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Tuesday, January 1, 2008 | Science : Commentary | print version Print | Comments |

Document What have you changed your mind about? Why?

by Richard Dawkins

John Brockman's Edge site celebrates each New Year with a question, posed to a list of contributors. This year, the question is "What have you changed your mind about? Why?"
http://www.edge.org/q2008/q08_index.html
This essay is my answer to the question. The version posted on Edge is considerably shortened, to conform to the norms of the anthology. It also has a different title, the one used here being the generic title of the whole symposium.


When a politician changes his mind, he is a 'flip-flopper.' Politicians will do almost anything to disown the virtue — as some of us might see it — of flexibility. Margaret Thatcher said, "The lady is not for turning." Tony Blair said, "I don't have a reverse gear." Leading Democratic Presidential candidates, whose original decision to vote in favour of invading Iraq had been based on information believed in good faith but now known to be false, still stand by their earlier error for fear of the dread accusation: 'flip-flopper'. How very different is the world of science. Scientists actually gain kudos through changing their minds. If a scientist cannot come up with an example where he has changed his mind during his career, he feels the need to apologize. He is suspected of betraying the spirit of science. He is hidebound, rigid, inflexible, dogmatic! It is not really all that paradoxical, when you think about it, that prestige in politics and science should push in opposite directions. I'll take it no further than just to point it out, with a whiff of irony.

I have changed my mind, as it happens, about a highly paradoxical theory of prestige, in my own field of evolutionary biology. That theory is the Handicap Principle suggested by the Israeli zoologist Amotz Zahavi. I used to think it was nonsense, and I said so in my first book, The Selfish Gene. In the Second Edition I changed my mind, as the result of some brilliant theoretical modelling by my Oxford colleague Alan Grafen.

Zahavi's evolutionary theory of prestige was anticipated in the human sphere by the economist Thorstein Veblen. Anthropologists had drawn attention to 'Potlatch' ceremonies, whereby rival chieftains compete by means of conspicuous displays of ruinous generosity. You demonstrate your wealth and power by ostentatious donation or waste, culminating, in extreme cases, by setting fire to everything you possess. Veblen developed the idea in his concept of Conspicuous Consumption. Individuals consume goods not because they want them but in order to demonstrate status. Zahavi's version is evolutionary, and therefore assumed to be not consciously thought-out by its animal practitioners. But it comes to the same thing.

Zahavi originally proposed his Handicap Principle in the context of sexual advertisement by male animals to females. The long tail of a cock pheasant is a handicap. It endangers the male's own survival. Other theories of sexual selection reasoned - plausibly enough - that the long tail is favoured in spite of its being a handicap. Zahavi's maddeningly contrary suggestion was that females prefer long tailed males, not in spite of the handicap but precisely because of it. To use Zahavi's own preferred style of anthropomorphic whimsy, the male pheasant is saying to the female, "Look what a fine pheasant I must be, for I have survived in spite of lugging this incapacitating burden around behind me." For Zahavi, the handicap has to be a genuine one, authentically costly. A fake burden - the equivalent of the padded shoulder as counterfeit of physical strength - would be rumbled by the females. In Darwinian terms, natural selection would favour females who scorn padded males and choose instead males who demonstrate genuine physical strength in a costly, and therefore, unfakeable way. For Zahavi, cost is paramount. The male has to pay a genuine cost, or females would be selected to favour a rival male who does so.

Zahavi generalized his theory from sexual selection to all spheres in which animals communicate with one another. He himself studies Arabian Babblers, little brown birds of communal habit, who often 'altruistically' feed each other. Conventional 'selfish gene' theory would seek an explanation in terms of kin selection or reciprocation. Indeed, such explanations are usually right (I haven't changed my mind about that). But Zahavi noticed that the most generous babblers are the socially dominant individuals, and he interpreted this in handicap terms. Translating, as ever, from bird to human language, he put it into the mouth of a donor bird like this: "Look how superior I am to you, I can even afford to give you food." Similarly, some individuals act as 'sentinels', sitting conspicuously in a high tree and not feeding, watching for hawks and warning the rest of the flock who are therefore able to get on with feeding. Again eschewing kin selection and other manifestations of conventional selfish genery, Zahavi's explanation followed his own paradoxical logic: "Look what a great bird I am, I can afford to risk my life sitting high in a tree watching out for hawks, saving your miserable skins for you and allowing you to feed while I don't." What the sentinel pays out in personal cost he gains in social prestige, which translates into reproductive success. Natural selection favours conspicuous and costly generosity: favours handicaps because they are handicaps.

