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Disquiet over schools' moment of silence
by LA Times
Thanks to Marty Weiner for the link.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-silence24dec24,0,7471383.story?coll=la-home-center
Disquiet over schools' moment of silence
A family of Illinois atheists is fighting to overturn a law requiring time for students' quiet reflection. The father and daughter say it mandates prayer.
By P.J. Huffstutter, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
December 24, 2007
CHICAGO -- When high school freshman Dawn Sherman learned that Illinois had a new law requiring public schools to provide a moment of silence each day for "reflection and student prayer," she was outraged.
Not because the law meant lost learning time in her honors math class -- which would be 15 seconds shorter -- but because "it was clear that we're supposed to sit and pray, or sit and watch other people pray," said Dawn, who is an atheist.
Along with her father, Rob, the Buffalo Grove High student has filed a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the law, which some Illinois school boards have raced to embrace and others have defied.
"I don't go to school to talk to God," she said. "I'm in school to learn."
The debate reflects a long-standing national fight over school prayer. The Supreme Court in 1962 ruled that official sponsorship or endorsement of prayer in schools is a violation of the 1st Amendment. Over time, state lawmakers found they were allowed to require moments of silence as long as students were not forced or encouraged to pray.
But there were limits: In the mid-1980s, an Alabama mandatory "moment of silence" law was found unconstitutional by the high court because "there was a clear legislative record that they were trying to advocate getting prayer back into schools," said Charles C. Haynes, a senior scholar at the First Amendment Center in Washington.
"Since then, legislators have been far more careful about what they're saying about why such measures are pushed forward," Haynes said.
According to the National Conference of State Legislatures, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Nevada, New Hampshire, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and Virginia also require such moments of quiet in the classroom. In more than 20 other states, teachers are allowed to decide whether they want such a classroom time-out.
U.S. District Judge Robert W. Gettleman in Illinois is set to hear oral arguments early next year over whether to grant class-action status to the Shermans' case.
In the meantime, Gettleman has ordered Township High School District 214, which oversees Buffalo Grove High, not to participate in the moment of silence. He also has barred the superintendent of the Illinois State Board of Education from enforcing the rule or issuing any directive on how the issue should be handled in other schools.
Critics of such laws argue that they are a first step to threatening the Constitution's separation of church and state.
"We heard a steady stream of complaints, from teachers to parents to students, in the days after the law went into effect," said Colleen Connell, executive director of the ACLU of Illinois.
"We've heard about a principal telling students to remember veterans in their prayers or private reflections," she said. "We've heard that teachers fold their hands and bow their heads, perhaps inadvertently, but sending a message to the kids that they should be praying."
But advocates of the laws say they give educators a tool to focus their students' attention and provide children a chance to reflect on either personal issues or the challenges they might face that day.
"It's certainly a student's constitutional right to engage in silent reflection, even if it includes prayer," said David Cortman, senior legal counsel for the Alliance Defense Fund, a nonprofit Christian law firm that has filed briefs in the Sherman case. "It's as if the mere mention of the word 'prayer' suddenly taints the law."
In 2002, Illinois lawmakers passed the Silent Reflection and Student Prayer Act, which gave teachers the option to have a moment of silence in their classrooms as long as it was not "conducted as a religious exercise."
The law -- which supporters and critics agree is ambiguously worded -- did not outline how compliance would be monitored, did not give school districts a way to opt out and did not specify whether they would be penalized for not participating.
As part of an effort to help teachers across Illinois gain control of their classrooms, state Sen. Kimberly A. Lightford said, lawmakers tweaked the measure's wording. It went from saying educators "may" observe a moment of silence to saying that they "shall."
"What's the problem? Every single time we meet on the Senate floor, we open up the session with prayer -- whether it's given by a rabbi, or a priest, or a Buddhist or a minister," Lightford said.
Gov. Rod R. Blagojevich vetoed the measure, citing constitutionality concerns, but lawmakers overrode him.
When the law went into effect Oct. 11, many Illinois school administrators raced to try to hash out practical issues, such as what amount of time constitutes a "moment." Others opted to simply ignore the legislation. Last month, after failing to get a waiver from the state, Evanston-Skokie School District 65 board members agreed they would not force teachers in their schools to observe the law.
In the northwest Chicago suburb of Buffalo Grove, high school officials announced they planned to follow the rules. They would set aside about 15 seconds at the beginning of third period, right after the Pledge of Allegiance, for the students to sit in silence.
