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Sunday, December 16, 2007 | Reason : Political | print version Print | Comments

Document Do the laws of God trump those of man?

by Globe and Mail

Thanks to Linda Ward Selbie for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071214.wsaundersreck1214/BNStory/International/home

DOUG SAUNDERS
Globe and Mail Update

EDINBURGH — We may never know exactly why 16-year-old Aqsa Parvez was strangled in Msissauga this week. Her father, Muhammad, has been charged with murder, and he is, by all accounts, a very religious man, whereas his daughter didn't want to cover her head in the style favoured by Muslims in his native Pakistan.

Whether her death was a direct result of this theological schism, or of some more prosaic explosion of family rage, is now irrelevant. It has become a story about the limits of tolerance. A national debate has erupted around poor Aqsa, and it is largely a debate about the place of extreme religious belief in a liberal society.

This happens to have been the central topic of a dramatic argument that has inflamed Europe's leading thinkers for much of this year and it would be useful to ship some of its rhetoric across the Atlantic.

A lot of people have been using the words "integration" and "multiculturalism" to discuss the Parvez case. These concepts, I would argue, are somewhat beside the point. Members of the family are, in most important respects, fully integrated and fluent Canadians. And they don't seem to have been stuck in a cultural ghetto; if there really were pressures inside the father's head, they didn't come from the varied and mostly secular people around them.

courtWhat we are really concerned about here is the question of how to deal with those in our midst who are antinomians — that is, people who believe the laws of God should trump the laws of man. Ever since we first built societies out of reason and mutual respect during the Enlightenment, the presence of religious true believers has been a problem. Should renunciation of spiritual authority be a prerequisite for membership in a free society?

Antinomians can be nothing more than charming nuisances, like William Blake, whose poetry was a long manifesto of antinomianism. Or they can be Osama bin Laden.

"What to say," Voltaire asked three centuries ago, "to a man who tells you he prefers to obey God than to obey men, and who is consequently sure of entering the gates of heaven by slitting your throat?"

That quotation opened this year's debate, in January. It was used by French philosopher Pascal Bruckner to launch a long, wild attack on Dutch-American writer Ian Buruma (his essay, and the rest of this debate, can be found on the excellent Berlin website signandsight.com).

Mr. Buruma had just published a fantastic book titled Murder In Amsterdam, in which he returns to his native Holland to explore the slaying, by a Muslim extremist, of filmmaker Theo Van Gogh.

The central figure in his book is Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Dutch activist and MP whose childhood in Africa resembled that of Aqsa Parvez in Mississauga, but who succumbed, embracing fundamentalist Islam, and was horribly abused by men.

Still, she was luckier than Aqsa: She fled, turned her back on the faith and in the end became an impressive and world-famous voice of anti-religious passion.

She occupies a largely heroic position in Mr. Buruma's book, but he notes toward the end that she has undercut her own cause: "Ayaan Hirsi Ali was no Voltaire," he writes of her more extreme provocations. "For Voltaire had flung his insults at the Catholic Church … while Ayaan risked offending only a minority that was already feeling vulnerable in the heart of Europe."

British writer Timothy Garton Ash made the point more strongly a few weeks later: "Ayaan Hirsi Ali is now a brave, outspoken, slightly simplistic Enlightenment fundamentalist."

That brief caveat launched a furious debate. To Mr. Bruckner, the suggestion that Ms. Hirsi Ali should have reached out to believers was apostasy: "How could we tolerate in Islam that which we no longer tolerate in Catholicism? ... Thus the defenders of liberty [i.e. Ms. Hirsi Ali] are styled as fascists, while the fanatics are portrayed as victims."

That was one of his milder comments. He ended with a rambunctious mixed metaphor: Mr. Buruma and Mr. Garton Ash, by suggesting that the religious faithful should have any place in a tolerant society, "are the symptoms of a fatigued, self-doubting Europe, one that is only too ready to acquiesce at the slightest alarm. Yet their good-willed rhetorical molasses covers a different tune: that of capitulation."

A dozen German, Turkish, Dutch, Swedish, French and British intellectuals then piled on, and soon became coiled in a misleading debate about "cultural relativism" and multiculturalism (though none of the original participants was either a relativist or a radical multiculturalist). "The question," Swedish writer Lars Gustafsson argued, "is whether irrationality deserves the same amount of tolerance as rationality." No, he concluded.

