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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 | Reason : Wingnut News | print version Print | Comments

Document Banned From Church

by Wall Street Journal

Thanks to Abhilash Nambiar for the link.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120061470848399079.html?mod=hpp_us_inside_today

Reviving an ancient practice, churches are exposing sinners and shunning those who won't repent.
By ALEXANDRA ALTER

On a quiet Sunday morning in June, as worshippers settled into the pews at Allen Baptist Church in southwestern Michigan, Pastor Jason Burrick grabbed his cellphone and dialed 911. When a dispatcher answered, the preacher said a former congregant was in the sanctuary. "And we need to, um, have her out A.S.A.P."

image descriptionHalf an hour later, 71-year-old Karolyn Caskey, a church member for nearly 50 years who had taught Sunday school and regularly donated 10% of her pension, was led out by a state trooper and a county sheriff's officer. One held her purse and Bible. The other put her in handcuffs. (Listen to the 911 call)

The charge was trespassing, but Mrs. Caskey's real offense, in her pastor's view, was spiritual. Several months earlier, when she had questioned his authority, he'd charged her with spreading "a spirit of cancer and discord" and expelled her from the congregation. "I've been shunned," she says.

Her story reflects a growing movement among some conservative Protestant pastors to bring back church discipline, an ancient practice in which suspected sinners are privately confronted and then publicly castigated and excommunicated if they refuse to repent. While many Christians find such practices outdated, pastors in large and small churches across the country are expelling members for offenses ranging from adultery and theft to gossiping, skipping service and criticizing church leaders.

The revival is part of a broader movement to restore churches to their traditional role as moral enforcers, Christian leaders say. Some say that contemporary churches have grown soft on sinners, citing the rise of suburban megachurches where pastors preach self-affirming messages rather than focusing on sin and redemption. Others point to a passage in the gospel of Matthew that says unrepentant sinners must be shunned.

Causing Disharmony

Watermark Community Church, a nondenominational church in Dallas that draws 4,000 people to services, requires members to sign a form stating they will submit to the "care and correction" of church elders. Last week, the pastor of a 6,000-member megachurch in Nashville, Tenn., threatened to expel 74 members for gossiping and causing disharmony unless they repented. The congregants had sued the pastor for access to the church's financial records.

First Baptist Church of Muscle Shoals, Ala., a 1,000-member congregation, expels five to seven members a year for "blatant, undeniable patterns of willful sin," which have included adultery, drunkenness and refusal to honor church elders. About 400 people have left the church over the years for what they view as an overly harsh persecution of sinners, Pastor Jeff Noblit says.

The process can be messy, says Al Jackson, pastor of Lakeview Baptist Church in Auburn, Ala., which began disciplining members in the 1990s. Once, when the congregation voted out an adulterer who refused to repent, an older woman was confused and thought the church had voted to send the man to hell.

image descriptionAmy Hitt, 43, a mortgage officer in Amissville, Va., was voted out of her Baptist congregation in 2004 for gossiping about her pastor's plans to buy a bigger house. Her ouster was especially hard on her twin sons, now 12 years old, who had made friends in the church, she says. "Some people have looked past it, but then there are others who haven't," says Ms. Hitt, who believes the episode cost her a seat on the school board last year; she lost by 42 votes.

Scholars estimate that 10% to 15% of Protestant evangelical churches practice church discipline -- about 14,000 to 21,000 U.S. congregations in total. Increasingly, clashes within churches are spilling into communities, splitting congregations and occasionally landing church leaders in court after congregants, who believed they were confessing in private, were publicly shamed.

In the past decade, more than two dozen lawsuits related to church discipline have been filed as congregants sue pastors for defamation, negligent counseling and emotional injury, according to the Religion Case Reporter, a legal-research database. Peggy Penley, a Fort Worth, Texas, woman whose pastor revealed her extramarital affair to the congregation after she confessed it in confidence, waged a six-year battle against the pastor, charging him with negligence. Last summer, the Texas Supreme Court dismissed her suit, ruling that the pastor was exercising his religious beliefs by publicizing the affair.

