1. Comment #97910 by xale666x on December 12, 2007 at 8:26 pm

'Enlightenment fundamentalist'... 'atheist fundamentalist'... 'secular fundamentalist'... when are these fools going to realize how ridiculous this crap sounds? What's next, reason fundamentalism? Extremist logic/rationality?

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2. Comment #97912 by eric.malitz on December 12, 2007 at 8:33 pm

enlightenment fundamentalist is probably the stupidest term I have ever heard.

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3. Comment #97918 by Gymnopedie on December 12, 2007 at 8:40 pm

Which is why he renounces the term...

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4. Comment #97925 by maton100 on December 12, 2007 at 8:48 pm

The enlightened fundamentalists don't believe in using half of their reasoning skills, they use 100%. Damn fundies.

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5. Comment #97930 by RickM on December 12, 2007 at 8:56 pm

No workee; any other route?

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6. Comment #97938 by Gymnopedie on December 12, 2007 at 9:21 pm

What in the world did Timothy Garton Ash say just before 57:00 mark? He makes a point about censorship and is censored! How ridiculous.

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7. Comment #97940 by Sam Slater on December 12, 2007 at 9:24 pm

It's not working for me I'm afraid.

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8. Comment #97958 by monkey2 on December 12, 2007 at 10:00 pm

I quite like the idea of being an enlightenment fundamentalist but before I sign up, I would need to know exactly what the fundamentals are.

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9. Comment #97959 by Dr Benway on December 12, 2007 at 10:01 pm

Hehehe. Ayan got the dude to say something fatwa worthy.

She has girl power.

I think, if she wanted, she could have got him to take the gang out for drinks on his own tab.

"Tim darling I hate to trouble you, but could you do me a huge favor and run to the corner store and get me a box of tampons?"

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10. Comment #97962 by IPV4 on December 12, 2007 at 10:11 pm

I love the way that timothy inaccuratley presumes that beheading apostastes is not in the Koran. What a crock of shit. Do your homework Tim before making outlandish claims less you sound like an islamic apologist.

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11. Comment #97964 by monkey2 on December 12, 2007 at 10:24 pm

I liked AHA's reasons for the rejection of Islamic faith schools. TGA's total agreement was music to my ears. Their pragmatic approach to Christian and Jewish schools lent their views a chance of political acceptance. Rome wasn't built in a day.

I hope TGA wasn't just agreeing because he could hear Barry White singing sweet music in his ears.

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12. Comment #97970 by mintcheerios on December 12, 2007 at 11:03 pm

It looks like we need more enlightenment moderates, the ones who avoid using reason where appropriate.

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13. Comment #97975 by Quine on December 12, 2007 at 11:22 pm

AHA: "no angels whispering"

She just keeps getting better.

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14. Comment #97981 by mejdrich on December 13, 2007 at 12:22 am

I've got to agree with Gymnopedie. The censorship of this clip is really irritating. The producers are saying, in essence, that they disagree with the comments of BOTH debaters.

Otherwise, an interesting debate.

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15. Comment #97984 by PJG on December 13, 2007 at 12:34 am

Yes IPV4

"Remember the Lord inspired the angels (with the message):
'I am with you: give firmness to the believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: Smite ye above their necks [behead them] and smite all their fingertips off them.'"
(Koran 8:12)

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16. Comment #97987 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 13, 2007 at 12:41 am

Very interesting debate, Ayaan Hirsi Ali is such a critical personality.

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17. Comment #97995 by Riz on December 13, 2007 at 1:11 am

Can someone please youtube it - the whole video is choppy and doesn't run for me :(

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18. Comment #98004 by Axulus on December 13, 2007 at 1:33 am

Unbelievable that they censor the part about where Timothy talks about it being OK offend. I think it does however demonstrate the sad state of affairs we are in when someone's voice is censored in the media in a legitimate debate due to being afraid to offend.

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19. Comment #98006 by Axulus on December 13, 2007 at 1:38 am

Where does the ideology that if one is offended, he must defend his honor in any way possible (via violence etc.), come from? I think this is a pervasive problem throughout the Islamic world. Does it come from the religion itself, or is it rooted more so in the culture itself?

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20. Comment #98008 by rod-the-farmer on December 13, 2007 at 1:39 am

Sorry, would like to watch, but the links do not work for me, using Firefox.

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21. Comment #98011 by PJG on December 13, 2007 at 1:42 am

Why was the word "paedophile" censored the first time AHA used it but not the second time? I can only think it is because the first time she "accused" Mohammad of being a paedophile and the second she just said he was one by today's standards. Strange.

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22. Comment #98056 by GodlessHeathen on December 13, 2007 at 3:09 am

I'd love to be able to watch this.

Could we please lean more toward open standards, rather than this closed stuff that only works part of the time?

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23. Comment #98072 by PJG on December 13, 2007 at 3:33 am

Are there any good lip-readers amongst us who could translate the TGA censored bit? :)

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24. Comment #98085 by MilitantAgnostic on December 13, 2007 at 3:57 am

IPV4 / PJG, actually the punishment for apostasy is NOT in the Koran, only in the Hadith. PJG, the wisdom of the Koran that you cite refers only to unbelievers, not apostates.

