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Tuesday, November 20, 2007 | Science : Genetics | print version Print | Comments

Document Are Scientists Playing God? It Depends on Your Religion

by John Tierney, NY Times

Thanks to Richard Prins for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/20/science/20tier.html

Now that biologists in Oregon have reported using cloning to produce a monkey embryo and extract stem cells, it looks more plausible than before that a human embryo will be cloned and that, some day, a cloned human will be born. But not necessarily on this side of the Pacific.

baby globeAmerican and European researchers have made most of the progress so far in biotechnology. Yet they still face one very large obstacle — God, as defined by some Western religions.

While critics on the right and the left fret about the morality of stem-cell research and genetic engineering, prominent Western scientists have been going to Asia, like the geneticists Nancy Jenkins and Neal Copeland, who left the National Cancer Institute and moved last year to Singapore.

Asia offers researchers new labs, fewer restrictions and a different view of divinity and the afterlife. In South Korea, when Hwang Woo Suk reported creating human embryonic stem cells through cloning, he did not apologize for offending religious taboos. He justified cloning by citing his Buddhist belief in recycling life through reincarnation.

When Dr. Hwang's claim was exposed as a fraud, his research was supported by the head of South Korea's largest Buddhist order, the Rev. Ji Kwan. The monk said research with embryos was in accord with Buddha's precepts and urged Korean scientists not to be guided by Western ethics.

"Asian religions worry less than Western religions that biotechnology is about 'playing God,'" says Cynthia Fox, the author of "Cell of Cells," a book about the global race among stem-cell researchers. "Therapeutic cloning in particular jibes well with the Buddhist and Hindu ideas of reincarnation."

You can see this East-West divide in maps drawn up by Lee M. Silver, a molecular biologist at Princeton. Dr. Silver, who analyzes clashes of spirituality and science in his book "Challenging Nature," has been charting biotechnology policies around the world and trying to make spiritual sense of who's afraid of what.

Most of southern and eastern Asia displays relatively little opposition to either cloned embryonic stem-cell research or genetically modified crops. China, India, Singapore and other countries have enacted laws supporting embryo cloning for medical research (sometimes called therapeutic cloning, as opposed to reproductive cloning intended to recreate an entire human being). Genetically modified crops are grown in China, India and elsewhere.

heartsIn Europe, though, genetically modified crops are taboo. Cloning human embryos for research has been legally supported in England and several other countries, but it is banned in more than a dozen others, including France and Germany.

In North and South America, genetically altered crops are widely used. But embryo cloning for research has been banned in most countries, including Brazil, Canada and Mexico. It has not been banned nationally in the United States, but the research is ineligible for federal financing, and some states have outlawed it.

Dr. Silver explains these patterns by dividing spiritual believers into three broad categories. The first, traditional Christians, predominate in the Western Hemisphere and some European countries. The second, which he calls post-Christians, are concentrated in other European countries and parts of North America, especially along the coasts. The third group are followers of Eastern religions.

"Most people in Hindu and Buddhist countries," Dr. Silver says, "have a root tradition in which there is no single creator God. Instead, there may be no gods or many gods, and there is no master plan for the universe. Instead, spirits are eternal and individual virtue — karma — determines what happens to your spirit in your next life. With some exceptions, this view generally allows the acceptance of both embryo research to support life and genetically modified crops."

By contrast, in the Judeo-Christian tradition, God is the master creator who gives out new souls to each individual human being and gives humans "dominion" over soul-less plants and animals. To traditional Christians who consider an embryo to be a human being with a soul, it is wrong for scientists to use cloning to create human embryos or to destroy embryos in the course of research.

But there is no such taboo against humans' applying cloning and genetic engineering to "lower" animals and plants. As a result, Dr. Silver says, cloned animals and genetically modified crops have not become a source of major controversy for traditional Christians. Post-Christians are more worried about the flora and fauna.

"Many Europeans, as well as leftists in America," Dr. Silver says, "have rejected the traditional Christian God and replaced it with a post-Christian goddess of Mother Nature and a modified Christian eschatology. It isn't a coherent belief system. It might or might not incorporate New Age thinking. But deep down, there's a view that humans shouldn't be tampering with the natural world."

Hence the opposition to genetically modified food.

