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Sunday, December 2, 2007 | Reason : Backlash | print version Print | Comments

Document Atheism's Wrong Turn

by The New Republic

Reposted from:
http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=5348120e-dea8-4733-8e56-a055d46299d0

In the penultimate chapter of his best-selling book The God Delusion, biologist and world-renowned atheist Richard Dawkins presents his view of religious education, which he explains by way of an anecdote. Following a lecture in Dublin, he recalls, "I was asked what I thought about the widely publicized cases of sexual abuse by Catholic priests in Ireland. I replied that, horrible as sexual abuse no doubt was, the damage was arguably less than the long-term psychological damage inflicted by bringing the child up Catholic in the first place." Lest his readers misunderstand him, or dismiss this rather shocking statement as mere off-the-cuff hyperbole, Dawkins goes on to clarify his position. "I am persuaded," he explains, "that the phrase 'child abuse' is no exaggeration when used to describe what teachers and priests are doing to children whom they encourage to believe in something like the punishment of unshriven mortal sins in an eternal hell."

Why Dawkins refuses to take this idea to its logical conclusion--to say that raising a child in a religious tradition, like other forms of child abuse, should be considered a crime punishable by the state--is a mystery, for it follows directly from the character of his atheism. And not just his. Over the past four years, several prominent atheists have made similarly inflammatory claims in a series of best-selling books. Philosopher Daniel Dennett shares Dawkins's hostility to religious education, warning ominously in Breaking the Spell that "under the protective umbrellas of personal privacy and religious freedom there are widespread practices in which parents" harm their children by teaching them ignoble lies. In The End of Faith, writer Sam Harris argues that "the very ideal of religious tolerance--born of the notion that every human being should be free to believe whatever he wants about God--is one of the principal forces driving us toward the abyss." And then there is polemicist Christopher Hitchens, whose manifesto God is Not Great culminates in a call for humanity to "escape the gnarled hands which reach out to drag us back to the catacombs and the reeking altars and the guilty pleasures of subjection and abjection ... to know the enemy, and to prepare to fight it."

Journalists have dubbed this combative style of challenging religious belief "the new atheism." To the extent that the appellation is meant to highlight the novelty of virulently anti-religious ideas finding a mass audience in the United States, it is certainly fitting. But, as a description of the style of unbelief itself, it demonstrates a striking lack of historical awareness. That's because "the new atheism" is not particularly new. It belongs to an intellectual genealogy stretching back hundreds of years, to a moment when atheist thought split into two traditions: one primarily concerned with the dispassionate pursuit of truth, the other driven by a visceral contempt for the personal faith of others.


Today's bellicose atheists are part of the second tradition. And it is not surprising that they have found a sizeable audience for their contemporary repackaging of centuries-old ideas. To liberals frightened by the faith-based conservatism of George Bush or the theistic fanaticism of Osama bin Laden--or both--the feisty language of Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, and Hitchens sounds refreshing, apt, and bold. But the intellectual lineage to which these authors belong should in fact give liberals pause. Among other problems, it isn't a liberal tradition at all.
Atheism has been around for a very long time-- presumably as long as belief that gods exist. Beginning with the pre-Socratic philosophers of ancient Greece, thinkers in this tradition looked to natural causes to explain phenomena that their fellow citizens interpreted as the work of divine agents. Socrates himself was portrayed as an atheist in Aristophanes's The Clouds--an accusation that likely contributed to his conviction for the capital crimes of impiety and corrupting the youth of Athens.

Socrates may have been the most celebrated martyr to atheism, but many other philosophers and scientists, before and since, have faced political persecution for their insistence on subjecting religious beliefs to skeptical scrutiny. Anaxagoras, Protagoras, Aristotle, Avicenna, Averroes, Descartes, Spinoza, Rousseau, and Kant are just a few of the writers who faced hostility, some of it violent. Fear of such persecution led many atheists to express their views with a tentativeness quite unlike the bold declarations of today's unbelievers, who write and think in conditions of political freedom.

But the cautious intellectual style of these atheists did not derive entirely from a concern with self-preservation. It also flowed from the self- limiting character of their skepticism. It has always been possible to demolish this or that claim on behalf of piety--to undermine the veracity of evidence presented in favor of the gods. But, as we know from elementary logic, it is impossible to prove a negative: However thoroughly evidence in favor of divine beings is scrutinized and dismissed, an unbeliever can never be certain that divine beings do not exist.

The most thoughtful atheists--let's call them liberal atheists-- have always understood that the impossibility of negative proof is a crack through which the gods, no matter how ruthlessly banished from the human world, forever threaten to return. These atheists--whose ranks include Socrates, Lucretius, Sextus Empiricus, Montaigne, Albert Camus, and Primo Levi--responded to their lack of certitude, to the invariably provisional character of the beliefs by which they oriented their lives, in a supremely philosophical way: with equanimity. Accordingly, they did not go out of their way to act as missionaries for unbelief.


An alternative atheist tradition--one that was more practical and political-- began to emerge in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. Shocked by the senseless bloodshed of Europe's religious civil wars, skeptics started to criticize select beliefs and customs in order to liberalize Western civilization--to make it more moderate and civil, less intolerant and cruel. To be sure, these thinkers--whose ideas formed the backbone of the Enlightenment-- did not seek a godless society. Whatever the personal views of such writers as Locke, Hume, Kant, and the American Constitutional framers, they publicly promoted not atheism but liberal Christianity. This was the case even for most of the French philosophes. Though they were more radical in their religious criticism than their British, German, and American counterparts, Voltaire and his fellow Parisian intellectuals viewed the Catholic Church as their enemy, not God or religion as such.

It was only in the final years of the eighteenth century, in the late, fanatical phases of the French Revolution, that a wholly politicized form of atheism--let's call it ideological atheism--fully emerged. Convinced that the religious toleration guaranteed in the 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen permitted ignorance to thrive in the revolutionary republic, anti- religious crusaders such as Jacques Hebert and Jacques-Claude Bernard sought nothing less than to dechristianize France. To accomplish this goal, these radicals (called Hebertists) encouraged their supporters to ransack and desecrate churches and cathedrals, transforming them through iconoclastic violence into "Temples of Reason."

Though the leaders of the Cult of Reason were eventually guillotined, their brand of atheism lived on in European politics, receiving its greatest theoretical justification in the writings of Auguste Comte, Ludwig Feuerbach, and Karl Marx. Not only were they among the first philosophers in Western history proudly and publicly to denounce belief in God, they also went further, arguing that it was humanity's destiny to shed religious conviction altogether. To resist this revolutionary metamorphosis, they claimed, was an act contrary to reason as well as historical progress.