"I've always taught my daughter that you conduct personal business on personal time and school business on school time," said Rob Sherman, an atheist and well-known local civic activist. "I saw this as a deliberate attempt to inject student prayer back into the schools. . . . If the state's legislators weren't going to pay attention to the Constitution, I knew the courts would."
Such legal tussles aren't new to the Shermans.
Rob Sherman has used the threat of legal action to force suburban officials to pull religious symbols from city seals, has fought to remove the word "God" from public property and won a case against the Buffalo Grove Police Department over its sponsorship of a local Boy Scouts program. (He and his son, who had applied to join the local Boy Scouts Explorer post, said it was unconstitutional for the police to sponsor the group because the Scouts required a religious oath of anyone seeking to become a member.)
This fall, Dawn -- a member of Buffalo Grove High's student council -- persuaded the school to remove "God Bless America" from its list of songs played on campus during homecoming week.
Since then, she said, she's gotten used to critical looks and occasional hostility from her classmates and neighbors: So far this school year, her house has been egged. Crosses and religious phrases -- including "Jesus loves you," with Jesus misspelled -- have been chalked on her family's driveway. People driving by stick their heads out the window and holler out the lyrics to "God Bless America."
Since the Shermans filed suit, even some of Dawn's closest friends have started to criticize her.
"My one friend was really angry because he liked having that moment to think about his life. He's going through a tough time. His parents are getting divorced. His brother's not very nice to him," Dawn said.
"It's hard, because I understand he has rights. But so do I."
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-silence24dec24,0,7471383.story?coll=la-home-center
Disquiet over schools' moment of silence
A family of Illinois atheists is fighting to overturn a law requiring time for students' quiet reflection. The father and daughter say it mandates prayer.
By P.J. Huffstutter, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
December 24, 2007
CHICAGO -- When high school freshman Dawn Sherman learned that Illinois had a new law requiring public schools to provide a moment of silence each day for "reflection and student prayer," she was outraged.
Not because the law meant lost learning time in her honors math class -- which would be 15 seconds shorter -- but because "it was clear that we're supposed to sit and pray, or sit and watch other people pray," said Dawn, who is an atheist.
Along with her father, Rob, the Buffalo Grove High student has filed a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the law, which some Illinois school boards have raced to embrace and others have defied.
"I don't go to school to talk to God," she said. "I'm in school to learn."
The debate reflects a long-standing national fight over school prayer. The Supreme Court in 1962 ruled that official sponsorship or endorsement of prayer in schools is a violation of the 1st Amendment. Over time, state lawmakers found they were allowed to require moments of silence as long as students were not forced or encouraged to pray.
But there were limits: In the mid-1980s, an Alabama mandatory "moment of silence" law was found unconstitutional by the high court because "there was a clear legislative record that they were trying to advocate getting prayer back into schools," said Charles C. Haynes, a senior scholar at the First Amendment Center in Washington.
"Since then, legislators have been far more careful about what they're saying about why such measures are pushed forward," Haynes said.
According to the National Conference of State Legislatures, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Nevada, New Hampshire, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and Virginia also require such moments of quiet in the classroom. In more than 20 other states, teachers are allowed to decide whether they want such a classroom time-out.
U.S. District Judge Robert W. Gettleman in Illinois is set to hear oral arguments early next year over whether to grant class-action status to the Shermans' case.
In the meantime, Gettleman has ordered Township High School District 214, which oversees Buffalo Grove High, not to participate in the moment of silence. He also has barred the superintendent of the Illinois State Board of Education from enforcing the rule or issuing any directive on how the issue should be handled in other schools.
Critics of such laws argue that they are a first step to threatening the Constitution's separation of church and state.
"We heard a steady stream of complaints, from teachers to parents to students, in the days after the law went into effect," said Colleen Connell, executive director of the ACLU of Illinois.
"We've heard about a principal telling students to remember veterans in their prayers or private reflections," she said. "We've heard that teachers fold their hands and bow their heads, perhaps inadvertently, but sending a message to the kids that they should be praying."
But advocates of the laws say they give educators a tool to focus their students' attention and provide children a chance to reflect on either personal issues or the challenges they might face that day.
"It's certainly a student's constitutional right to engage in silent reflection, even if it includes prayer," said David Cortman, senior legal counsel for the Alliance Defense Fund, a nonprofit Christian law firm that has filed briefs in the Sherman case. "It's as if the mere mention of the word 'prayer' suddenly taints the law."
In 2002, Illinois lawmakers passed the Silent Reflection and Student Prayer Act, which gave teachers the option to have a moment of silence in their classrooms as long as it was not "conducted as a religious exercise."
