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Sunday, December 30, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document It is possible to be moral without God

by Bishop Harries

Reposted from:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2233343,00.html

RELATED: Watch Richard Dawkins interview Bishop Harries

We should recognise and celebrate good wherever we come across it, while being ready to acknowledge and counter the darker side of human nature

Richard Harries
Sunday December 30, 2007
The Observer

Philosopher Michael Ruse has written: 'The God Delusion makes me embarrassed to be an atheist.' But in all the hype and embarrassment over geneticist Professor Richard Dawkins's anti-religious arguments, there is an important strand in his argument that has been overlooked: his views on morality. These are interesting and significant, and well worth weighing very seriously.

First, and most importantly, he corrects the wrong impression given by the title of his most famous book, The Selfish Gene. Many people took this to mean that he thought that human beings had no option but to act selfishly. Quite the contrary. At a personal level, Dawkins believes that whatever the evolutionary processes that have brought us where we are, we have a responsibility to act as moral agents.

He grounds this in the fact that although genes always act in such a way as to maximise their chance of replicating themselves, the organism of which they are a part may in fact act altruistically, this being the way the genes optimise their chance of surviving. He gives four examples of this, two being well-known. One is how mammals can act with great altruism on behalf of their offspring. Another is the reciprocal benefits that flowers and bees bring to each other through the process of pollination. This co-operation increases the chances of the genes of each of them surviving.

In a more speculative way, Dawkins then builds on this in suggesting that as the sex instinct is not limited to reproduction but can find a broader focus in its contribution to culture, so this capacity to think of others is no longer confined to helping kin or forms of reciprocal altruism, but can find wider expressions. From a philosophical point of view, this is important in refuting the idea that as humans we will always be driven by considerations of narrow self-interest, that morality is unnatural to our evolutionary make-up. On the contrary, Dawkins shows that it is just as built-in for mammals such as ourselves to act in the interest of others. Morality is part of our nature.

Dawkins also draws on the work of Peter Singer and Marc Hauser who presented two moral dilemmas to a wide range of people. In the first, a railway truck careering out of control down a track is about to kill five people in the way. But the onlooker has the chance of pulling a lever and diverting the truck on to a siding where there is one person standing, who will inevitably be killed. Do you pull the lever? The vast majority of people of all ages, ethnic and cultural backgrounds said yes.

In the other dilemma, there is no lever or siding, but a bridge on which sits a very fat man. If this man is pushed and falls in front of the truck, it will be stopped and save five lives. The onlooker is too light to make any difference to the truck, so jumping himself would serve no good purpose. But he is strong enough to push the fat man off. Should he do it? The vast majority of people, again from every conceivable background, said no.

Peter Singer draws some conclusions from this that I do not want to do myself, but the important point is that people's moral judgments have far more in common than used to be thought. There was a time when people loved to emphasise the alleged differences between different societies and hence the relativity of all moral judgments. But it seems we all inhabit a moral realm which we can recognise as such.

This is no surprise to monotheists who believe that all of us, whatever we believe or do not believe, have been created in the image of God and this means we have an ability not only to think, but to have some insight into what is right and what is wrong. In its most philosophical form, it is a belief in natural law, and in its most advanced legal form, a belief in universal human rights.

Dostoevsky's Ivan Karamazov said: 'If God did not exist, everything would be permitted.' Sartre agreed. Dawkins disagrees. Morality belongs to us as human beings. I agree too. I do not believe that a society without a religious basis for its morality will always collapse. But I do think that the relationship between morality and religion is more complex than either Dawkins or religious believers usually allow. Take an analogy: someone hears a great piece of music and responds to it in itself. But someone else knows that the piece is part of a symphony and can be even more appreciated when heard as part of the whole in which it has a crucial place. As human beings we can recognise and respond to particular moral insights. But a religious believer claims to understand these as part of a much larger whole in which they have a vital place: in particular, there is a fount and origin of all our moral insights which is good, perfect good, all good, our true and everlasting good. For a Christian, this is above all shown in the willingness of God to enter the flux of history, to redeem it from within.

Religious people have been at fault in the past for slagging off moralities that did not have a faith basis. Today, it is the other way round, with religion being widely criticised for stopping people acting with moral maturity. But the crisis of moral values is such that we should simply recognise and rejoice in the good wherever it is to be found, while continuing to converse about whether it has its place in a larger scheme of things.

Commenting on the view that a society without religion will collapse, Dawkins writes: 'Perhaps naively, I have inclined towards a less cynical view of human nature than Ivan Karamazov. Do we really need policing - whether by God or each other - in order to stop us from behaving in a selfish and criminal manner? I dearly want to believe that I do not need such surveillance - and nor, dear reader, do you.'