Mr. Bruckner scored a good blow: The creed of cultural "tolerance," he wrote, was in fact the opposite, since by tolerating "cultures" you are denying individuals the chance to exist outside of them; you are "denying them the freedom to liberate themselves from their own traditions. … Multiculturalism is a racism of the anti-racists: It chains people to their roots."

But Mr. Buruma offered a defence: "Does living in a free society also imply that people should be able to choose the way they look, or speak, or worship, even if we don't like it, as long as they don't harm others? A free-spirited citizen does not tolerate different customs or cultures because he thinks they are wonderful, but because he believes in freedom."

Acts like Aqsa Parvez's death and the occasional instances of honour killings, he said, are atrocious. "But these are matters of law enforcement. Figuring out how to stop violent ideologies from infecting mainstream Muslims, and thus threatening free societies, is trickier. … If we wish to isolate and defeat religious extremism, we must have mainstream European Muslims as our allies."

At some point in the midst of this inch-thick pile of paper, Mr. Garton Ash notes that this debate is between the Enlightenment of Voltaire, which would have us all follow a universal reason, and the Enlightenment of Locke, which would have us all free to follow our private irrationalities. As ancient and European as it may sound, this seems to have become the Canadian debate.


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1. Comment #99394 by BT Murtagh on December 16, 2007 at 2:41 pm

 avatar
Mr. Buruma offered a defence: "Does living in a free society also imply that people should be able to choose the way they look, or speak, or worship, even if we don't like it, as long as they don't harm others? A free-spirited citizen does not tolerate different customs or cultures because he thinks they are wonderful, but because he believes in freedom."
Yes. Freedom is nothing unless you have the right to be an idiot. What you don't get is the right to impose your idiocy on others - and yes, that can include your own children, if your idiocy can be shown to be harming them.

Other Comments by BT Murtagh

2. Comment #99397 by The Truth, the light on December 16, 2007 at 2:46 pm

 avatar"Should renunciation of spiritual authority be a prerequisite for membership in a free society?"

Absolutely. You can not simply place yourself outside the common rule of law, otherwise you can justify any crime you like.

Other Comments by The Truth, the light

3. Comment #99406 by the great teapot on December 16, 2007 at 3:09 pm

My spiritual leader believes all muslims should be murdered. Surely I can not renounce this belief in a free society, even if I am the sole member of this church. Scumbag.

Other Comments by the great teapot

4. Comment #99407 by Monosilabbiq on December 16, 2007 at 3:10 pm

Yet another sad sad story. It beggars belief. If I was a cynical chap I would have to assume this father acted in accordance with the 5th (?) commandment.

I also assume he will not have to wait for hell after death. Although I am not a father myself, every father I have met would be going through hell now if he had to contemplate the fact that he had murdered one of his own children.

I wish I had some advice for the next Aqsa.

Other Comments by Monosilabbiq

5. Comment #99409 by ramses on December 16, 2007 at 3:14 pm

I think I like this quote:

"Multiculturalism is a racism of the anti-racists: It chains people to their roots."

Other Comments by ramses

6. Comment #99416 by skip on December 16, 2007 at 3:27 pm

 avatarThis Article states" British writer Timothy Garton Ash made the point more strongly a few weeks later: "Ayaan Hirsi Ali is now a brave, outspoken, slightly simplistic Enlightenment fundamentalist."

Timothy Garton Ash has since apologised directly to Ayaan Hirsi Ali Here: http://www.richarddawkins.net/article,2002,Ayaan-Hirsi-Ali-versus-Timothy-Garton-Ash,Axess-TV

He stated that he agrees with Ms. Ali and that althought there may be many forms of Islam, he is as concerned about fundamentalism as she is.

Skipp

Other Comments by skip

7. Comment #99424 by the great teapot on December 16, 2007 at 4:01 pm

Monosillabiq
I bet he only regrets the judgement of those with the power to punish him. if he believes in hell he probably thinks he has booked his ticket to heaven.

Other Comments by the great teapot

8. Comment #99425 by Jack Rawlinson on December 16, 2007 at 4:03 pm

 avatarShould renunciation of a claimed yet wholly unproven deity spiritual authority be a prerequisite for membership in a free society?

Fixed that for you. Oh, and the answer is "Yes, wherever the alleged dictates of the alleged deity conflict with the laws of that society. Or you go to jail. Don't like it? Then get the hell out of my society."