Because post-Christians do not necessarily share the biblical view of an omnipotent deity with the sole power to create souls, Dr. Silver says, they are less worried about scientists "playing God" in the laboratory with embryos. In places like California, residents have voted not only to allow embryo cloning for research, but also to finance it.

But sometimes the reverence for the natural world extends to embryos, leading to unlikely alliances. When conservative intellectuals like Francis Fukyama campaigned for Congress to ban embryo cloning, some environmental activists like Jeremy Rifkin joined them. A Green Party leader in Germany, Voker Beck, referred to cloned embryonic stem-cell research as "veiled cannibalism."

Of course, many critics of biotechnology do not explicitly use religious dogma to justify their opposition. Countries like the United States, after all, are supposed to be guided by secular constitutions, not sectarian creeds. So opponents of genetically modified foods focus on the possible dangers to ecosystems and human health, and committees of scientists try to resolve the debate by conducting risk analysis.

The outcome hinges more on beliefs than on scientific data. A study finding that genetically modified foods are safe might reassure traditional Christians in Kansas, but it won't stop post-Christians in Stockholm from worrying about "Frankenfood."

Similarly, some leading opponents of embryo research for cloning, like Leon Kass, say they are defending not Judeo-Christian beliefs, but "human dignity." Dr. Kass, former chairman of the President's Council on Bioethics, says the special status of humans described in the Book of Genesis should be heeded not because of the Bible's authority, but because the message reflects a "cosmological truth."

It is not so easy, though, to defend supposedly self-evident truths about human nature that are not evident to a large portion of humanity. Conservatives in the House of Representatives managed to pass a bill banning Americans from going overseas for stem-cell treatments derived through embryo cloning. But the bill didn't pass the Senate.

It is by no means certain that this type of stem-cell research will ever yield treatments for diseases like Parkinson's, but should that happen, it is hard to see how any Congress — or any law — could stop people from seeking cures.

The prospect of cloning children is much more distant, particularly now that researchers are becoming optimistic about obtaining stem cells without using embryos. For now, scientists throughout the world say they do not even want to contemplate reproductive cloning because of the risks to the child. And public-opinion polls do not show much support for it anywhere.

Even if human cloning becomes safe, there may never be much demand for it, because most people will prefer having children the old-fashioned way.

But some people may desperately want a cloned child — perhaps to replace one who died or to provide lifesaving bone marrow for a sibling — and won't be dissuaded, no matter how many Christians or post-Christians try to stop them. To reach this frontier, they may just go east.

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1. Comment #89370 by notsobad on November 20, 2007 at 1:05 pm

 avatar
"Many Europeans, as well as leftists in America," Dr. Silver says, "have rejected the traditional Christian God and replaced it with a post-Christian goddess of Mother Nature and a modified Christian eschatology. It isn't a coherent belief system. It might or might not incorporate New Age thinking. But deep down, there's a view that humans shouldn't be tampering with the natural world."

Hence the opposition to genetically modified food.


This is isn't about "tampering with the natural world" and "a post-Christian goddess of Mother Nature", but about unpredictable consequences of such behaviour. Most people opposed to genetically modified food obviously don't have problems with tampering that has proved to have positive results, such as (certain) medicine and animal breeding, or stem-cell research.

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2. Comment #89386 by eric.malitz on November 20, 2007 at 1:45 pm

This is an area of discourse where religion should be exposed for what it is. Someone stepping into this debate and claiming they have some evidence that humans are somehow 'special' in the natural world or that human embryos have souls (while chimp embryos do not) should be laughed right out of the room.
An understanding of evolution again shows that once someone's religious beliefs are pinned down, they are certainly NOT compatible with evolution.

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3. Comment #89401 by SilentMike on November 20, 2007 at 2:45 pm

Oh how the wheel of history turns.

Look like now it's the white guy's turn to be the primitive. Thank you president Dumdum.

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4. Comment #89405 by David618 on November 20, 2007 at 3:21 pm

Although James Watson may have a number of quotes that he probably wouldn't want people knowing about--especially recently--, he has a number of good ones. My favorite by far is

If scientists don't play God, who will?


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5. Comment #89425 by kraut on November 20, 2007 at 4:59 pm

Similarly, some leading opponents of embryo research for cloning, like Leon Kass, say they are defending not Judeo-Christian beliefs, but "human dignity."