But this overlooks a number of points. First, many people who have strong moral commitments without any religious foundation were shaped by parents or grandparents for whom morality and religion were fundamentally bound up. Moreover, many of those in the forefront of progressive political change, who have abandoned religion, have been driven by a humanism that has been essentially built up by our Christian heritage as Charles Taylor has recently brought out in his magisterial study, A Secular Age. How far are we living on moral capital?

Then, although I believe there is a shard of goodness in every human person, there is a dark side to our nature that it is sentimental to ignore, one which is still wreaking such terrible havoc. As WH Auden put it: 'We have to love our crooked neighbour with our crooked heart.' This points to the need for both self-knowledge and grace. At the beginning of this new year, with the world so stricken with growing inequality, corruption, decadence and conflict, each of us, believer and unbeliever alike, need all the help we can get.

· Richard Harries (Lord Harries of Pentregarth) was Bishop of Oxford. His book, The Re-enchantment of Morality: Wisdom for a Troubled World, is published by SPCK next month

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1. Comment #104925 by the great teapot on December 30, 2007 at 3:24 am

Dostoyevsky said if god doesn't exist everything is permitted and satre agrees.
Well 2 famous people have said it, so it must be true.
I would also like to ask Mr Ruse what exactly about stating that God does not exist and expecting to see some evidence for the claims of religion, just as we would for any other tall story, he finds embarrasing.

Other Comments by the great teapot

2. Comment #104926 by nickthelight on December 30, 2007 at 3:26 am

 avatarNice to see some Christian analysis. Can we have some Christian critisism of Lord Harries peers, such as the bishop of Carlyle?

Other Comments by nickthelight

3. Comment #104928 by Animavore on December 30, 2007 at 3:47 am

 avatar"someone hears a great piece of music and responds to it in itself."

Does this include Marilyn Manson, Slipknot, Cannible Corpse and Deicide I wonder? Also, how does responding to music prove a god? Even my freinds' dog responds to Hip Hop and I would presume other types too (unfortunetly my friend only listens to Hip Hop) If he really wants a 'heavenly' music experience I recommend going to a dance festival on XTC or listening to Jimi Hendrix on acid.

Other Comments by Animavore

4. Comment #104929 by UncleJJ on December 30, 2007 at 4:00 am

An interesting perspective by the Bishop. I have just one comment for now

[quote]
A Secular Age. How far are we living on moral capital?
[/quote]

He seems to assume that Christianity has somehow invented and given us something unique and irreplaceable in our morals. That is argueable; as most "christian morals" were borrowed from other religions and from the various Hellenistic philosophies that were prevalent in the Late Roman Empire when Christianity was invented. Even with the demise of Chritianity we have no reason to fear some moral collapse as the Bishop and D'Souza have suggested once the "moral capital" runs out. We are just as capable as the ancients were in modifying our morals to deal with social and technological changes and we will have the advantage of not being tied to a moral code in some Holy book which had been written for another age in human history and for a different society.

Other Comments by UncleJJ

5. Comment #104931 by Geoff on December 30, 2007 at 4:12 am

 avatarChristopher Hitchens said it best in his challenge:

"...name an ethical statement or action, made or performed by a person of faith, that could not have been made or performed by a nonbeliever."

Still no takers.

Other Comments by Geoff

6. Comment #104932 by scooternyc on December 30, 2007 at 4:20 am

 avatar"First, many people who have strong moral commitments without any religious foundation were shaped by parents or grandparents for whom morality and religion were fundamentally bound up. Moreover, many of those in the forefront of progressive political change, who have abandoned religion, have been driven by a humanism that has been essentially built up by our Christian heritage as Charles Taylor has recently brought out in his magisterial study, A Secular Age. How far are we living on moral capital?"

The author misses the point he made himself in the paragraph:

In spite of and sometimes because of religion, children and grandchildren and beyond have come to an understanding of reciprocity toward one another in society toward cooperation - seems like a good thing to me.

Further, the development of society over the millenia has shown that no need for religion still exists. While it may have been useful at one time as were thought many other ideas, it no longer is needed and now is only utilized as a weapon.

If in this day and age you can't find a good reason innately for not killing someone, being good to your neighbor, not stealing, etc. your problem isn't lacking religion, its lacking humanity toward your fellow citizens - this shows a greater psychological problem that even religion won't cure.

Either you are inherently a good person who would do good or you are not. No religion, no law, no threat will infuse this into you.

One can only capitalize that which already exists from within.