Clear enough? Good. Next!

Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson

9. Comment #99440 by Haikuin on December 16, 2007 at 4:52 pm

Should renunciation of spiritual authority be a prerequisite for membership in a free society?


Wot a novel idea! Could we call 'em, "Illegal Immigrants"? Rent the Outback from Australia - let 'em roam there - free as sheep? If you've ever played RISK, you'd know that Australia is the key to consistent winning. So let 'em win. From there.

I've been looking into the ole "harm caused by religion" thing and actually creating a spreadsheet to deal with quantifying it, using current data. The latest find was this:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2224553,00.html

Other Comments by Haikuin

10. Comment #99447 by Diacanu on December 16, 2007 at 5:08 pm

 avatar
Do the laws of God trump those of man?


Fuck no.
Next case.

Other Comments by Diacanu

11. Comment #99448 by Diacanu on December 16, 2007 at 5:09 pm

 avatarOh, the guy's name was Muhammed, there's a shocker.

*Eye roll, jack-off gesture*

Other Comments by Diacanu

12. Comment #99463 by Fouad Boussetta on December 16, 2007 at 5:48 pm

 avatarI'm a bit depressed.

Here in the Canadian province of Quebec, the Conseil du Statut de la Femme (a government council promoting women's equality rights in society) recommended amending the provincial Charter of Rights to make it written into law that women's equality rights trump religious freedom.

Well, it didn't work out!

It's crazy: basic human rights can't trump religious craziness now...

Other Comments by Fouad Boussetta

13. Comment #99468 by Fouad Boussetta on December 16, 2007 at 5:53 pm

 avatarPascal Bruckner is a really smart French essayist and novelist.

His excellent paper is available online at:
http://www.signandsight.com/features/1146.html

Other Comments by Fouad Boussetta

14. Comment #99480 by Freelance Cynic on December 16, 2007 at 6:37 pm

Fouad Boussetta-

The reason it didn't work out is because it would be unconstitutional for Quebec to do so, as it would go against the canadian charter. The only way for that idea to work is to modify the canadian constitution.

And while I agree with the sentiment of your post, I'm not sure that having gender equality superseding freedom of conscience is such a good idea.

Other Comments by Freelance Cynic

15. Comment #99482 by the great teapot on December 16, 2007 at 6:45 pm

sorry Freelance cynic but Have I missed something.
_surely gnder equality is an absolute right.
Why would anyone think otherwise.

Other Comments by the great teapot

16. Comment #99485 by kraut on December 16, 2007 at 7:03 pm

"I'm not sure that having gender equality superseding freedom of conscience is such a good idea."


It is not freedom of conscience, it is acting illegaly. You can express your mysoginism verbally, but that doesn't give you the freedom to slap your wife or daughter around.
Freedom to exercise you religion is limited strictly by adherence to the legal code and the rights of others. There simply is no point of discussion here.

Other Comments by kraut

17. Comment #99487 by Freelance Cynic on December 16, 2007 at 7:11 pm

Far from me to argue that equality before the law isn't a fundamental human right. But so is freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly and many others.

Those rights are not hierarchical.

Other Comments by Freelance Cynic

18. Comment #99489 by Freelance Cynic on December 16, 2007 at 7:15 pm

kraut-

You're missing the point. It *is* about freedom of conscience, not acting illegally. No one is arguing in favour of your scenario.

Other Comments by Freelance Cynic

19. Comment #99490 by robotaholic on December 16, 2007 at 7:21 pm

 avatarI don't care about "Enlightenment of Voltaire" or "the Enlightenment of Locke" and his irrationalities- seems like a lot of hot air- but that's just shallow me...

The lady Ayan was treated terribly and abused and she got out and now tries to speak out about the poor treatment of women and such - whats wrong with that?

Oh, the guy's name was Muhammed, there's a shocker.

*Eye roll, jack-off gesture*


lol!- I agree

-Why can the name Muhammad belong to ugly, fat, smelly, uneducated, racist people but not to a cute clean fuzzy teadybear? - crazy

Other Comments by robotaholic

20. Comment #99494 by Fouad Boussetta on December 16, 2007 at 7:56 pm

 avatarRobotaholic: what you just wrote is just HILARIOUS!