That the first ideological atheists were found on the far left is historically interesting but theoretically irrelevant; Friedrich Nietzsche, a figure who would become associated with the far right, soon joined them in pronouncing the death of God. What both factions shared, besides a hatred of religion, was an irrepressible loathing for liberalism, which permitted citizens to continue worshipping their gods in peace, protected by state power from persecution. For Europe's ideological atheists, this was an indefensible concession to superstition and prejudice. By the early decades of the twentieth century, their anti-liberal outlook had become a crucial component of communist ideology.

Until recently, neither strand of European atheism played much of a cultural or political role in the United States. Many of the Founding Fathers subscribed to deism--the belief that the universe and its natural laws were created by a God who plays no providential role in human life or history. And they marked a path that American critics of religion would take again and again: denouncing the foolishness of this or that religious institution while simultaneously affirming one of several heterodox forms of religious belief. In nearly all cases, the form of belief--whether deism, Unitarianism, pantheism, or John Dewey's religion of democratic "common faith"--has been perfectly compatible with liberal government.

There have of course been exceptions to this American consensus. On the one hand, a handful of authors have embraced versions of liberal atheism. Pragmatist philosopher Sidney Hook, for example, placed himself firmly in the Socratic tradition in a 1950 essay for Partisan Review. While acknowledging that, "as a set of cognitive beliefs, religious doctrines constitute a speculative hypothesis of an extremely low order of probability," Hook nonetheless conceded that, for many, faith in God served as "a source of innocent joy, a way of overcoming cosmic loneliness." As long as these comforting religious views were "conceived in personal terms" and did not take "authoritarian institutional form," Hook maintained, they should "fall in an area of choice in which rational criticism may be suspended."

Those Americans who have adhered to ideological atheism have naturally taken a much less accommodating view. Some, like Russian-American anarchist Emma Goldman, have imported their strident "negation of gods" directly from European sources. Others, like nineteenth-century intellectual Robert Ingersoll and Planned Parenthood founder Margaret Sanger, did not so much emulate Europeans as end up in a similar position by following through independently on the logic of anti-religious ideas and combining them with a typically American optimism about the morally salutary consequences of scientific progress. And then there was activist Madalyn Murray O'Hair, who leapt to prominence in the 1960s by advocating a uniquely vulgar and hate-filled version of ideological atheism. But in none of these cases has extreme hostility to faith held mainstream appeal. Only now, during the past few years, have books espousing the illiberal form of atheism attracted such widespread interest.

In describing their atheism as illiberal, I do not mean to imply that the new atheists are closet totalitarians. On the contrary, all of them understand themselves to be contributing to the defense of freedom against its most potent enemies, at home and abroad. Yet the fact remains that the atheism of Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, and Hitchens is a brutally intolerant, proselytizing faith, out to rack up conversions. Consider, for example, the sloppiness displayed by all of the authors in discussing their political aims. Do they seek to defend the secular politics favored by the American Constitutional framers? Or do they have the much more radical goal of producing a secular society--a society in which the American people, as a whole and individually, have abandoned religion? The former is a liberal goal, the latter an illiberal one; and it is inexcusable that each book leaves readers guessing which objective its author favors.

Not that there aren't clues. Harris, for instance, seeks nothing less than to "demolish the intellectual and moral pretensions of Christianity." To this end, he would have public schools "announce the death of God" to their students- -a development that would mark the end of the government's theological neutrality and inaugurate a time of outright antagonism toward the religious beliefs of citizens. Anticipating, moreover, that religious liberals might balk at such tactics, Harris asserts that "the religious moderate is nothing more than a failed fundamentalist" whose attachment to tolerance convinces too many in our society to restrain themselves from loudly proclaiming that "the Bible and the Koran both contain mountains of life-destroying gibberish." A similar ire fuels Dennett's and Dawkins's hatred of religious education, as well as Hitchens's wildly excessive denunciations of Mother Teresa. (Hitchens's charges, first lodged in his book The Missionary Position, are repeated in God is Not Great.) Convinced that, as Hitchens puts it in his subtitle, religion poisons everything, today's atheists feel perfectly justified in dispensing with such moral luxuries as tolerance and civility.

Indeed, the tone of today's atheist tracts is so unremittingly hostile that one wonders if their authors really mean it when they express the hope, as Dawkins does in a representative passage, that "religious readers who open [The God Delusion] will be atheists when they put it down." Exactly how will such conversions be accomplished? Rather than seeking common ground with believers as a prelude to posing skeptical questions, today's atheists prefer to skip right to the refutation. They view the patient back and forth of dialogue--the way of Socrates--as a waste of time.

It is with this enmity, this furious certainty, that our ideological atheists lapse most fully into illiberalism. Politically speaking, liberalism takes no position on theological questions. One can be a liberal and a believer (as were Martin Luther King Jr., Reinhold Niebuhr, and countless others in the American past and present) or a liberal and an unbeliever (as were Hook, Richard Rorty, and a significantly smaller number of Americans over the years). This is in part because liberalism is a philosophy of government, not a philosophy of man--or God. But it is also because modern liberalism derives, at its deepest level, from ancient liberalism-- from the classical virtue of liberality, which meant generosity and openness. To be liberal in the classical sense is to accept intellectual variety--and the social complexity that goes with it--as the ineradicable condition of a free society.

It is to accept, in other words, that, although I may settle the question of God to my personal satisfaction, it is highly unlikely that all of my fellow citizens will settle it in the same way--that differences in life experience, social class, intelligence, and the capacity for introspection will invariably prevent a free community from reaching unanimity about the fundamental mysteries of human existence, including God. Liberal atheists accept this situation; ideological atheists do not. That, in the end, is what separates the atheism of Socrates from the atheism of the French Revolution.

Why does it matter that a handful of writers who refuse to accept this basic human reality have recently sold a lot of books? On one level, it obviously doesn't matter very much. The United States remains a very religious nation. While there are small communities of atheists, agnostics, and skeptics in every state, and substantial ones in a few--Washington state leads the country with 25 percent of its residents claiming to worship no God; North Dakota comes in last with 3 percent--there aren't nearly enough unbelievers to leave a significant mark on the nation's culture or politics as a whole.

Still, the rise of the new atheists is cause for concern--not among the targets of their anger, who can rest secure in the knowledge that the ranks of the religious will, here in America, dwarf the ranks of atheists for the foreseeable future; but rather among those for whom the defense of secular liberalism is a high political priority. Of course, many of these secular liberals are probably the same people who propelled Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, and Hitchens onto the best-seller lists by purchasing their books en masse-- people who are worried about the dual threats to secular politics posed by militant Islam and the American religious right. These people are correct to be nervous about the future of secular liberalism, to perceive that it needs passionate, eloquent defenders. The problem is that the rhetoric of Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, and Hitchens will undermine liberalism, not bolster it: Far from shoring up the secular political tradition, their arguments are likely to produce a country poised precariously between opposite forms of illiberalism.