Other Comments by scooternyc

7. Comment #104933 by jaytee_555 on December 30, 2007 at 4:26 am

The Bishop seems to follow the logic of morality being derived from genes doing their best to survive into the next generation, but then cannot resist the temptation of adding a totally unjustified and unnecessary supernatural element.

It reminds me of the old story about a man who thought television worked because lots of little men lived inside the TV set. Someone took the trouble to educate him in electronics and showed him how television really worked. He thanked his teacher and said "Wonderful! I understand it now, thank you for explaining it all to me - but I still think there might be a couple of little men in there".

Other Comments by jaytee_555

8. Comment #104934 by PaulJ on December 30, 2007 at 4:44 am

 avatarIt's good to see religious commentators giving serious consideration to RD's theories for a change, rather than spouting the same old stuff we've seen before.

Nevertheless I think the bishop is wrong. He's saying that the 'human in-built morality' that RD talks about is there because humans are made in God's image, and that's why the morality is built in (because God put it there). He's got it the wrong way round. The morality that religious teaching claims it gets from scripture is already built in to humans by evolution, and scripture got it from there in the first place. (Scripture seems to have introduced a lot of distortion and extraneous stuff as well, but that's probably another discussion.)

Other Comments by PaulJ

9. Comment #104935 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 30, 2007 at 4:44 am

 avatarThis just keeps coming up doesn't it?

Several peer reviewed studies have now demonstrated that chimps show visible signs of distress when confronted with the mistreatment of other chimps. Dolphins have been seen helping injured companions to the surface to breath.

This clearly demonstrates that even lower order primates, and other mammals, are endowed with an innate capacity to empathise. They don't need the Bible, "God" or a transcendent chimp lawgiver to tell them that torture is wrong, and neither do you.

Besides, there is the old classic :

"Is what is moral commanded by God because it is moral, or is it moral because it is commanded by God? The first horn of the dilemma (i.e. that which is moral is commanded by God because it is moral) implies that morality is independent of God and, indeed, that God is bound by morality just as his creatures are. God then becomes little more than a passer-on of moral knowledge.

If you disagree that this is the case ... well then you get into all kinds of serious trouble.

Not convinced by the philosophical problems? Try this. Damage to the prefrontal cortex has been shown to alter moral decision making, suggesting a physical source of core morality.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/21/health/21cnd-brain.html?hp

The article is fairly recent, and joins a growing body of anthropology, neurology and phsycology that have begun to illuminate a completely naturalistic explanation for morality and altruisim, in a variety of mammals, not just humans. By banging on about the "irreducible complexity" of morality, theists are merely setting themselves up for an even harder fall when the process has been mapped and understood.

Finally, if anecdote is your thing, watch the clip below. For courage, heroism, leadership, cognition and empathy in bucketfuls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM

The capacity for empathy and compassion is hard wired into our brains and cultivated in a range of diverse directions through culture, while none the less, orbiting a common core. Thus as I never tire of saying (for it's shock value), it is quite acceptable to eat your grandmother in cultures where this a burial ritual, but rape and murder are always wrong.

There is a baseline, and it has primarily to do with consent, ingroup and impact on others. In brief the Golden Rule applied selectively to our ingroup and we simply make it up from there. However, the baseline is in our heads not in the transcendent ether.

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

10. Comment #104936 by phil rimmer on December 30, 2007 at 4:50 am

 avatarThe Bishop
Religious people have been at fault in the past for slagging off moralities that did not have a faith basis.

At the beginning of this new year, with the world so stricken with growing inequality, corruption, decadence and conflict, each of us, believer and unbeliever alike, need all the help we can get.


Again another sign that C of E moderates are seeking an accommodation with Atheism. They have rightly discerned that the issue of morality may actually be a key strength of ours.

Typical though that an appeal to moral decline is made, when the evidence shows the converse.

Scooternyc
One can only capitalize that which already exists from within.

As individuals, absolutely right. Our genetic bequest underpins everything.

Uncle JJ. Absolutely right. The morality of our socio-political systems (in the west at least) has its roots in the Axial Age (600BC ish).

Other Comments by phil rimmer

11. Comment #104937 by notsobad on December 30, 2007 at 4:50 am

 avatar

Yes, Prime Minister:

Jim Hacker: Is there anyone in the church who doesn't believe in God?
Sir Humphrey: Yes, most of the Bishops.
--
Sir Humphrey: The Church is looking for a candidate to maintain the balance.
Master of Baillie College: What balance?
Sir Humphrey: Between those that believe in God and those that don't.