Other Comments by Fouad Boussetta

21. Comment #99499 by pkruger on December 16, 2007 at 8:29 pm

Do the laws of God

( 'God' meaning ancient rules from a primitive society devised to FORCE intolerance and oppression for means of controlling a civilization, resulting from tyrants unable to devise a code of ethics based on reason, but rather their own fears and ignorance--and a committment, via their faith, to remain fearful and ignorant . )

trump those of man?

( 'man' here meaning laws developed and devised by informed reasonable men with a yearning for knowledge for centuries )

Why should there still be people asking this question?

Other Comments by pkruger

22. Comment #99502 by kraut on December 16, 2007 at 10:20 pm

"But so is freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly and many others."

"It *is* about freedom of conscience, not acting illegally."

And I do not argue against your statement.
But any of those freedoms is NOT limitless.
If they lead to conflict with either the law or infringes on life. liberty or the equal rights of others, then this conflict has to be resolved utilizing the codified law.

Anybody can act as if a "god given law" supercedes a criminal or civil law - all he/she has to do is suffer the consequences of this conflict.

Since there are more gods around then there are codes of laws (just look up the hindu pantheon) the legal system has to be secular, as any law based on one religious belief would violate the law of any other religious belief.

Even from a religious perspective it is preferable to have a law that is not based on any god based commandments pertaining to any particular religion.

Other Comments by kraut

23. Comment #99521 by PJG on December 17, 2007 at 1:15 am

 avatarThe laws of God have superseded those of man for years...

In the UK the laws regarding the slaughter of animals have been disregarded so far as Halal and Kosher meat is concerned.

I have never understood this... the message it sends is that the law of the land does not apply if God says different... why is anyone surprised when some twisted religious nut applies this to how s/he should deal with members of their family?

Other Comments by PJG

24. Comment #99522 by gcdavis on December 17, 2007 at 1:19 am

 avatar
Multiculturalism is a racism of the anti-racists: It chains people to their roots

Like ramses I think this quote stands out. I have taken a lot of stick here and at other forums for opposing the concept of multiculturalism as practised here in the UK. I have been misrepresented as a racist usually by lefties for having the temerity of saying that immigrants should be expected to "sign up" to the core values of the host nation even at the expense of their own cultural origins.

If you want to live in the UK your entry ticket should be to share our values and learn our language (quickly), your colour, class, skills are not the issue. At the heart of the problem is of course religion, a moslem immigrant from Pakistan is less likely to assimilate than a Sikh from India because of the greater subjugation that islam demands. Even Poles bring with them a much stronger, more active and devout version of catholicism than our local version.

As a secularist I am alarmed at the creeping expansion of religion into education and government. Although I see no prospect at all of the UK following America's path, we must fight to keep religious influence at bay and seek always to reign it back.

Multiculturalism's bed fellow is political correctness and timidity amongst politicians. I long for one of them to stand up and assert their Britishness, this should not be confused with nationalism or mistaken for xenophobia. And before someone says "what is Britishness" it suffices to say that it is a broad "church" and not a narrow monoculturalism, in common with most developed societies it allows for wide range of behaviour and practice, if your are a Brit and don't know what it is, then open your eyes and ears, it is all around you.

Other Comments by gcdavis

25. Comment #99525 by Fouad Boussetta on December 17, 2007 at 1:44 am

 avatargcdavis wrote about immigrants: "your entry ticket should be to share our values and learn our language (quickly)".

Exactly. That's really a minimum and not much to ask.

Can't do it? Stay in your country or immigate somewhere else.

Other Comments by Fouad Boussetta

26. Comment #99527 by padster1976 on December 17, 2007 at 1:48 am

 avatarA story to tell when you hear apologists say that surely there's nothing wrong with religion if it gives people comfort. I.e Huw Edwards of BBC fame when interviewing Dawkins.

'Yeah, the dad was comforted. Shame about the daughter. Oh well, we can't critize someones beliefs.'

There's something for the debate points.

Gives comfort? To whom? The daughter who was killed or the father who killed her for being 'un-islamic'?

Other Comments by padster1976

27. Comment #99532 by wooter on December 17, 2007 at 2:15 am

 avatarSorry pall I do not agree with you. In this case the american soldiers who raped and killed a muslim girl and her entire familiy in Iraq are atheists? Let's being more sarcastic. American soldiers killed that girl because she is unislamic. Killing has nothing to do with religion. It is just about you and your understanding. If one is psycho. he or she is pyscho in any religion. Otherwise we will call the killers of all high school shootings are Extremist religion members. I have friends from islam, christianity and Jews, they are all nice and peacefull guys. Blaming on religion became an ace card when atheits are stuck turning blind to what Stalin did in Russia so to speak.