The law -- which supporters and critics agree is ambiguously worded -- did not outline how compliance would be monitored, did not give school districts a way to opt out and did not specify whether they would be penalized for not participating.
As part of an effort to help teachers across Illinois gain control of their classrooms, state Sen. Kimberly A. Lightford said, lawmakers tweaked the measure's wording. It went from saying educators "may" observe a moment of silence to saying that they "shall."
"What's the problem? Every single time we meet on the Senate floor, we open up the session with prayer -- whether it's given by a rabbi, or a priest, or a Buddhist or a minister," Lightford said.
Gov. Rod R. Blagojevich vetoed the measure, citing constitutionality concerns, but lawmakers overrode him.
When the law went into effect Oct. 11, many Illinois school administrators raced to try to hash out practical issues, such as what amount of time constitutes a "moment." Others opted to simply ignore the legislation. Last month, after failing to get a waiver from the state, Evanston-Skokie School District 65 board members agreed they would not force teachers in their schools to observe the law.
In the northwest Chicago suburb of Buffalo Grove, high school officials announced they planned to follow the rules. They would set aside about 15 seconds at the beginning of third period, right after the Pledge of Allegiance, for the students to sit in silence.
"I've always taught my daughter that you conduct personal business on personal time and school business on school time," said Rob Sherman, an atheist and well-known local civic activist. "I saw this as a deliberate attempt to inject student prayer back into the schools. . . . If the state's legislators weren't going to pay attention to the Constitution, I knew the courts would."
Such legal tussles aren't new to the Shermans.
Rob Sherman has used the threat of legal action to force suburban officials to pull religious symbols from city seals, has fought to remove the word "God" from public property and won a case against the Buffalo Grove Police Department over its sponsorship of a local Boy Scouts program. (He and his son, who had applied to join the local Boy Scouts Explorer post, said it was unconstitutional for the police to sponsor the group because the Scouts required a religious oath of anyone seeking to become a member.)
This fall, Dawn -- a member of Buffalo Grove High's student council -- persuaded the school to remove "God Bless America" from its list of songs played on campus during homecoming week.
Since then, she said, she's gotten used to critical looks and occasional hostility from her classmates and neighbors: So far this school year, her house has been egged. Crosses and religious phrases -- including "Jesus loves you," with Jesus misspelled -- have been chalked on her family's driveway. People driving by stick their heads out the window and holler out the lyrics to "God Bless America."
Since the Shermans filed suit, even some of Dawn's closest friends have started to criticize her.
"My one friend was really angry because he liked having that moment to think about his life. He's going through a tough time. His parents are getting divorced. His brother's not very nice to him," Dawn said.
"It's hard, because I understand he has rights. But so do I."
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Posted: Monday, December 24, 2007 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 60 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #103022 by HeloAtheist on December 24, 2007 at 7:52 am
Any chance we could find a way to contact Dawn Sherman, possibly through her father, to give her some support? I'm figuring she's going through a lot of shitty treatment at the hands of peers right now, and she should know that I, for one, greatly appreciate her fighting these battles for all of us.Other Comments by HeloAtheist
3. Comment #103024 by AmericanHumanist on December 24, 2007 at 7:55 am
The Shermans would be appalled if they attended the Georgia school where I am an administrator. The week before the break was filled with references to the baby jesus, and each day begins with the longest "moment" of silence conceivable. If this isn't establishment, I can't imagine what is, but to rail against it would mean my job... Other Comments by AmericanHumanist
4. Comment #103037 by FightingFalcon on December 24, 2007 at 8:29 am
Ugh....I hate reading stuff like this. Why do Atheists always choose the wrong battle at the wrong time? We aren't going to win these battles and it only alienates prospective allies. At least the school is offering a moment of silence as opposed to prayer in school. It's only 15 seconds of sitting in silence - is that so wrong?
I wish my fellow Atheists would pick their battles wiser and with more consideration for the rest of us.