The last thing America needs is a war of attrition between two mutually exclusive, absolute systems of belief. Yet this is precisely what the new atheists appear to crave. The task for the rest of us--committed to neither dogmatic faith nor dogmatic doubt--is to make certain that combatants on both sides of the theological divide fail to get their destructive way. And thereby to ensure that liberalism prevails.


Damon Linker, author of The Theocons, is a senior writing fellow in the Center for Critical Writing at the University of Pennsylvania.

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1. Comment #93167 by dloubet on December 2, 2007 at 11:06 am

Oh, for--

Sigh.

Maybe we need to start up our own minuteman vigilante squad to catch and deport illegal strawmen.

Other Comments by dloubet

2. Comment #93168 by Opti-mystic on December 2, 2007 at 11:06 am

 avatar"They view the patient back and forth of dialogue--the way of Socrates--as a waste of time."

That may be because some of us have found that reason, a cornerstone of useful dialogue, is most often absent in debate with religious apologists.
A dialogue with the 'deaf to reason' is a waste of time. Well mine anyway.

Other Comments by Opti-mystic

3. Comment #93171 by Spinoza on December 2, 2007 at 11:10 am

 avatarYa know, such an article wouldn't bother me in the slightest, if it weren't totally ignorant of the history of religious criticism.

The same irrationality and writing off of criticism has been going on for hundreds of years in academic form.

People need to go back and read the letters that were written and the articles that were published during the Atheism controversy of the late 1700s (in the wake of a revival of Spinozism).

That and the earlier controversies over Spinoza's philosophy when he first wrote it.

See: http://www.bookrags.com/research/atheismusstreit-eoph/

http://www.iep.utm.edu/f/fichtejg.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism_controversy

http://home.earthlink.net/~tneff/let7476.htm#TOP

Etc.

Other Comments by Spinoza

4. Comment #93175 by Serdan on December 2, 2007 at 11:22 am

 avatarYay! Let's ransack some churches! Who's with me?!


Oh, wait...

Other Comments by Serdan

5. Comment #93186 by drive1 on December 2, 2007 at 11:49 am

 avatar
The last thing America needs is a war of attrition between two mutually exclusive, absolute systems of belief. Yet this is precisely what the new atheists appear to crave. The task for the rest of us--committed to neither dogmatic faith nor dogmatic doubt--is to make certain that combatants on both sides of the theological divide fail to get their destructive way. And thereby to ensure that liberalism prevails.

In a way, this is correct. The only force that can disable the fundamentalist religious groups (and the author recognises the danger they pose) is the majority group - liberal religious folk. To date they have a woeful record in this regard. Vociferous arguments from 'strident' atheists appears to be what it takes to rouse them. Bloody well wake up, put your houses in order, and we can all get back to living in peaceful co-existence.

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6. Comment #93214 by SonOfPearl on December 2, 2007 at 12:40 pm

...today's atheists feel perfectly justified in dispensing with such moral luxuries as tolerance and civility.


Tolerance and civility are usually features of rational thinkers and often absent from religious believers BECAUSE of the appalling things their religion pushes them to do.

Religion has NEVER had tolerance or civility...the 'new atheists' are a fine contrast to that.

Other Comments by SonOfPearl

7. Comment #93216 by padster1976 on December 2, 2007 at 12:41 pm

 avatar'the other driven by a visceral contempt for the personal faith of others.'

- Nah. Other faithiests do that!

'Visceral contempt' - read 'presentation of facts and reality'.

Its just another example of what Dawkins described as the self imposed degree of importance and 'untouchability' of a religious belief.

C'mon! Since when should ignorance be protected!?

Other Comments by padster1976

8. Comment #93223 by Janus on December 2, 2007 at 12:51 pm

 avatarMore of the usual nonsense.

My rebuttal:

- Russell's teapot; we're certain that the Judeo-Christian God and the Muslim God and all the other blatantly imaginary deities of human religions don't exist for the same reason you're certain there are no humanoid, green-skinned, two-eyed aliens living on a planet orbiting Alpha Centauri.

- Freedom of belief and of expression does not equal freedom to indoctrinate children. Parents have rights, but so do children.

- Tolerating ridiculous beliefs and abstaining from ridiculing ridiculous beliefs are two different things. No atheist is trying to oppress believers, or to legislate religious belief. We just aren't willing to treat nonsense as if it weren't nonsensical. We give precisely as much respect to religious believers as you give (or should give) to someone who believes he can predict the future by observing the patterns formed by his feces in the toilet bowl: none, because both beliefs are based on faith and nothing else.

- To be dogmatic is to hold unquestioned and unquestionable beliefs, a trademark of religion. It isn't to dismiss the most implausible of ideas until their supporters find evidence.

Other Comments by Janus

9. Comment #93225 by Crono454 on December 2, 2007 at 12:52 pm

I'm sorry that the author of this piece is so excited to find common ground with pure insanity. This is just another upset little god botherer who is upset because someone' broken the taboo of criticizing religion without the kid gloves on.

Other Comments by Crono454

10. Comment #93227 by Gibsnag on December 2, 2007 at 1:01 pm

Tbh I stopped reading after this:

"Philosopher Daniel Dennett shares Dawkins's hostility to religious education"

Clearly a massive mis-representation. Dennet has in fact proposed mandatory religious education for all US children (I would assume similar to what we have in the UK). What he opposes is religious indoctrination which, correct me if I'm wrong, is very different from religious education.

Other Comments by Gibsnag

11. Comment #93234 by Eric Blair on December 2, 2007 at 1:16 pm

I think the responses here bear out Linker's point.

As others have said about Communism and fascism in the past, understanding what one opposes -- and why people accept such principles -- is invaluable in undermining it.

The history of religion, most notably where it is the "established" faith, shows toleration is actually essential to its survival. As a political force, Christian religion in particular has often had to make compromises with certain "dissenters" to keep social peace. This didn't mean it tolerated all dissent, obviously. But it did open a crack in the wall of monolithic intolerance.

As for less self-serving tolerance and civility, read Garry Wills' new book, Head and Heart.

It shows how American religious sects, despite their own intentions and preferences, moved toward greater tolerance of each other (if in fits and starts), culiminating in the intense discussion between faith and reason from which developed the principle of separation of church and state championed by Deists Jefferson and Madison.

EB

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12. Comment #93235 by Acleron on December 2, 2007 at 1:19 pm

Linker appears to equate illiberalism with modern atheism throughout this piece. From this it logically follows that the goal of a secular society is illiberal. As the premise is bullshit so is the conclusion. Perhaps Linker should now enrol in the Center for Critical Thinking, but then that may illiberally infringe on his beliefs.

