1. Comment #105125 by mdowe on December 30, 2007 at 4:13 pm

RIP Mr. Van Gogh.

As to the film ... it boggles the mind that people still live like this in our day and age. Plain and simple barbarism ... I can't put it in a kinder way.

Other Comments by mdowe

2. Comment #105127 by GoatBoy36 on December 30, 2007 at 4:25 pm

I wonder what Vinelectric will have to say about this.

Other Comments by GoatBoy36

3. Comment #105144 by brue68 on December 30, 2007 at 5:52 pm

thanks for posting, I hadn't gotten around to seeing it yet. it's a very depressing film, and as mdowe said, it is amazing that people still live this way.

Other Comments by brue68

4. Comment #105146 by liddlefeesh on December 30, 2007 at 5:58 pm

Is it the Stockholme syndrome or fear that keeps some muslim women living this way in the West?

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5. Comment #105167 by Riz on December 30, 2007 at 7:51 pm

Well, seems like muslims have found something new to be mad about:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/removal-of-the-pics-of-muhammad-from-wikipedia

(got this fwded from a popular muslim group)

Other Comments by Riz

6. Comment #105172 by robotaholic on December 30, 2007 at 7:59 pm

how could anyone respect a society that treats their women like that?- this movie is great so far-

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7. Comment #105177 by black wolf on December 30, 2007 at 8:14 pm

Riz, thanks for the link. It prompted me to look up if that nonsensical doctrine is actually existant, and I found this:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Muhammad/pictures.html
"# Contrary to what most Muslims think, no pictures of people or animals are allowed.
# If you would consistently follow Sharia Law in the hadiths, then get rid of all your pictures."

More evidence that Islam is not only misogynistic, but also anticultural in general.
No pictures -> no medicine, no anatomy, no zoology, no biology.

If Wikipedia succumbs to these idiots, it's one step further to global barbarism. And I mean pre-stone-age barbarism. Not even bronze age.

Other Comments by black wolf

8. Comment #105191 by theantitheist on December 30, 2007 at 8:54 pm

Well, seems like muslims have found something new to be mad about:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/removal-of-the-pics-of-muhammad-from-wikipedia

(got this fwded from a popular muslim group)

I checked out the petition, signed it and added my comment.

Thats' right please respect our wish that a picture of our beloved Mohammad, who was a rightous man (well apart from the incest, rape & killing etc. but ignore that lot) they should take it down or we should overreact and kill them. Mohammed is dead, long may he rot. Mohammed is dead, long may he rot. Mohammed is dead, long may he rot. Mohammed is dead, long may he rot. Mohammed is dead, long may he rot. Mohammed is dead, long may he rot. Mohammed is dead, long may he rot. Mohammed is dead, long may he rot. Mohammed is dead, long may he rot. Mohammed is dead, long may he rot. Mohammed is dead, long may he rot. Mohammed is dead, long may he rot.

It tend to overreact sometimes. But fuck it i like to prod these idiots for reactions sometimes. If he knew what the consequances would be of his actions 1400 years later do you think he'd have still done it??

Other Comments by theantitheist

9. Comment #105194 by xdrive on December 30, 2007 at 9:04 pm

Considering that wikipedia is not a Muslim organization, they don't have to follow the Muslim rule of no pictures of the prophet. Just like how it's illegal in Freemasonry for non-Freemasons to wear their ring. Well, if you're not a Freemason then the rules don't apply to you anyway. You can't create rules for people who aren't of your ilk.

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10. Comment #105198 by black wolf on December 30, 2007 at 9:22 pm

This is the comment I left in their petition:
"Allama Muhammad Munir (of Damascus) has clearly stated that the photos of the modern age fall under the category of pictures. He says: 'The words of the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) that every maker of the photo would be tormented on the Day of Resurrection, include every artist whether he makes pictures with the help of his hand (with pencil or with the help of colour paint) or with the help of camera.
Please remove all pictures, drawings, paintings and photographs of people and animals from Wikipedia, just as every follower of true Islam knows it is forbidden and will not make any or keep any at home or in his books."

Thanks for the great idea, theantitheist.
I guess we're going to hell. Oh, well.

Other Comments by black wolf

11. Comment #105201 by AtheistJon on December 30, 2007 at 9:38 pm

I used to live in Saudi Arabia, and my mother hated it there due to the restrictiveness. She couldn't drive, couldn't work, couldn't do anything almost, outside of our compound.