Other Comments by FightingFalcon
5. Comment #103040 by lobdog on December 24, 2007 at 8:40 am
FightingFalconsurely this is the thin end of the wedge, that if allowed to continue unapposed does create future problems.
i.e. we are renaming "quiet reflection" time to prayer time, what difference does a name make? etc etc
Other Comments by lobdog
6. Comment #103041 by ChrisMcL on December 24, 2007 at 8:43 am
"As long as there are tests, there will be prayer in school." Other Comments by ChrisMcL
7. Comment #103044 by Rudism on December 24, 2007 at 8:48 am
If I were still in school, and a policy like that was implemented, I would invent a crazy prayer ritual for a made-up religion that involves some very wacky (but silent) gestures. It would certainly involve at least 5 seconds of chicken dance.Other Comments by Rudism
8. Comment #103046 by Barbara on December 24, 2007 at 8:50 am
"It's certainly a student's constitutional right to engage in silent reflection, even if it includes a prayer," said David Cortman, senior legal counsel for the Alliance Defense Fund, a nonprofit Christian law firm that has filed briefs in the Sherman case. "It's as if the mere mention of the word 'prayer' suddenly taints the law."
The students' certainly have the right to reflect/pray in their own heads and on their own time. However, setting aside school time specifically for this purpose, even if only for 15 seconds, is a different matter. It simply is not the time or place for such things. Why is this so hard to understand?
Other Comments by Barbara
9. Comment #103047 by al-rawandi on December 24, 2007 at 8:52 am
Why do they need silence or reflection? They need instruction.I am a libertarian so I feel that when I give the government money, I have a right to expect it is spent wisely. I expect that money to be used to educate children, not have them 'reflect' or 'pray' or whatever else. This is not what school is for. 'Reflect' at your own damn house, or go to a religious school. Keep your private idiocy private, let the public sphere be for the secular benefit of all people.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
10. Comment #103049 by Janus on December 24, 2007 at 8:52 am
Hmmm. I'm sort of torn on this one.1) A moment of silence isn't inherently a religious thing.
2) It's always felt like the popular religious tactic of giving a secular name to a religious something in order to sneak it into the public sphere, the most famous example being calling creationism "intelligent design". Aren't we being naive if we let ourselves be fooled by this kind of thing?
3) While I'm not big on compromising ourselves in the name of "not alienating prospective allies", I have to admit it's a battle that will have rather insignificant positive effects if it's won, whereas it might have negative effects (from a PR point of view) whether it's won or lost.
4) As lobdog has said, this could very well be the thin end of the wedge, and we all know how insidious religious believers can be.
Other Comments by Janus
11. Comment #103050 by toddaa on December 24, 2007 at 8:53 am
Don't these schools restrooms? I cannot think of a better place to have a moment of silence than a bathroom stall. In fact, its one of the very few places left where you can truly get a moment to yourself for quiet reflection. And it's practical, too. Unlike prayer.Other Comments by toddaa
12. Comment #103051 by Radesq on December 24, 2007 at 8:54 am
Fighting Falcon -- My inclination is to agree with you, I don't like getting all worked up over little things. But, what would be the right fight at the right time? In the USA this stuff is so ingrained in the culture you have to start somewhere. Why not start with allowing children to have their own moments of quiet contemplation when they feel like it -- rather than by group coercion (even if that may be too strong a word for it) Other Comments by Radesq
13. Comment #103052 by eric711 on December 24, 2007 at 8:57 am
As part of an effort to help teachers across Illinois gain control of their classrooms, state Sen. Kimberly A. Lightford said, lawmakers tweaked the measure's wording. It went from saying educators "may" observe a moment of silence to saying that they "shall."This is a war of attrition being waged by the churches. The people who are pushing this don't consider this a trifling detail and neither should we.
Other Comments by eric711
14. Comment #103053 by steveroot on December 24, 2007 at 8:58 am
"What's the problem? Every single time we meet on the Senate floor, we open up the session with prayer -- whether it's given by a rabbi, or a priest, or a Buddhist or a minister," Lightford said.
Somewhere on YouTube is an example of what can happen if the prayer is not specifically christian. Not very pretty, as I recall.
BTW, I live in Illinois, and the moment of silence does not bother me much. The language was pretty explicit that it was *not* for religious purposes. My son, a sophomore in high school, says he and most of his friends think it's "stupid".
Steve
Other Comments by steveroot
15. Comment #103054 by Corylus on December 24, 2007 at 8:59 am
Fighting FalconIt's only 15 seconds of sitting in silence - is that so wrong?
In abstract nothing, but this is not what this is about. This is about understanding the horsetrading methods used by certain individuals with an anti-secularist agenda. Don't underestimate them.
Two laws of bargaining:
1) If you want something small....
Don't ask for it outright. First ask for something really large. You will be turned down. Then ask for the small thing. You are likely to get it because people like to reward what is seen as compromise and often feel bad about turning down requests.
2) If you want something big...
Never mention your ultimate aim. Instead ask for something really, really small –What's the harm? Then ask for something really small. If resistance is met point out that the really, really small request has just been granted. What's the difference?