Before attack on religion, how do you convince yourselves that the an unborn baby developes in Mother's womb? Please without mentioning blind "blindwatchmaker. Thanks

Other Comments by wooter

28. Comment #99537 by Titus on December 17, 2007 at 2:40 am

I've just watched the video at the link posted by Haikuin and it moved me to tears. The sooner the virus of religion is removed from this planet the better.

"Multiculturalism is a racism of the anti-racists: It chains people to their roots."

Here, here. Time to develop a shared world culture with an appreciation of our global human history, not just the bit that happened to take place in the country of your birth, free from irrationality and hatred.

Other Comments by Titus

29. Comment #99539 by AllanW on December 17, 2007 at 2:47 am

 avatarRe; Comment #99532

To help anyone make a response, please frame a coherent comment written in English.

Other Comments by AllanW

30. Comment #99542 by alexmzk on December 17, 2007 at 3:09 am

wooter:
Before attack on religion, how do you convince yourselves that the an unborn baby developes in Mother's womb? Please without mentioning blind "blindwatchmaker. Thanks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryology

Other Comments by alexmzk

31. Comment #99546 by Nefrubyr on December 17, 2007 at 3:12 am

 avatar19. Comment #99490 by robotaholic
Why can the name Muhammad belong to ugly, fat, smelly, uneducated, racist people but not to a cute clean fuzzy teadybear?

I think it's got something to do with the accurate depiction of the prophet.

Other Comments by Nefrubyr

32. Comment #99548 by Peacebeuponme on December 17, 2007 at 3:17 am

Wooter

Though it looks for all the world as though you have approached your keyboard in much the same was as Jackson Pollack approaches a canvass, I think I get the sentiment of your post.

I don't think I need to answer, as it has been answered many times before. May I direct you to the "debate points" section of this website, where the specific claims about Mao, Stalin etc are answered, as well as a lot about religious moderates and morality

You may also wish to read God is Not Great for plenty of reasons why we specifically blame religion for many of society's problems.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

33. Comment #99551 by Titus on December 17, 2007 at 3:31 am

Peacebeuponme
"Though it looks for all the world as though you have approached your keyboard in much the same was as Jackson Pollack approaches a canvass..."

Class! :-)

Other Comments by Titus

34. Comment #99554 by PJG on December 17, 2007 at 3:38 am

 avatarWooter

There is no argument that bad people do bad things regardless of religion (though, of course, the soldiers who raped and murdered the Iraqi girl and her family can't have been atheists as "there are no atheists in foxholes"... PLEASE note that this is said sarcastically!)

The point is that religion gives people ADDITIONAL reasons to do bad things which they are able to "justify" in terms of their adherence to the word of God when they would see non-religious reasons to do the same thing as insane, criminal or both. We want to reduce the number of excuses people have to do bad things... surely something any rational person would want? You are right... people are the real problem but some are more of a problem than others!

Other Comments by PJG

35. Comment #99563 by tieInterceptor on December 17, 2007 at 4:16 am

 avatarhey wooter, I just visited your "Other Comments by wooter" and I believe you are either a troll, or just a lazy ID aficionado.

your claim that "how come there is a glass in my hand without a glass maker" a nice variation on the Kirk Cameron painting painter, an "evolution" on the watch/watchmaker analogy,

sounds like you reeeealllllly need to watch this video.

the origin of life made easy, link


after visit this link , a play list of all the other videos of the "science made easy" collection you MUST watch before talking more nonsense.


Science made easy PLAY LIST link

once you watched the 7 of them, you can ask any unanswered questions here ;)

until then... please spare us the tired old bull

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

36. Comment #99564 by notsobad on December 17, 2007 at 4:19 am

 avatar
Yes. Freedom is nothing unless you have the right to be an idiot. What you don't get is the right to impose your idiocy on others - and yes, that can include your own children, if your idiocy can be shown to be harming them.

That's exactly my credo. However, the problem with religion - and dogmatic beliefs in general - is that it's a virus that wants to spread itself using its current hosts.

Oh, and comment #99532 by wooter was hilarious.