I find this rather ironic. Where does he defend the dignity of the person with parkinsons etc. who could be helped by stem cells?
I have no issue with using aborted embryos for research. You can only have an argument when you believe in a "soul" that somehow can be seperated from the body, and thus an embryo being a "human".
Utter nonsense.

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6. Comment #89427 by 82abhilash on November 20, 2007 at 5:04 pm


Genetically modified crops are grown in China, India and elsewhere.


Actually the article is misleading. At least in India, I know everyone is being very cautious with GM crops, not for religious reasons, but its impact on the food chain. Indian farmers already have bad experiences with chemical pesticides that destroy natural eco-systems.

To the best of my knowledge, only GM cotton was introduced to India and that too in a legal questionable manner. The yields where poor.

Whatever your religious views are, the impact of disrupting the eco-system for commercial ends is something we should all be widely concerned about.

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7. Comment #89429 by Arcturus on November 20, 2007 at 5:17 pm

 avatarAre scientists playing God? No, because there is no such thing.

What a non-sense question ...

One can say that every living thing plays God when it decides what to eat next, it decides what lives and what not. Isn't that what God is supposed to be doing? Doh!

The other problem I see, is with the definition of what is "natural". The way I see it, everything in the Universe is part of Nature, so we are part of Nature. How can a part of Nature do something against Nature? The definition of Nature as being everything but humans and human products, is imposed by the Judeo-Christian mindset and I think is wrong.

I think that the ethical question is whether our actions causes suffering, to other life forms, to future humans, etc. And not whether we intervene in "nature".

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8. Comment #89443 by Bonzai on November 20, 2007 at 6:48 pm

Many people would instinctively feel "yuck" for concepts such as human cloning, designer babies or human animal "hybrids". Religion has nothing to do with it. Perhaps it is an evolutionary mechanism telling us that some boundary is at risk of being crossed. I suggest that this is similar to our visceral disgust towards incest. Religion may help codifying incest as a taboo, but it is not why the taboo exists in the first place.

Now of course a visceral "yuck" is not a rational argument, but it does signal that we should consider the ramifications more seriously.

There is also a social dimension we need to consider. Who would control the technology and to what ends? The deployment of technology is a political and social issue, not a scientific one.

Technology is a double edged sword. While it is irrational to resist new possibilities by exaggerating the down sides, it would be just as naive to see only the potential benefits without being mindful of the possible pitfalls. This is a serious issue that deserves thoughtful debates.

There are good, valid ethical questions one can raise about the potential to remake our own species without having to invoke religious dogmas.
Blind cheer leading for "science" is not a thoughtful response.

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9. Comment #89446 by Russell Blackford on November 20, 2007 at 7:15 pm

Bonzai, the one thing we don't need is even more material from wing-nuts like Leon Kass, trying to rationalise their irrational aversion to cloning. There's already a vast literature of this kind.

What we actually need are more critiques of Kass, etc., in as much detail as possible, showing just how irrational and illiberal their views are. I'm quite proud to have devoted a lot of the past ten years of my life to that, but it's a never-ending struggle, because the forces of unreason are just so powerful in this area ... and they've already succeeded in enacting draconian laws in many jurisdictions, including the jurisdiction where I happen to live.

By the way, it's obvious once you look into it that much of their response is in fact driven by specifically religionist morality. It's not a coincidence that the leading bio-Luddite figures, such as Kass, Margaret Somerville, Francis Fukuyama, Jurgen Habermas, Michael Sandel, etc., etc., are either religious themselves or highly solicitous to religion in a "belief in belief" sort of way.

Some of the people involved are vaguely left-wing, but Kass and Somerville in particular are true representatives of the New Endarkenment. Somerville, of course, is Canada's leading opponent of gay rights (or at least one of them).

Kass has opposed every possible reproductive technology. He is on the record for opposing organ transplants - which, surprise, surprise - he has likened to cannibalism. He dislikes contraception, homosexuality, and many other things (including eating ice cream by licking an ice cream cone in public, which he sees as a non-human, catlike activity).

For Zeus's sake, we are way past rational consideration of these issues. These clowns have long lost the detailed intellectual debate in the bioethics journals, etc., but their views have prevailed in public policy. We should be opposing them fiercely, just as we oppose other irrationalists who want to inflict their miserable "morality" on us.