Other Comments by Corylus
16. Comment #103055 by AllanW on December 24, 2007 at 9:02 am
"2) If you want something big...Never mention your ultimate aim. Instead ask for something really, really small –What's the harm? Then ask for something really small. If resistance is met point out that the really, really small request has just been granted. What's the difference? "
A quite ironic parallel to the effects of evolution by natural selection! lawl
Other Comments by AllanW
17. Comment #103056 by Roger Stanyard on December 24, 2007 at 9:03 am
FightingFalcon,If I were an American Christian I would still take issue with the insistance on 15 seconds' or one minute's silence in state schools.
The Religious Right (read fundamentalists) detests what they believe is compromise and I suspect that the compulosry silence is just part of a larger agenda for them to get total control over education and use it for their own ends.
We've already seen this time and time again with trying to get creationism into schools. We have known for years that Intelligent Design is an utterly fraudulent scam to do so and even then, the real motive is to socially re-engineer America as a fundamentalist Christian state. The evidence is in the Wedge document.
I've long concluded that fundamentalists systematically, habitually and repeatedly lie, deceive and cheat out of necessity. It is the only way their position is sustainable.
My personal view is that I don't have a quarrel with mainstream religion - it's with fundamentalist and creationists. I don't see them as proper Christians. They are basically members of exclusive cult movements - much the same as scientologists, moonies or whatever.
Yep, it is there that I believe the real danger of religion is and, for what it is worth, and am very happy to work with the mainstream religious in exposing fundamentalists for what they are - dangerous ideological extremists on a par with facists, hard-line Trotskyites, Marxist-Leninists, Maoists, They are all birds of a feather.
It's not just that they are for the most part creationists; they are also dispensationalists and dominionist. Their aim is theocracy and a war in the Middle East.
What do the Americans in this group think about the periods of sielce in schools? Do they think it is just a front for the rampant extremism in religion in the USA today?
Other Comments by Roger Stanyard
18. Comment #103057 by Barbara on December 24, 2007 at 9:03 am
Students who want to silently reflect/pray during the school day will do so whether there is time allotted for it or not. As trivial as this issue may seem to some of us, it's still a matter of giving an inch to the religious and having them take 10 miles later on. I say, fighting the small battles will help to keep the battles small. Other Comments by Barbara
19. Comment #103065 by Radesq on December 24, 2007 at 9:20 am
Barbara at 18 is right. Individuals are not prevented from exercising their rights - just because the institutionalization of a moment of silence (which really means prayer or why bother organizing at all?) is prohibited. Will the Shermans and their supporters be derided as fundamentalists, militant, strident, intolerant, angry? Almost certainly. They will just have to smile and repeat the Reason for their opposition. Other Comments by Radesq
20. Comment #103066 by black wolf on December 24, 2007 at 9:24 am
But advocates of the laws say they give educators a tool to focus their students' attention and provide children a chance to reflect on either personal issues or the challenges they might face that day.
15 SECONDS???? Gimme a break. Do they think we're in a 1953 soap opera where it takes that long to resolve solutions for problems?
"It's certainly a student's constitutional right to engage in silent reflection, even if it includes prayer," said David Cortman, senior legal counsel for the Alliance Defense Fund, a nonprofit Christian law firm that has filed briefs in the Sherman case. "It's as if the mere mention of the word 'prayer' suddenly taints the law."
Sure it's his right. He can also do it on the school bus, before class, in between classes, during class, during exams (which I'd do if prayers worked at all), after school. XV SECONDS of silence!!!!
Btw, yes the word 'prayer' does taint the law. Not 'suddenly', but for at least the last 100 years.
*rant* Not only does it taint the law, it also taints the way the rest of the sane world looks at your country. It also taints the way your mind works. *rant off*
"My one friend was really angry because he liked having that moment to think about his life. He's going through a tough time. His parents are getting divorced. His brother's not very nice to him," Dawn said.
Oh Dawn, Dawn. Does your friend also tell you how he manages to resolve his tough problems and personal issues by thinking for 15 seconds in daily intervals? If he can, his problems to him are NOT even remotely worthy of the adjective 'tough'.
I'd not be very nice to my brother if he insisted to behave like that. Most students need 15 seconds to read and comprehend a single sentence, bloody hell!
Sounds harsh, but that's what reality is like. And I might add, I know how he feels, and 15-second- brain-activity is a safe way to permanent therapy necessity. For life.