When Zahavi first explained the Handicap Principle to me, I voiced my scepticism with a reductio ad absurdum. Should we then expect, I demanded sarcastically, that natural selection will favour animals with only one leg and only one eye? Amotz's retort was witty enough, even then, to give me pause. "Some of our best generals," that former Israeli soldier reminded me, "have only one eye."

You can see why I was sceptical. It is all very well to pay a high cost to gain social prestige; maybe the raised prestige does indeed translate into Darwinian fitness; but the cost itself still has to be paid, and that will wipe out the fitness gain. Don't evade the issue by saying that the cost is only partial and will only partially wipe out the fitness gain. After all, won't a rival individual come along and out-compete you in the prestige stakes by paying a greater cost? And won't the cost therefore escalate until the point where it exactly wipes out the alleged fitness gain?

Verbal arguments of this kind can take us only so far. Mathematical models are needed, and various people supplied them, notably John Maynard Smith who concluded that Zahavi's idea, though interesting, just wouldn't work. Or, to be more precise, Maynard Smith couldn't find a mathematical model that led to the conclusion that Zahavi's theory might work. He left open the possibility that somebody else might come along later with a better model. That is exactly what Alan Grafen did, and now we all have to change our minds.

I translated Grafen's mathematical model back into words, in the Second Edition of The Selfish Gene (pp 309-313), and I shall not repeat myself here but will summarise the essence as a four stage argument. I'll use the convention that males are advertising to females, but it can be generalised to any cases where individuals are advertising to other individuals about anything.

1. Males really do vary in quality, and females really would benefit by choosing high quality males.

2. Each male is privy to some information about his own quality which is not directly available to anybody else. What is available to females is the advertisements that males choose to offer, which may or may not be truthful indications of their quality.

3. We can imagine all possible 'strategies' of advertisement that males might offer. For example one strategy might be complete honesty: perfect positive correlation between genuine quality and strength of advertisement. Another strategy might be the exact opposite: perfect dishonesty, or a negative correlation between quality and strength of advertisement. A third strategy might be a poker faced refusal to vouchsafe any information at all: zero correlation between quality and strength of advertisement. Mathematically, we can imagine all possible functions relating strength of advertisement to quality. Mathematically, we imagine a population of males adopting the full range of possible advertising strategies.

4. Females, exposed to male advertisements, also could adopt a wide range of strategies. One strategy might be total credulity: perfect positive correlation between strength of male advertisement and female preference. Another strategy might be the exact opposite: perfect negative correlation between strength of male advertisement and female preference. As with the male strategies, mathematically we imagine all possible functions relating strength of male advertisement to female responsiveness.

Grafen now set himself the task of discovering a pair of strategies, one male and one female, which were mutually stable, in Maynard Smith's sense of evolutionary stability ('ESS'). An evolutionarily stable male strategy is one such that, when all males adopt it, no male gains by doing anything different. An evolutionarily stable female strategy is one such that, when all females adopt it, no female gains by doing anything different. Grafen sought a pair of stable strategies, one stable within males and one stable within females, which remained stable in the presence of each other. He did indeed find such a mutual ESS and he was then able to examine its properties. They turned out to be thoroughly Zahavian! As follows:

1. At ESS, out of the whole range of possible display strategies, males will choose the honest strategy: correctly display your true quality, even if this betrays that your quality is poor.

2. At ESS, out of the whole range of credulity-incredulity strategies, females will chose the total credulity strategy: choose the male who advertises the highest quality.

3. At ESS, out of the full range of advertisements that males might choose, the advertisements that they actually will choose are costly. The advertising rule that is chosen at ESS is chosen precisely because it has the effect of lowering the fitness of the advertiser, all other things being equal.