Other Comments by notsobad

37. Comment #99572 by Cartomancer on December 17, 2007 at 4:51 am

 avatarYes, this is an Enlightenment debate, but it began long before the eighteenth-nineteenth century European Enlightenment. Christopher Hitchens often brings up Sophocles' Antigone (c. 441 BC) in debate, so it's probably worth doing so again here...

Other Comments by Cartomancer

38. Comment #99573 by Vaal on December 17, 2007 at 4:53 am

 avatarThe laws of God? As God was invented by man, doesn't that mean the laws of Bronze age nomads?

Other Comments by Vaal

39. Comment #99574 by irate_atheist on December 17, 2007 at 5:05 am

 avatar
Do the laws of God trump those of man?
OK God, I'll see your Leviticus and raise you two Criminal Justice Bills and a US Patriot Act.

Now who's holding the best cards, eh? Wanna fold?

Other Comments by irate_atheist

40. Comment #99578 by Peacebeuponme on December 17, 2007 at 5:19 am

OK God, I'll see your Leviticus and raise you two Criminal Justice Bills and a US Patriot Act.
I've just had a revelation. Turns out God's laws include:

(1) Earning money out of a war is a sin
(2) Televangelism is a sin
(3) Imperialism is a sin
(4) Homophobia and sexism are sins
(5) All people have equal rights to palestine
(6) I am to be appointed supreme ruler of the earth with absolute power to promote and police God's laws. I am also personelly exempt from any Law.

I think I'm now holding the best cards.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

41. Comment #99580 by irate_atheist on December 17, 2007 at 5:36 am

 avatar40. Comment #99578 by Peacebeuponme -
2) Televangelism is a sin
Thou shall not preach on the Cathode Ray Tube for I know not what it is.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

42. Comment #99584 by Peacebeuponme on December 17, 2007 at 5:46 am

irate-atheist. I'm afraid you are reading a bad translation. Once again God has shown His prescience in the actual line:

"Thou shall not preach on the plasmascreen, which is sharp of picture."

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

43. Comment #99598 by irate_atheist on December 17, 2007 at 6:51 am

 avatar42. Comment #99584 by Peacebeuponme -

I'm sorry, I have to disagree with you on this. You must understand this commandment in it's Biblical context.

When the Lord God said 'let there be light' in Genesis he became the prime cause of all light creating articles. Cathode ray tubes are therefore implicitly banned along with the incandescant bulb. Yes, the plasma screen is banned, but so are all other artifical light sources.

Use of the incandesant light bulb is blasphemous. Thomas Edison is, in fact, burning in hell as we speak because of his heretical invention.

The arrogance to try and banish the darkness through artificial means is analogous to the Tower of Babel in displaying mans arrogance at trying to see what he should not. This all stems from Adams desire to eat from the tree of Knowledge.

For those who are foolish enough to try to put a more liberal interpretaion on scripture, may I point out that energy efficient bulbs do nothing to assuage His wrath and furious anger.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

44. Comment #99606 by black wolf on December 17, 2007 at 7:10 am

 avatarThe link posted above about the Nigeria witch-hunts reminds me of a recent television report about Malawi. 95% of the populace regard themselves as Catholic. A closer look at their religious practice reveals that they have simply incorporated Christianity into their own traditional religion, complete with miracle and faith healers, spiritual and demonic possessions, witches and sorcery, and ritualistic dances. In Malawi, people can be officially arrested and incarcerated for sorcery.
My point is, European churches apparently count these people as of their kind whenever they want to make a point about whose religion grows fastest or similar inanity. As the pope, they choose to point their fingers at atheists and the all-but-mummified canards about Marxism and Stalinism. But I do not ever hear, see or read about how they condemn and take to decisive action against christianized shamanistic superstitions in Africa, Asia and South America.
I assume this is because they are not willing to alienate the probably actual majority of their followers (even if in affiliation label only). They are terribly afraid to become revealed as what they actually represent: a small circle of ivory tower academics wallowing in delusions of grandeur, desperately clinging to their yard of common ground with common sense, to which they have been reduced by secular enlightenment.
The dishonesty of claiming millions of uneducated, superstitious and far-away people as their own while condemning 'secular fundamentalists' or 'scientism' at home is appalling.
This is precisely why moderate religion is dangerous. It comforts and consolidates itself by spreading holy scriptures to the last backwaters of human society, while disregarding or at best very belatedly concerning itself with the actual educational needs of the people. It is a conspicuous observation that prosperous religious groups from the 'developed world' prefer to found decent schools and finance infrastructure where there is a challenge by a competing religion. This practice unveils their efforts not as altruism, but as a self-aggrandising show of farcical prowess.

