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Tuesday, January 29, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Atheism and Violence

by Edward T. Oakes, S.J.

Yes, yes. Another vitriolic Jesuit, but not only his he vitriolic – note the article beneath this one from Prof. John M. Lynch who wrote up a piece on Oakes on his blog Stranger Fruit titled "Darwin, Marx and Bad Scholarship"

Reposted from:
http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/?p=961

Books advocating atheism have recently been enjoying a modest boomlet. Sales are solid, book readings are sold out, and their authors grace the highbrow talk shows and op-ed pages in prestigious newspapers and periodicals. But their arguments are shopworn, stale hand-me-downs and threadbare heirlooms inherited from an era that was fading away even before the French Revolution had made the connection between atheism and violence clear to any fair observer. Yet these books read as if they came from authors who had never heard of the Reign of Terror or Robespierre.

It is this blinkered ahistorical myopia that makes reading these books such a surreal experience. For like a "red thread" running through all their other arguments, each book has one central claim: Belief in God causes violence. The obvious corollary to this thesis is almost too absurdly risible to merit formulation, and some authors are just coy (or embarrassed) enough not to say it out loud; but others are bolder and shout it from the rooftops: If only atheism would take hold as the majority view throughout the globe, humans would lose their propensity for violence, lion would nestle beside the lamb, children would regain their long-lost happiness, swords would magically turn into plowshares, churches would empty and the resultant collapse in the market-price for incense would alone reverse global warming. Richard Dawkins, for example, opens his recent book The God Delusion with this hilariously naïve depiction of the Eschaton that awaits us if only we would cast off the security blanket of religion:

Imagine, with John Lennon, a world with no religion. Imagine no suicide bombers, no 9/11, no 7/7, no Crusades, no witch-hunts, no Gunpowder Plot, no Indian partition, no Israeli/Palestinian wars, no Serb/Croat/Muslim massacres, no persecution of Jews as "Christ-killers," no Northern Ireland "troubles," no "honor killings," no shiny-suited bouffant-haired televangelists fleecing gullible people of their money ("God wants you to give till it hurts"). Imagine no Talban to blow up ancient statues, no public beheadings of blasphemers, no flogging of female skin for the crime of showing an inch of it.


The inevitable, even clichéd, response on the part of theists to this litany of woes is to ask: what about Hitler and Stalin? Yes, the question resorts to the hackneyed rhetorical ploy of et tu quoque (Latin for "So's your old man"). But at least the question's inevitability forces the atheist to show his hand. Thus Dawkins lamely avers that Hitler did believe in God (of sorts) and, hey, Stalin attended an Orthodox seminary in his youth! If that retort seems a tad desperate, England's most pious unbeliever concludes with this wan distinction: "Stalin was an atheist and Hitler probably wasn't, but even if he was, the bottom line of the Stalin/Hitler debating point is very simple. Individual atheists may do evil things but they don't do evil things in the name of atheism." So it's not atheism that's the problem, only atheists! At this point you can probably already hear someone offstage lip-synching G. K. Chesterton: it's not that atheism has been tried and found wanting, you see, it's just never been tried at all in its pure form, a point that would not likely have consoled the Carmelite nuns as they were being killed by Republican forces during Spain's civil war in the 1930s.

One would think that, given their insistence that faith and violence are inextricably linked, these authors would be a bit more circumspect about their own rhetoric. As it happens, one does not have to read too far into these books to see an underlying advocacy of violence animating their venom, an advocacy made most explicit in Sam Harris's The End of Faith, which openly avows: "Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them. This may seem an extraordinary claim, but it merely enunciates an ordinary fact about the world in which we live. . . . There is, in fact, no talking to some people. … We will continue to spill blood in what is, at bottom, a war of ideas." To which I can only respond with one of Blaise Pascal's more mordant observations, "Thinking too little about things or thinking too much both make us obstinate and fanatical." Pascal called civil war the worst of all evils and openly admitted that no evil is greater than that committed under the guise of religion. If he were living today, I am sure his response to Harris would be: yes, Mr. Harris, you're right, and the reason atheism brings so much violence in its wake is because it is its own kind of religion—and that's your problem: your atheism is too religious.

