1. Comment #114502 by PrimeNumbers on January 22, 2008 at 10:33 am

Pat is so right, so true that he's ceasing to be funny :-) He's very funny, but his words are so serious he needs to be listened to.

We all know that if EU governments don't act now, they'll be replaced with right-wing nutters who won't solve the problem gently.

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2. Comment #114509 by GSP on January 22, 2008 at 10:44 am

"Modern Islam, if you'll pardon the expression..."

Classic!

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3. Comment #114512 by Bonzai on January 22, 2008 at 10:49 am

Good job. Unfortunately I don't know if any politician would be listening.

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4. Comment #114516 by al-rawandi on January 22, 2008 at 10:51 am

PrimeNumbers,


That is an interesting point. I can't say I disagree.


But I would like to mention, what should European countries have done about the Jews to prevent a Nazi platform that entailed expulsion, and later extermination.

Basically, what to do?

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5. Comment #114517 by Paula Kirby on January 22, 2008 at 10:55 am

Ouch. Only intermittently funny. But absolutely 100% on the nail.

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6. Comment #114527 by robotaholic on January 22, 2008 at 11:19 am

I don't know about you, but it seems less scary being invaded by Mexicans in USA than being invaded by Muslims in Europe.

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7. Comment #114532 by technogogo on January 22, 2008 at 11:25 am

Class, pure class. As always.

I do wonder if the forward projections about birthrates are genuine cause for concern in the longer term. I wonder if 2nd and 3rd generation muslims, raised in Europe, will care much for the more extreme variety of islam. Isn't there some evidence that these future generations will become more european? Of course this depends on us being able to prevent the creation of isolated and enclosed sections of muslims within Europe. That is something that deserve political focus.



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8. Comment #114535 by al-rawandi on January 22, 2008 at 11:28 am

robotaholic,


Mexicans are mostly Catholics.

I can't decide if I like Mexican or Indian food better.

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9. Comment #114536 by Jez on January 22, 2008 at 11:29 am

Just before you all go running around calling yourself 'islamaphobes'; remind yourself what a phobia is, words like 'irrational' and 'unrealistic' spring to mind, methinks there are better titles to use!

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10. Comment #114543 by The Smart Patrol on January 22, 2008 at 11:41 am

al-rawandi,

It wasn't the Jews the allies had to do something about, it was those irksome National Socialists. Our problem was that it seemed highly unlikely that the Germans could instigate yet another world war. How many bloody world wars can one little European country start, anyway? We sat on our hands and hoped Hitler didn't mean business. He did. We can't afford to do the same with so many Islamic fundamentalist nutters in just about every corner of Europe. We must resist their attempts at Islamification (is that a word?) or else we might find ourselves with fewer freedoms than we enjoy today. Islam and "freedom", as it is traditionally understood, do not go together. Just how we're going to combat this problem is a bit of a mystery, although I'm pretty sure that it doesn't involve European political leaders caving into hysterical demands from the Islamic community.

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11. Comment #114554 by Eventhorizon on January 22, 2008 at 12:02 pm

Islamophobia my eye! A phobia is an irrational fear, my fear is entirely rational.

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12. Comment #114555 by Paula Kirby on January 22, 2008 at 12:02 pm

technogogo: Isn't there some evidence that these future generations will become more european? Of course this depends on us being able to prevent the creation of isolated and enclosed sections of muslims within Europe.

So NOT isolating them in faith schools might be a good start?

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13. Comment #114561 by c4chaos on January 22, 2008 at 12:10 pm

reminds me of this classic speech by Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

http://www.nrc.nl/opinie/article215732.ece

~C

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14. Comment #114571 by al-rawandi on January 22, 2008 at 12:27 pm

The Smart Patrol,



I agree with your assessment of Islam and Islamicization. My question was, how do we (or you, Europeans) single out a minority, treat it as monolithic, and excise it from society.

If you read Mein Kampf you see one of the objections Hitler had to Jews was their refusal to assimilate. They maintained different standards, different clothing, and stayed in their own neighborhoods, while consolidating themselves in a few areas of business.

So I am not interested in why we should remove Islamicization, I know why and agree, I want to know HOW.