Courts have often refused to hear such cases on the grounds that churches are protected by the constitutional right to free religious exercise, but some have sided with alleged sinners. In 2003, a woman and her husband won a defamation suit against the Iowa Methodist conference and its superintendent after he publicly accused her of "spreading the spirit of Satan" because she gossiped about her pastor. A district court rejected the case, but the Iowa Supreme Court upheld the woman's appeal on the grounds that the letter labeling her a sinner was circulated beyond the church.

Advocates of shunning say it rarely leads to the public disclosure of a member's sin. "We're not the FBI; we're not sniffing around people's homes trying to find out some secret sin," says Don Singleton, pastor of Ridgeview Baptist Church in Talladega, Ala., who says the 50-member church has disciplined six members in his 2˝ years as pastor. "Ninety-nine percent of these cases never go that far."

When they do, it can be humiliating. A devout Christian and grandmother of three, Mrs. Caskey moves with a halting gait, due to two artificial knees and a double hip replacement. Friends and family describe her as a generous woman who helped pay the electricity bill for Allen Baptist, in Allen, Mich., when funds were low, gave the church $1,200 after she sold her van, and even cut the church's lawn on occasion. She has requested an engraved image of the church on her tombstone.

Gossip and Slander

Her expulsion came as a shock to some church members when, in August 2006, the pastor sent a letter to the congregation stating Mrs. Caskey and an older married couple, Patsy and Emmit Church, had been removed for taking "action against the church and your preacher." The pastor, Mr. Burrick, told congregants the three were guilty of gossip, slander and idolatry and should be shunned, according to several former church members.

"People couldn't believe it," says Janet Biggs, 53, a former church member who quit the congregation in protest.

The conflict had been brewing for months. Shortly after the church hired Mr. Burrick in 2005 to help revive the congregation, which had dwindled to 12 members, Mrs. Caskey asked him to appoint a board of deacons to help govern the church, a tradition outlined in the church's charter. Mr. Burrick said the congregation was too small to warrant deacons. Mrs. Caskey pressed the issue at the church's quarterly business meetings and began complaining that Mr. Burrick was not following the church's bylaws. "She's one of the nicest, kindest people I know," says friend and neighbor Robert Johnston, 69, a retired cabinet maker. "But she won't be pushed around."

In April 2006, Mrs. Caskey received a stern letter from Mr. Burrick. "This church will not tolerate this spirit of cancer and discord that you would like to spread," it said. Mrs. Caskey, along with Mr. and Mrs. Church, continued to insist that the pastor follow the church's constitution. In August, she received a letter from Mr. Burrick that said her failure to repent had led to her removal. It also said he would not write her a transfer letter enabling her to join another church, a requirement in many Baptist congregations, until she had "made things right here at Allen Baptist."

She went to Florida for the winter, and when she returned to Michigan last June, she drove the two miles to Allen Baptist as usual. A church member asked her to leave, saying she was not welcome, but Mrs. Caskey told him she had come to worship and asked if they could speak after the service. Twenty minutes into the service, a sheriff's officer was at her side, and an hour later, she was in jail.

"It was very humiliating," says Mrs. Caskey, who worked for the state of Michigan for 25 years before retiring from the Department of Corrections in 1992. "The other prisoners were surprised to see a little old lady in her church clothes. One of them said, 'You robbed a church?' and I said, 'No, I just attended church.' "

Word quickly spread throughout Allen, a close-knit town of about 200 residents. Once a thriving community of farmers and factory workers, Allen consists of little more than a strip of dusty antiques stores. Mr. and Mrs. Church, both in their 70s, eventually joined another Baptist congregation nearby.

About 25 people stopped attending Allen Baptist Church after Mrs. Caskey was shunned, according to several former church members.