Other Comments by MilitantAgnostic

25. Comment #98089 by Dr Benway on December 13, 2007 at 4:08 am

I hope TGA wasn't just agreeing because he could hear Barry White singing sweet music in his ears.

Before girl power, there is no Barry White. There are only the wounded and the dying. To paraphrase Timothy Garton Ash's opening, "Seeing that I'm a dead man, might as well fall upon my sword right now."

I'm not upset 'bout the bleep. Getting a fatwa on your ass is like getting AIDS. Just a matter of time.

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26. Comment #98092 by PJG on December 13, 2007 at 4:22 am

Sorry MilitantAtheist, you are right.

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27. Comment #98100 by Rtambree on December 13, 2007 at 4:35 am

23. Comment #98072 by PJG

>Are there any good lip-readers amongst us who could translate the TGA censored bit? :)

Yeah, I was there - TGA simply said the the Prophet Muhammed was an illiterate delusional pedophile or words to that effect.

I guess they censored it in case it incites another Danish-cartoon like outrage and then another security trust fund needs to be set up to protect him for the rest of his life.

Dick Cheney needs to lease out his underground bunker for all these outspoken critics of Muhammed to shelter in. That would save on security costs. Salman Rushdie gets the top bunk as he was first.

Other Comments by Rtambree

28. Comment #98102 by PJG on December 13, 2007 at 4:37 am

Thanks Rtambree.

Oh dear... if any nut reads that, does it mean censoring it on the website will have been a waste of time?


Other Comments by PJG

29. Comment #98105 by Nefrubyr on December 13, 2007 at 4:41 am

24. Comment #98085 by MilitantAgnostic

PJG, the wisdom of the Koran that you cite refers only to unbelievers, not apostates.

Surely apostates are unbelievers - unless the term "unbeliever" is reserved for those who never believed.

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30. Comment #98111 by Rtambree on December 13, 2007 at 4:52 am

28. Comment #98102 by PJG

>Oh dear... if any nut reads that, does it mean censoring it on the website will have been a waste of time?

Worse has been said about the Prophet on this website, and in Christopher Hitchens' book, so I hope it's safe. I don't know why reaction to some comments is extreme and others are ignored.

Other Comments by Rtambree

31. Comment #98112 by Rtambree on December 13, 2007 at 4:55 am

Apostates are defectors, traitors. Much worse than those that never believed, apparently.

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32. Comment #98115 by mejdrich on December 13, 2007 at 5:04 am

Not trying to fight over semantics, but an apostate is also an unbeliever, and the punishment is still apparently beheading.

It's like saying, "no, no, the Koran doesn't say to kill all westerners. That would be barbaric. It says to kill all foreigners."

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33. Comment #98116 by Rtambree on December 13, 2007 at 5:14 am

32. Comment #98115 by mejdrich

>Not trying to fight over semantics

It's best not to try to make sense over all this irrationality. None of the tenants of the Abrahamic religions map well onto a logical framework.

Other Comments by Rtambree

34. Comment #98122 by bollocks on December 13, 2007 at 5:22 am

>Ayaan Hirsi Ali is such a critical personality. <

yoo wot ?

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35. Comment #98125 by Ole on December 13, 2007 at 5:42 am

If you have a wife that is 9 years old - that is a child (or a child-wife if you will).

Here is one (out of several) definitions of Pedophilia:

A disorder in which a person has fantasies, urges or behaviors that involve sexual activity with a pre-pubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).

About Muhammed's marriage:

Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad. She stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine, when the marriage was consummated.

More here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad#Marriages_and_children

What's the fuss with the beep-sound?

Ole

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36. Comment #98129 by gaving on December 13, 2007 at 6:01 am

As has been stated, I'd love to watch this but due to the poor use of this weird, unworkable proprietary format it doesn't look like I'm able to.

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37. Comment #98154 by notsobad on December 13, 2007 at 6:37 am

What was peeped out?

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38. Comment #98155 by PJG on December 13, 2007 at 6:44 am

29. Comment #98105 by Nefrubyr on December 13, 2007 at 4:41 am

24. Comment #98085 by MilitantAgnostic

PJG, the wisdom of the Koran that you cite refers only to unbelievers, not apostates.

Surely apostates are unbelievers - unless the term "unbeliever" is reserved for those who never believed.

That is what I thought too but I do realise that apostasy seems to be seen as a separate "crime" and people who have "had" and rejected are probably seen as worse than those who have not had the chance to see the "truth". It is a bit like the way newly converted Christians were able to rescue those who had gone to Hell before they heard about Jesus but if you'd heard about Jesus and rejected him... you burned!

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39. Comment #98158 by Rtambree on December 13, 2007 at 6:49 am

37. Comment #98154 by notsobad

>What was peeped out?

See post #27.