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15. Comment #114587 by lizaykpeeters on January 22, 2008 at 12:40 pm

I do wonder if the forward projections about birthrates are genuine cause for concern in the longer term. I wonder if 2nd and 3rd generation muslims, raised in Europe, will care much for the more extreme variety of islam. Isn't there some evidence that these future generations will become more european? Of course this depends on us being able to prevent the creation of isolated and enclosed sections of muslims within Europe. That is something that deserve political focus.

on the contrary technogogo, recent polls in Belgium show that the youngest (generally the third) generation of muslims are becoming considerably MORE dedicated to islam than their parents, probably in search of their lost identities. The young moslimas too are showing off their dedication to islam by explicitly covering their hair in public, much more so than let's say a generation or so ago.
And then there is a constant barrier to cultural integration under the form of young muslims consistently choosing a partner for matrimony from their ancestral country instead of from among fellow-immigrants, not to mention from among belgians....

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16. Comment #114595 by the great teapot on January 22, 2008 at 12:52 pm

I am all for islamification.

It sounds much better than that horrible islamicization.

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17. Comment #114597 by Goldy on January 22, 2008 at 12:53 pm

The 7/7 bombers were not new immigrants, but the children of immigrants. There is a cultural identity reinforcement going on because they can't (and/or won't) assimilate. Britain likes drinking and the pub is central to British culture...a bit like the mosque, I guess. If you don't drink, there's something amiss.
It must be hard being a different colour AND following a religion that is so totally antithetical to the society you chose to live in/were born into.
It's not a 1 way thing - both sides of European society have their part to play in this "problem"

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18. Comment #114610 by MelM on January 22, 2008 at 1:22 pm

See also Pat's: "O Dhimmi Canada"
This was added to YouTube Jan 19, 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUTFcgE1F7w

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19. Comment #114611 by LBraschi on January 22, 2008 at 1:22 pm

@al-rawandi,

Some jews in Europe did not want to assimilate, true, but they didn't try to impose their views on the rest of society.

Most (or at least many) jews were pretty much assimilated into mainstream european culture -you could find jews from all trades of life. Most jews identified themselves as german/french/polish/whatever first, and jewish second. A rich german jewish businessman and a poor polish jewish communist had little in common.

With islam, it is different. Most muslims feel themselves as muslim first, and french/german/whatever a distant second (if at all). Not only that, they would like to impose their views on the rest of us.

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20. Comment #114616 by dazzjazz on January 22, 2008 at 1:27 pm

I love listening to Pat Condell. As I live in Australia, some of his references to European events and statistics are lost on me. I'd love to see him take his rants a step further and provide some kind of footnotes. I know it's anal but I'm just wanting to learn!

Go Pat!

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21. Comment #114617 by al-rawandi on January 22, 2008 at 1:28 pm

LBraschi,


I accept that. The Jews did not try to impose Halacha on greater Europe. Then again, there were not that many Jews either, and even less that lived by Halacha.

There is the sense that Muslims believe themselves Muslims first, and German, or French second. That is a problem. The question is, what to do.

I have asked what to do 3 times and have received no replies as to "What to do". Violent expulsion, re-education camps, mandatory classes, denial of services until an allegiance is given?

I think once we look at the options, they are limited as to what wouldn't make us just like a totalitarian culture.

My guess is addressing religion early on in the educational system, and making education free and mandatory so that they get well over a decade of European culture and morals to at least compete with the Shariah mentality.

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22. Comment #114629 by Goldy on January 22, 2008 at 1:38 pm

There is the sense that Muslims believe themselves Muslims first, and German, or French second. That is a problem. The question is, what to do

In China, they are Chinese first, muslims second. Posters in mosques telling them to be patriotic Chinese as number 1 priority.
Mind you, China doesn't have the best record on human rights....
Indigenous imams, less racism, more acceptance of their religion (look at the fuss when a mosque is to be built. No fuss when a Catholic church is built, or a Ukrainian Orthodox church etc...as in Bradford), guidelines to follow that are not overly constrictive (muezzin to call using natural voice and within council guidelines) - the law of the land applied equally (no ignoring becasue they are not white and no cultural sensitivity - apply the law equally). Break down the barriers and soon they'll become one of us...mwahahahah! :-D
But seriously, make them feel at home and the 2nd generation will break down. After all, how many muslims in France, the UK, Germany, Austria are strict ones? How many agitators do we hear about?

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23. Comment #114642 by al-rawandi on January 22, 2008 at 1:50 pm

Goldy,


Good points. I like them. I think people complain about the Muslims, but don't fully understand what it would entail to 'excise' the problem.