Current members say they support the pastor's actions, and they note that the congregation has grown under his leadership. The simple, white-washed building now draws around 70 people on Sunday mornings, many of them young families. "He's a very good leader; he has total respect for the people," says Stephen Johnson, 66, an auto parts inspector, who added that Mr. Burrick was right to remove Mrs. Caskey because "the Bible says causing discord in the church is an abomination."

Mrs. Caskey went back to the church about a month after her arrest, shortly after the county prosecutor threw out the trespassing charge. More than a dozen supporters gathered outside, some with signs that read "What Would Jesus Do?" She sat in the front row as Mr. Burrick preached about "infidels in the pews," according to reports from those present.

Once again, Mrs. Caskey was escorted out by a state trooper and taken to jail, where she posted the $62 bail and was released. After that, the county prosecutor dismissed the charge and told county law enforcement not to arrest her again unless she was creating a disturbance.

In the following weeks, Mrs. Caskey continued to worship at Allen Baptist. Some congregants no longer spoke to her or passed the offering plate, and some changed seats if she sat next to them, she says.

Mr. Burrick repeatedly declined to comment on Mrs. Caskey's case, calling it a "private ecclesiastical matter." He did say that while the church does not "blacklist" anyone, a strict reading of the Bible requires pastors to punish disobedient members. "A lot of times, flocks aren't willing to submit or be obedient to God," he said in an interview before a Sunday evening service. "If somebody is not willing to be helped, they forfeit their membership."

In Christianity's early centuries, church discipline led sinners to cover themselves with ashes or spend time in the stocks. In later centuries, expulsion was more common. Until the late 19th century, shunning was widely practiced by American evangelicals, including Methodists, Presbyterians and Baptists. Today, excommunication rarely occurs in the U.S. Catholic Church, and shunning is largely unheard of among mainline Protestants.

Little Consensus

Among churches that practice discipline, there is little consensus on how sinners should be dealt with, says Gregory Wills, a theologian at Southern Baptist Theological seminary. Some pastors remove members on their own, while other churches require agreement among deacons or a majority vote from the congregation.

Since Mrs. Caskey's second arrest last July, the turmoil at Allen Baptist has fizzled into an awkward stalemate. Allen Baptist is an independent congregation, unaffiliated with a church hierarchy that might review the ouster. Supporters have urged Mrs. Caskey to sue to have her membership restored, but she says the matter should be settled in the church. Mr. Burrick no longer calls the police when Mrs. Caskey shows up for Sunday services.

Since November, Mrs. Caskey has been attending a Baptist church near her winter home in Tavares, Fla. She plans to go back to Allen Baptist when she returns to Michigan this spring.

"I don't intend to abandon that church," Mrs. Caskey says. "I feel like I have every right to be there."

Write to Alexandra Alter at alexandra.alter@wsj.com

Comments 1 - 50 of 56 |

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1. Comment #115004 by Lana on January 23, 2008 at 12:16 pm

That makes no sense from a marketing standpoint. The church had been down to 12 members and it's kicking people out? And people who contribute 10% of their income?

It would be nice if this experience would make Mrs. Caskey realize it's all a crock.

Other Comments by Lana

2. Comment #115007 by Colwyn Abernathy on January 23, 2008 at 12:19 pm

 avatarNo, it doesn't make sense from a marketing point. But look at it this way, the more they expel, the more we can introduce to the spiritual freedom of godlessness! :)

Other Comments by Colwyn Abernathy

3. Comment #115014 by PJG on January 23, 2008 at 12:27 pm

 avatar"Love thy neighbour"

I'm learning more every day - this is evidently yet another one where conditions apply!

In fact - maybe we could have a list:

"Jesus loves you"
"God loves you"
"Thou shalt not kill"
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman..." (unless the male is a minor and the Bishop is prepared to keep quiet)

The list just goes on and on!