Other Comments by black wolf
21. Comment #103070 by Crosius on December 24, 2007 at 9:27 am
Using peer pressure and the internal desire to "fit in" is a powerful strategy used by many cults to coerce conversion. The "silent moment of reflection" is designed to make the students who do not pray feel isolated when they look around and see their peers "united" in prayer.This "harmless" moment calls attention to the differences between the students. Significantly, this occurs in high-school, where being different from your peers can result in eggs thrown at your house, and people screaming at you from their cars.
The policy is not harmless. It is intended to make non-believers feel uncomfortable. It's intended to "out" the non-religious so they can be turned into targets for the kind of negative behaviour described in the latter part of the article. It is a subtle program of coercion and intimidation.
Other Comments by Crosius
22. Comment #103078 by Rtambree on December 24, 2007 at 9:36 am
A moment's silence to remember all those who have been tortured or killed in the name of religion or ideology.Other Comments by Rtambree
23. Comment #103080 by Barbara on December 24, 2007 at 9:40 am
Neil S wrote:I like to think that in a few decades we're going to look back at this time and see just how unwise we were to allow open season on developing minds. In misguided reverence to notions of liberty and freedom, nearly continuous electronic entertainment is seen as a birthright. All kinds of hucksters compete for attention, attention being neural processing time, and we're starting to understand that there's a cost. As we understand more, we're going to start caring about the psyhcological audio-visual environment of the young in much the way we now do about air quality.
The difference is, the hucksters spewing their garbage at us from our electronics can be silenced/ignored with the ease of pushing a button. In a classroom, you're a captive audience.
Other Comments by Barbara
24. Comment #103086 by al-rawandi on December 24, 2007 at 9:42 am
Neil,This is just the first drop in a coming torrent of irrational revival in the United States. As I said in an earlier post, I pay taxes to educate children so I don't have to hire fuck ups down the road. And that way the well educated can continue to make me gaudy sums of money. I don't pay for any 'reflection' or 'silence'. It is as much a fiscal issue as it is a principle issue.
Let the Christ Squad have this one, and you can expect more. What the hell is the moment of silence for? Be specific, what are they reflecting on? The very mention of prayer belies the true raison d'etre. The government does not need to regulate time in the public sphere for any kind of religious observance. Our constitution is quite clear on the matter.
Don't cave in for these Bible thumpers.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
25. Comment #103089 by obscured by clouds on December 24, 2007 at 9:46 am
1) A moment of silence isn't inherently a religious thing.
What is a secular reason for it? Outside of religion where is the precedent for such a thing?
Other Comments by obscured by clouds
26. Comment #103091 by Radesq on December 24, 2007 at 9:48 am
Neil: Maybe the US kids should have five moments of silence per day and maybe they should all face toward Washington DC when they do -- so their contemplative power will assist the Department of Education. Other Comments by Radesq
27. Comment #103094 by FightingFalcon on December 24, 2007 at 9:51 am
I understand what everyone is saying - I truly do. And I would be right there with everyone if this was a subject as important as prayer in school or teaching Creationism/ID in science classes.But it isn't. It's a moment of silence in school to reflect upon whatever you want. We as Atheists have to understand that we're in the minority and have to pick and choose our battles. Things like this or trying to remove "under god" from the American Pledge of Allegiance only further our opponent's claims that we seek to destroy the historical Judeo-Christian values of America. It only fuels the base of Bill O'Reilly and his "war on Christmas" types.
We're a minority living (altho I'm living in England now) in a country that is dominated by Christians. Evangelical Christians at that. We must save our strength for when the real struggles come. Moments of silence in school do not amount to a significant enough struggle to get involved in. It only furthers to anger people who would normally be on our side.
Other Comments by FightingFalcon
28. Comment #103095 by black wolf on December 24, 2007 at 9:52 am
What is a secular reason for it? Outside of religion where is the precedent for such a thing?
I just found something:
http://www.myspace.com/cephalgy
This band's new album is called 'Moment der Stille' - Moment of Silence
;)
Or this:
"In recent years a trend has developed (particularly with English sports fans) to fill the traditional minute of silence with a minute's applause. Psychologically this is seen by some to convey a fond celebration of the deceased rather than the traditional solemnity. Recent recipients of the minute's applause include international footballers George Best and Alan Ball. The death of Ray Gravell, former Llanelli rugby club president and Welsh international, was also marked in this way at various rugby grounds in Wales and the UK."