Pascal's underlying point is that the clash between theism and atheism changes none of the constituents of the human condition. What Pope Benedict XVI said in Spe Salvi specifically of Karl Marx can be extended to most other atheists: "He forgot that man always remains man. He forgot man and he forgot man's freedom. He forgot that freedom always remains also freedom for evil. . . . His real error is materialism: man, in fact, is not merely the product of economic conditions, and it is not possible to redeem him purely from the outside by creating a favorable economic environment." Or by establishing a polity based on an atheist worldview, the pope adds immediately. One of the great merits of this extraordinary encyclical is the way it deftly exposes the underlying dynamic of violence in the atheist project, at least in its doctrinaire Marxist variety:

Since there is no God to create justice, it seems man himself is now called to establish justice. If in the face of this world's suffering, protest against God is understandable, [nonetheless] the claim that humanity can and must do what no God actually does or is able to do is both presumptuous and intrinsically false. It is no accident that this idea has led to the greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice; rather, it is grounded in the intrinsic falsity of the claim. A world which has to create its own justice is a world without hope. No one and nothing can answer for centuries of suffering. No one and nothing can guarantee that the cynicism of power—whatever beguiling ideological mask it adopts—will cease to dominate the world.


Ironically, Benedict is far more respectful of certain varieties of unbelief than are the noisy new atheists like Dawkins and Harris of any form of belief whatever (except their own of course). In a fascinating passage dealing with the non-doctrinaire Marxists of the famous Frankfurt School, the pope shows how their own requirements for hope inevitably lead to an openness to the Christian doctrine of the resurrection:

This is why the great thinkers of the Frankfurt School, Max Horkheimer and Theodor W. Adorno, were equally critical of atheism and theism. Horkheimer radically excluded the possibility of ever finding a this-worldly substitute for God, while at the same time he rejected the image of a good and just God. In an extreme radicalization of the Old Testament prohibition of images, he speaks of a "longing for the totally Other" that remains inaccessible—a cry of yearning directed at world history. Adorno also firmly upheld this total rejection of images, which naturally meant the exclusion of any "image" of a loving God. On the other hand, he also constantly emphasized this "negative" dialectic and asserted that justice—true justice—would require a world "where not only present suffering would be wiped out, but also that which is irrevocably past would be undone." This would mean, however—to express it with positive and hence, for him, inadequate symbols—that there can be no justice without a resurrection of the dead.


In other words, atheism is now coming undone by its own contradictions. In the ancient world, Epicurus scored belief in the gods for its fear-mongering; in the modern world, Enlightened and Marxist philosophers attacked religious belief for the opposite failing: for its attempt to extinguish an accessible and realizable happiness in the "real" world in favor of an imaginary happiness in the afterlife. But decades before such hopes for a this-worldly happiness would be dashed in the abattoir of the twentieth century, Friedrich Nietzsche had already exposed that illusion. What happiness? What "real" world? What improvement? What progress? Along with ignoring the French Revolution, one of the most telling features of the new books on atheism is their consistent refusal to engage Nietzsche, who, if read correctly, ought to make atheists squirm far more than he has ever caused discomfit to believers.

First, he turned the critical methods of the Enlightenment against their inventors and showed that Enlightened faith in progress was just as illusory as belief in an afterlife. Second, he demanded that a critical philosophy stop pretending to be a substitute religion (he shrewdly called Hegelian idealism "insidious theology"). Third, he insisted on the indissoluble bond between Christian doctrine and Christian morality and poured contempt on novelists like George Eliot for supposing otherwise: "In England one must rehabilitate oneself after every little emancipation from theology by showing in a veritably awe-inspiring manner what a moral fanatic one is. That is the penance they pay over there."