Other Comments by PJG

4. Comment #115016 by irate_atheist on January 23, 2008 at 12:28 pm

 avatar1. Comment #115004 by Lana -
It would be nice if this experience would make Mrs. Caskey realize it's all a crock.
I doubt it will, however. After all, with her statement that:
"I don't intend to abandon that church," Mrs. Caskey says. "I feel like I have every right to be there."
She shows herself to be a true idiot believer.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

5. Comment #115018 by Deepthought on January 23, 2008 at 12:34 pm

 avatar
Thou shalt not kill


I brought this up with a "biblical literalist" because he supports war and he says that it is "Thou shalt not murder"
I wonder how this changes matters and what translation he is looking at?

Other Comments by Deepthought

6. Comment #115019 by Lithium_joe on January 23, 2008 at 12:34 pm

 avatarHilarious.

The perverseness of the religious mindset never ceases to confound my expectations.

Other Comments by Lithium_joe

7. Comment #115027 by Paula Kirby on January 23, 2008 at 12:41 pm

 avatarI used to know someone in the UK who belonged to a pentecostal house church that exercised this kind of "discipline" over members who showed lapses in righteousness. But she explained that it was all ok because such expulsions were always carried out in a spirit of love.

Other Comments by Paula Kirby

8. Comment #115031 by notsobad on January 23, 2008 at 12:46 pm

 avatarStupid is as stupid does .. and so on

Other Comments by notsobad

9. Comment #115035 by home8896 on January 23, 2008 at 12:51 pm

 avatarAlright, I couldn't read the whole thing. I came across two of their examples and both lead back to people wanting to know something about the financial records, and getting expelled and called gossips for doing so. What a neat way to keep people from looking too deeply into an organization when corruption may be at hand. There was a case nearby, in recent years, of a pastor getting arrested for fraud within his large church. I suppose losing 74 members out of thousands is nothing in comparison to being caught out on fraud.

Other Comments by home8896

10. Comment #115036 by Prankster on January 23, 2008 at 12:52 pm

 avatarLet me get this straight yeah?

A frail old woman is berated shunned and finally arrested or escorted off the premises by the strong arm of the Law-isn't it nice to see the Kirk returning to traditional fire and brimstone values
Maybe if I was in her shoes I'd consider asking for my yearly 10% pension donation back and then sue them for it if there's no refund forthcoming

Fucking religion makes me puke. I really hope that it goes the way of the dinosaur and passes quickly into extinction...........

Other Comments by Prankster

11. Comment #115037 by Verylee on January 23, 2008 at 12:53 pm

 avatar"Not our religion...Oh No!! We don't condone exorcism, shunning, genital mutilation, homophobia, etc etc...Jesus loves you...Allelujiah...Praise the Lord!"

Other Comments by Verylee

12. Comment #115042 by Prankster on January 23, 2008 at 12:59 pm

 avatarWhy didn't they just put her in sackcloth and ashes give her a bell to ring and let her shout "unclean unclean" outside the church seeing as she's now a social leper-or was that her next punishment?....Jesus loves you...allelujiah..praise the lord and pass the offering plate..

Other Comments by Prankster

13. Comment #115049 by jdb on January 23, 2008 at 1:18 pm

 avatar"We're not the FBI; we're not sniffing around people's homes trying to find out some secret sin," ... "Ninety-nine percent of these cases never go that far."

So 1% of the time you do have to go sniffing around? I think this is an admission of breaking and entering.

Other Comments by jdb

14. Comment #115054 by jdb on January 23, 2008 at 1:22 pm

 avatar"he would not write her a transfer letter enabling her to join another church, a requirement in many Baptist congregations"

Could you imagine if we did that?

"Prof. Dawkins would not write her a transfer letter enabling her to read postings on Sam Harris's website, a requirement for many Atheist websites."

Other Comments by jdb

15. Comment #115069 by shemp333 on January 23, 2008 at 1:40 pm

 avatarI've been kicked out of heaven... and hell won't take me for fears I may take over. Now what!