Other Comments by Rtambree

40. Comment #98159 by ksskidude on December 13, 2007 at 6:50 am

Garton Ash needs a bit of boost. Is it me or does he speak incredibly slow? I understand wanting to articulate your words and also make sure that what you say is understood. But if I were to be a speaking coach for him, I would suggest to speak a little faster, with more voice inflection. Then maybe he would keep attentions, atleast mine.

My two cents...

I think Ayaan is fantastic, and hope she will always be okay!!!



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41. Comment #98177 by Aequitas12345 on December 13, 2007 at 7:58 am

Does anybody know of a working link to this? I can't watch it in IE or Firefox.

Please, for the love of Allah, help me.

Other Comments by Aequitas12345

42. Comment #98180 by Mitchell Gilks on December 13, 2007 at 8:12 am

What a smug bastard that guy was. He was so sure what Ayaana's arguments and points were before she said them that he didn't feel he needed to listen.

He was actually saying that because some muslins don't think killing apostates is ok that therefore islam doesn't. What the hell is that? No matter what people say and do it will not change the texts, unless they physically edit them. It is like saying before christians don't beat their wives and killing disobediant children that there for it isn't in the bible. The old testament, and in many regards the new testament are not compatable with a liberal society either. All becayse christians (for the most part) don't practice all of it's laws and recommendations doesn't there for mean they aren't there.

She clearly said that Muslins were compatable, just not islam, and criticizmed him for confusing the two, yet he ignored her and kept doing it.

He seemed too high on his own sense of self-satisfaction to listen to a word she said. After all, the only reason people listen to her is because she isn't bad to look at, she is obviously a moron. Almost makes me want to open a can of jihad on his smug self-absorbed ass.

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43. Comment #98193 by Jack Rawlinson on December 13, 2007 at 8:35 am

Damn, I can't watch this yet. I have a lot of time for Tim Garton Ash yet I also recognise he has disturbing 'soft liberal' tendencies. Similarly, I admire Hirsi Ali a lot for her brave and uncompromising anti-Islamic stance yet I have some distinct problems with some of her more fiercely right-edged politics so I'm particularly interested in this discussion. I guess I'll have to be patient.

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44. Comment #98194 by Rtambree on December 13, 2007 at 8:43 am

If you're having problems watching it in streaming mode, download HiDownload from Streamingstar - it's a little software utility that allows you to save such media on your hard drive.

Simply copy the URL address from WMP Properties into HiDownload and it'll download - the debate file is about 640mb. They you can watch it smoothly.

http://www.streamingstar.com/hidownload.htm

The video URL address is

http://qstream-wm.qbrick.com/05076/ayaan_hirsi_ali_versus_timothy_garton_ash_071209_webspecial_ESA005.wmv



Other Comments by Rtambree

45. Comment #98211 by Aequitas12345 on December 13, 2007 at 9:16 am

Thank you Rtambree.

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46. Comment #98213 by robotaholic on December 13, 2007 at 9:18 am

Im happy she's free but I'm sick of hearing about islam, iraq, or basically anything middle eastern- overload -but that's just me

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47. Comment #98240 by Aequitas12345 on December 13, 2007 at 10:41 am

I can't believe they bleeped things out. In a discussion regarding Free Speech as one of its central topics?

Does anyone know what was said?

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48. Comment #98451 by keithswan on December 13, 2007 at 3:55 pm

AHA won the argumment before even uttering a word. TGA spent the whole debate trying to flatter Ayaan (emphasising where he agreed with her) thereafter attempting to distinguish the area where he disagreed with her (where his position was feeble in my view) only as a means of preserving his own perceived credibility and vanity. I would have more respect for him if he faced the truth of the fact that he is wrong and she is right. But as an intellectual he seeks to split hairs rather than face that truth: a truth which Ayaan faced up to out of necessity - Islam conflicts with reason, liberalism and freedom.

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49. Comment #98458 by perkyjay on December 13, 2007 at 4:10 pm

The video that I watched carried a closing message that the two protagonists had agreed to edit a short passage from the video. TGA and AHA had both been rendered briefly inaudible.TGA's was longer than AHA'S, but that's because TGA was a lot longer-winded than Ayaan. I had a real problem with him.

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50. Comment #98460 by steve99 on December 13, 2007 at 4:25 pm

What a smug bastard that guy was.

I am not sure that is a fair way to comment about someone who agrees with so much of with Ali says, and clearly has a lot of respect for her.

No matter what people say and do it will not change the texts

Religion is not the just texts, it is what people believe, and how they behave. One of ways we point out the inconsistencies of religion is the way that everyone seems to get to ignore or interpret texts their own way. If we are going to (justifiably) criticise the religious for not following the texts, then we are in no position to point at the texts and complain too much about what is in them. It does matter what people say and do, and the more we can make them say and do things that represent more liberal attitudes, and that are not in the texts, the better.

He seemed too high on his own sense of self-satisfaction to listen to a word she said. After all, the only reason people listen to her is because she isn't bad to look at, she is obviously a moron. Almost makes me want to open a can of jihad on his smug self-absorbed ass.

I really don't think you mean that, do you?

Other Comments by steve99