Other Comments by Acleron

13. Comment #93237 by Janus on December 2, 2007 at 1:26 pm

 avatarI think Linker thinks that liberalism is somehow synonymous with or closely related to postmodernism. He wants harmony, but acknowledging the fact that some people are right and others are wrong would, according to Linker, inevitably lead to war and conflict, therefore anyone who is convinced that certain beliefs are *gasp* false must be a warmonger.

But of course Linker and his ilk only apply this curious standard to religious and spiritual beliefs. Why? Well, because those beliefs are really popular, of course.



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14. Comment #93240 by OhioAtheist on December 2, 2007 at 1:33 pm

 avatar
Yet the fact remains that the atheism of Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, and Hitchens is a brutally intolerant, proselytizing faith, out to rack up conversions.


Proselytizing only in the sense of promoting reason and intellectual maturity, and intolerant only in the sense of disdaining fallacy and delusion.

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15. Comment #93242 by Diacanu on December 2, 2007 at 1:40 pm

 avatarHmm, funny, I define "brutally intolerant", as oh, say, beating Matthew Shepherd to death, or that time some racist jackholes dragged that black dude behind a truck until his head came off.

Claiming that title for some hurt feelings because someone thumbed there nose at your imaginary friend is...I wanna say lip puffed melodramatic sniveling, but even that doesn't quite cover it.
I mean, it covers it in tenor, but not in scope.
Is there a fancier word that sums it up?
I bet the Germans have one.

Other Comments by Diacanu

16. Comment #93244 by Mango on December 2, 2007 at 1:48 pm

 avatarThe author's observation that atheists often fail to seek common ground with a believer before engaging in dialog is something I've noticed as well. Carl Sagan addresses it in "The Demon Haunted World." He writes that believers and non-believers alike are searching for truth, and in that effort our common ground lies.

there aren't nearly enough unbelievers to leave a significant mark on the nation's culture or politics as a whole.


Does the American Jewish lobby influence America's politics? Yes. There are more agnostics/atheists than Jews. QED

Other Comments by Mango

17. Comment #93248 by notsobad on December 2, 2007 at 1:55 pm

 avatarBrutally intolerant??

Did I miss the story in which Dawkins wanted to crucify a person who allowed kids to name their teddy bear Darwin?

Other Comments by notsobad

18. Comment #93249 by Janus on December 2, 2007 at 1:57 pm

 avatarMango:
He writes that believers and non-believers alike are searching for truth, and in that effort our common ground lies.


Then Sagan is wrong. If believers and non-believers have common ground, it's something like a shared desire build a better world (although we sometimes disagree as to what this better world should be). But if you think that believers are searching for truth, you haven't talked to many of them.

I doubt Sagan believed what he said. In all likelihood, it was a subtle taunt aimed at believers to make them think. Or maybe it was just PR bullshit.

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19. Comment #93254 by Mango on December 2, 2007 at 2:12 pm

 avatar
Janus: I doubt Sagan believed what he said.


If you've read "The Demon Haunted World," or at all aware of Dr. Sagan's career, then you know he was keenly interested in opening up people's minds to the wonders of the universe. I have no doubt that he truly wanted atheists and theists to find common ground, even in a sense as vague as truth-seeking. I have spoken to many theists -- every other Tuesday I set up an atheist station at my university's Student Union and talk to them. They do seek truth, and some have an open mind to what I say, others are closed off, apparently content with their revealed "Truth." I can tell you that Dr. Sagan's sage advice does help me communicate -- when I speak to theists with respect and an obvious eagerness to *understand* them they reciprocate and even if they do not abandon their faith they at least become aware that not all atheists are elitist or fire-breathing.

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20. Comment #93265 by gkatheist on December 2, 2007 at 2:40 pm

 avatarUnless I'm completely misreading this article, the author's main idea is that Atheists shouldn't be Atheist because Atheism isn't a liberal idea. Well, my response would be one befitting my generation and sociolect: D'UH!!!! Of course Atheism isn't only a liberal idea. Does he seriously think that Atheism only has to do with American politics? This author really needs to take some time outside the beltway.

Couple other things that bug me in this article, as well. 1) He seems to think that the force in which Dr. Dawkins presents his argument would turn people away from Atheism. As someone who considers himself a recovering theist because of this book, I resent that implication. 2) The author seems to be in the denial stage of grieving: "We don't have to listen to these guys because of all of these things I'm about to say. They're so silly!"

Anyway, I would expect more from the New Republic, but not much.

Other Comments by gkatheist

21. Comment #93274 by Inferno on December 2, 2007 at 2:58 pm

 avatarThe first half of the article is ok. But the second half really fails to make its point clear.

speaking, liberalism takes no position on theological questions.


Fine, then we're illiberal. Does it really matter? Left, right, centre, communist, capitalist..... who cares.

Other Comments by Inferno

22. Comment #93277 by Janus on December 2, 2007 at 3:00 pm

 avatarMango:
If you've read "The Demon Haunted World," or at all aware of Dr. Sagan's career, then you know he was keenly interested in opening up people's minds to the wonders of the universe. I have no doubt that he truly wanted atheists and theists to find common ground, even in a sense as vague as truth-seeking. I have spoken to many theists -- every other Tuesday I set up an atheist station at my university's Student Union and talk to them. They do seek truth, and some have an open mind to what I say, others are closed off, apparently content with their revealed "Truth." I can tell you that Dr. Sagan's sage advice does help me communicate -- when I speak to theists with respect and an obvious eagerness to *understand* them they reciprocate and even if they do not abandon their faith they at least become aware that not all atheists are elitist or fire-breathing.


PR bullshit, as I said. No doubt it's useful PR bullshit. No doubt it helps communicate and opens many doors etc etc etc, but it doesn't make it true. Someone who is content to believe something based on faith and nothing more is not searching for the truth.

The desire to find common ground can lead to dogmatism just as easily as the crudest form of wishful thinking. The danger of this desire is that because we want to find common ground we tend to see common ground where there is none.

Another danger is that if you repeat a lie enough times, even the people who know it's a lie will be convinced it's the truth eventually. Look at Stephen J. Gould's nonoverlapping magisteria, for example. It may have been very useful to make theistic evolutionists believe that science is completely on their side, but now it's infected so many minds that there are even die-hard atheists who believe it.

So I think we have to be very careful with the use of PR phrases, if we use them at all.

Other Comments by Janus

23. Comment #93282 by Mango on December 2, 2007 at 3:13 pm

 avatarWell, Janus, I think I know what you're saying about theists not appearing to really seek truth. Genuine truth-seekers aren't taking leaps-of-faith about the nature of reality. But how I imagine it is that there are two parallel roads heading in the same direction; one is traveled by theists and the other by rationalists. This creates a level playing field, so to speak, to interact as equals. When I speak with a theist my effort is to divert this person from Faith Road onto Rationality Road. If you refuse to create or accept any common ground, it is to your own detriment when (or if ever) you try to productively communicate with a theist.