4. At ESS, advertising is more costly to lower quality males. A given level of advertising strength damages a low quality male more than a high quality male. Low quality males incur a more serious risk from costly advertising than high quality males.

These ESS outcomes are full-bloodedly Zahavian. In a brilliant feat of theoretical biology, Alan Grafen has shown that we must all change our minds. I still find it quite worrying that we have to do so, because the idea seems so counter-intuitive. Of course Grafen has not shown that animal displays are always Zahavian. But he has shown that the main theoretical objection to the handicap principle was wrong. I should repeat, by the way, that my use of 'male' and 'female' was a convention for ease of exposition. You could go right through my explanation, substituting 'sentinel babbler' for male and 'feeding babbler' for female. Indeed, with a few adjustments to the explanation, you could go right back to humans and the advertising industry.

A word of caution, to end. Grafen's role in this story is of the utmost importance. Zahavi advanced a wildly paradoxical and implausible idea, which — as Grafen was able to show — eventually turned out to be right. We must not fall into the trap of thinking that therefore, the next time somebody comes up with a wildly paradoxical and implausible idea, that one too will turn out to be right. Most implausible ideas are implausible for a good reason. Zahavi eventually found his Grafen. Most proponents of wildly implausible ideas will not. Although I was wrong in my scepticism, and I have now changed my mind, I was still right to have been sceptical in the first place! We need our sceptics, and we need our Grafens to go to the trouble of proving them wrong.

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1. Comment #105597 by ksskidude on January 1, 2008 at 7:17 am

 avatarHappy New Year Everyone!!!!

Other Comments by ksskidude

2. Comment #105598 by The Smart Patrol on January 1, 2008 at 7:20 am

 avatarHere's to scepticism and Alan Grafen! And Prof. Dawkins. And everyone at richarddawkins.net!

Other Comments by The Smart Patrol

3. Comment #105599 by Styrer- on January 1, 2008 at 7:27 am

Absolutely fascinating. A nice way to start the year.

It could be an even nicer year all round if the superstitious supernaturalists have the courage to take a leaf from the Professor's book.

Best for 2008 to y'all,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

4. Comment #105605 by Richard Morgan on January 1, 2008 at 7:47 am

 avatarHappy new year to everyone and their uncle.
Special thanks and appreciation to Paula Kirby
(who, for me, has been the
Voice of reason in 2007),
Véronique,
BAEZ,
Dr Benway,
Steve Zara
and AllanW.

You have all helped me change my mind about many things.
I thank you most sincerely.

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

5. Comment #105609 by Fire1974 on January 1, 2008 at 8:05 am

I'm almost embarrassed to say that last night I was actually reading The Selfish Gene, in bed, at midnight! I finished Ch7 and started Ch8, actually. And the coincidences abound this morning finding this article. I'm almost inclined to think something spooky is going on...Oh right, that's just my mammalian, superstitious tendencies. Thank Goodness!

Other Comments by Fire1974

6. Comment #105610 by Matt H. on January 1, 2008 at 8:09 am

 avatarHappy New Year, Richard. I enjoyed reading that.

Other Comments by Matt H.

7. Comment #105611 by AllanW on January 1, 2008 at 8:17 am

 avatarHappy New Year to all.

Nice essay to ease us into 2008. Reminds me that the anecdote in TGD about the Professor who shook the hand of the visiting lecturer, thanked him for changing his mind and the audience applauded wildly is such a vividly written piece that it brings a lump to my throat just remembering it.

I echo the praise by Richard Morgan but include eppeist and Roger Stanyard. And wish Richard Morgan the best of the year and hope he continues to rub against the grain; we all need that quality from time to time. I know I appreciate someone who does it.

Other Comments by AllanW

8. Comment #105613 by John P on January 1, 2008 at 8:34 am

 avatarGood essay.