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10. Comment #89450 by Cartomancer on November 20, 2007 at 7:37 pm

 avatarBonzai. Comment 8,

If the reaction to these things is "instinctive" then why do only some cultures have it and not all cultures? Why do the Asian cultures not feel that cloning is repellent? Why do Americans not feel that modified crops are repellent? Also, how could an instinctive dislike for human cloning have evolved? There is no chance at all of accidental human cloning in the wild (well, okay, as a human clone myself I must technically admit that there is, and if you saw my twin brother then you would probably be anti-cloning too, but you know what I mean), whereas there is a very real and deleterious chance of incest without some instinct to curb it. Designer babies? Human-animal hybrids? Genetically modified crops? These things don't happen in the wild either. How could we have developed an instinct to dislike them?

And a visceral response, if we are being entirely rational and thoughtful, should not dictate what we consider most seriously. Many people, myself included, have a visceral dislike of surgery and exsanguination, but does that mean we should be wary of advances in surgical technology or giving blood? In this case the dislike is all too instinctive - it is a misfiring of the very helpful instinct to avoid getting hurt - but not all dislikes are based in our unconscious faculties, and even those which are can be massively exaggerated by cultural conditioning.

Take fear of social discord for instance. That stems, perhaps, from herd or pack instincts we inherited from our ancestors, but is fear of social discord equally prevalent among humankind? No, it isn't. The Japanese, for example, are culturally much more sensitive to discord and disagreement than most Europeans - partially from their confucian culture which stresses harmony among the orders, partially from religious ideas of hierarchy and social station, perhaps even from the structure of their language if the Worf-Sapir theory is your thing. Whatever the case many Japanese experience far more discomfort at the idea of discord within society than their western counterparts.

Of course we should avoid knee-jerk reactions both for and against the public deployment of scientific discoveries, but understanding where those reactions come from is more than half the battle. I agree with your second point that we should discuss the issues rationally and dispassionately to formulate our policies, but your first point does not contribute to this project: deference to anachronistic human instinct is no better than deference to ingrained cultural prejudice.

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11. Comment #89458 by Cartomancer on November 20, 2007 at 8:14 pm

 avatarAlso, use of the term "Traditional Christians" for those who oppose stem cell research is somewhat misleading. I suppose it's ok to use it in contradistinction to the "Post-Christians" if they're the two groups you're formulating, but the idea that the human embryo or foetus (the distinction is a modern, scientific one) has a soul right from the moment of conception or even beforehand was not the position of the church until quite recently.

Most patristic and medieval discussions of this issue leave it as an unanswered question of physics that is open to doubt. Augustine made quite a fuss of not knowing whether the soul is present from the beginning or arrives once the body is sufficiently able to recieve it. Many medieval commentators took the mosaic law in Exodus 21:22 as evidence that the soul does not arrive for forty days, or even up to six weeks.

The shadowy Honorius Augustodunensis even theorised that if a foetus is killed before this point then the matter of it will be resurrected as part of the mother rather than as a separate human being at the day of Judgement. Anselm suggests that the rational soul (the important bit as far as salvation is concerned) does not take root until after birth even, so there is still a chance to baptize the infant before it has a chance to die unbaptized and avoid punishment in the afterlife.

The main impetus for thinking a soul was present from the beginning was actually not Scripture or the Church Fathers, but Aristotle and the Galenic medical texts translated from the Arabic at Salerno and Cordoba in the twelfth century. Essentially this scientific tradition posited that all growth and augmentation in living bodies is caused by intermediary generated spirits that actualise the powers of the soul in the physical world. Without the presence of a soul, and hence these spirits, the embryo could not grow at all and hence they must be present from the beginning. Of course Aristotle's soul was not quite what the Scriptures had in mind (it was the substantial form of the body and little more), but the concepts merged in time.

So all these right wing Christian "fundamentalists" are actually, in a roundabout way, championing the progress of science over dogma. Twelfth century science it must be admitted, and the results are appalling, but it is an irony that appeals to a mind like mine.

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12. Comment #89495 by Philip1978 on November 21, 2007 at 12:39 am

 avatarGuys and Gals

I am a little confused here, I can understand the cloning of most things like organs or stuff for stem cell research, that makes shed loads of sense to me. What I don't understand is why would someone want to actually create a proper full human clone, what would be the advantages of doing so?

