Monday, December 17, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version

Dawkins: I'm a cultural Christian

by BBC

Thanks to Linda Ward Selbie for the link.

Reposted from:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7136682.stm

Scientist Richard Dawkins, an atheist known worldwide for arguing against the existence of God, has described himself as a "cultural Christian".

He told the BBC's Have Your Say that he did not want to "purge" the UK of its Christian heritage.

The comments came after Tory MP Mark Pritchard accused "politically correct" people of undermining Christmas.

Professor Dawkins, author of the God Delusion, added that he liked "singing Carols along with everybody else".

On Have Your Say, Mr Pritchard told Prof Dawkins there was an "increasing feeling" that "many of the main Christian festivals are being sidelined and marginalised, sometimes by stealth, sometimes openly".

This, he argued, would allow groups such as the British National Party, to utilise Christian imagery for their own ends.

'Singing carols'

Prof Dawkins, who has frequently spoken out against creationism and religious fundamentalism, replied: "I'm not one of those who wants to stop Christian traditions.

"This is historically a Christian country. I'm a cultural Christian in the same way many of my friends call themselves cultural Jews or cultural Muslims.

"So, yes, I like singing carols along with everybody else. I'm not one of those who wants to purge our society of our Christian history.

"If there's any threat these sorts of things, I think you will find it comes from rival religions and not from atheists."

'Historical signifiance'

Last week, Mr Pritchard called a parliamentary debate on "Christianophobia".

The MP for The Wrekin, Shropshire, complained that Christian heritage was being undermined by secular officials and public figures.

During that debate, community cohesion minister Parmjit Dhanda told MPs that Christianity had had a "significant impact" in securing people's rights and freedoms.

He added: "I fully recognise the full historical and cultural significance [of Christianity] in our country.

"We should all be aware of that and celebrate that."

And the head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, Trevor Phillips, said schools were wrong if they thought celebrating Christmas excluded children who were not Christian.

He said: "Christmas and the celebration of Christmas in this country, though it is a religious festival, is one in which people who are of no religion - or other religions - can share."

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1. Comment #99730 by USA_Limey on December 17, 2007 at 12:37 pm

I think Conservative MP Mark Pritchard will find that indifference, apathy and consumerism are more the root cause of any 'undermining' of christmas, rather than some sinister agenda of the 'politically correct'.

Always good for a few votes from the Tory blue rinse brigade though.

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2. Comment #99731 by alexmzk on December 17, 2007 at 12:38 pm

And the head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, Trevor Phillips, said schools were wrong if they thought celebrating Christmas excluded children who were not Christian.

He said: "Christmas and the celebration of Christmas in this country, though it is a religious festival, is one in which people who are of no religion - or other religions - can share."

hear hear. it's nice to have a winter festival to share with yr family and friends, exchange gifts, eat good food and sing and stuff, no matter what you believe.

Other Comments by alexmzk

3. Comment #99732 by Bonzai on December 17, 2007 at 12:47 pm

Just what the hell is the minister of community cohesion??!!

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4. Comment #99737 by SilentMike on December 17, 2007 at 1:09 pm

I had no idea that "the war on christmas" was going international...

Who care about your silly tree and your silly decorations? Not me I assure you; as long as they're in your living room, leaving your floor -as opposed to, for example, my floor in my house- a mess when the holiday's over, that is.

Now where are my colored candles?

Other Comments by SilentMike

5. Comment #99738 by Matt7895 on December 17, 2007 at 1:10 pm

I'm a cultural Christian too. I'm pretty damn proud of my country's history, and not in a tribalistic or jingostic fashion. It just fascinates me.

I like Christmas, though it really depends how you define it. I like to define it as a special time of year where my family can meet up, share gifts and have fun. That is why it is special for me. And I like singing carols because they remind me it. I certainly don't celebrate it as Christ's birthday, and I don't really think you have to these days... as others have said, Christmas is more pagan than Christian (indeed, the Puritans banned it), you don't need to have an imaginary friend to recognise its importance in British culture.