I see you probably put that last paragraph in there to discourage quote mining. I could see ID proponents saying "But Richard Dawkins says that you should be prepared to change your mind, no matter how 'wildly paradoxical and implausible' an idea may be. ID is wildly paradoxical and implausible, but if we keep teaching it to the kids in high school, eventually one of them may just come up with the mathematical model that changes our mind."

Or they could all just end up stupid.

Happy NEW Year, everyone!

http://spaninquis.wordpress.com/

Other Comments by John P

9. Comment #105614 by Spinoza on January 1, 2008 at 8:41 am

 avatarJohn, well sure they could try that, but we didn't teach kids Zahavi's Handicap Principle (I'm pretty sure they don't teach it now either) until it was proven...

And since ID isn't even a scientific theory, it's not scepticism, but blunt obviousness that allows us to rule it out.

Other Comments by Spinoza

10. Comment #105616 by phil rimmer on January 1, 2008 at 8:50 am

 avatarAllanW

Good extension to Richards list. (Roger's firing on all cylinders at present. Stonking!)

I'd like to add Diacanu, for the scalpal-like and creative use of invective. Such precise and well judged use of the f-word is a joy. 's cool too.

Spooky? At the moment I'm reading John Brockman's collection of Edge essays "What are you optimistic about?" I can recommend that too.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

11. Comment #105617 by gd_edi on January 1, 2008 at 8:51 am

Hmmm, why are females so complicated? :P

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12. Comment #105621 by phil rimmer on January 1, 2008 at 9:06 am

 avatargd_edi

Not complicated just high maintenance.

(The opinions expressed in this post are not necessarily the opinions of the author. Any similarity between the characters portrayed and those in real life are entirely unintentional, darling.)

Other Comments by phil rimmer

13. Comment #105623 by Paula Kirby on January 1, 2008 at 9:10 am

 avatargd_edi, phil rimmer

Huh! Most of the men I've been involved with have been a handicap in their own right :-)

Other Comments by Paula Kirby

14. Comment #105624 by Blake C. Stacey on January 1, 2008 at 9:12 am

I suspect there's more going on with altruism than we've figured out yet — that this sort of story will play out again with other mathematical models, particularly when we look at new situations where randomly varying replicators experience non-random survival. Who's to say what kind of selection predominates with memes, for example, or in neuron wiring or in the competition between clonal lineages of B lymphocytes? I have the gut feeling that our familiar experience with kin selection won't translate perfectly well, and we'll be needing new mathematical models — but that's just my gut doing the thinking.

Happy New Year, everybody!

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15. Comment #105627 by The_Stone on January 1, 2008 at 9:43 am

 avatarI changed my mind about Super Strings about 5 years ago, i know consider myself to be agnostic to this endeavor. It seems rather silly and religion-like to derive law of physics under the assumption of extra dimensions/extra universes. It does make the math easier to deal with, it does in its principles suggest a means of explaining gravitation, but they are unappealing presumptions since nobody has required them as yet. I would bet, when a GUT is formulated, it will be out of chaotic processes of the very small, and not derived from field theories. Instead those field theories will be derived from the application of quantum mechanical statistics to those chaotic processes.

Only time (or space) will tell
;-)

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16. Comment #105628 by phil rimmer on January 1, 2008 at 9:52 am

 avatarPaula,

Sussed again :-(

(Oh, why did I lie in that personal ad?)

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17. Comment #105629 by weavehole on January 1, 2008 at 9:53 am

Does this mean that if I go out and buy meself a flash car and Saville Row suit I'll be able to trick a female into loving me?

:0(

Happy New Year everyone!

Other Comments by weavehole

18. Comment #105630 by Roger Stanyard on January 1, 2008 at 9:57 am

 avatarIt's great to see to good Professor Dawkins apply his mind using economics.

I've been wondering for years how Thorsten Veblen, a stupendously ugly chap who was also a dangerous lefty with insecure job prospects, an economist, evilutionist and a European to boot, managed to become a world-class womaniser.