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24. Comment #93283 by Atticus_of_Amber on December 2, 2007 at 3:19 pm

 avatarI've submitted the following comment to the article thread (I subscribe to TNR). We'll see if the editor approves it (apparently all comments have to be approved before they're posted). Comments welcome:

[quote begins]

Far from being against religious education, Daniel Dennett has called for *compulsory* religious educations (a survey course of all major religions) in all US public schools.

Far from calling all religious education child abuse, Richard Dawkins has said (in the very chapter of "The God Delusion" Linker refers to) that some level of Christian education is essential before anyone can claim to be truly literate in Western societies. It is indoctrination with horror stories about how non-believers and sinners will go to hell, and the labelling of children too young to have made up their own minds, that Dawkins calls child abuse.

Far from calling for government discrimination or persecution of the religious, Sam Harris has made it abundantly clear (in his book "The End of Faith" and in countless essays and speeches since), that what he advocates is *conversational* intolerance. We don't legally ban or discriminate against believers in astrology or UFO abductions and all liberals would oppose such bans as Harris would oppose bans on religious beliefs. But we ridicule UFO believers and astrologers - and rightly so. Harris calls for the same approach to religious belief.

And that's just a sample of the things Linker has wrong in this sloppy, lazy diatribe. Indeed, the astonishing inaccuracies in Mr Linker's article begin, as they mount up, to look less and less like laziness and more and more like bad faith. But if I were to throw that accusation around without further thought and research, I'd be almost as guilty of sloppiness as (on the most charitable view of his conduct here) Linker is here.

But what disturbs me almost as much is the comment above decrying the "New Atheists" (a horrible term they are all more or less uncomfortable with) as focussing on Christianity and ignoring Islam. To read these comments, one would think that Sam Harris did not spend at least half of "The End of Faith" criticising Islam as even more dangerous than Christianity. One would think that Dawkins did not use a picture of the Twin Towers at sunrise with the caption "Imagine No Religion" as a promotional image for his book and documentary. One would think that the commentator has forgotten that other "new Atheist", Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Have we forgotten that Harris is the organiser of a campaign to raise funds for the security or Ayaan Hirsi Ali? That Dawkins has talked about nominating her for the Nobel Peace Prize? That Hitchens has expressed a willingness to stand before her and anyone who would do her harm? Or that Dennett has described her rise to prominence as one of the most hopeful developments in the last five years?

The ignorance and sloppiness of this article and some of the comments to it are more worthy of Fox News than of the New Republic. You should be profoundly ashamed of yourselves.

[/quote ends]

Other Comments by Atticus_of_Amber

25. Comment #93291 by steve99 on December 2, 2007 at 3:35 pm

 avatarExcellent comment, Atticus.

I could hardly believe what I was reading in that article. I mean, honestly: Daniel Dennett - bellicose? I know Hitchens has a reputation, and Dawkins can occasionally show his teeth, but I just can't picture Dennett as ranting and angry.

Other Comments by steve99

26. Comment #93299 by Theocrapcy on December 2, 2007 at 3:52 pm

 avatarWho the heck is this idiot.

"The last thing America needs is a war of attrition between two mutually exclusive, absolute systems of belief."

Atheism is NOT a system of belief, it is a rejection of other's belief in god and the accessories that it comes with. We feel we have to be "militant" because people won;t stop shoving it in our faces and demanding respect for their nonsense.

Another complete rubbish piece, avoiding the core of the matter - the existence, or otherwise, of god.

Other Comments by Theocrapcy

27. Comment #93311 by Duff on December 2, 2007 at 4:23 pm

Poor religionists, suffering from "cosmic loneliness". I want to cry.
I suppose we must cut them some slack because the "difference in life experience, social class, intelligence and the capacity for introspection will prevent a free community from reaching unanimity."
In other words, they are simple, unwashed and lacking intelligence, or to be more kind, wisdom. So what else is new?

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28. Comment #93313 by notsobad on December 2, 2007 at 4:32 pm

 avatar
Yet the fact remains that the atheism of Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, and Hitchens is a brutally intolerant, proselytizing faith

The fact remains?
So ad hominems and straw men are facts now? And "their" atheism is faith?

Other Comments by notsobad

29. Comment #93325 by Santi Tafarella on December 2, 2007 at 5:38 pm

For me, this was the money quote from the author of the New Republic article: "To be liberal in the classical sense is to accept intellectual variety--and the social complexity that goes with it--as the ineradicable condition of a free society." I think it is important for us to keep this in mind. In reading Dawkins, I am with him on virtually every point, until he suggests that parents should not have substantial control over how they raise their children. I think that in this singular area, Dawkins crosses a line from liberalism to illiberalism, and the New Republic author is right to call him out on it. The chance contingencies of being born in a particular place and time (Melborne in 1924; California in 1968 etc.), and the accidents of experience (parents as Buddhists; father who died in Vietnam; exposure to lead at a young age etc.) will all color how one thinks about and responds to the world, and how one wants to raise their children to think about war, religion, and life in general. For the state to step in forcibly, and try to socially engineer the multitude of contingencies that an individual life entails, with the purpose of directing the stream of society to a particular and singular goal, is a step away from freedom that I cannot support. Anytime we start thinking of the state in terms of gardening or cleaning metaphors (as a collective device for weeding out or purifying something from society) we are heading for trouble. Although I'm an atheist, I don't think the world would be a better place if there were no Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, or Christians in the world, anymore than I think it would be a better world if we all just spoke English, and all other languages died out. It is the diversity of narratives in the world that makes life crackle, and gives it nuance. I just think that we are not acknowledging that all languages--whether one speaks "Feminism," "Buddhism," "Freudianism," "Calvinism," or "Dawkinism"--bring interesting ideas and insights to the collective table, and that to wish for the permanent elimination of one or another "language" is not a way for making a better society, but one that is actually intellectually impoverished. Contending languages expose one another's intellectual blind spots, and strengthens a society's collective base of knowledge. I don't look forward to a world free of Baptist churches anymore than I would look forward to a world free of books by Robert Ingersoll and Richard Dawkins. I don't look forward to a world free of neo-conservative Republicans anymore than I look forward to a world free of postmodern pacifist Democrats. My half-ass figurings out about the world don't need to become a universal law that supercedes everybody else's half-ass contingent figurings out. We should want more crazy religions and wild intellectual theories in the world, not fewer. Our longing should be in the direction of freedom and diversity, and an insistence on free, unfettered speech. You should be able to worship Mohammad and raise your kids as Muslims, and you should be able to draw pictures of Mohammad, and mock religion, and teach your kids that religion is bullshit (if you want to). And who would say that the Greek pantheon of gods isn't a cool cultural and literary development in world history, and that the pagan gods don't give us an interesting archetypal language, with insights into the human condition? Likewise, I think that Scientology, Mormonism, Islam, and Christianity gave the world weird languages, but I also think that they can be reflected upon and worked with. I also think that the children born to parents who speak one of these peculiar languages have been given a foil in which to intellectually wrestle with for the rest of their lives. If many people never transcend the religion of their parents, it may be because the language worked for them. It may also be because they were weak or stupid. But whatever the reason, I can't help but paraphrase Blake: "Those whose desires or thoughts are restrained are weak enough to let their desires and thoughts be restrained." People can fight their upbringing if they want to. They aren't entirely helpless, and they don't need the state to jump in and assist them at every turn. Ayann Hersi Ali fought her way clear of her upbringing. And Voltaire fought his way clear. And when I was a teenager I fought my way clear of my fundamentalist Christian beliefs, fearing hell and the loss of family and friends every step of the way. Not everybody has the energy or inclination to fight the bullshit in their lives. A lot of people make peace with their situations, and stay where they are. Let's not pretend that the state can step in and make this part of life easier for everybody. All of life is a struggle against a lot of bullshit, conceptual and otherwise. It's not just a kid born to Amish parents who has to wrestle her way through a maze of illusions about the "real world," it's you and me too, everyday, because we are human and don't see the world whole, but in part, and from a peculiar contingent moment in time and space. Let's not pretend that the state can save us, or kids who are homeschooled, from this part of life, by passing a law that makes everybody sit in on a compulsory comparative religion class, or by making everybody learn more evolution in high school biology classes. Let's try to keep the state more Lockean than Hobbesian. Let's let freedom be first, not state coercion.