Philip

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13. Comment #89512 by Quetzalcoatl on November 21, 2007 at 1:33 am

 avatarI think (and I may be talking tripe here), but a big concern was that people would grow a fully developed clone simply to harvest its organs. It would never happen, since I think it's actually easier to clone the individual organs. Just an example of people letting stupid fears influence their thinking.

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14. Comment #89585 by annabanana on November 21, 2007 at 7:12 am

 avatar
But some people may desperately want a cloned child — perhaps to replace one who died or to provide lifesaving bone marrow for a sibling


Did no one notice this??!!! If the guy did any amount of research on this subject whatsoever, he would have noted 3 things:

1) It isn't necessary to clone an entire human to harvest the organs or tissue, you can just clone the individual organ.

2) One of the major reasons for wanting to clone the individual organs or tissues is so that the person doesn't have to take immunosuppressant drugs in order to prevent the body from rejecting said organ/tissue. You wouldn't clone a sibbling's DNA, you would clone your own.

3) Scientists have said that they are not into cloning for the sake of creating entire human beings, they are in it to help cure individual diseases which only requires growing individual organs or tissues, as mentioned before.

Really, I can't believe the articles that get published in some of the major publications of the day. No wonder people are so afraid of stem-cell research with morons like this writing these poorly-researched articles.

Edit- As with regards to my 3 points, this hasn't of course been accomplished yet, but is the goal of the research being done...

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15. Comment #89638 by scottbly on November 21, 2007 at 10:14 am

Philip- Some people would consider human cloning for the same reason that they clone cows: desireable genetic traits.

Think if we had another Einstein or Michael Jordan.

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16. Comment #89658 by zbob on November 21, 2007 at 12:00 pm

As someone who has practiced a form of zazen for nearly three years, I agree that the eastern philosophical viewpoint allows for a more monistic view of the material world which provides a more liberal outlook concerning genetic research. While I do not adhere to the speculative theories of reincarnation or karma, I do agree with the philosophy that our sense of "self" is ultimately an illusion. If one looks deeply into their existence, one can determine that humans are not separate entities from the rest of the universe. Our ability to distinguish ourselves from other humans or animals or plants is an evolutionary strategy for self survival. Anyone interested should research the work produced by Dr. Susan Blackmore, the British neuro-psychologist who basically states that the brain creates an illusory self. As a memetic theorist, Dr. Blackmore theorizes that through memetic evolution and biological protection, a selfplex is created which thinks it is conscious and has free will but this is illusory.

Therefore, our burgeoning abilities to manipulate the material world through genetic engineering is perfectly consistent with my "oneness" philosophy and can lead to a better world for all of us. On a personal note, I have a 10 year old son who suffered brain damage at birth due to oxygen deprivation. While the genetic research may never aid him, other people in similar circumstances in our future may benefit from this field of science.

Finally, I agree with Annabanana that the goal at this time by the genetic researchers is to allow for the production of individual organs or tissues. How could anyone have a "moral" problem with that goal?

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17. Comment #89834 by Cartomancer on November 21, 2007 at 9:19 pm

 avatarPhilip1978, comment 12,

What are the advantages of a proper full human clone? Good question. They are terribly expensive to look after. I eventually had mine trained as a ninja assassin bodyguard and cultural envoy to the far east, but it still keeps borrowing money from me at an alarming rate...

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18. Comment #90539 by Spinoza on November 25, 2007 at 1:05 pm

 avatar
"Many Europeans, as well as leftists in America," Dr. Silver says, "have rejected the traditional Christian God and replaced it with a post-Christian goddess of Mother Nature and a modified Christian eschatology. It isn't a coherent belief system. It might or might not incorporate New Age thinking. But deep down, there's a view that humans shouldn't be tampering with the natural world."


Absolutely 100% true!

And it annoys me to no end.

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19. Comment #90630 by Russell Blackford on November 25, 2007 at 11:02 pm

Philip, it depends on what you consider an advantage. RD said somewhere that it would fascinating to watch someone with your nuclear DNA growing up in a different environment. Then there's the classic case of the lesbian couple who want to have a couple of kids who have had genetic contributions solely from them, and not any outsiders. Also, there will be some cases where a heterosexual couple might decide to use it if the man suffers an extreme kind of infertility that can't be dealt with by existing reproductive technologies.