Clearly we now have a biological explanation and given that I share many of Veblen's shortcomings, there is clearly hope for me yet in having a colourful time passing on my genes.. ;-)

Other Comments by Roger Stanyard

19. Comment #105631 by Shaker on January 1, 2008 at 10:19 am

 avatar"Huh! Most of the men I've been involved with have been a handicap in their own right :-) "

Don't curse the apple because of one or two maggots, Paula ... you haven't found the right one yet ;-)

Other Comments by Shaker

20. Comment #105633 by Paula Kirby on January 1, 2008 at 10:42 am

 avatarShaker:
Oh blimey. OK, let me post it again:

[joke] Huh! Most of the men I've been involved with have been a handicap in their own right :-) [/joke]

Better now? :-)

Other Comments by Paula Kirby

21. Comment #105634 by LeroiJones on January 1, 2008 at 10:46 am

 avatarExcellent. There are a few other interesting ones briefly summarised in the Times worth reading.

Happy New Year :)

Other Comments by LeroiJones

22. Comment #105638 by kaiserkriss on January 1, 2008 at 11:21 am

 avatarHmmm, so what IS wrong with changing one's mind? I would suggest many on this forum have had a change of heart regarding their religious beliefs.

In my opinion, being dogmatic about certain things is being close minded and egocentric. To have the courage to admit to ones shortcomings by not always having to be right shows maturity, wisdom and a little humility.

Surely these characteristics in a person are infinitely more desirable than those of a politician or for that matter any other individual, who keeps making more and more stupid statements, just so as not to loose face, and having to admit to making a mistake. We are human after all, excuse the pun, not gods.jcw

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23. Comment #105643 by krisking on January 1, 2008 at 11:47 am

interesting that it appears to be the male of species that is the prettiest!

Wonder how that works with humans!

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24. Comment #105645 by krisking on January 1, 2008 at 11:48 am

In my opinion, being dogmatic about certain things is being close minded and egocentric. To have the courage to admit to ones shortcomings by not always having to be right shows maturity, wisdom and a little humility.



Absolutely right.

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25. Comment #105646 by krisking on January 1, 2008 at 11:54 am

interesting that it appears to be the male of species that is the prettiest!

Wonder how that works with humans!



That'll be why human females wear loads of make up and perfume and spends hours choosing clothes, while men can quite confidently put on a suit or a pair of jeans and feel happy!

Other Comments by krisking

26. Comment #105647 by Corylus on January 1, 2008 at 11:55 am

 avatarBrain hurts.

Does this mean I shouldn't date golfers??

---

Happy new year to Josh and RDnet staff who are busy putting up articles on New Years Day: appreciate the work at busy time of year :-)

Other Comments by Corylus

27. Comment #105650 by roach on January 1, 2008 at 12:22 pm

Cool article. But I've heard that no one gets to change his/her mind. It's more accurate to say that your mind is changed for you. Does anyone find this compelling?

Other Comments by roach

28. Comment #105652 by Paula Kirby on January 1, 2008 at 12:25 pm

 avatar
But I've heard that no one gets to change his/her mind. It's more accurate to say that your mind is changed for you. Does anyone find this compelling?
I'm not sure what you're suggesting, Roach. That it's not possible to "change your mind" for yourself, but that it always requires something external - someone persuading you to change your mind, for instance? Have I understood you correctly?

Other Comments by Paula Kirby

29. Comment #105653 by Goldenmane on January 1, 2008 at 12:31 pm

 avatar[QUOTE]In my opinion, being dogmatic about certain things is being close minded and egocentric. To have the courage to admit to ones shortcomings by not always having to be right shows maturity, wisdom and a little humility.[/QUOTE]

Funnily enough, I was in the middle of writing something about what it is to be an atheist, and dropped in to the site to look for apposite quotes. And here we are.

Happy new year, all.

Other Comments by Goldenmane

30. Comment #105654 by annabanana on January 1, 2008 at 12:32 pm

 avatarroach, don't be so sure. If your mind was changed for you simply upon new evidence, then everyone would *know* that evolution is a valid theory and their minds would have been changed long ago with regards to creationism.

Other Comments by annabanana

31. Comment #105655 by roach on January 1, 2008 at 12:39 pm

Paula,

Yes that is what I am suggesting. Am I wrong?