My Dad who speaks Arabic, told me that the Muslim women are supposed to greet their husbands at the door when they come home from work with 2 objects, a cane and a bucket of water. The bucket of water with which to wash his feet, and the cane for him to beat her with, while she is washing him.

I can only say one thing about this... Thank God I'm an Atheist!

Other Comments by AtheistJon

12. Comment #105205 by Spinoza on December 30, 2007 at 10:05 pm

AtheistJon, your dad was exaggerating about the bucket and cane.

The first paragraph is true though, and disgusting.

Other Comments by Spinoza

13. Comment #105252 by Vinelectric on December 31, 2007 at 2:14 am

Goatboy36

I see this has awaken your obsessions!

Other Comments by Vinelectric

14. Comment #105263 by GoatBoy36 on December 31, 2007 at 3:08 am

Vinelectric,

I don't have any: you're certainly not one; don't flatter yourself into thinking that you could possibly be anything more than well, a poster on a board I use sometimes. That's all you'll ever be. Obviously.

Getting back to the matter at hand: I wonder what you will have to say about the short film "Submission" which is at the top of this thread. (Given your earlier remarks. )

gb.

Other Comments by GoatBoy36

15. Comment #105267 by Diacanu on December 31, 2007 at 3:25 am

Nifty, but didn't tell me anything I didn't already know about Islam's vile attitude toward women.

And one would have to be living under a rock not to know that.

Other Comments by Diacanu

16. Comment #105279 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on December 31, 2007 at 4:25 am

I would appreciate some help here : http://wdtprs.com/blog/2007/12/bp-morlino-still-stepping-up-to-the-plate/

A fairly interesting discussion going that "dysolution" pointed me too. Weigh in one and all!!!

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

17. Comment #105287 by Vinelectric on December 31, 2007 at 5:03 am

Goatboy36

You're barking mad! Why would I think you could possibly be obsessed with me? I meant your obsession with Islam. You rarely post anywhere else and you go into hiding. As soon as something comes up on Islalm you're all over the place being all agitated and asking for trouble!

If you weren't asking for trouble why do you demand I comment on the film? Did we not have a bitter row over that a wee while ago? Did you not say to me once: "the film was shown once on Dutch TV, get over it" ?

But you can't get enough of your obsessions don't you?

Other Comments by Vinelectric

18. Comment #105292 by liddlefeesh on December 31, 2007 at 6:25 am

Riz,

Very interesting petition. I also didn't know about the hadith commandments to not have pictures - very interesting.

/rant: As a new poster here I might be speaking out of tune; but can we stick to topic? Personal gripes should really be kept person to person as they don't add anything to the discussion or the knowledge and devalue the content on this page.

Other Comments by liddlefeesh

19. Comment #105293 by Rtambree on December 31, 2007 at 6:27 am

14. Comment #105263 by GoatBoy36

>I don't have any: you're certainly not one; don't flatter yourself into thinking that you could possibly be anything more than well, a poster on a board I use sometimes. That's all you'll ever be. Obviously.

>Getting back to the matter at hand: I wonder what you will have to say

Methinks Goatboy36 doth protest too much! :)

It's okay, Goatboy36, you're allowed to have a crush on Vinelectric. We're all broadminded here.

Other Comments by Rtambree

20. Comment #105315 by Ian on December 31, 2007 at 8:42 am

I hope those of you who are saying you left a comment are joking.

The petition is to have the images removed, so you shouldn't be signing it if you want freedom of expression.

Other Comments by Ian

21. Comment #105329 by Cycik on December 31, 2007 at 9:24 am

Many times I am not sure how seriously on-line petitions are taken. I just looked at the petition. I thought this signer was particularly amusing:

Dec 31, 2007, Teddy Bear , Sudan
My owner named me Muhammad and she got in trouble for it. A lot of people in my area wanted her dead. Please remove the pictures or else the Islamofascist will kill these people.

I think someone on this site may have found a picture for a new avatar.

Other Comments by Cycik

22. Comment #105343 by rustylix on December 31, 2007 at 9:48 am

These women should make a mad dash to a country where raping family members is illegal.

Easier said than done. How can I help? I don't think my Prius will make it to Saudi Arabia, and It only has enough room for 3 passengers.

I say we set up our own petition titled "I prefer not to be raped by my uncle" or "Sex should be consensual".