wikipedia
Other Comments by black wolf
29. Comment #103100 by obscured by clouds on December 24, 2007 at 9:55 am
I just found something:
http://www.myspace.com/cephalgy
This band's new album is called 'Moment der Stille' - Moment of Silence
lol that's funny but falls way short of the Bar that religion has set. Try again ;)
Other Comments by obscured by clouds
30. Comment #103101 by al-rawandi on December 24, 2007 at 9:56 am
I have been contemplating something recently. We get together and buy some sizeable tropical island. We create an atheist nation-state. Immigration is based on not being a fucktard. If you are a swimsuit model, we can forgo the immigration standard.That is just a thought. This may have more to do with my addiction to mai tai's and tropical women.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
31. Comment #103103 by black wolf on December 24, 2007 at 9:59 am
"I have been contemplating something recently. We get together and buy some sizeable tropical island. We create an atheist nation-state. Immigration is based on not being a fucktard. If you are a swimsuit model, we can forgo the immigration standard."Why buy it? Claim that No God promised it to Unbelievers, the People of No Holy Writ, 100,000 years ago and annex any part of the world... of our own choosing, 'cuz we have free will, of course.
Other Comments by black wolf
32. Comment #103105 by bluebird on December 24, 2007 at 10:00 am
At the CafePress store:
http://www.cafepress.com/realitees/783369
Other Comments by bluebird
33. Comment #103106 by AllanW on December 24, 2007 at 10:04 am
Re; #33 and #34Nice idea guys but I won't settle for anything less than the whole damn planet :) and then whichever worlds we get to explore as a result of not spending vast amounts of the worlds resources (including time and effort) in irrational conflicts; 'kay?
Other Comments by AllanW
34. Comment #103109 by al-rawandi on December 24, 2007 at 10:06 am
Black Wolf,Kind of like a Zionism mixed with the Diego Garcia evictions.
As president of this promised land. I would immediately institute a parliamentary 2 drink minimum and invade Liechtenstein.
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35. Comment #103116 by Barbara on December 24, 2007 at 10:17 am
Neil, #25:If the religious lobbied for free omega-3 for kids (fish oils are thought to improve concentration) motivated by some New Testament directive about pure minds, or, for increased coverage of geometry, out of the belief that exposure to the idealism of mathematical proofs would bring people closer to understanding the divine, must we instinctively oppose them?
Not necessarily. If omega-3 is proven to improve concentration then it's a good thing for everyone (well, maybe not for vegans), including the nonreligious. Increasing a persons brain power has nothing to do with prayer in schools. What is a 'pure mind' anyway?
Now, if increased coverage of geometry could prove that an intelligent divine being exists I'd be very interested in this. I still believe that any discussion of the 'divine' belongs in homes and religious institutions, not in the schools.
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36. Comment #103117 by al-rawandi on December 24, 2007 at 10:22 am
Or you could just teach them the subject matter and let them discuss that.I don't understand the need for the touchy feely stuff. Let them read controversial and stimulating works, and let them discuss that in a fair and reasonable fashion.
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37. Comment #103129 by eric711 on December 24, 2007 at 10:43 am
I think we agree that we should be able to assess the desirability of a proposal without overly focusing on the motivations of the proposer.Should the inhabitants of Troy not have been overly focused on the motives behind such a lovely gesture as the Trojan Horse?
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38. Comment #103139 by al-rawandi on December 24, 2007 at 11:00 am
eric,damn straight. Look at the source of this nonsense. Some asshole at the Discovery Institute probably came up with the semantic slight of hand.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
39. Comment #103142 by PrimeNumbers on December 24, 2007 at 11:03 am
What's wrong with it? It's the thin end of the wedge! Just because it's called "silence" the teachers know what it means, and the children know what it means, and it means "prayer".And we all know what peer pressure is like at that age.... We very well know that this is Christian prayer in schools by the back door, and yes, we all know that prayers before council meetings are un-constitutional as well.
Religion, as we know, is a dirty habit and should be kept in private. The practice of religion has no place in our halls of government, no place in our schools.
As for the notion of "saving strength" for the "big battles" - how on earth do you hope to get people to fight the big ones, if you can't at least win a few border skirmishes to get some practice in? Through the means of mass communication, we can show the world that their morals don't come from religion, that life has a greater beauty and meaning because there is not a god. We can point out the absurdities of the fruitcake religious nutters. We will get no where letting Christian bullies walk all over our rights, walk all over our humanity.
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40. Comment #103145 by al-rawandi on December 24, 2007 at 11:06 am
PrimeNumbers,Amen.... Uhhh I mean, I agree. This is so patently obvious.