Other Comments by roach

32. Comment #105656 by steveroot on January 1, 2008 at 12:40 pm

 avatar
28. Comment #105650 by roach on January 1, 2008 at 12:22 pm
Cool article. But I've heard that no one gets to change his/her mind. It's more accurate to say that your mind is changed for you. Does anyone find this compelling?

That sounds like a clever way of saying that one's mind is changed "by" (as opposed to "in response to") outside influences (like *evidence*). I like to think that the mind (mine, at any rate) is changed by its owner. Maybe Dr. Benway will illuminate us here.
Steve

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33. Comment #105659 by roach on January 1, 2008 at 12:58 pm

annabanana, we're talking about different things. I think this will become quite clear in future posts. :)


Steveroot has summarized the position well. I also like to think that the mind is changed by its owner. However, some articles and books I've read seem to suggest otherwise and I find it distressing. I'm hoping people like Paula and the good Doctor will put my fears to rest. Not necessarily by destroying the argument I've presented but just by showing me that it's really nothing to worry about. Have at it.

Other Comments by roach

34. Comment #105660 by Paula Kirby on January 1, 2008 at 1:04 pm

 avatar
Yes that is what I am suggesting. Am I wrong?

Maybe not always, but I think you are sometimes. I've told this story before, so apologies for the repetition, but it's relevant to this question, I think.

One of my most vivid memories was the moment I recognised for sure that I didn't believe one of the lines in the Creed that I was reciting with everyone else in church one Sunday.

No one had been trying to de-convert me, and this was long before I'd read TGD or any of the other books on atheism. I just realised I didn't believe it. And on the basis of that, I went on the alert over the next few weeks to see what else I might be reciting/singing/saying amen to that I didn't actively believe. And I found quite a lot.

So at that point I sat down and thought through exactly what I DID believe. And then I thought through whether what I believed made sense - and it didn't.

At no point did I discuss it with anyone else or read up on it or anything of that kind. It was an argument with myself - which I like to think I won! :-)

Seriously, I am absolutely clear that this was me coming to the conclusion that my previous beliefs made no sense, and consequently rejecting them. No external influence involved whatsoever.

Wouldn't that seem to suggest that it is sometimes (at least) possible to make up our own minds?

Other Comments by Paula Kirby

35. Comment #105663 by roach on January 1, 2008 at 1:17 pm

Paula said: "Wouldn't that seem to suggest that it is sometimes (at least) possible to make up our own minds?"

Maybe but I'm not so sure. Why? Because the moment of clarity you experienced when reciting the Creed wasn't your conscious bidding. That doubtful thought just manifested itself spontaneously in your brain. So this idea that we are the thinkers of our thoughts seems to be untrue. And again, it's causing me worry. It's not too big of an issue though. I remember I used to stress out (just like Alvie Singer) because I learned that the universe is expanding at an ever incresing rate. I'm sure I'll be at peace with this potentially distressing possible truth. I just need more convo and info.

So apologies Paula. I was wrong to suggest that it is only external pressure that causes people's minds to change. It seems that that which causes your mind to change is always beyond your control though.

Other Comments by roach

36. Comment #105666 by Paula Kirby on January 1, 2008 at 1:26 pm

 avatar
Because the moment of clarity you experienced when reciting the Creed wasn't your conscious bidding. That doubtful thought just manifested itself spontaneously in your brain

But the decision that followed from it - to follow the line of thought, even to an unwished for conclusion, and to see it through by rejecting a belief that I no longer saw as tenable, was very much at my conscious bidding. I could easily have ignored it.

And anyway, just because the initial moment of clarity wasn't at my bidding doesn't mean that it was at someone else's. Uncontrolled isn't the same as controlled by someone else. That would worry me much more!