Other Comments by rustylix

23. Comment #105348 by al-rawandi on December 31, 2007 at 9:59 am

I had a funny experience the other day.

A Muslim friend of mine has a facebook profile. There was a picture of her and her friends on it. One of the women wore the niqab (veil over face). I asked why she was even in the photo.

I pointed out that the Shafi'i school of shariah law posits a woman must cover her face. It also states that photos are forbidden. What a case of cognitive dissonance.

Not to mention the fact no one would (in 10 years) be like "Oh hey, there's fatima there in the niqab." They would say "Who the fuck is that?"

Other Comments by al-rawandi

24. Comment #105351 by rustylix on December 31, 2007 at 10:12 am

I hope those of you who are saying you left a comment are joking.

The petition is to have the images removed, so you shouldn't be signing it if you want freedom of expression.

Although I completely agree, I predict that no amount of signatures would ever successfully accomplish said goal.

Other Comments by rustylix

25. Comment #105392 by nogodsever on December 31, 2007 at 12:20 pm

They should remove the pictures immediately, and replace them with a picture of a sow's cunt.

Other Comments by nogodsever

26. Comment #105419 by kaiserkriss on December 31, 2007 at 1:45 pm

Getting back to the subject at hand: No matter the contents of a movie, even the subject movie, should be justification to go out and kill its producer. If you don't like the contents, don't watch it. Very Simple.

Even though Theo seems to have been a bit of a bigot, murdering him for his views and a movie is UNACCEPTABLE IN CIVILIZED SOCIETY.

I'm quite sure people who take offence to this movie, don't realize they are similarly offending other belief systems by taken such a violent and intolerant stance.

The respect of others the "religion of peace" these fascists supposedly espouse is in direct contradiction to their actions. The mullahs spreading this hatred are the Stalins and Hitlers of today.

After reading "Infidel", and having lived in the moslem world in the past, nothing done in the name of allah surprises me any more. The fact that men in many cases cannot control their base urges to wield power over women makes the whole sanctioned enslavement of women all the more disgusting.jcw

Other Comments by kaiserkriss

27. Comment #105423 by Corylus on December 31, 2007 at 2:12 pm

For info:

The script to Submission is written out in AHA's book The Caged Virgin.

A very interesting book.

Other Comments by Corylus

28. Comment #105431 by robotaholic on December 31, 2007 at 2:28 pm

theyre up to like 21,000 signatures- what a bunch of stupid idiots-

Other Comments by robotaholic

29. Comment #105458 by 82abhilash on December 31, 2007 at 5:02 pm

http://voi.org/books/uith/ch9.htm

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30. Comment #105604 by GoatBoy36 on January 1, 2008 at 7:44 am

Interesting reactions. And quite amusing. I notice that whenever RD or Hitchens are on TV interacting with theists we see the same old responses by theists to questions put by them: for example on the BBC programme recently Dawkins asked a believer what *he* would think if he died and found out that Baal was truly "God". Cue for the theist to do anything rather than actually address the question. Et cetera. We've all seen this time and again.

And now we have the delightfully entertaining Vinelectric acting as if he were a priest on FOX News. What a hoot! I can only repeat, I'm not obsessed with anything. This is a board dealing with, among other things, religous matters, and Vinelectric is a poster on it. He's commented on Ayaan Hirsi Ali's movie before now, and here's the movie. I wondered what he had to say about it, since it was the topic of the thread. That's straightforward enough.

I'm not "demanding" anything, and I'm certainly not "barking mad" or "obsessed" with anyone or anything, for wondering what someone who has voiced strong opinions on a particular movie before, thinks of that same movie, now that it has been included on this website. It's a reasonable question - as was Dawkin's question to that theist fellow btw.

The admin (Josh?) posted the movie at the top of the thread - is he obsessed? Richard Dawkins has his name at the top of this website - is he obsessed? Anyone who comments on this thread, or this website - are they obsessed? Hardly. The suggestion is absurd. (A companions in guilt move there.)

I notice that Vinelectric still won't tell us what he thinks of the movie though.

gb.

PS. As for the ridiculous "You don't comment here all that often" line, that's laughably immature. There's a thing called "work" you know. And a lot of other things that make up something that's called "real life". All of that is far more important - to me anyway - than the (very) part time hobby of posting on a little old message board. It's pretty sad that I have to point that out, but there it is anyway.