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6. Comment #99740 by Duff on December 17, 2007 at 1:12 pm

I am the Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary of the Suppress Simple People Party and its Minister of Clinginess. Our party is not politically correct, nor do we condone anything considered culturally significant by simple people, ie., religious festivals, miracles and ID publications. But we do exchange gifts and sing nice songs when in the company of more complex people, but frown and roll our eyes when simple people expound upon simplistic notions. And we like good food.

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7. Comment #99741 by The Truth, the light on December 17, 2007 at 1:14 pm

Given that Christmas is a mixture of Pagan, Christian and a host of other myths and traditions, it could probably be considered the ultimate multi-cultural festival.

Mind you, that hasn't stopped certain groups (ie: Christian) from hijacking the original purpose of Christmas celebrations.

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8. Comment #99743 by Goldy on December 17, 2007 at 1:18 pm

I like Christmas and other holidays because I get time off. I like the food, I like the family thing and this year, I get to see my daughter get presents (not so much fun when she was one - though she did like the box!).
I like Chinese New Year too but we don't get time off unless we have saved days for leave.
I don't go to church, I don't sing hymn or carols. Not anymore, anyway. I can sing along to them if they're on telly. Maybe later on I'll do the singing part again, but they don't do anything for me. That'll all depend on my daughter.
It is a part of my tradition, along with the Austrian bits (mum's Austrian) and I follow it - gives me a sense of being.

Other Comments by Goldy

9. Comment #99745 by DamnDirtyApe on December 17, 2007 at 1:20 pm

I've no problem with this. I'm in Canterbury, and I'd certainly not like to see the Cathedral fall to bits.

Anyway, xmas is pretty secular really, its basically a compromise between a lot of different festivals from older times is the winter solstice. Sure I went to a xian school when I was a kid, but the whole thing is just stories to me. Exactly like the tooth fairy, and of course father christmas.

I've come to realise that Christmas is that special time of year when we remember the one who died, came back to life, and saved us all - Doctor Who.

Yeah, JC turned water into wine, but did he travel through time and space?

Otherwise, I'm just waiting for the half-baked fundamentalist jump-to-conclusions in response to the good professor's remarks.

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10. Comment #99749 by steve99 on December 17, 2007 at 1:28 pm

I've come to realise that Christmas is that special time of year when we remember the one who died, came back to life, and saved us all - Doctor Who.

Superb :)

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11. Comment #99759 by Peacebeuponme on December 17, 2007 at 1:47 pm

This was covered brilliantly by Stephen Fry on QI on Friday. Converservatives have in in their head that Christmas is under attack from woolly liberal multi-culturalism (the oft cited "Winterval" is a complete over-blowing of a small marketing campaign in Birmingham 9 years ago) when nothing of the sort is happening.

But the Sun and the Daily Mail need their hysterical headlines.

I've got no problem putting a bit of Cliff Richard on and singing along with the family at christmas(though maybe I should for entirely aural reasons).

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12. Comment #99760 by robotaholic on December 17, 2007 at 1:48 pm

I've come to realise that Christmas is that special time of year when we remember the one who died, came back to life, and saved us all - Doctor Who.

Superb :)

Superb!

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13. Comment #99774 by Russell Blackford on December 17, 2007 at 2:11 pm

Christmas is essentially a pagan festival anyway - not just in its historical origin but in the way it's celebrated.

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14. Comment #99776 by notsobad on December 17, 2007 at 2:18 pm

Someone at BBC sure didn't know what to write about because Dawkins said this several times before.

Anyway, regarding the Christian heritage, many people give Christianity too much credit for things it didn't create.

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15. Comment #99785 by justdust on December 17, 2007 at 2:33 pm

Superb x 2!

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16. Comment #99790 by Gymnopedie on December 17, 2007 at 2:42 pm

Christmas is so far removed from Christianity that I often forget Christians hold it so dearly as the birth of Santa.