Other Comments by notsobad

12. Comment #104940 by scooternyc on December 30, 2007 at 5:03 am

 avatarbriancoughlanworldcitizen - LOVED the video link, what an amazing thing to capture on film. Thanks for sharing it.

Cheers!
Scooter

Other Comments by scooternyc

13. Comment #104941 by phil rimmer on December 30, 2007 at 5:06 am

 avatarGreat video, Brian. Makes you proud to be a mammal.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

14. Comment #104943 by Acleron on December 30, 2007 at 5:13 am

RD draws on facts to provide an argument for innate morality. This is infinitely more convincing than the bishop who can only provide an analogy in music.

And while the bishop has brought up the subject, who's morality? There are no absolute and unchanging standards of morality. Just a kit which we evolve and hone as we mature as a society. Our morality suits the social environment we occupy. The religious have a real problem with this. Do they accept the morality in the bible, 'an eye for an eye' etc. or the later philosophy of 'turn the other cheek'. There is such conflicting advice in the bible, that they have to cherry pick. So is their brand of morality from god? Not really, it's just whatever list they think is correct at the time.

Other Comments by Acleron

15. Comment #104946 by Animavore on December 30, 2007 at 5:47 am

 avatarThat video is amazing briancoughlanworldcitizen. Just had to put it on my bebo.

Other Comments by Animavore

16. Comment #104948 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 30, 2007 at 6:03 am

 avatar 13. Comment #104941 by phil rimmer on December 30, 2007 at 5:06 am
Great video, Brian. Makes you proud to be a mammal.


Well ... almost. Those lions were mammals too. The mammals against the reptiles, now that would have been a coherent storyline worthy of the great Disney himself:-)

It is an amazing video though, talk about co-operation, empathy and courage!! Astounding.

Since we are on the subject of morality, I had coincidentally posted on the subject (making liberal use of our handy resources on the Dawkins site) here.

http://www.thechristianalert.org/index.php/2007/12/28/guilty-christians-companion-guilty-guilt?blog=5#comments

Feel free to pop in and contribute a polite 10 cents worth, I've taken to harrying these little pockets of godthink, and I suspect both I and my victims have learned a lot:-) Give it a try, but do be nice.

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

17. Comment #104953 by black wolf on December 30, 2007 at 6:34 am

 avatarGood comments over there, Brian. I think you're handling the discussion very well. I frequently engage in similar discussions (or comment slugfests). My impression is that most believers think that they have a firm understanding of philosophy, while actually they're simply using and often overstressing or distorting the rather narrow philosophy they've been educated to use.
Sometimes I find myself in the odd situation where a believer has a more detailed and broader knowledge of philosophy and throws around citations that imply that he's actually read it all (possibly if even he's getting them from some clever apologetic website or a single book). That puts me in a queasy situation where sometimes I know I could refute arguments from famous philosophers by using my common sense, but then it would feel inadequate if I don't respond in similar fashion. What to do? Read everything from Plato to Confucius to Kant and Popper, and hold the responses until that's done, or have a go just as I'm sitting here?
Actually I'm glad that's the way we're able to engage in discussions, because it's great use of our freedoms and fun too.

Other Comments by black wolf

18. Comment #104954 by Dr Benway on December 30, 2007 at 6:34 am

 avatarI find this article encouraging. Christian leaders usually argue that genuine brotherly love is impossible without Christ. Here Bishop Harries admits that most humans have the same moral feelings regardless of their religious beliefs. He describes God as a kind of intellectual framework that illuminates our understanding of morality. Contrast this with the traditional teaching, where God is the substance of the impulse to do good, like the Star Wars Force.

I'm less happy with the Bishop's suggestion that morality will erode as belief in Christ wanes. But this position is easily countered. Stable social bonds require reciprocal altruism, so we know that sharing and kindness existed for hundreds of thousands of years prior to any books of the Bible. More modern moral progress hasn't demonstrated any new flavors of goodness, but has largely been a project of expanding our sense of in-group boundaries, combined with a better understanding of how the world works.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

19. Comment #104955 by troyreynolds86 on December 30, 2007 at 6:36 am

I am impressed. A small step in the right direction.

But the Bishop, by implying that our (Atheist) morality is a social inheritance from our religious (Christian) heritage, doesn't even begin to explain how other forms of highly moral thought, such as Confucius, could be arrived at without the aid of that heritage that roots itself in divine commandments. Great moral pronouncements seem to come to us independent of heritage or divine association.