In retrospect, it should not surprise the keen observer of these books that the new atheists do not attend to Nietzsche. As R. J. Hollingdale says in his fine biography, Nietzsche: The Man and His Philosophy, "Nineteenth-century rationalism was characterized by insight into the difficulty in accepting revealed religion, and obtuseness regarding the consequences of rejecting it." As Nietzsche said so well of these foolish rationalists in his Twilight of the Idols:

They have got rid of the Christian God, and now feel obliged to cling all the more firmly to Christian morality: that is English consistency. . . . With us it is different. When one gives up Christian belief, one thereby deprives oneself of the right to Christian morality. Whoever tries to peel off this fundamental idea—belief in God—from Christian morality will only be taking a hammer to the whole thing, shattering it to pieces.


Perhaps this why Nietzsche said in Ecce Homo, "the most serious Christians have always been well disposed toward me." For they at least, unlike Dawkins, Harris, Daniel Dennett and Christopher Hitchens, can see that after Nietzsche a moral critique of the Christian God has become impossible, for it denies the very presupposition that makes its own critique possible. Like Abraham asking if the Lord God of justice could not himself do justice, protest atheism must accept the very norms that Nietzsche showed are essential to the meaning of belief. In Nietzsche alone one reads what the world really looks like si Deus non sit. Only this godless author can tell us how pathetic man is without God, as here, in this passage from "On Truth and Lying in an Extra-Moral Sense" (one of the four essays that make up Untimely Meditations):

In some remote corner of the universe, poured out and glittering in innumerable solar systems, there once was a star [sic] on which clever animals invented knowledge. That was the highest and most mendacious minute of "world history"—yet only a minute. After nature had drawn a few breaths, the star grew cold, and the clever animals had to die. One might invent such a fable and still not have illustrated sufficiently how wretched, how shadowy and flighty, how aimless and arbitrary, the human intellect appears in nature. There have been eternities when it did not exist; and when it is done for again, nothing will have happened. . . . There is nothing in nature so despicable or insignificant that it cannot immediately be blown up like a bag by a slight breath of this power of knowledge; and just as every porter wants an admirer, the proudest human being—the philosopher—thinks that he sees the eyes of the universe telescopically focused from all sides on his actions and thoughts.


To be sure, this passage occurs in one of his earliest books, and his later career showed that he could not consistently maintain such a bleak view, for in The Gay Science Nietzsche even flirts, however fleetingly, with Platonic idealism, recognizing as he does that science too is a moral activity that cannot account for its own moral purposes. If nature trumps knowledge at every turn, then science loses its point, and the essentially moral nature entailed in the search for truth is gone, along with the concept of truth itself:

Thus the question "Why science?" leads back to the moral problem: Why have morality at all when life, nature, and history are "not moral"? No doubt, those who are truthful in that audacious and ultimate sense that is presupposed by the faith in science thus affirm another world than the world of life, nature, and history; and insofar as they affirm this "other world"—look, must they not by that same token negate its counterpart, this world, our world?—But you will have gathered what I am driving at, namely, that it is still a metaphysical faith upon which our faith in science rests—that even we seekers after knowledge today, we godless anti-metaphysicians, still take our fire, too, from the flame lit by a faith that is thousands of years old, that Christian faith which was also the faith of Plato, that God is the truth, that truth is divine. (Nietzsche's emphases)


But no sooner is that concession made in the minor key, than it is taken away in the major, for the very next sentence reverts to the old Nietzschean specters: "But what if this [metaphysical faith] should become more and more incredible, what if nothing should prove to be divine any more unless it were error, blindness, the lie—if God himself should prove to be our most enduring lie?" As most of his other books prove, that last sentence represents the real Nietzsche, however much he occasionally shrank from its implications. In his major premise, he's right: Christian belief and Christian morality are indissolubly linked. But once he arrives at his minor premise, that faith in the Christian God is impossible, he could see no alternative but to propose a new - and decidedly violent - morality.