Other Comments by Paula Kirby

37. Comment #105667 by WithGoodReason on January 1, 2008 at 1:33 pm

What have I changed my mind about? Well, I used to be a heroin addict. Now I'm a methadone addict. (Cheers to those who recognize that quote.) :) Here's my real "what I changed my mind about" story:

Beginning in January 2007, I made a point of doing some "spiritual" reading at the end of each day. The first five books of the Bible, the writings of the saints, the Bhagavad-Gita, "Siddartha" by Herman Hesse - I read all of these and more. Some of them were quite interesting. Then, in August, I started ending my days with a certain book called "The God Delusion"....Strangely enough, I didn't feel the need to do any more "spiritual" reading once I finished it. :)

Being a newbie, I don't want to bore everyone to death with details. The long and short of it is this: I changed my mind about some things this year, and as a result I've left the Catholic Church. Witty rationalism has shown me that if you're looking to make sense of the world, it helps to begin with....well, SENSE.

Happy New Year everyone.

Other Comments by WithGoodReason

38. Comment #105671 by TonyA on January 1, 2008 at 1:49 pm

 avatarCheers to you, WithGoodReason! For one, I wouldn't be bored to learn more about how this process happened.

Other Comments by TonyA

39. Comment #105672 by phil rimmer on January 1, 2008 at 1:51 pm

 avatarWithGoodReason

Excellent moniker. Welcome and Happy New Year to you. Witty rationalism you'll find here aplenty, but probably not from me at the moment. (Found the remains of last nights champagne in the fridge.) So. Well. Cheers!

Other Comments by phil rimmer

40. Comment #105673 by AtheistJon on January 1, 2008 at 1:55 pm

 avatarI think there is a fallacy in the above discussion regarding politicians and changing their mind, i.e. flip-flops.

In politics, you aren't in the business of figuring things out or solving problems, the way that a scientist or engineer is.

I would agree that in human society, it is a noble thing to be able to admit it when you are wrong. But when it comes to politics, the job is to stand up for a set of principles that are not unambiguously correct the way scientific and engineering principles are. Take for instance abortion... is it unambiguously correct that abortion is moral? Immoral? How about raising taxes? Is there a position on taxes that is unambiguously correct? Or Iraq, for that matter, to take RD's example political issue. I would claim that there is no objective way to claim one way or the other on these issues, so when a politician makes a decision on this kind of issue, it shouldn't waver like a flag in the wind, because it means that the guy is a liar who will say anything to get the vote. Politics is really a sort of game, which everybody plays (whether you like it or not) because you have to make decisions on ambiguous questions.

Of course, there are rules to this game which most people understand, like if somebody cheats, than he is not to be trusted. I would say that changing your position on political positions is akin to cheating in this game.

In science and engineering, the questions over which somebody would change there mind are not decided by the outcome of games (or they shouldn't be, that is). Rather they are subject to objective and unambiguous standards of truth.

I was thinking that perhaps the difference in scientific inflexibility vs political inflexibility is reflected by the two words dogmatism and principle?

Dogmatism would apply to the inflexibility in a scientific context, whereas principles would apply to the game theory/politics context.

Two other words come to mind, also. Open-minded and hypocritical. In science, a flexible person is open-minded, whereas in politics, a flexible person is hypocritical.

Or is that all BS? I am willing to change my mind about the above issue, if somebody gives me a good reason why what I said is wrong.

Other Comments by AtheistJon

41. Comment #105674 by Roger Stanyard on January 1, 2008 at 1:56 pm

 avatarPhil Rimmer: you should be so lucky. I found the remains of the fridge in last night's champagne.

Other Comments by Roger Stanyard

42. Comment #105675 by Steve Zara on January 1, 2008 at 1:59 pm

 avatarWithGoodReason:
Being a newbie, I don't want to bore everyone to death with details.


Welcome! I, for one, would love to hear some details if you do fancy posting them. I would be interested to know if any particular argument in TGD did the trick.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

43. Comment #105676 by phil rimmer on January 1, 2008 at 2:04 pm

 avatar
I found the remains of the fridge in last night's champagne.


Some party! Respec.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

44. Comment #105682 by BAEOZ on January 1, 2008 at 2:16 pm

 avatarRichard Morgan
BAEZ

Who is the BAEZ? Sounds like an interloper stepping on my coat tails. He must be a clever cad too. He managed to change Richard Morgans mind. I think the only thing I'm managed is to reinforce his (Richard's) idea that my name and music should never be used in an positive sense. :)
Happy new year all! My brain is still in intensive care after I insulted it with 20 odd stubbies of Stella Artois. It was a very hot day, so refreshment was required.
I too would like to read WithGoodReason's story!