Secondly, it fails to address how and why large moral attitudes can change with time, especially for what we would call the better. Were the ancient Isrealites actually right in finding slavery to be a perfectly fine moral precept, or are we in our abhorance of it? It cannot be overlooked that when we define a lawgiver as good as an immutable precondition whatever law is then handed down becomes de facto good. Which would make fundamentalist Islamic psychopaths, who rape virgins so that they can be executed, supremely moral if their theology turns out to be right. Nothing is more akin to moral relativism than divine inspiration.

Thirdly, if the bulk of morality is programmed by genetics, completely hidden from personal introspection, what it would give the impression of is inherited cultural morality. So, considering our morality seems to be inheritable, doesn't it strike the Bishop as just as likely the source is genes as opposed to culture?

Well, progress, none the less. Baby steps must be taken before we are able to walk in a full gate.

Other Comments by troyreynolds86

20. Comment #104959 by black wolf on December 30, 2007 at 6:53 am

 avatarI think to actually observe how 'God's morality' looks in practice, we'd need to have an adequate comparison. So far we have only societies with different proportions of believers in different religious teachings, and the more religious ones don't look so good to me, in terms of social and domestic violence and other manifestations of immoral behavior. Believers like to point out the relatively high engagement in charity work going on in western societies, and thereby want to imply that it's our Christian cultural background that makes it so. My view is that that's simply so because of the relative wealth of our societies (meaning European or culturally stemming from Europe, like the Commonwealth and North America) where we can afford to be charitable without denigrating our personal and in-group economic position.

Other Comments by black wolf

21. Comment #104967 by Barbara on December 30, 2007 at 7:28 am

 avatarThis article seems to be a step in the right direction. Still, in short, Richard Harries is saying that atheists are capable of good morality but believers are more moral than nonbelievers.

:-|

Other Comments by Barbara

22. Comment #104972 by Matt7895 on December 30, 2007 at 8:07 am

 avatarI very much like and respect Lord Harries, but I disagree with his views that atheists ultimately get their morals through Christian heritage. That really doesn't explain how people living in Kuwait or Thailand can be moral, unless you go on to say all religions pass on moral teachings. Which is patently false... as he himself said! There is a real evolutionary advantage for moral actions. So why does he go and bring Christian heritage in at the end?

It may have been Christians who introduced the moral framework that British society is now built on, but that was in spite of their religion, not because of it.

Other Comments by Matt7895

23. Comment #104974 by epeeist on December 30, 2007 at 8:21 am

 avatarComment #104972 by Matt7895

I very much like and respect Lord Harries, but I disagree with his views that atheists ultimately get their morals through Christian heritage. That really doesn't explain how people living in Kuwait or Thailand can be moral, unless you go on to say all religions pass on moral teachings. Which is patently false.

If I can get my daily vitamin C from guavas, brussel sprouts, pineapples or broccoli then apart from personal preference and what happens to be in the shop at the time is there any reason to choose between them?

Other Comments by epeeist

24. Comment #104976 by prettygoodformonkeys on December 30, 2007 at 8:35 am

 avatar
For a Christian, this is above all shown in the willingness of God to enter the flux of history, to redeem it from within
So our morality comes from magic redemption. As bcwc outlines above (9. Comment #104935), animals also have morality. Jesus must have died for the animals as well! Except we were being redeemed from our animal nature, and the animals are still animals. They must have been very, very bad. Especially mosquitoes.

Other Comments by prettygoodformonkeys

25. Comment #104978 by Mokusatsu on December 30, 2007 at 8:59 am

"grandparents for whom morality and religion were fundamentally bound up"

My grandparents and great grandparents' generations were by today's standards a bunch of narrow minded racists and homophobes, among other things. They had a lot going for them, but in many ways if you go back a few generations you meet people who would be considered obnoxiously bigoted today.

In many ways we are a lot MORE moral today than any previous generation.

At any rate, what are Christian morals and ethics anyway?

Presumably one would answer that with some sort of reference to Jesus' sermon on the mount, but aside from that one sermon the rest of the bible including much of the new testiment is downright horrible.

The old testament says you're supposed to kill homosexuals, children who talk back, people who work on the sabbath, apostates, people who plant more than one type of crop in a field, people who wear shirts made from a blend of cotton and polyester, adulterers, people who blaspheme, people who marry a person from another race or faith etc.

i.e. the old testament recommends you become a serial killer.

If Christian morals are biblically based, then why do they tend not to follow the guidance of the old testament? Why do we just gloss over the nasty old testament stuff?

The reason is because we have developed a morality which is separate from the bible, a moral code which we can call on to make judgements of which parts of the bible we choose to follow, and which to ignore.