Other Comments by shemp333

16. Comment #115070 by ksskidude on January 23, 2008 at 1:40 pm

 avatarIt doesn't surprise me anymore when I read article's like this. A christian can find justification for just about anything they do. Because it's in the bible.

I am glad however that the woman stuck to her guns and stood up for what she felt was right. This pastor sounded like a 25 year old weasel, fresh from the seminary, and drunk on power.

Other Comments by ksskidude

17. Comment #115073 by brian_d_w on January 23, 2008 at 1:46 pm

Fantastic! All this kind of behavior will do is weaken the church going community. Keep up the good work guys.

Other Comments by brian_d_w

18. Comment #115075 by scottishgeologist on January 23, 2008 at 1:49 pm

 avatarOh boy, we are heading back to the 18th century here! There used to be a tradition in Scotland of the "cutty stool" of repentance. "Sinners" usually of the sexual variety had to sit in this in front of the congregation and get harangued by the minister.

Info on the cuttie stool here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuttie-stool

And...
Great cartoon of it here:

http://www.stooryduster.co.uk/pages07/cutty_stool.htm

Ahhhh, the unalloyed joy of 18th century Calvinism...

Cheers!

SG

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

19. Comment #115081 by Double Bass Atheist on January 23, 2008 at 2:09 pm

 avatarFrom the article…
Others point to a passage in the gospel of Matthew that says unrepentant sinners must be shunned.

What about the passage in Exodus that anyone who works on the Sabbath should be put to death?
What about the passage in Deuteronomy that rebellious sons should be put to death?
What about the passage in Leviticus that both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death?
…and on and on…

The level of cherry-picking that these people do never ceases to amaze me.

Other Comments by Double Bass Atheist

20. Comment #115084 by PJG on January 23, 2008 at 2:14 pm

 avatar
Thou shalt not kill



I brought this up with a "biblical literalist" because he supports war and he says that it is "Thou shalt not murder"
I wonder how this changes matters and what translation he is looking at?


Oh, what bollocks! God has got a crap vocabulary. The number of times humans have to explain what he "really" means because he hasn't used the correct words..... God clearly needs a decent education!

Other Comments by PJG

21. Comment #115085 by al-rawandi on January 23, 2008 at 2:17 pm

 avatarPJG,


Maybe a Thesaurus.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

22. Comment #115090 by theantitheist on January 23, 2008 at 2:31 pm

I think this clearly demonstrates that Atheists have more morals then the religious. If a little old women gave me 10% of her earnings and sold her car for me, oh and paid my electricity bill when i was a bit strapped, i would always let her sit on a hard bench and listen to what ever crap she liked be it Terry Wogan or Pope John Paul Ringo George III, let her gossip away and feel smug in herself with no harrasement what so ever. I suppose i'm just that kind.

Beam me up to Heavon Scotty

Other Comments by theantitheist

23. Comment #115092 by CambrianExplosion on January 23, 2008 at 2:34 pm

 avatar"A lot of times, flocks aren't willing to submit or be obedient to God," he said in an interview before a Sunday evening service. "If somebody is not willing to be helped, they forfeit their membership."

Translation:

Not everybody wants to do as I say, so I claim that my will is God's will and have them cast out of my church.

Why don't people see through this crap?

Other Comments by CambrianExplosion

24. Comment #115097 by notsobad on January 23, 2008 at 2:40 pm

 avatar
I think this clearly demonstrates that Atheists have more morals then the religious.

Don't generalize.
This shows that organized dogma is fucked up.

Other Comments by notsobad

25. Comment #115101 by Deepthought on January 23, 2008 at 2:52 pm

 avatarWhat would happen if an atheist was converted to religion? Would they retain the atheism inspired morals?

Out of curiosity how would you approach an atheist who has converted to christianity?