Other Comments by Santi Tafarella

30. Comment #93333 by aznxscorpion517 on December 2, 2007 at 6:27 pm

 avatarThis person is another one who thinks Richard said teaching religion to children is child abuse. He's said many times and has mentioned it again and again that he means LABELING children as religious is child abuse.

Other Comments by aznxscorpion517

31. Comment #93348 by jharps on December 2, 2007 at 7:39 pm

Santi:

Seems your return key is not functioning. Or did you mean for us to have to work so hard?

Actually I *do* think it would be better if we all spoke the same language, then we would have a better chance to express the differences in our *thoughts and ideas* without the risk of them being lost in translation.

I also hope that if we come to use a universal language then it will be English, but for no other reason than it is my native language and I'm as lazy as the next person. But if it turns out that the language of the world is Chinese (or even Esperanto) then I'll be signing up for lessons in a flash. Something tells me I'll be pushing up daisies before that happens but I still wish it for our children.

"Let's let freedom be first, not state coercion"

A generally laissez faire attitude? A sort of turn-the-other-cheek policy perhaps?

Other Comments by jharps

32. Comment #93350 by Cartomancer on December 2, 2007 at 7:45 pm

 avatarWow, this must be the biggest piece of "I'm-an-atheist-buttery" I have ever seen. Though whether it's "I'm an atheist but New Republic are going to pay me a lot of money to write something controversial" or "I'm an atheist but I'm also jealous that my books don't sell as well as Dawkins's" I am at a loss to say.

Whatever the case this piece has it all - enough straw men to start an army, so many false dichotomies it hurts, misrepresentation, mis-quotation and such a poor understanding of intellectual history that I seriously suspect he just looked up "list of famous atheists" on Wikipedia and invented the rest to make up the word count.

Above all I smell the unmistakeable whiff of self-righteous procrustean points-scoring. He's set out with the notion that this New Atheism movement is clearly a Very Bad Thing and tried his damnedest to furnish it with a shady, intolerant aetiology as if that proves his point. He shied just clear of the old Hitler and Stalin argument, but only just, and the intention was plain for all to see. I can almost hear the facts creaking and groaning in protest as Linker bends, twists or breaks them up to fit his pre-imagined scheme.

And the way he lingers over the words "Liberal" and "Liberalism" as if they were sacred words of command which encapsulate all that is Good more effectively than the Platonic forms. I can just picture him, prancing about, dressed in his home-made Robes of the High Priest of Liberalism, shouting "Illiberal" at the top of his voice like a fifteenth century inquisitor might shout "Heretic". If it's not "liberal" as he defines liberality then it must be evil and wrong, and probably involves eating kittens or murdering the elderly. I'm all for liberality, but the bizarre false precision with which he uses it - as nothing short of an in-group marker, a transcendent shibboleth to end all shibboleths - I find deeply unpalatable. I guess perhaps "Liberal" is much more of a name to conjure with in the states. We generally prefer things like "Polite" and "Civilized" for our marks of outrage.

Atticus of Amber has said it better than I can, and there is little need for me to repeat the valid criticisms of all the other posters. I will however take issue with the idea that one should have to choose between promoting a secular society and trying to eradicate religion. Both are laudable aims, and the second can only be achieved properly through the framework of the first. In fact it is precisely because Dawkins, Dennett, Hitchens et. al. are so committed to the secular society that they feel free to criticise religion so. Their vehemence is, in all cases, entirely verbal - they are expressing their right to free speech in the hope they can change people's minds. It is absolutely fundamental to free speech that it includes the freedom to criticise, and to take legitimate criticism. That's why democracy works, that's why good ideas come to the top and bad ones get rejected, or at least that's the theory.

Other Comments by Cartomancer

33. Comment #93353 by mmurray on December 2, 2007 at 8:05 pm

 avatarSanti:

Although I'm an atheist, I don't think the world would be a better place if there were no Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, or Christians in the world, anymore than I think it would be a better world if we all just spoke English, and all other languages died out.


You are an atheist but you think the world is enriched by people believing in religion. I don't agree.

People can fight their upbringing if they want to. They aren't entirely helpless, and they don't need the state to jump in and assist them at every turn. Ayann Hersi Ali fought her way clear of her upbringing. And Voltaire fought his way clear. And when I was a teenager I fought my way clear of my fundamentalist Christian beliefs, fearing hell and the loss of family and friends every step of the way.


But not everybody is as strong as Ayann or as you. Sometimes people need help and some of us think that providing that help is the role of the state. Of course this is an old political dispute.

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

34. Comment #93354 by Atticus_of_Amber on December 2, 2007 at 8:14 pm

 avatarGiven that this is going to be in their upcoming print edition, I've submitted by email the following formal letter to the editor:

Sir,

I was disturbed to find so many inaccuracies in Damon Linker's article, "Mindless argument found in godless books" (December 10, 2007).

Far from being against religious education, Daniel Dennett has called for *compulsory* religious educations (a survey course of all major religions) in all US public schools.