The moral code which we filter the bible with is not Christianity, because Christianity is supposedly based on the bible. This moral code is a secular moral code, and you'll find most of its tenets contained in almost every religion, fundamentally because societies tend to work better when we're not all killing, raping, pillaging and burning each other.

Other Comments by Mokusatsu

26. Comment #104981 by rafael184 on December 30, 2007 at 9:14 am

THE ATHEIST MENTAL DISORDER
http://scientistcanotcalculateearth.blogspot.com/

[deleted by admin. You can read the 11,000 word post at the link above]

Other Comments by rafael184

27. Comment #104982 by phil rimmer on December 30, 2007 at 9:19 am

 avatar
Well ... almost. Those lions were mammals too


The meat digesting enzymes in my gut and the bacon sandwich in my hand spoils the effect as well.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

28. Comment #104984 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 30, 2007 at 9:21 am

 avatar26. Comment #104981 by rafael184 on December 30, 2007 at 9:14 am

OK, that was spam. I read about two paragraphs and flagged it. Intolerant?

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

29. Comment #104985 by NormanDoering on December 30, 2007 at 9:22 am

... I disagree with his views that atheists ultimately get their morals through Christian heritage.

It's a half truth.

We do get a lot of our morals through culture, if we lived in a different culture we'd inherit their morals. If I was raised as a Spartan, I'd have a Spartan morality -- ready to die in war, thinking weak children should be thrown off a cliff... If I were raised as a Roman I probably would not object to gladiatorial combat for entertainment (hell, our athletes are killing themselves with steroids and growth hormones already just to get the money rewards of entertaining us).

As society gets more atheistic I would expect society to evolve a different morality. However, take a good look at where modern Christianity is going -- George Bush, lied into war, torture, ready to punish young girls and doctors for aborting babies, refusing to allow gays to marry, etc..

We might do better without religion in the realm of morality and eithics.

Other Comments by NormanDoering

30. Comment #104986 by prettygoodformonkeys on December 30, 2007 at 9:26 am

 avatar11,000 word post without making any sense. Tough to accomplish without religion.

Other Comments by prettygoodformonkeys

31. Comment #104988 by PrimeNumbers on December 30, 2007 at 9:28 am

 avatarThe simple answer is that if morals come from a higher authority, god is in trouble because there's no higher authority for him to receive morals from.

By any reasonable definition the god of the bible is amoral. He kills, is unjust, promotes hatred and is just plain nasty.

Other Comments by PrimeNumbers

32. Comment #104989 by phil rimmer on December 30, 2007 at 9:28 am

 avatarSpam flagged too. If rafael184 wants to submit specific arguments that we can reasonably discuss, that would be fine.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

33. Comment #104990 by AllanW on December 30, 2007 at 9:29 am

 avatarRe; comment #26

Yep Brian, I flagged as spam as well. Apart from the abysmal language construction, the ideas are merely incoherent and rambling. A collection of assertions, non sequiters, straw men and dissonant ejaculations.

Get rid, please Admin; it's a waste of our time.

Other Comments by AllanW

34. Comment #104992 by Double Bass Atheist on December 30, 2007 at 9:40 am

 avatarWith all due respect, rafael184, I do not see the relevance of your extremely lengthy post. You linked to the article at the beginning, no need to then include it in its entirety. However the entire diatribe was not really on-topic for this particular thread. Posting this to one of the forums and opening it up to discussion on its own thread is more appropriate. Of course, I do not mean to sound like I'm policing these things. I am just offering an opinion shared by many bloggers.
This is simply not the place for this rant.

Other Comments by Double Bass Atheist

35. Comment #104994 by jusdefacts on December 30, 2007 at 9:50 am

Yeah, definitely, echoing AllanW. Inarticulate, rambling jesusterrorist. Sad git, too.

Other Comments by jusdefacts

36. Comment #104998 by Matt7895 on December 30, 2007 at 9:54 am

 avatarCan an admin please delete that long post by rafael184? There's a big difference between contributing to the discussion by giving an opposing view, and spamming the discussion by posting creationist bullshit.

Other Comments by Matt7895

37. Comment #104999 by the great teapot on December 30, 2007 at 9:54 am

Not normally one to police anything, originating from Middlesbrough, I have also flagged 26 as spam.
What a fuck wit of a time waster.
Thanks for the video link Brian, it was the only thing I,ve seen worth watching this xmas.
Go Buffalos. Lions and crocs "you're shit and you know you are"
Sorry I forgot the kids XMAS lectures, always a worthy treat even if they are on five these days.