Other Comments by Deepthought

26. Comment #115102 by Steve Zara on January 23, 2008 at 2:58 pm

 avatar
What would happen if an atheist was converted to religion? Would they retain the atheism inspired morals?
Notsobad is right - you can't generalise. The phrase "atheism inspired morals" is meaningless. A lack of belief in something can't inspire morals.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

27. Comment #115106 by Deepthought on January 23, 2008 at 3:05 pm

 avatarSteve,

I was directing it at theantitheist as a comment on the belief that atheists have more morals than theists. I have met immoral atheists myself (one of them believed that shooting a kid they were babysitting with a tranqualizer was moral) so I know it is a mostly unfounded generalization.

The third question still remains though.

Other Comments by Deepthought

28. Comment #115108 by Corylus on January 23, 2008 at 3:12 pm

 avatarDeepthought
Out of curiosity how would you approach an atheist who has converted to christianity?


I am not sure that I would use the term 'converted' :-) Presupposes that atheism is a religion that one can both convert to and be converted away from.

However; to answer your question; same way I would approach anyone who has taken on a religion that they were not brought up with. Genuine curiosity.

[Edit: sorry Steve, on rereading, - think that question was directed to you - but I can't help interrupting sometimes]

Other Comments by Corylus

29. Comment #115114 by Steve Zara on January 23, 2008 at 3:27 pm

 avatar
Out of curiosity how would you approach an atheist who has converted to christianity?


Bewilderment.

[Edit: sorry Steve, on rereading, - think that question was directed to you - but I can't help interrupting sometimes]


I always assume that on forums like this, interruptions are entirely acceptable, if you feel you have something to add.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

30. Comment #115117 by Lycosid on January 23, 2008 at 3:31 pm

It would appear that we reap what we sow.

Other Comments by Lycosid

31. Comment #115118 by Deepthought on January 23, 2008 at 3:34 pm

 avatarCorylus

The question was directed to anyone who could answer.
What term should I use instead of converted?

Out of curiosity how would you approach an atheist who has converted to christianity?


Bewilderment.


I think I lean towards bewildered curiosity.

I ask this because I'm being told to listen to the head of the Human Genome Project at my local church. Apparently he went from atheism to Christianity. I was kind of wondering about what reasons he would give for this change.

Other Comments by Deepthought

32. Comment #115124 by 82abhilash on January 23, 2008 at 3:43 pm

Deepthought if you are talking about Francis Collins, I think I can explain. Collins was a default atheist. He decided to become a scientist, and serious scientists where atheists, so he decided to be one.

He did not struggle with deep questions that most normal people struggle with before they realize that religion does not give good answers. And such people are more gullible for religious thinking. They have not been vaccinated against this virus.

Once you take the plunge, it is difficult to change without loosing credibility. What most people do then, is to quietly refuse to put themselves in any situation that would require them to reconcile their religious views with reality.


25. Comment #115101 by Deepthought on January 23, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Out of curiosity how would you approach an atheist who has converted to christianity?


Now for the last question, you cannot generalize on your approach for the same reason that you cannot generalize on atheist morals.

Atheism is a term without content. No atheist needs to be intellectually honest, moral or sincere. Like Christopher Hitchens says Irreligion is a necesarry not a sufficient condition for a just society. So unless you have some insight into their nature, their thoughts, their tastes, etc., you cannot approach them effectively.

Other Comments by 82abhilash

33. Comment #115128 by gyokusai on January 23, 2008 at 3:59 pm

 avatar
Once, when the congregation voted out an adulterer who refused to repent, an older woman was confused and thought the church had voted to send the man to hell.


If there's something I'm going to remember from this article for quite a while, it's this. Truly bizarre.

Deepthought sez:
I brought this up with a "biblical literalist" because he supports war and he says that it is "Thou shalt not murder"
I wonder how this changes matters and what translation he is looking at?