Far from calling all religious education child abuse, Richard Dawkins has said (in the very chapter of "The God Delusion" Linker refers to) that some level of Christian education is essential before anyone can claim to be truly literate in Western societies. It is indoctrination with horror stories about how non-believers and sinners will go to hell, and the labelling of children too young to have made up their own minds, that Dawkins calls child abuse.

Far from calling for government discrimination or persecution of the religious, Sam Harris has made it abundantly clear (in his book "The End of Faith" and in countless essays and speeches since), that what he advocates is *conversational* intolerance. We don't legally ban or discriminate against believers in astrology or UFO abductions and all liberals would oppose such bans as Harris would oppose bans on religious beliefs. But we ridicule UFO believers and astrologers - and rightly so. Harris calls for the same approach to religious belief.

And that's just a sample of the things Linker has wrong in this sloppy, lazy diatribe. Indeed, the astonishing inaccuracies in Mr Linker's article begin, as they mount up, to look less and less like laziness and more and more like bad faith. But if I were to throw that accusation around without further thought and research, I'd be almost as guilty of sloppiness as (on the most charitable view of his conduct) Linker is here.

But what disturbs me almost as much are other comments (both online and elsewhere) decrying the "New Atheists" (a horrible term they are all more or less uncomfortable with) as focussing on Christianity and ignoring Islam. To read these comments, one would think that Sam Harris did not spend at least half of "The End of Faith" criticising Islam as even more dangerous than Christianity. One would think that Dawkins did not use a picture of the Twin Towers at sunrise with the caption "Imagine No Religion" as a promotional image for his book and documentary.

And has the New Republic suddenly forgotten that *other* "New Atheist", Ayaan Hirsi Ali – a close friend of Hitchens and Harris and a woman admired by Dawkins and Dennett. Have we forgotten that Harris is the organiser of a campaign to raise funds for her security in the US now that the Netherlands has threatened to stop paying? Have we forgotten that Dawkins has talked about nominating her for the Nobel Peace Prize? That Hitchens has expressed a willingness to stand between her and anyone who would do her harm? Or that Dennett has described her rise to prominence as one of the most hopeful developments in the last five years?

The ignorance and sloppiness of this article and many other diatribes against the "New Atheists" are more worthy of Fox News than of the New Republic. You should be profoundly ashamed of yourselves.


Regards,


Other Comments by Atticus_of_Amber

35. Comment #93355 by gr8hands on December 2, 2007 at 8:21 pm

Linker's article shows the dangers of getting your information from widipedia.

I'm surprised that no one pointed out his error
But, as we know from elementary logic, it is impossible to prove a negative:
It is quite easy for me to prove there are no 16 ton pink elephants in my nostrils. It is quite easy to prove that there are no two even integers that added together will produce an odd integer. The list goes on. Perhaps he forgot, or didn't actually take a course in logic, or took it from a theist who didn't know what he was doing, or wasn't paying attention in logic class.

I would have to say the University of Pennsylvania has lowered its standards. I hope he does not have tenure, but can easily be fired. He is showing he is not qualified to be a teacher.

Other Comments by gr8hands

36. Comment #93358 by JanChan on December 2, 2007 at 9:04 pm

The author seems to have no idea of the writings of Thomas Jefferson yet feels convinced that he can fully comment on the founding fathers. This kind of intellectual laziness sickens me. Jefferson was among the most vocal critics of religion of all time.

Other Comments by JanChan

37. Comment #93373 by Nick Good on December 3, 2007 at 12:03 am

 avatarHave we forgotten that Dawkins has talked about nominating her for the Nobel Peace Prize?
I didn't know this, what has Ayaan Hirsi Ali done to deserve this? The company of 'Mother Teresa', Yasser Arafat, Henry Kissinger, Al Gore - the Michael Moore of climate change, and I shit you not, even Adolf Hitler.

No, being nominated for the Nobel Peace prize is hardly the mark of merit.

Other Comments by Nick Good

38. Comment #93376 by AllanW on December 3, 2007 at 1:16 am

 avatarNice dissection Atticus. Maybe we should send the same letter to the University of Pennsylvania where Linker is part of the Critical Writing faculty; I pity his students. If this is the standard of intellectual rigour he displays in his published material what is happening in his classroom? Shudder.

Other Comments by AllanW

39. Comment #93386 by GordonHide on December 3, 2007 at 3:15 am

Lister: "Why Dawkins refuses to take this idea to its logical conclusion--to say that raising a child in a religious tradition, like other forms of child abuse, should be considered a crime punishable by the state--is a mystery"
That is because Dawkins is not the intolerant historical ignoramus you make him out to be. he knows that the tyranny necessary to bring about such a state of affairs would be worse than the tyranny of gods, who, at least, have the good manners not to exist.

Other Comments by GordonHide

40. Comment #93390 by Vaal on December 3, 2007 at 3:49 am

 avatarIdiot. The usual hackneyed responses to Atheism by an embattled ideology, who have no answers other than snide emotional attacks and gross misrepresentation, bordering on slander.

Atheists just don't believe in God, any Gods, or any supposed supernatural being, without evidence. Is that so hard to understand?

I am sure Atheists have been around since Cave Bear theism. I would like to think that I would have been an Atheist in whatever age I was bought up in. The question I always bring up is "WHY do you need a God to believe in?".

I was bought up in a fiercely protestant environment as a boy in N.Ireland and twigged very early on that Religion was man made. I never felt any divine presence in Church, other than excruciating boredom, and used to wonder who on Earth they were talking to. Our minister was a pathological bully, who enjoyed telling us at every opportunity how we would end up in Hell for eternity if we didn't read the bible. Now, that IS child abuse, but thankfully, most of the youngsters could see it for the absurd nonsense it was.

Other Comments by Vaal

41. Comment #93400 by Barbara on December 3, 2007 at 4:52 am

 avatarThis made me laugh.

From the 4th paragraph:
Atheism has been around for a very long time-- presumably as long as belief that gods exist.

Well, DUH!

Other Comments by Barbara

42. Comment #93401 by Liveliest Crib on December 3, 2007 at 4:54 am

The task for the rest of us--committed to neither dogmatic faith nor dogmatic doubt--is to make certain that combatants on both sides of the theological divide fail to get their destructive way.
Dogmatic doubt? Gee, Goldilocks, which bowl of porridge is just right? Dogmatic neutrality? Dogmatic dissonance, perhaps? Or could it be a world without dogma at all? A government that enforces no dogma? Oh, if only you actually understood the writings you're critiquing.

. . . it is inexcusable that each book leaves readers guessing [what political] objective its author favors.
Yeah, how dare they explain their views of religion and society without telling you their political views? It was like that book I read about nutrition by some holier-than-thou doctor. He told me my beloved bacon cheeseburgers were bad for my heart, but he neglected to tell me whether he wanted them made illegal, or me jailed for eating them. How dare he leave that out?