One must make them feel "British" first. They must be entered into a compulsory education system, and this system must teach them the country's history, laws, and culture, both positive and negative. Science must also be a major portion, not like here in the US, where we skip it to a large degree.

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24. Comment #114645 by MelM on January 22, 2008 at 1:54 pm

"Spine" in the U.S.? Maybe; but then again, maybe not.

I haven't published this yet but I'm reminded of it now. This is from an email to me by one of those involved in last spring's "hate speech" flap surrounding a Pat Condell video. I had sent an email to this person (a public official in the U.S.) strongly objecting to his use of the term "racism".

I understand that race is not religion, but I think I
made my point clearly enough and believe the term
"racism" is being used more and more the way I did. As
to how that has happened, it is intuitive. It feels
like racism and ones natural response (at least mine,
and others I've heard use the word similarly) is that
the term applies.

I would think that even convinced nominalists would shudder at this.

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25. Comment #114646 by LBraschi on January 22, 2008 at 1:54 pm

The 'what to do' question isn't easy, and if I had a good answer to it I could run for office in my country.

What can we do? First of all, we should stop giving them so much media coverage whenever they feel so much mortaly offended about this or that. More important, politicians should know better than siding with the intolerants for the sake of 'multiculturalism'.

We should also ban any religious school, to avoid early labelling of children as members of any religion. Children should mix together in school regardless of the religous affiliation of their parents.

And regarding the truly vitriolic imams preaching against their adopted country, it's all OK until they actually start encouraging jihad, suicide bombings, the killings of jews-infidels-apostates-gays-women etc.

The sad fact of all of this is that it will take years to achieve a 'tame' islam -in the sense most christians are 'tame' in most of europe. But it is imperative that we succeed or die trying.

[Edit: corrected typo]

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26. Comment #114650 by Goldy on January 22, 2008 at 2:04 pm

And regarding the truly vitriolic imams preaching against their adopted country, it's all OK until they actually start encouraging jihad, suicide bombings, the killings of jews-infidels-apostates-gays-women etc

A handful of vitriolic imams. Indeed, less than a handful - a couple of outspoken ones and a bunch of gung-ho young hot heads who would have joined the BNP if they had been white.
Remember, all these accusations, and more, were levelled at teh Jews, at the Catholics (I still remember a guy I worked with in Aberdeen telling me he could always tell a Catholic by their appearance - they "looked" different), at teh Protestants, at the Christians, at the athiests...
The only thing that stands out is that they are/were "different" in some way. None of the Muslims I knew were that indoctrinated (but then, I guess the hard line ones didn't want to mix with the likes of me). Last one I worked with, a lass called Farideh, had left Iran because of her society's treatment of women. She was still a muslim in the UK but not blind to the failings (bit like my wife with Mao).
Can't judge everyone by the actions of a tiny minority - that is a very devisive action and does nothing to endear either side to each other.

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27. Comment #114651 by al-rawandi on January 22, 2008 at 2:05 pm

LBrashci,


Excellent. I agree, no religious schools. No gender segregation.

Right now when Muslims protest and say "I don't want my daughter to be in school with boys" we say "Then leave, because this is our culture and country, and that is how we do it."


Right now all the tolerance is one way. When western woman goes to a Muslim country (strict) she is expected to wear a hijab (fair enough, it's their country). But when a Muslim comes here, she demands (or husband maybe) to wear the Hijab, we should say, when we come to Saudi Arabia, we will dress accordingly, you must do the same, off with the Burqa.

If we must respect their culture, they must respect ours. People are afraid to say "If you don't like it leave." They do not have a "right" to be in a western country, they have the "privelege". They need to be reminded of that privelege. Thus the law of the land needs to be the law for all. "No hijabs, evolution will be taught, sexes will mix, alcohol and pork will be served, and if you don't like there is the fucking door.!"

That is my solution.

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28. Comment #114654 by IanG on January 22, 2008 at 2:12 pm

There is a true Prophet after all.

They just got the name wrong.

Can I call my Teddy Bear, "Pat Condell"?

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29. Comment #114658 by Steve Zara on January 22, 2008 at 2:21 pm

Right now when Muslims protest and say "I don't want my daughter to be in school with boys" we say "Then leave, because this is our culture and country, and that is how we do it."