Well, it's the Hebrew translation, from, er, Hebrew, actually. And yes, there's a big difference between killing and murdering. For further information, ask your local legal system. This is why it's okay to fight in a war or put people on deathrow, but not to shoot your neighbor for her new car or kill the president to impress Jodie Foster. (I'm not endorsing war or deathrow here, I'm just saying.) The thing I never understood is that it's okay for Christians to go to war or put people on deathrow because the King James Bible (or the Luther Bible, for that matter), always translates "thou shalt not kill." And they have all that other great advice about, like, turning the other cheek and stuff, too. Beats me!

^_^J.

Other Comments by gyokusai

34. Comment #115129 by mmurray on January 23, 2008 at 4:04 pm

 avatar
After that, the county prosecutor dismissed the charge and told county law enforcement not to arrest her again unless she was creating a disturbance.


Well at least the county prosecutor in this town has some brains.

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

35. Comment #115134 by Corylus on January 23, 2008 at 4:15 pm

 avatarDeepthought.

You might enjoy this review by Sam Harris of Francis Collins' book.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20060815_sam_harris_language_ignorance/

With regard to going to see him. I would jump at the opportunity. I always try to understand others.

Three questions.

1) What are the overt explanations for that behaviour?
2) What are the (possible) covert explanations for that behaviour?
3) What are the (possible) explanations for this behaviour that even the person is question has not considered?

(N.B. Always try to consider the possiblity of honourable aims as well as dishonourable ones. Be fair).

You get different answers for all three questions. When all three answers depress you – worry. I don't think this will be the case with Collins (I think he is essentially well-meaning – e.g. had a bit of a brain fart and misinterpreted it).

However, in the case of the priest in this article, who set the police on a non-violent old lady, you get very different answers.

Other Comments by Corylus

36. Comment #115148 by MelM on January 23, 2008 at 5:02 pm

With holy men issuing punishment against sinners and opponents, I think we're seeing what a "Christian Nation" with the wall of separation broken will look like. Not satisfied with respect for their b.s., these drivelers now are asserting power to mess around in peoples lives. This is a rather serious development.

But,
"The congregants had sued the pastor for access to the church's financial records."
and
"But she won't be pushed around."

used to be very American and we'd better hope the hell that they still are. If this practice continues and grows, it represents a further serious corruption of the American spirit; the country will have achieved "Theorcray readiness".

Other Comments by MelM

37. Comment #115168 by babrock on January 23, 2008 at 5:32 pm

It strikes me as a great idea. They are carying their smug arogent pomposity to the next logcal level therefor showing more their true colors.

Other Comments by babrock

38. Comment #115228 by Celandine on January 23, 2008 at 7:02 pm

He did say that while the church does not "blacklist" anyone, a strict reading of the Bible requires pastors to punish disobedient members.

If this minister refused to appoint deacons, as the church's constitution requires, isn't he the disobedient one, not Caskey?

Other Comments by Celandine

39. Comment #115290 by Logicel on January 24, 2008 at 12:08 am

 avataran older woman was confused and thought the church had voted to send the man to hell.
_____

Well, I don't think the bible forbids creepy Christians to be democratic!

What happened to the free will and love that Christians bleat about all the time? Shunning is sure an odd way of showing love and allowing free will.

This elderly lady's confronting her disgraceful treatment is similar to gays trying to get church officials to accept their right to be gay and Christian. Instead of leaving in a huff, they waste further energy in fighting these pathetically rigid control freaks. Their confrontation shows how great their need is to be part of the church. It takes two to tango. So this pastor is only doing his job, and his parishioner is only doing her job--a match made in heaven!

Other Comments by Logicel

40. Comment #115293 by Smith on January 24, 2008 at 12:37 am

 avatarLogicel, your comment reminds me of an exhibitionist BDSM lesbian couple I kept fantasizing awhile ago. Oh... those endless lonely nights.