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17. Comment #99794 by Matt7895 on December 17, 2007 at 2:47 pm

You can hardly blame them. The probability that Santa Claus is right now up in his North Pole workshop gathering presents for all the children of the world, is about as likely as Jesus Christ sitting up in heaven looking down on us all. Of course, most people grow out of the Santa Claus myth.

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18. Comment #99802 by Madonna's Stardust on December 17, 2007 at 3:01 pm

I love Christmas because for me, it is a time for the family to get together and share good times - more so now that we are spread all over Canada.

I think that Christians often forget that winter solstice celebrations pre-date Christianity, they are in denial of the festival's pagan past! Let's face it, people that celebrate the birth of Christ as the return of "the son" at this time of year are really celebrating the return of the sun.

In the Northern Hemisphere, I would say that Yule has always been an important part of the year for us and our ancestors, because without it it is such a dark time of the year. Imagine how primitive people must have felt as the days got shorter and the nights got longer - they must have felt like the earth was dying and they had to have some way of "bringing the sun back", which is precisely what the solstice celebrations are all about.

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19. Comment #99837 by Richard Morgan on December 17, 2007 at 4:51 pm

Let me get this right - the keenest critic of moderate religions and "faith-heads" is happy to sing:

"Oh come all ye faithful?"
"Hark, the herald angels sing?"
"Most highly flavoured gravy?"
"Gloria in excelsis Deo"

Would he do it in front of small children, or just with consenting adults?

Madonna's Starbust:
they must have felt like the earth was dying and they had to have some way of "bringing the sun back"

And it works!!! That's a relief, at least...

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

20. Comment #99841 by Cartomancer on December 17, 2007 at 4:59 pm

I used to love Christmas, it was absolutely my favourite time of year bar none. There was a special, loving, family feel to the whole affair, and two weeks off school, though I would be lying if I did not say that the best bit to look forward to was opening the presents on Christmas morning. I also got to camp it up mercilessly in the school nativity play - which occasionally I was even allowed to write too. Happy, happy times.

Unfortunately as I have grown up the magic has grown dim and the unparalleled bewitchment of Christmas Cheer has thinned and departed the world. Christmas became a time first of simple hiatus and now of foreboding and discomfort. Sitting there watching my parents get gradually more drunk and insensible as the day rolls on, having to suffer under the same roof as my brother and his horrible girlfriend, whose presence ruins family coherence and solidarity more powerfully than if Osama bin Laden had come to stay. Presents are no longer magical when you have the purchasing power to get hold of pretty much whatever you want (I have very simple tastes), and inevitably all your friends are doing other things on new year's eve so you end up miserable and alone again.

I do try to recapture the Christmas magic, when I am alone on the crisp, dark nights, by contemplating the universe, both in reality and the myths societies have spun about it. I try to look for the profundity in the christian and pagan ideas that surround the festival, lose myself in ideas of noble self-sacrifice and the inexorable cycling of the seasons, and conjure an air of great deeds, mighty transcendent happenings and numinous sensations of awe. I do this at easter sometimes too, though copious chocolate supplies ensure an altogether more chemical if somewhat less sharp hit of happiness then. When new year comes around I have my own rituals of record-keeping and memoriousness, cataloguing, compiling and rubber-stamping events gone by, tentative respect and foreboding for things that have not yet come to pass. I contemplate the passage of time, the wheel of fortune and the insignificance of my existence. Now the childhood magic is gone, only such cultural myth seems to have the power to lift me from the monotonous depths of disappointment, and I would not for one second be without it.

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21. Comment #99852 by Richard Morgan on December 17, 2007 at 5:24 pm

So, Cartomancer, you need Christmas to lift you from the "monotonous depths of disappointment" (your brother's girlfriend? your drunken parents? what else?)
But what do you have to say to people who need their God lift them out of the depths of anguish and despair?
CHRISTmas is OK but CHRIST isn't?

And perhaps you should go back to your psycho-analyst to talk about your compulsive record-keeping and cataloguing.