Other Comments by GoatBoy36

31. Comment #105607 by black wolf on January 1, 2008 at 7:59 am

Before I signed the petition with an informed comment on what is actually forbidden by Koran and Hadiths (any depiction of humans or animals), I was careful to observe that the petition's goal was to get 10,000 signatures. As it had long achieved that goal, dropping a little education in their midst was the best I could do.

Other Comments by black wolf

32. Comment #105957 by Dutchie on January 2, 2008 at 8:07 am

My petition comment was as follows:

"It's terrible, absolutely terrible, brothers and cattle (er, I mean sisters), that we have to put up with this. In fact, let's go even further and ban all medical imagery and diagrams of people and animals; after all, this is only going to affect any area of science that uses such principles: zoology, biology, medicine . . . but it doesn't matter if we live in the Stone Age; we've been doing that as it is, what with our oppression of women and gays (simply for having a private life) and insisting on special rules for ourselves while blowing people up at the same time. Mohammed, police be upon him, really is loving, isn't he?"

Made a fake address for obvious reasons.

Other Comments by Dutchie

33. Comment #105961 by al-rawandi on January 2, 2008 at 8:13 am

kaiserkriss,


Lay off the Stalin and Hitler nonsense. This is Zionist (I mean the psychotic religious bigotry know as Zionism) crap. The comparison of Bin Laden or Ahmedinejad to Hitler is a way of evoking the Holocaust to draw the US into military action. There is nothing about eith Hitler or Stalin that is embodied in either of those men.

Both of those guys suck, but you are way off the mark.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

34. Comment #105965 by al-rawandi on January 2, 2008 at 8:21 am

Dutchie,


As an apostate myself, fake names and addresses are a must.

I don't fear Muslims, but the chance that one of those whackos takes the hadith that says kill me serious is serious enough to warrant caution.

Delicate situation.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

35. Comment #106368 by dlitt on January 2, 2008 at 6:27 pm

That was the most heart-wrenching video I've seen in a long time.

Other Comments by dlitt

36. Comment #108137 by claudian on January 6, 2008 at 5:10 am

Islam is disgusting, a revolting belief system. The sooner it is dead the better.

curses on those who defend it.

Sorry quite angry going to have a beer now.

Other Comments by claudian

37. Comment #110810 by GoatBoy36 on January 12, 2008 at 4:30 pm

Daleadil,

A worst case scenario something like .... flying planes into buildings?

gb.

Other Comments by GoatBoy36

38. Comment #110829 by al-rawandi on January 12, 2008 at 9:00 pm

Goatboy36,



9/11 3,000 dead.


How many die each day in Africa from Starvation and preventible and treatable diseases?


Let's keep priorities straight. Religion sucks, but other things are bigger killers right now.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

39. Comment #110830 by al-rawandi on January 12, 2008 at 9:07 pm

Dalaedil,


Continue pursuing atheism. Islam is an intellectual and moral dead end. They are the least reasonable of the faith heads.

Read the Qur'an and Hadith with a critical eye, you will see the falsity. Also read "Kitab al-Zumurrud" by Ibn al-Rawandi (not my screen name but the early Mu'atazila apostate) if you read Arabic.

Steer clear of Ali. Harris doesn't know his ass from his elbow so reading him will only make you indignant.

Stick with Dawkins for science and Hitchens for rational arguments. Ali has too much emotion wound up and Harris seemed to have been having MDMA relapses when he wrote the portions on Islam.

If you are questioning Islam in favor of atheism, you will soon find yourself an atheist. Just follow the evidence and logic and you shall be delivered from the grips of Islam.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

40. Comment #110831 by Steve Zara on January 12, 2008 at 9:15 pm

Harris seemed to have been having MDMA relapses

I do wonder if we could stick to disagreeing with people's viewpoints, and not making ad-hominem attacks. And I am not sure "if you hold a different viewpoint from me, you must be on drugs" is a helpful thing to say.

I apologise if this sounds a bit critical, but I had really hoped we could try and maintain discussions at a better level than this.

Well, that is just my view. I am sure others will disagree.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

41. Comment #110834 by Diacanu on January 12, 2008 at 9:45 pm

al-rawandi-

What's your take on the Skeptics Annotated Koran?

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

Other Comments by Diacanu

42. Comment #110836 by Veronique on January 12, 2008 at 10:30 pm

I read Infidel. I t seems that like all other religions, Islam has a way of bending itself to any society's particular cultural imperative. Hirsi Ali describes the Muslims she met in The Netherlands coming from different cultures and countries.