I don't feel comfortable with that. Views should be argued as forcefully as you like, but in a democratic society, people are entitled to their views, unless they are encouraging hatred. And "this is our culture and our country" has been used to promote all kinds of views, such as slavery and homophobia...

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30. Comment #114659 by MelM on January 22, 2008 at 2:23 pm

Is the "New Atheism" getting anywhere on the continent? Less religion means less of a problem.

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31. Comment #114665 by al-rawandi on January 22, 2008 at 2:29 pm

Steve,


Why should we allow the segregation of the sexes in our schools? It is detremental to children, it is additionally costly, it is wrong. It encourages misconceptions of the opposite sex.

In my country I hope that our tolerance is enjoined on people. You are free to do as you please at home. But keep you religion in your home.

If Muslim men don't want to shake hands with women, fine. But none of that nonsense should be institutionalized or be allowed to be so.

I accpet tolerance of people and encourage tolerance of Muslims and their beliefs (those that don't harm or encourage to violence) but there needs to be a line. In America, men and women mix. End of story, don't expect to come over on a falafel boat and tell people what they can and can't do in their schools.

I am usually on the other end of this discussion. I did stop short of re-education camps.

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32. Comment #114670 by octopus on January 22, 2008 at 2:35 pm

I do not think nationalism is much better solution than religion.

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33. Comment #114672 by sindiosxfa on January 22, 2008 at 2:35 pm

6. Comment #114527 by robotaholic on January 22, 2008 at 11:19 am
I don't know about you, but it seems less scary being invaded by Mexicans in USA than being invaded by Muslims in Europe.

I just hate it when it is put this way. No parallels could be drawn between Muslims and Mexicans.
Yes, most people here in Mexico are catholic but there is a growing number of atheists, former Catholics who are fed up with religion.

As for the invasion well there is mc Donald's, burger king, kentucky fried chicken in every corner here, Microsoft, apple Inc. etc, etc, etc. and many US citizen coming to Mexico for the sole purpose of evangelizing the most uneducated and vulnerable. Scary?

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34. Comment #114673 by drcancerman on January 22, 2008 at 2:35 pm

al-rawandi ;

The solution is as clear as crystalline water, REFORM ISLAM, take out the parts which support islamic supremacy, those parts are as dangerous and bad as nazi supremacy belief. Let women have EQUAL rights as man, let them TAKE out that hijab, burqa and other stupidity that makes women INFERIOR and SUBMISSIVE; STOP with child sex and marriage! Teach what Mohammed was, a blood-thirsty crazy paedophile that on EXTREMELY rare occasions had the decency to say something good or write it in the quran. Teach them that islam is a political system, and that in a free world sharia law is not welcome in any way. Tackle, destroy or even combat extremists in their mists, protest and let people have freedom of speech! Let us ENJOY mocking the weird epileptic camel-goat-lover Mohammed. Even if the Quran gets to be as thick as a comic magazine, it doesn't matter...

REform islam! I understand that this might be difficult, but is the only way...

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35. Comment #114675 by drcancerman on January 22, 2008 at 2:36 pm

ps: I prefer Mexican food... sooo tasssttttyyyyy!! Damn it...now I want Tacos!

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36. Comment #114677 by Goldy on January 22, 2008 at 2:38 pm

don't expect to come over on a falafel boat and tell people what they can and can't do in their schools.

As long as there is a strict, across the board, separation between state apparatus and home I agree. They do it in France and Turkey (to use a "Christian" and a "Muslim" country). If you entrust your child to a state run facility, the state should control how things are.
While I agree with freedom of expression and all, there has to be a limit. As many people say, you can't impose your culture on another. Britain is still villified for this, decades after the last major bits of pink got wiped from the map...
I believe the expression "when in Rome..." is also used in China. As, incidently (this I know for sure) "All roads lead to Rome". I found that most interesting :-) (reference is my wife)

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37. Comment #114678 by Goldy on January 22, 2008 at 2:39 pm

I prefer Mexican food... sooo tasssttttyyyyy!!

Unbeliever!! Curry is king!

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38. Comment #114680 by al-rawandi on January 22, 2008 at 2:39 pm

drcancerman,


Unfortunately, as non-Muslims, reform of Islam is not our concern. Their religion is their business. My business is creating a society where people can believe what they wish, but people are treated equally, peace prevails, and govt. is as limited as is possible to maintain the preceding two things.