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

22. Comment #99854 by Cartomancer on December 17, 2007 at 5:29 pm

Fiction and fantasy qua fiction and fantasy are what I use to make my life seem meaningful, I see no problem with other people doing the same. I just take issue with them thinking that it's true...

And I'm seeing him at noon on wednesday thank you.

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23. Comment #99891 by Richard Morgan on December 17, 2007 at 6:44 pm

Cartomancer - I love your last sentence.
Having read that and wiped my eyes, (I think you just out-Benwayed Dr Benway) I can forgive you all the rest! Let me give you a big hug.

Mwah!

There.

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

24. Comment #99957 by PJG on December 18, 2007 at 1:14 am

A teacher friend of mine was telling me that they no longer have a traditional nativity play at their school for fear of offending the non-Christians.

Instead of the Virgin Mary arriving at the stable and giving birth to the baby Jesus - Son of God, three wise men following a star to a specific building and angels singing "Hallelujah", the children will be performing a nice play involving a talking camel and a number of kind and considerate rabbits....

....the story has a good moral to it and, overall, is a little more believable than the Christmas story... so that is ok.

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25. Comment #99958 by Tyler Durden on December 18, 2007 at 1:23 am

Comment #99759 by Peacebeuponme

I've got no problem putting a bit of Cliff Richard on and singing along with the family at christmas

Ok, but let's not go too far... ;-)

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26. Comment #99960 by notsobad on December 18, 2007 at 1:23 am

And that MP is spewing bullshit indeed.

If you want to enjoy the holiday, you don't have to care about how others do it.
And if you meet with your family and give parents only because you are supposed to, it's fake anyway.

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27. Comment #99962 by NJS on December 18, 2007 at 1:40 am

I have no problem with recognition of christian heritage and enjoy xmas as a whole but I complete disagree with Dawkin's enjoyment of carols. You can't get away from the lyrics which are sycophantic theist nonsense.

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28. Comment #99977 by padster1976 on December 18, 2007 at 2:35 am

What a horribly slanted cynically reported piece of crap.

'See! The Great Atheist sings carols! The bible is completely accurate and must be obeyed!'

Utter rubbish. Shame on the BBC for their self righteous 'balanced' view.

It is probably correct that the UK was founded on Christian principles. But then we took the antidote called enlightenment and left the dark ages behind.

For crying out loud. The 'founding principle'Its not something to be proud of - leaving the dogma behind is what the intelligent ones amongst must be proud of. Once again, we see the obfuscation of some traditions and complete and utter nonsense. You can have one without the other.
I would say for a lot of people, perhaps a majority, find that christmas has lost the original reason - ie celebration of 'baby jesus'. Its rather too commercial now eh? How about the xmas tree thing - that the bible prohibits. Yeah, the christians really missed that point didn't they!

More hypocritical tosh. I wanna complain to the BBC.

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29. Comment #100001 by DamnDirtyApe on December 18, 2007 at 3:38 am

Disclaimer: i'd love to take credit for the Dr Who Line but its a classic a good friend of mine created.

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30. Comment #100004 by DrMarioMD on December 18, 2007 at 3:53 am

I don't think we need to be helping Christians with their marketing. There is a reason why the Knights of Columbus take out advertisements every year telling us to keep Christ in Christmas and why every year we get to hear about the war on Christmas, brand association.

Many people enjoy the time off work/school, family, food, presents, songs, etc. and there is nothing wrong with that but this gets associated with the Christian faith(Thats the whole reason they stole it from the pagans in the first place). This is merely a marketing trick, just like how McDonalds has toys(presents), high sugar/fattening food(Christmas Dinner), memorable fictional characters(Santa, Jesus, Frosty), etc. so that people associate their restaurant with the good memories they had there as a child and become customers for life.

The Christian meme survives a little bit longer every time we allow this ancient marketing champaign to continue unchallenged.

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31. Comment #100018 by jeepyjay on December 18, 2007 at 4:41 am

I'm certainly not a "cultural christian", though the education system in this country (UK) tried its damnedest to turn me into one.