Other Comments by Smith

41. Comment #115309 by Tyler Durden on January 24, 2008 at 1:42 am

 avatar
The charge was trespassing, but Mrs. Caskey's real offense, in her pastor's view, was spiritual. Several months earlier, when she had questioned his authority, he'd charged her with spreading "a spirit of cancer and discord" and expelled her from the congregation.
They called the cops for this? And the cops actually answered the call? Idiots!

What about charging Pastor Jason Burrick with wasting police time?

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

42. Comment #115311 by yanco on January 24, 2008 at 1:48 am

 avatarThe pastor did the right thing. This woman is old and istead of enjoing last years of her life to the fullest, she was wasting here precious time and money in a church.. That is an abomination!

Other Comments by yanco

43. Comment #115319 by hungarianelephant on January 24, 2008 at 2:20 am

 avatarWell for a start she should sue the county sheriff for false imprisonment, and should join the pastor as co-defendant. Since when was trespass in a church a criminal offence?

Thank FSM the county prosecutor has some sense.

I've probably missed the point of this article, haven't I?

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

44. Comment #115322 by GordonH on January 24, 2008 at 2:31 am

 avatarOh dear, my mothers name was Caskey.
I guess it is in the blood.
We are all a bit cantankerous.

Other Comments by GordonH

45. Comment #115359 by GBile on January 24, 2008 at 5:01 am

... included adultery, drunkenness and refusal to honor church elders


When you designate the above as 'sins', you must be truly amoral.

The whole story points at the apparent fact that 'human sacrifices' are still being made in the name of religion. Scapegoat a few to make the rest more obedient. Sick to the core.

Other Comments by GBile

46. Comment #115436 by jimbob on January 24, 2008 at 7:40 am

Wonder if Ted Haggard ever "disciplined" members of his congregation?

;-)

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47. Comment #115437 by irate_atheist on January 24, 2008 at 7:43 am

 avatar46. Comment #115436 by jimbob -

Haw haw!!!

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48. Comment #115489 by GoneGolfing on January 24, 2008 at 8:40 am

In the past decade, more than two dozen lawsuits related to church discipline have been filed as congregants sue pastors for defamation, negligent counseling and emotional injury, according to the Religion Case Reporter, a legal-research database. Peggy Penley, a Fort Worth, Texas, woman whose pastor revealed her extramarital affair to the congregation after she confessed it in confidence, waged a six-year battle against the pastor, charging him with negligence. Last summer, the Texas Supreme Court dismissed her suit, ruling that the pastor was exercising his religious beliefs by publicizing the affair.

This type of vile bullshit makes my blood boil!!

Using this sneaky, backstabbing tactic to humiliate a person into spiritual submission is so fucking low and not to mention in direct opposition to what Jesus taught!!.. Remember the casting of the first stone story?... Exactly !!

Jesus as much as said to the Pharisee's ""Hey lads your not perfect and so piss off and mind your own business, this is between me and the woman ""..... End of story, no further public display of the womans sin, and no additional punishment was required. As a matter of fact that woman is believed to have been Mary Magdalene who became a prominent deciple of Jesus.

I can't stand it when these dickwad pastors cherrypick scriptures and then go power trippin just to make themselves look like their all aligned up with the will of God and doing what he wants them too. Sickening.

GG :-)

Other Comments by GoneGolfing

49. Comment #115515 by Erik on January 24, 2008 at 9:22 am

You really have to wonder about someone who accuses some poor old lady of being "guilty of idolatry". Seriously, idolatry? Like the woman is secretly worshipping a statute of Baal or something. It's as suspicious as someone regularly using the word "for" instead of "because", or the phrase "at hand" to mean "happening soon". Just grow up and leave the stupid phraseology behind.

Other Comments by Erik

50. Comment #115535 by notsobad on January 24, 2008 at 9:49 am

 avatar
I can't stand it when these dickwad pastors cherrypick scriptures

Should they not cherry pick and just stone her instead of calling the police?

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