I can do that without reforming Islam. Reforming Muslims is the key. You can't change the Qur'an, you can change views of the Qur'an.

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39. Comment #114682 by Steve Zara on January 22, 2008 at 2:41 pm

Why should we allow the segregation of the sexes in our schools?

I am not saying anyone should. All I was saying is that it is (in my view) inappropriate to argue this by using the justification of "existing culture". All ideas have to be open to debate without such baggage, on both sides.

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40. Comment #114683 by al-rawandi on January 22, 2008 at 2:41 pm

Goldy,


Indian food is absolutely amazing. I love spicy food, so I do have an affinity for Mexican.


I went to a restaurant/pub the other night, half Irish pub, half Indian restaurant. I was in heaven (minus a few virgins).

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41. Comment #114684 by al-rawandi on January 22, 2008 at 2:42 pm

Steve,


Good point. I got a little carried away (see "falafel boat"). Sorry.

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42. Comment #114686 by drcancerman on January 22, 2008 at 2:45 pm

Unbeliever!! Curry is king!

INFIDEL!!! You will burn in the eternal fire of damnation! Convert now to Mexican food or suffer the consequences!



ps: Curry is ok, the problem is the aftermath! That is when my bricks are... in liquid style and punishing me for eating curry... Curry its like god, you enjoy it, but the aftermath is a nightmare!

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43. Comment #114687 by drcancerman on January 22, 2008 at 2:49 pm

Al-rawandi

The thing is, even though I do wish the same thing as you do, I see that islam or at least it's core teachings are and will be difficult to integrate in a free society, like water and oil, unless they follow only the good parts, but for that... Only reformation...

I try to be as optmistic as I can, but when I start reading what they do, and what quran preaches I kind of lose my hope in ever seeing a world like Star Trek

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44. Comment #114689 by Goldy on January 22, 2008 at 2:56 pm

Curry its like god, you enjoy it, but the aftermath is a nightmare!

Like a god, it has to be placated....hence beer ;-)
Having recently developed an ulcer, i know about the aftermath. down to kormas now - days of vindaloos are all but over :-(
Lucky for me, we have a good brew pub (Galbraith's, for when you make the move over here, al-rawandi) and a decent curry house opposite.

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45. Comment #114690 by Goldy on January 22, 2008 at 2:58 pm

I try to be as optmistic as I can, but when I start reading what they do, and what quran preaches I kind of lose my hope in ever seeing a world like Star Trek

It's a book. Many take the Bible literally too. It's all how people perceive the religion and its texts.

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46. Comment #114692 by walk on January 22, 2008 at 3:03 pm

al-rawandi,

What to do? Simple - - The New Inquisition!! ;-))

(Oops - I think I'm channeling Diacanu)

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47. Comment #114694 by dialector on January 22, 2008 at 3:06 pm

The Muslims are amazingly bold in Europe. Here in the US we have the opposite problem. If they get too much of a public voice they have to worry about their saftey. So they are very quiet. It is overwhelminly oppressive for them here. I like not having to worry about the imminent outbreak of sharia law. But on the other hand there places in the US where the local governments are practically a Christian theocracy.

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48. Comment #114696 by drcancerman on January 22, 2008 at 3:12 pm

It's a book. Many take the Bible literally too. It's all how people perceive the religion and its texts.

The only difference is that those crazy bible fanatics won't go as far as muslims will.

Other Comments by drcancerman

49. Comment #114698 by TonyA on January 22, 2008 at 3:15 pm

The solution is as clear as crystalline water, REFORM ISLAM, take out the parts which support islamic supremacy, those parts are as dangerous and bad as nazi supremacy belief. Let women have EQUAL rights as man, let them TAKE out that hijab, burqa and other stupidity that makes women INFERIOR and SUBMISSIVE; STOP with child sex and marriage! Teach what Mohammed was, a blood-thirsty crazy paedophile that on EXTREMELY rare occasions had the decency to say something good or write it in the quran. Teach them that islam is a political system, and that in a free world sharia law is not welcome in any way.

While it is a brilliant and desireable goal, this leaves almost nothing that the average insecure Muslim male needs from his religion.

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50. Comment #114717 by Goldy on January 22, 2008 at 3:58 pm

The only difference is that those crazy bible fanatics won't go as far as muslims will

Most people are under the impression the US president is one of those "crazy bible fanatics"...and many muslims reckon he's gone a bit further than flying a plane into a building....

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