How do you domesticate more wild sheep than the other guy? Build more troughs and fill them with better food. And don't attempt to shear their wool until they're safely locked in your corral.

Other Comments by black wolf

45. Comment #99618 by Peacebeuponme on December 17, 2007 at 7:40 am

Irate-Atheist

Are you familiar with Paul Tillich's work on the subject? He presents a convincing argument that it was never God's intention to ban all artificial light – indeed, by creating light in the first place he was guiding man towards his own invention (man being created in God's image).

Earlier scholars have often mis-read or mis-translated certain passages such as:

"The light that guides you comes only through I";
"That [artificial] torch illuminates thy sinfulness"; or indeed
"Thou shall not preach by plasmascreen" (some have interpreted this wrongly as referring to all "light-boxes", but recent work by Michael Drosnin suggests a coded message specifically for plasma screens),

as confirming God's hatred of man-made light.

Tillich maintains that God's commands are intended to avert use of light of a certain strength or clarity. God knew that such light would show us too clearly and highlight our sins, from which we would come further corrupted into ever more sin.

Sadly, generations of electricians and lantern-makers were persecuted by fundamentalists backed-up by bad scholarship.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

46. Comment #99622 by irate_atheist on December 17, 2007 at 7:59 am

 avatar45. Comment #99618 by Peacebeuponme -

When in 1 John 1:7 we read "that if we walk in the light as God is in the light" this demonstrates that faith is more powerful than even the best maglite held by the heretical. It also highlghts the divinity of light itself.

I am sure you are aware of Dr. James Bulford's seminal work "The Light That Guides Us" and his explanation of how we must not rely on artificial means to illuminate our path, but trust only in Jesus. Indeed, by using car headlamps to light our way at night we are both demonstrating our lack of faith as well as blaspheming against the Almighty. All true Christians should drive with their lights off at all times lest they become offensive in the eyes of the Lord.

The passage 'The torch illuminates thy sinfullness' has been misinterpreted for centuries. Modern scholars hold that it is the use of the torch itself that is sinful and marks out the bearer as an unbeliever, rather than the other way round. The torch being, as it were, a sign of one's unwillingness to trust in the Lord.

May I suggest you reappraise your position as regards unnatural lighting lest it be too late?

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47. Comment #99626 by steveroot on December 17, 2007 at 8:05 am

 avatar
46. Comment #99622 by irate_atheist on December 17, 2007 at 7:59 am
45. Comment #99618 by Peacebeuponme -

The passage 'The torch illuminates thy sinfullness' has been misinterpreted for centuries. Modern scholars hold that it is the use of the torch itself that is sinful and marks out the bearer as an unbeliever, rather than the other way round. The torch being, as it were, a sign of one's unwillingness to trust in the Lord.

11. Thou shalt not sit upon thy torch or it burn thee.
-God

Other Comments by steveroot

48. Comment #99628 by The Reverend Dark on December 17, 2007 at 8:10 am

 avatarI must disagree with Bulford's seminal work on the light specifically the torch illuminates thy sinfullness.

One of the non-canonical gospels does shine some light upon this subject.

The torch illuminates thy sinfullness;
Thou art in my image, but for a mirror
I am undone.
Thy arse is flabby and mocked by pox
Thy good wife is not my best work,
She hath the thighs of a hippo;
and the teats of a goat;
With none of the grace of either.
Thy coupling is surely a cure
for priapism in any that watch.

For the love of me, douse the lantern,
and find thyselves two sacks of paper.
In case the first one doth rip.

God.

Here Endeth the lesson:
The Reverend Shayne Dark

PS: Is it just me or does Wooter's discourse smack of the recently departed Ruht?

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

49. Comment #99629 by irate_atheist on December 17, 2007 at 8:12 am

 avatar47. Comment #99626 by steveroot -

How dare you mock us with your a-lightist philosophy. Unless you comprehend the fundamental difference between a Maglite Solitaire and a Mini-Maglite, you are in no position to understand, let alone criticise, this important theological matter.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

50. Comment #99630 by AllanW on December 17, 2007 at 8:14 am

 avatarPS: Is it just me or does Wooter's discourse smack of the recently departed Ruht?

What do you mean, incomprehensible? Or just massively dissonant?

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