In fact, the people who do it may do so for reasons as varied as the reasons why people have children at all - and don't forget that these are extremely varied.

But the point isn't even that. The essential point is that there is no reason why the individuals concerned should have to justify it to anyone else, or to the state. In the absence of significant, direct, secular harm to others - or at least the clear and present danger of such harm - it's no one else's business and certainly not the state's.

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20. Comment #107547 by the_ultimate_samurai on January 4, 2008 at 6:00 pm

well what you are talking about isnt exactly cloning, its more or less invetro fertilization. it involves two genetic doners mixing, while cloning has only one genetic doner and the resulting offspring is exactly the same as him or her. in fact this is seen in nature and known as "asexual reproduction" and is generaly considered inferior to sexual reproduction (mostly in its ability to evolve and adapt to the environment)

there are real scientific reasons for cloning a person though, but one would question whether its right to bring a person into the world to study them...
but for instance a study of nature vs nurture, take some people who want to have a cloned child just like them. and then see if they grow up to be just like them (personality wise, obviously they will look identical) (though a proper test would probably involve the child not being raised by the doner due to influence from the parent to the growth of the child)
but such a test would probably encrouch on the rights of the child, and would certainly be an issue.
also one could see a reason a person would want to clone a child which would be psychologically...bad for them. if a parent wanted to clone a child they lost, this would be bad both for them and for the child. the expectation of this child to be exactly like the child they lost, their own not coming to terms with the childs loss, the childs eventual knowlege that he was cloned from his brother who died. these are things which are far from healthy. not in a religious sense, in a psychological or social sense.

however cloned bodies have their advantages too, for instance if one could transfer the brain from a peron who is dying to a new body, or encode all the person knows, the content of their brain, into another host, that person could recover from a critical injury or even death. (it is also worth noting that religious people first objected to the lightning rod, claiming lightning was the expression of the wrath of god and that no person has the right to counter this, to which ben franklin replied "god does not mind if we keep out the rain by putting a roof over us, or keep out the cold by wearing clothes, i dont think he minds if we protect our houses by putting up lightning rods" or something to that affect. and it worked. it almost seems you cant fight religion except on their own terms, if someone had said "thats rubbish, god has nothing to do with lightning" or "god doesnt exist" we wouldnt have lightning rods.)

but religion aside, the ability to clone new organs, even limbs, is promising. i recall seeing something like that in ST-TNG (i suspect gene roddenberry was an atheist, the religion content didnt realy come in much til AFTER he died. in fact the most religious people in Star Trek were the most violent, the klingons.) when they cloned a new spine for worf and transplanted it, then there was one of the movies, from the original cast, they went back in time, bones remarked on the savegry of modern medicine, he gave this one guy a pill and it grew his kidney back. the funny thing is, that could very well be what we are seeing, the potential to simply regrow a lost kidney, to replace a broken spine (though i imagine its no so simple to replace a spine, lots of connections...i dont think the issue of rejection was ever the problem, though maybe injecting stem cells into a broken area could regrow nerve endings) maybe even replace a broken body.

if my car tire blows i dont debate about whether i should replace it. nor do i call a priest to try and contact a spirit to replace to tire, i just replace it.
maybe some day we will see the body as such a machine, and when an organ fails...we will just replace it. and so long as that organ isnt the brain (and maybe even after...some day) death may be put off for a long time.
and i think THAT is a goal worth seeking. and it has been sought for centuries, how sad that when the goal the is in sight, and its no longer by the blessing of god, but by the blessing of knowlege that we find it, we would be blocked so profusely.

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21. Comment #131300 by aliencliche on February 22, 2008 at 8:02 am

 avatarFinancial motives trump our instinctive understanding of nature's limits. I think that deep down inside we all realize there should be a limit to technological advances but who are we to stop it, previous generations probably damned new things we've never lived without. However, two wrongs don't make a right and I for one am considering becoming vegetarian after learning the FDA has approved most cloned animals for consumption. Maybe I'm being blindly scared of something I don't understand (like theists!) but we have natural instincts to basic things, why not to more complex things? Instincts or a sixth sense probably came from Evolution just like everything else and my instinct is telling me that there are too many variables with this that can have long-term adverse effects that only time will tell. Why take that chance when there are plenty of proven, healthy alternatives?

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