If anything I'm a "cultural rationalist". What counts as of cultural importance to me includes very little, if anything, that can be ascribed to christianity. The traditions I revere go back to the ancient Greeks and the Renaissance.

Christopher Hitchens along with many others (such as the late Alistair Cook) praises the language of the King James Bible. Well I admit it has some good turns of phrase here and there, but for the most part it is incomprehensible tosh. Mind you, the same goes for most of the modern translations. Nonsense in any form of language is still nonsense.

Perhaps the New Atheists shouuld start promoting song-writers to provide new words to old carols, or better still, new words to new tunes, that sing the praises of rationality and science.

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32. Comment #100033 by Heretic on December 18, 2007 at 5:43 am

Ressurections:
Jesus:1 Doctor Who:10(and counting!)

The Doctor WINS!

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33. Comment #100057 by DamnDirtyApe on December 18, 2007 at 6:59 am

If anything I'm a "cultural rationalist". What counts as of cultural importance to me includes very little, if anything, that can be ascribed to christianity. The traditions I revere go back to the ancient Greeks and the Renaissance.

In hindsight, perhaps this is even a more appropriate generalisation. After all, I think we care a great deal about all history. I'm pretty sure most of us have been to a few museums in our time, visited a few historic sites. I've got a list of places worldwide I want to go, not just our own native history. I'd like to see the Pyramids, the Colluseum of Rome, the city of Petra, the Terracotta army and the imperial mausoleum. Does that make me a cultural Egyptian/Roman/etc?

I think 'cultural rationalist' is the only term needed for all of these. Let's all remember our collective histories, all our achievements, and the crazy wonders we built. Sure the Egyptians were loonies literally building their own stairways to heaven, and the emperor of china was suffering from a bad case of self-inflicted murcury poisoning, but out of this people still built increadible things.

We're must preserve and protect our and others history because we learn from it, and because its great. I'll be celebrating christmas. We can track santa's progress with NORAD!

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34. Comment #100185 by rebelest on December 18, 2007 at 11:12 am

I can't imagine why no one has said this yet so:
BAH HUMBUG! he he ha ha ho ho

I'd much rather have worldwide celebrations of changing of seasons: it's the winter solstice throughout the northern hemisphere and summer solstice throughout the southern hemisphere. I think it could be a considerably more unifying humanist endeavor to recognize the wonder of our shared natural phenomena. Of course that should include the recognition of the ultimate origins of most religious celebrations in the core event: the lengthening of days to come; the annual triumph of light over darkness. Personally, I can't wait for more sunshine!

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35. Comment #100212 by padster1976 on December 18, 2007 at 11:42 am

He added: "I fully recognise the full historical and cultural significance [of Christianity] in our country.

So has the holocaust - i.e learn from it so it is never repeated.

Really. Witch burning and all other bigotry is not the foundation of a free society.

Other Comments by padster1976

36. Comment #100357 by Shane McKee on December 18, 2007 at 2:18 pm

Just speaking personally here, but as I've mentioned on the Libby Purves thread, if I hadn't once been a committed Christian, I probably would not now be an atheist. I don't feel any regrets for the particular path I followed, and I know several others who have come this way also. I still have a lot of Christian friends and family. [Having said that, I recognise now that a lot of people I formerly respected are narrow-minded pathetic bigots and fools, but many are genuinely nice people.] I sang "And Can It Be" with gusto at my Grandfather's funeral, knowing full well it was bollocks, but rousing bollocks nonetheless.

I'm human. I make no apologies for that. But I'm a hard-assed rationalist to the core. So I'll sing as if I believed, but I am always happy to help Christians understand their bibles better. It's a great way to help them realise that it's a pile of pants.

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37. Comment #112805 by djspideyspinster on January 18, 2008 at 5:42 am

A little belated Merry Christmas "love" for Richard Dawkins...sort of!

See http://www.truthbomb.blogspot.com/

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38. Comment #112824 by AllanW on January 18, 2008 at 6:31 am

Re; comment #37

I couldn't resist replying.