Other Comments by the great teapot

38. Comment #105000 by NormanDoering on December 30, 2007 at 10:02 am

I'd like to know how Bishop Harries deals with this example of Christian morality:
http://voxday.blogspot.com/2007/02/mailvox-sharpening-knives.html

Other Comments by NormanDoering

39. Comment #105001 by Dr Benway on December 30, 2007 at 10:04 am

 avatar
spambot: A policeman may personally witness an event, whereas a prosecutor obtains his information only indirectly.
The prosecutor may call the policeman to testify, but he cannot convey the policeman's testimony himself.

The hearsay rule causes your entire post to vanish, Mr. Prosecutor.

As a set-up for the inevitable special pleading, it's a nice try. Might work on the poorly educated.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

40. Comment #105003 by Roger Stanyard on December 30, 2007 at 10:14 am

The huge Rafael186 post is just a cross between spam and trolling. What the author appears to have done is cut and past together a hold load of drivel from different sources.

It appears that much of it was written around 1936.

Moreover, parts of it display an absolutely idiotic knowledge of the world -for example, where he suggests that Jews and Muslims have been fighting over Israel/Palestine for thousands of years.

Best to ignore it all unless he starts on the same game again. I suspect that the person behind it is someone in their early teens.







(one, apparently dating back to 1936) and suggest it is his own work.

The whole lot is incoherent drivel

Other Comments by Roger Stanyard

41. Comment #105005 by AllanW on December 30, 2007 at 10:19 am

 avatarNorman; that link you gave was probably the most frightening thing I've read in my life. The comments (very many of them) are almost a definition of delusional.

e.g. If God were to tell me to kill in such a way, there would be a reason for it. It would not be just for an act of faith. He doesn't understand this. There is a reason for all that God asks us, commands us to do. Atheists always apply the standards of mortal men to God's way of thinking.

e.g. Jefferson repeatedly demonstrates an ignorance of the Creator God based simply on his own hubris.

I note that he repeatedly postulates inane questions, that boil down to:

If God did something that was obviously completely and directly contradictory to His own nature, what would you think?

(I'd think the questioner doesn't have a clue.)

He does not understand the difference between the capricious, arbitrary nature of the false pagan gods, and the real One.

e.g. In Genesis 6, the world was full of violence.

God's soloution.....Kill most of them.

Nothing stops people from violence like killing all of them.

e.g. This is just another version of the Euthyphro's Dilemma.

See here for a Christian response to it.

http://www.str.org/site/News2?pa...Article& id=5236

The short of the long of it is that God would never command an evil act since it isn't in His character.

Thanks for the link, Norman. If anyone is ever unsure that we should, as a group, not be attacking the moderate, normal religious believer then bookmark and re-read these comments. They refer to a dilemma posed; If your god revealed to you in a set of flawless communications you could not dispute that you should kill every child you see under the age of 2, would you?

The answer in every case by the posters is 'yes'.
That's what's scary.

Other Comments by AllanW

42. Comment #105006 by Corylus on December 30, 2007 at 10:20 am

 avatarRe: Post 26.

Interesting. I have noticed again and again that those who quote Psalms 14.1 as some sort of killer knockdown argument generally have the reasoning skills of a squashed teabag.

OK correlation does not equal causation, but I really do wonder whether there is some sort of intellectual inferiority complex going on with these people.

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43. Comment #105010 by Logicel on December 30, 2007 at 10:30 am

 avatarBeing quite sated because of holiday eating, I was able to easily forego even eating a slice of Spam #26 (which I duly marked).

How far are we living on moral capital?
_______

This is a concern that seems to come largely from elder critics. In part, the elder folks feel that it is a duty to pass on religion-based morality because it has always been that way. They often demand studies to show that without religious mandates to be good, that society will not fall apart. In order to let go of habituated ways of teaching morality, they need some reassurance in order to accept different approaches. In addition, some of them are just anxious about what it means for their occupation of being religious teachers: their jobs will become obsolete perhaps in their lifetimes.

This interesting study (http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/2007/12/beliefs_about_intell.html) made me muse a bit. If students whose efforts and hard work are credited are able to do better than the students whose intelligence is praised, perhaps also it is not focusing on a so-called absolute morality which is the kind touted by religites that is important, but our emphasizing their efforts to be moral and showing the evolutionary evidence pointing to the moral basis. Of course, more studies are needed in this direction.