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41. Comment #103146 by eric711 on December 24, 2007 at 11:08 am
Eric, check out my #38. Shh... it's a Trojan Horse for secularism.You can't be serious. In what country? Pff... don't get played for a fool Neil.
Other Comments by eric711
42. Comment #103167 by Skepticon on December 24, 2007 at 11:39 am
How about a moment of reflection on the Constitution? The principal could read a passage from the document every day. Who could argue with that?Other Comments by Skepticon
43. Comment #103173 by Shane McKee on December 24, 2007 at 11:45 am
I'm with FightingFalcon in this. This is not the right battle (but then I'm not American). What would send out a powerful message is if atheists *welcome* this, and put out a strong positive message about how this allows secular students to think about what they have learned, and to think of ways to be nice to their fellow students and others. Even call it a "moment of secular reflection". See how fast the religionists move then!Seriously, it worked for Christianity - hijack everyone else's traditions. There is not reason why atheists should not do likewise. For one thing, it would "heap coals of fire upon their heads".
Enough with the victim mentality. It's time to be empowered.
Other Comments by Shane McKee
44. Comment #103174 by al-rawandi on December 24, 2007 at 11:50 am
Shane,In this country, you have to take some ass and kick some names when it comes to your rights.
This government has shown if you don't squeak, it will yank your rights right out from under you. Now they can throw is in jail and not give us and attorney or trial. It doesn't seem a long shot to make paryer a daily event.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
45. Comment #103176 by rebelest on December 24, 2007 at 11:58 am
I'm wondering if those of you who think that this moment of silence initiative is OK read this article.It is clearly an attempt to insinuate prayer into the school systems. It has been going on for decades.
The real issue is that legislators across the U.S. waste so much taxpayer time and money on these insidious attempts to pander to their religious constituencies contra the first amendment.
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46. Comment #103180 by Duff on December 24, 2007 at 12:15 pm
A proposition: Make prayer mandatory in every school class. Everyday, a different student must say an original prayer they have prepared. The sniggering and ribbing will make the daily prayer a source of humor and derision that will cheapen prayer in the minds of the children for the rest of their lives. I know, thats how we used to do it in Idaho back in the old days.Other Comments by Duff
47. Comment #103205 by MelM on December 24, 2007 at 1:32 pm
A Common Thread!Like "Intelligent Design" and "Bible Literacy", the "moment of silence" is just another attempt to sneak religion into the U.S. public schools by giving it a secular face and propaganda campaign...yet another religious wolf in secular clothing. In this case, the clothing is full of holes and worn thin; the wolf is almost naked and fairly obvious!
Other Comments by MelM
48. Comment #103222 by k1mgy on December 24, 2007 at 2:12 pm
This mandate for silence works both ways. The students get to enjoy 15 seconds of silence from some partisan idiot at the head of the class.What of students who refuse to silence themselves? That would make for quite a challenge.
This is as much about religion as it is about authority of the state. School, at least here in 'Murca, is an institution to turn out compliant little clones. Free thinkers will be squashed, assimilated or jailed.
Other Comments by k1mgy
49. Comment #103224 by GodlessHeathen on December 24, 2007 at 2:22 pm
I'd consider this "moment of silent reflection" thing to be not worth the battle - in and of itself.But it's not isolated. There's the fact this has the stench of "thin end of the wedge". There's the fact that teens are vicious li'l things and some will ostracize those they note aren't praying. (Irony meter peg: Their holy book says that "Christ" tells them not to ever pray in public.)
There was a 20 second "Moment of silence" in my high school - public here in the USA - and it was the source of many problems. Including one boy who would very loudly pray to "Satan" or to "Buddha" or to "Brahma"... I found his deity-of-the-week "prayers" mildly amusing, but many students were deeply offended and he spent a lot of time pulling himself out of trash cans.
So, I'm behind their fight. The small fires need to be stomped out too.
Other Comments by GodlessHeathen
50. Comment #103228 by Dinah on December 24, 2007 at 2:48 pm
In the UK we have a lot of religion in schools. Thousands of schools are 'faith' schools, even secular schools are supposed to have a compulsory religious assembly each day, and RE is part of the curriculum. Added to this we have a Head of State who is also Head of the Church of England, and Bishops in the House of Lords. Yet we are a far, far less religious country than the USA. Could the teaching of religion in schools actually be putting children off religion? Or are there other explanations?Other Comments by Dinah
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1. Comment #103015 by Geoff on December 24, 2007 at 7:38 am
Hardly a coherent response from the godbotherers:
Equally unconstitutional, I'd have thought.
Other Comments by Geoff