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39. Comment #112967 by djspideyspinster on January 18, 2008 at 10:47 am

allanw,

Thank you very much for the inquiry. We appreciate your checking out the blog and respectful response to our article, "Merry Christmas...Richard Dawkins?"

First off, I want to assure you that I did not mean to be insulting or "childish" and was merely having some fun. I'm sure that you can appreicate this, especially if you are a fan of Mr. Hitchens, Mr. Harris, and/or Mr. Dawkins. They tend to take some shots and make some jokes, but it's all in good fun...at least from my end it is.

Second, I do not think it uncommon to use quotes to build upon a point that one wants to make, especially in a blog like format. Please don't misunderstand my main point; it was simply:

1) Dawkins obviously detests the God of the OT, which he has the right to do.
2) Then he says he is a cultural Christian.
3) These two ideas clearly seem to conflict.

Mr. D'Souza's article (yes, I am award of his award; I do not agree with D'Souza on every point, nor do I believe him to be the best Christianity has to offer in it's defense; that would be William Lane Craig, see reasonablefaith.org), I felt, made a valid point and I wanted to hightlight that and have some fun with it while making a point. Mainly, ideas have consequences.

I will say that I admire the zeal, passion, and determination of the atheist camp and wish that more believers would seek after reasonable answers for what they believe.

Finally, answers are out there and I encourage you to consider all arguments, as I try to do. Perhaps you could check out some of the links we offer.

Again, thank you so very much for your time.

Sincerely,
DJ Spidey Spinster
Truthbomb Apologetics

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40. Comment #113687 by djspideyspinster on January 20, 2008 at 10:36 am

allanw,

I have been thinking about your comments on our blog and feel that I owe you a sincere apology. We merely desire to weigh the truth of ideas and the validity of worldviews at Truth Bomb Apologetics and I am guilty of taking a "swipe" at atheists and am truly sorry. It certainly does not represent the Christ I desire to honor with my life. Thank you for your respectful critique and in the future I will be more sensitive.

Take care,
DJ Spidey Spinster
Truth Bomb Apologetics

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41. Comment #113704 by AllanW on January 20, 2008 at 11:18 am

Re; comment #113687 djspideyspinster

No apology necessary, I assure you. I admire your stated objective of weighing viewpoints as I too subscribe to it. My response was equally tongue-in-cheek with a little sting at the end so please rest assured that I and, I think, fellow atheists are quite robust enough to take in our strides swipes from wherever they come (although we tend not to turn the other cheek :)).

My best wishes to you and I look forward to dropping into your site in the future.

Regards

AllanW

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42. Comment #113738 by walk on January 20, 2008 at 12:22 pm

djspideyspinster (40),

We merely desire to weigh the truth of ideas and the validity of worldviews at Truth Bomb Apologetics

An admirable goal, and one we here also aspire to. On your Chrisian apologetics wesite you say:

Logically, the cause of the big bang could not have been within nature because nature did not yet exist when it occurred

How do you know this? How do you KNOW that nature did not exist before the big bang? Why couldn't the big bang have been within nature?

therefore, whatever brought nature into existence must be outside of nature and this is precisely what supernatural means!

How do you know this? If you can show us ANY verifiable proof of ANYTHING supernatural you would be the first, and you would win the JREF million dollar prize, and probably win the Nobel prize.

So we can conclude from science itself that miracles are not only possible, but verifiable and necessary to explain the origin of the universe.

If you could please verify a few miracles for us, we would be fascinated. Thank you.

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43. Comment #113761 by Mark Smith on January 20, 2008 at 1:16 pm

djspideyspinster
I just followed the link to your blog and can't find anything about RD. Has it moved?

All I could see is one from December. It does have in it claims about the historicity of the resurrection, which interests me. If you go here: http://richarddawkins.net/article,1966,The-Pagan-Christ,CBC-Tom-Harpur and check out the debate between myself and Albondigas, you will see he takes the same line. I believe I have refuted the argument (though I would think that wouldn't I!) and if you are in the mood I would be delighted if you were to post there where you think I have gone wrong.

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