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45. Comment #105684 by AtheistJon on January 1, 2008 at 2:19 pm

 avatarBy the way, does anybody know the history of new years day? When and who decided that January 1st would be 10 (?) days after the winter soltice?

Wikipedia says this:
The ancient Roman calendar had only ten months and started the year on 1 March, which is still reflected in the names of some months which derive from Latin: September (seventh), October (eighth), November (ninth), December (tenth). Around 713 BC the months of January and February were added to the year, traditionally by the second king, Numa Pompilius, along with the leap month Intercalaris. The year used in dates was the consular year, which began on the day when consuls first entered office — fixed by law at 15 March in 222 BC[1], but this event was moved to 1 January in 153 BC. In 45 BC, Julius Caesar introduced the Julian calendar, dropping Intercalaris; however, 1 January continued to be the first day of the new year.


But it fails to mention why they picked Jan 1 to be where it is relative to the winter solstice.



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46. Comment #105686 by zdravko on January 1, 2008 at 2:21 pm

ID is an implausible idea, but if someone
presents a mathematical model that shows it can work,
then we should examine it seriously or else
we would b e dogmatic. Until then we are right
to consider it nonsense.
I do not see at all how "God did it" can be modeled mathematically. There is
no physical interaction that can be simulated
on a computer.

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47. Comment #105687 by BAEOZ on January 1, 2008 at 2:22 pm

 avatarAtheistJon. It probably has something to do with the Julian changes to the ancient Calendar and further Gregorian additions......
From Wikipedia....
January assumed that position beginning in 153 BC when the two consuls, for whom the years were named, began to be chosen on January 1. The reason for this shift of the new year into the dead of winter was to allow the new consuls to complete the elections and ceremonies upon becoming consuls, and still reach their respective consular armies by the start of the campaigning.

So, maybe the 1st of Jan was the Winter Solstice. But after Julian alterations it moved. They kept using that day instead of the winter soltice out of tradition?

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48. Comment #105688 by AtheistJon on January 1, 2008 at 2:42 pm

 avatarThanks BAEOZ. I didn't notice that part.

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49. Comment #105690 by _J_ on January 1, 2008 at 2:48 pm

 avatarWithGoodReason

Just want to join the others in saying welcome and expressing some interest in your tale. (Actually, perhaps it's worth an entry in the Converts' Corner bit of the site.)

I'd also like to applaud your stated method. It sounds like you made much more of an effort to read broadly across different religions (and non-religious attitudes) than I (with my personal history of swaying between Protestantism and scepticism) have ever managed. That sounds wholly laudable.

A friend of mine has just completed the first term of a theology degree. It's theology for the ministry - she'll be a vicar at the end. We had a conversation the other day, and I heard how challenging the whole thing was. My friend tells me they've really had the 'break you down to build you up' approach, and she is no longer even certain that she's really an Anglican. But, when pushed more widely on the whole issue of god, she refuses to question it, saying she doesn't think she could handle having that questioned. Debating the details is hard enough; Jesus has to remain as a fact.

I suppose this isn't a surprise for a course that plans to churn out a new Anglican minister (just like the army doesn't train recruits by asking them to question whether they really agree with their nation's foreign policy). She's already decided she wants to be a vicar, after all. But it nevertheless leaves me feeling rather sad and frustrated. This seems to be the biggest challenge to her faith she's ever had, but the fundamental notion of whether or not there is a god at all is left tactfully out. Surely all the effort she's going to over understanding His Word and knowing the details of the church is so much wasted time and angst if she never goes back to that big question?

You sound to have taken the effort to go about that question in a very reasonable, open-minded, enquiring way. I think that's brilliant.

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50. Comment #105691 by mdowe on January 1, 2008 at 3:04 pm

 avatarAnd now we wait for the headline in a creationist publication:

"Dawkins admits his theories on evolution were
wrong."

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