Other Comments by Logicel

44. Comment #105011 by ranman55 on December 30, 2007 at 10:30 am

Bishop Harries may concede that one can be moral
without God, but a lot of good that's going to do you in the long run, he seems to be saying, if you
don't recognize "the need for...grace," as he points out following his W.H. Auden quote about
loving your crooked neighbor. So we still need the big guy anyway, the god with the "willingness to enter into the flux of history, to redeem the world from within." What a selfless supreme being we have in a god so courageous as to join in the
earthly fray in order to save our pitiful species from itself. Ah, grace and redemption. Shudder to
think where the world might be without those old
spiritual chestnuts.

Other Comments by ranman55

45. Comment #105013 by Don_Quix on December 30, 2007 at 10:30 am

 avatarIsn't the "moral code" of the Christian bible remarkably similar to the moral codes of almost every civilization throughout history? Starting with the Sumerians and Egyptians thousands of years before the bible was written, and probably extending thousands of years into pre-history before them in one form or another?

This is not even to mention the Chinese, who likewise existed as a cohesive society many thousands of years before the bible was written, and had a very sophisticated and moral culture.

Morality does not come from any so-called holy book. Morality evolved from and continues to evolve within humanity itself.

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46. Comment #105017 by Dinah on December 30, 2007 at 10:47 am

'It is possible to be moral without God' – to which the obvious reply is, 'It is more than possible to be immoral with God.'

Many of the Christians I know as friends have no knowledge of, or interest in, the origins or history of their faith: they simply assume that Christianity is something to do with going to church on Sunday and being nice to one another. Even the more informed ones just pick the bits they like and ignore the rest. I'm afraid I tend not to mix with the nastier type of Christian.

While it may not be possible to disprove the existence of a god, there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of a 'good' one or one that intervenes in human affairs: these ideas are pure human invention and wishful thinking, whatever the dear old Bish thinks.

Other Comments by Dinah

47. Comment #105018 by oriole on December 30, 2007 at 10:48 am

While I generally share the criticisms made of the Bishop's arguments by my fellow atheists, I think it's important to point out that Bishop Harries is, to my knowledge, the first member of his "team" to construct an honest criticism of Dawkins's book. When you look at the sorry hodgepode of lies, misrepresentations, ad hominem attacks, irrelevant arguments, etc,. launched against Dawkins in the name of Christ, I think you have to regard the Bishop's mannerly, fair critique as a breath of fresh air.

As an example of what I am saying, consider the reprehensible manner in which John Cornwell deliberately misrepresents the careful distinction Dawkins draws between the views of Ivan Karamazov and Dostoevsky in his book, even though Dawkins takes such pains to make the distinction that no person of normal intelligence who is at least semi-literate could fail to appreciate it.

Contrast Cornwell with the Bishop, who, in this and other matters, is careful to paraphrase Dawkins's arguments with scrupulous accuracy before disagreeing with them. So I say, "Well done, Bishop! I disagree with you, but I am glad to finally find someone on your side of the debate who is capable of arguing honestly and fairly."

Other Comments by oriole

48. Comment #105026 by BicycleRepairMan on December 30, 2007 at 11:33 am

 avatar
ake an analogy: someone hears a great piece of music and responds to it in itself. But someone else knows that the piece is part of a symphony and can be even more appreciated when heard as part of the whole in which it has a crucial place. As human beings we can recognise and respond to particular moral insights. But a religious believer claims to understand these as part of a much larger whole in which they have a vital place


Perhaps you then should read another of Dawkins books, like the one you all but admit to having read only by title, The Selfish Gene, or better yet, the Ancestor's Tale or Unweaving the Rainbow, to see how all us humans are, in FACT, tiny pieces of music in the greatest symphony of all time, the wonderful real explanation for our origins.

Your narrow, sad, smallish, childish Christian mythology absolutely pales compared to the real world.

Other Comments by BicycleRepairMan

49. Comment #105027 by NormanDoering on December 30, 2007 at 11:44 am

rafael184 just won my award for most pathetic excuse for a human brain:
http://normdoering.blogspot.com/2007/12/pig-fucking-ignorant-blogger.html

Other Comments by NormanDoering

50. Comment #105029 by NormanDoering on December 30, 2007 at 12:01 pm

AllanW wrote:
See here for a Christian response to it.

http://www.str.org/site/News2?pa...Article& id=5236

The link doesn't work. Try again.

As for your summary:
The short of the long of it is that God would never command an evil act since it isn't in His character.

It says God would never command an evil act since it isn't in His character, but what about the things God is reported to have done? The Old Testament is full of slaughter ordered by God. Consider the example in Numbers 30 to 32, the slaughter of the Midianites. Is the Old Testament god a pagan god? And damning everyone who doesn't believe incredible and impossible stories in the New Testament doesn't seem all that moral either -- how could eternal torture ever be moral?

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