concluded, not an Up-With-People Unitarian "humanist", and think the only real alliances are the ones that get you sex. Otherwise, stick to your principles, bite your tongue when necessary, as another poster said, and realize that even squid are better at this than you are.48. Comment #87649 by Teratornis on November 12, 2007 at 5:04 pm
By the way, I'm with PZ on his discomfort with the term "humanist" too. I'd LIKE to be able to sign up as one, and there's so much in what they stand for that I agree with wholeheartedly. But I keep looking at the British Humanist Association's website and its description of what humanists believe, and I can't overcome my sense that it's just too breathy and idealistic for me. It says, for instance,
Humanists believe that people can and will continue to find solutions to the world's problems - so that quality of life can be improved for everyone.
... and I just can't put that much faith in humanity, I'm afraid. There may well be problems that we will never be able to find solutions to and, even if we can and do, the notion that everyone's quality of life will be improved as a result just smacks of the same kind of naivety that so enrages me in its religious form.
49. Comment #87654 by Teratornis on November 12, 2007 at 5:28 pm
1) Religions make claims that can and so should be subjected to scientific inquiry. We should grant no special treatment/respect to the claims made by religion. Specifically the idea of non-overlapping magisteria needs to be quesitioned as it suggests a respect be granted to religion that is not granted to other realms of human discourse. At a minimum we should recognize that religions do not in practice respect the boundaries implied by the principle of non-overlapping magisteria.
50. Comment #87695 by Teratornis on November 12, 2007 at 10:00 pm
Instead of probing the merits or lack of merits of an argument, the fence-sitting public invariably questions (or is directed to question) the motives/interests of the special interest group itself. The fact that an eminently qualified biologist and skilled communicator such as Richard Dawkins was considered a liability as an expert witness in the Dover Pennsylvania "Intelligent Design" court case is an example of the problem that the atheism as an interest group label creates.
1. Comment #86843 by mumbles on November 10, 2007 at 9:39 am
Cut them some slack! They've brought innumerable yummy bibles to starving Africa.
So we're supposed to not call them on their BS?
Other Comments by mumbles