She was shocked that other cultural Muslims weren't anything like the Somalis and the way Somalis practised Islam.

I would like to know from all the comments I have read over the months on this site, where the ex-Muslims who DO comment actually come from. I would also like to know where the negative Islam commenters come from and where they learned about Islam.

I suspect that there is an absolutely stupid Islam bashing and counter bashing going on in these threads. Come clean, all of you. From where did you get your knowledge and/or indoctrination of Islam????????

Let's pull this one down to the wire and start comparing apples with apples, instead of invective.

I have been on these threads since Dec.2006. I think it's time to get some sense about this. I am becoming somewhat tired of the teasers thrown out and those teasers being picked up and some sort of quasi BS pretend exchange that masquerades as well leavened argument.

Come on you guys
V

Other Comments by Veronique

43. Comment #110844 by Steve Zara on January 13, 2008 at 1:53 am

To Steve Zara: Blunt but genuine, methinks.

I don't think that is an excuse. Do we really want things reduced to the level of, say, Digg or YouTube?

Oh well.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

44. Comment #110845 by Corylus on January 13, 2008 at 2:02 am

Hi Daleadil

Nice to have you on here.

You might already know this, but there is a website (that is linked from here) run by ex-muslims.

http://apostatesofislam.com/index.htm

I found it an interesting read (I don't know what the ex-muslims on here think??)

In particular I found the deconversion stories that they told to be absolutely fascinating. It strikes me that there are some very brave people writing on there.

http://apostatesofislam.com/apostates.htm

Some of their stories might strike a chord.

Other Comments by Corylus

45. Comment #110848 by Richard Morgan on January 13, 2008 at 2:48 am

al-rawandi :

Just follow the evidence and logic and you shall be delivered from the grips of Islam.

This is one of the most stupid remarks I have ever read about the deconversion process. Why don't you just say that everybody (regardless of their religion) just needs to "follow the evidence and logic" and that will be the end of religion on Earth?
Religious belief is infinitely more complex than that Your simplistic, almost throw-away solution could even be dangerous if taken seriously, as many "just-do-this" solutions potentially can be.
Al-rawandi, I have come to expect better things from you.


Other Comments by Richard Morgan

46. Comment #110852 by phil rimmer on January 13, 2008 at 3:39 am

This is one of the most stupid remarks I have ever read about the deconversion process. Why don't you just say that everybody (regardless of their religion) just needs to "follow the evidence and logic

A little harsh, Richard.

al-rawandi was addressing a specific individual who appears to be eminently rational. Speaking of whom....

Daleadil, welcome. Its good to have your input.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

47. Comment #110858 by Steve Zara on January 13, 2008 at 4:28 am

Let's pull this one down to the wire and start comparing apples with apples, instead of invective.

Absolutely.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

48. Comment #110865 by Richard Morgan on January 13, 2008 at 4:57 am

Steve Zara :

A little harsh, Richard.

Perhaps...
But even when one is "addressing a specific individual", doing so on a public forum means that the message is intended to be read by many - or at least, could be read by many.
As you may have guessed, this whole subject is a very emotional one for me, and I have so often seen people plunged into even greater confusion by the "just do this..or that" kind of advice.
And saying "just follow the evidence and logic" does seem so...well, logical - and simple. But, as I said, the problem is much more complex.
And my over-harsh reaction was intended to reach out to those who are in the throes of this kind of angoisse existentielle, who believe they are following evidence and (a certain kind of logic) but still feel utterly confused. I suppose it's just my way of saying "We do understand how difficult it can be for you."
Al-rawandi - I knw you're a well-intentioned guy at heart. Believe it or not, so am I!

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

49. Comment #110874 by Steve Zara on January 13, 2008 at 5:38 am

Perhaps..

Wasn't me! I am actually with you on this. No matter how decent and thoughtful people may be at heart (and I am sure they are), there has been a tendency to occasionally post some wildly simplistic generalisations - more than just the one you have noted.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

50. Comment #110876 by phil rimmer on January 13, 2008 at 6:01 am

Perhaps

No, Richard. It was me.

I suppose it's just my way of saying "We do understand how difficult it can be for you."

Gottit. Its not the "evidence and logic" its the "just" preceding it.

Wow. Sorry, Steve. I wonder who else I can pass myself off as? Better get myself an avatar before I'm tempted.

Other Comments by phil rimmer