Other Comments by Liveliest Crib

43. Comment #93408 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 3, 2007 at 5:14 am

 avatar29. Comment #93325 by Santi Tafarella on December 2, 2007 at 5:38 pm

I am with him on virtually every point, until he suggests that parents should not have substantial control over how they raise their children. I think that in this singular area, Dawkins crosses a line from liberalism to illiberalism, and the New Republic author is right to call him out on it.


You seem, to me at least to have missed the point that Dawkins makes. As has the author of the piece.

In ancient Greece and Rome parents were at liberty to murder their children. Yeah really. As laws were eventually passed to prevent this, they were considered incredibly intrusive and an unacceptable abrogation of patriarchial authority. From this remove we can clearly see that even the discussion sorrounding this was absurd and misplaced. I suspect that in time, extreme religious brainwashing will be viewed in a similar light. Indeed, it is already viewed as dangerous nonsense by many in the secular, godless (yet curiously more civilised) EU.

Neither I nor my wife are at liberty to kill my daughter, present her as a "burnt offering", malnourish her, prevent her from attending school, beat her (we live in Sweden), sell her into slavery, chop off bits off her body because it'll "do her good", prevent her from receiving blood transfusions, or any of a zillion other stupid and irresponsible things that parents, through the ages, have done to their children.

I think, and I suspect, so does Dawkins, it perfectly sensible to include the presentation of terrifying lies as absolute truth to children, in that list of prohibitions. Or at the very least to view such behaviour as dangerous and irresponsible.

By all means tell them the benign and harmless things that are psycologically neutral, that may perhaps even be modestly positive.

However, the proven bad stuff needs to stop, and those that tell their children these hideous lies should know that they can, and will, be held accountable. Just as someone who force feeds their child drugs, alcohol or cigarettes would be held accountable.

If an adult wants to suck Jesus' cock till they drop, they can knock themselves out, but children need to be protected.

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

44. Comment #93410 by IanG on December 3, 2007 at 5:25 am

OK. So we know that we believe in a natural world with natural explanations. We don't believe in supernatural beings, causes or effects. We don't claim to know things that we don't know and we recognise that models of the world that include blind, unquestioning belief and obedience are likely to be more dangerous than those encourage free enquiry and evidence.

We kind of like to think that each and every one of those silly faithheads is at least potentially a prisoner to blind faith: they all have the potential to believe in miracles; to think that condoms are a greater evil than HIV/Aids; and to believe that they can look forward to an End of Days when the rest of us will burn in Hell. Potentially they are all really nasty, dangerous people if someone presses the wrong button and it therefore follows that we are right in seeking an End of Faith for all humans, rather than an End of Days. Because God's kind of on our side isn't he? Because we're the good guys.

If Damon Linker is a believer in freedom of enquiry and in people making up their own minds about his charge that there is an illiberal aspect to some atheist argument and rhetoric, I guess all he has to do is to post the weblink to this thread and to invite his readers to read the full contents and then to decide for themselves whether he may have a point.

Other Comments by IanG

45. Comment #93412 by photopedia on December 3, 2007 at 5:34 am

Comment #93408 by briancoughlanworldcitizen.
I agree entirely with your position but you have expressed it so much more clearly than RD. He continually refers to labelling a child which sounds rather benign to me. What he really means (I think) is "extreme religious brainwashing". Inverted commas around your turn of phrase.
I know this is a matter of semantics but I think that it is important, nevertheless.

Other Comments by photopedia

46. Comment #93413 by steve99 on December 3, 2007 at 5:34 am

 avatar
OK. So we know that we believe in a natural world with natural explanations. We don't believe in supernatural beings, causes or effects.


Personally, I find this a bit restrictive. My view is that stuff seems to happen and the principles of science seem to be the best way to investigate. If someone came up with evidence of telepathy or fairies, I would want it investigated. Scientifically.

Other Comments by steve99

47. Comment #93415 by IanG on December 3, 2007 at 5:44 am

My view is that stuff seems to happen and the principles of science seem to be the best way to investigate. If someone came up with evidence of telepathy or fairies, I would want it investigated. Scientifically.

Thank you, steve99, I do agree that the way you put it is a better expression of the underlying issue than were my words. Ditto evidence for the effectiveness of intercessionary prayer.

Other Comments by IanG

48. Comment #93417 by steve99 on December 3, 2007 at 5:51 am

 avatar
Thank you, steve99, I do agree that the way you put it is a better expression of the underlying issue than were my words. Ditto evidence for the effectiveness of intercessionary prayer.


No criticism intended; it is just that if we make too much of the 'natural/supernatural' distinction, the religious can attack us as 'closed minded'. I think a better strategy is just to say 'yeah, whatever, but evidence please' :)

Other Comments by steve99

49. Comment #93422 by IanG on December 3, 2007 at 6:07 am

No offence taken, steve 99, I didn't take it as criticism. Feedback and clarification are what make things tick.

It took me a while to figure out how I wanted to contribute on this particular topic. Part of it is that I feel that we should concentrate most of our efforts on the real lunacies and the real lunatics and not alienate a lot of folks who feel so insulted at being lumped in with people whose views they probably loathe as much as we do, that they decide to see us as not worth listening to.

The real issue, however, is that, whilst religion has its particular dangers, it is ideas themselves that colonise our minds, as with Communism, Fascism etc.

I think Linker is trying to touch on this issue. He is trying, amongst other things, to point out that Atheism is an idea that has colonised a significant number of humans, (including me, as it happens).

There is absolutely no reason to see Atheism as a special exception. This means that one possible hypothetical future is a totalitarian atheist state where people who don't publicly renounce faith are hounded, victimised, their books burned, etc. A state where children report their parents for praying in privacy, or for saying "Good God!"

Such a state might look somewhat like Nazi Germany.

Other Comments by IanG

50. Comment #93423 by black wolf on December 3, 2007 at 6:12 am

 avatarThe issue is more than just about religious brainwashing. I have seen a television program (the one where two families exchange mothers for two weeks or so) where a deeply religious mother abused her children simply by emotional neglect.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbaGQxS9NKo (German)
The only occasions she actually sat down with her children were to pray and to talk about Jesus. She was utterly incapable of discussing the children's problems at school or with friends. All she cared about was waking up, immediately singing a hymn to Jesus, praying. She believed all her children needed were a minimum of clothing and no room decorations whatsoever. The childrens' rooms looked like jail cells. The other mother was trying to talk to her about the childrens' needs and how the Christian mother neglected them, and her reaction was denial. Then she started to sing hymns in high volume to drown out everything she was being told, and simply walked away. She was completely oblivious to the real world, and her children were emotionally suffering. They literally had no mother but a godbot.
This form of child abuse needs to be addressed much more specifically in legislation and practice, as most countries focus only on physical abuse currently.

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