In Thus Spake Zarathustra, he said: "Far too many keep on living; they hang on their branches much too long. May a storm soon come to shake all this rotten and worm-eaten fruit from the tree!" In a section of The Gay Science entitled "Holy Cruelty" a Nietzschean "saint" advises a father to kill his disabled child, rhetorically asking, "Isn't it crueler to allow it to live?" Twilight of the Idols includes a section entitled "Morality for Physicians" that calls sick people "parasites" who have no right to life and advocates the "most ruthless suppression and pushing aside of degenerate life." And finally in his autobiography Ecce Homo, one of the last books he sent to the publisher before his collapse into insanity, he said: "If we cast a look a century ahead and assume that my assassination of two thousand years of opposition to nature and of dishonoring humans succeeds, then that new party of life [!] will take in hand the greatest of all tasks—the higher breeding of humanity, including the unsparing destruction of all degenerates and parasites." Finally, in his posthumously published Will to Power he says:

The biblical prohibition "Thou shalt not kill" is a piece of naïveté compared with the seriousness of Life's own "Thou shalt not" issued to decadence: "Thou shalt not procreate!"—Life itself recognizes no solidarity, no "equal right," between the healthy and the degenerate parts of an organism. . . . Sympathy for the decadents, equal rights for the ill-constituted—that would be the profoundest immorality, that would be anti-nature itself as morality!


Compare those passages with Dawkins's blinkered, thick-skulled "explanation" for the evils of Hitler and Stalin: "Stalin and Hitler did extremely evil things in the name of, respectively, dogmatic and doctrinaire Marxism, and an insane and unscientific eugenics theory tinged with sub-Wagnerian ravings." As if "dogmatic and doctrinaire" Marxism and "unscientific" eugenics had nothing to do with atheism! The connection between these two twentieth-century ideologies and the recession of the Christian God in the nineteenth is nearly seamless, as just this passage alone from Hitler's Mein Kampf makes clear:

[My worldview] by no means believes in the equality of races, but recognizes along with their differences their higher or lower value, and through this knowledge feels obliged, according to the eternal will that rules this universe, to promote the victory of the better, the stronger, and to demand the submission of the worse and weaker. It embraces thereby in principle the aristocratic law of nature and believes in the validity of this law down to the last individual being. It recognizes not only the different value of races, but also the different value of individuals. . . . By no means can it approve of the right of an ethical idea if this idea is a danger to the racial life of the bearer of a higher ethics.


One need not claim that Hitler was a close student of Nietzsche's writings (although he certainly named him as an inspiration) to see the obvious affinities here. Nor does one have to slur Nietzsche with the Nazi brush, as do those vulgarians who want to dismiss his witness entirely, since he obviously would have had nothing but contempt for Nazism (he once said that the opening line of the German national anthem, Deutschland, Deutschland, über alles, was the stupidest line ever written, and he so loathed German culture that he asked to be buried in Poland). The point, rather, is that Nietzsche saw. However much he (usually) advocated what ought to be most abhorred, he at least recognized that true morality and Christian belief are siblings. Moreover, in tones redolent of Jeremiah he saw the consequences to civilization as a whole when its citizens lose their faith in God. For what will take the place of God will be only a passionate—and largely empty—politics:

For when truth enters the lists against the lies of millennia, we shall have convulsions, a spasm of earthquakes . . . the likes of which have never been dreamed. Then the concept of politics will be completely dissolved in a war between spirits, all authority structures of the old order will be blown into the air—one and all, they rest upon a lie; there will be wars the likes of which have never existed on earth. From my time forward earth will see Great Politics.


Such are the contradictions of atheism. With hope in progress gone, with the lessons of the twentieth century still unlearned in the twenty-first, with technology progressing, in Adorno's words, from the slingshot to the atom bomb (a remark cited in Spe Salvi), with a resurgence of religiously motivated violence filling the headlines, all that the new atheists can manage is to hearken back to an Enlightenment-based critique of religion. But they find their way blocked, not so much by Nietzsche (whom, as we saw, they largely ignore) but by the ineluctable realities he so ruthlessly exposed. Not Nietzsche, but the history of the twentieth century has shown that godless culture is incapable of making men happier. All Nietzsche did was to point out that no civilization, however "progressive," can dispel the terrifying character of nature; and once progress is called into question, the human condition appears in all its forsaken nakedness.

Against these realities, all that the new atheists can offer is only the most jejune, wan, and bloodless humanism: not Nietzsche's Zarathustra but John Lennon's "Imagine." Not once do these books look at the dilemma into which liberalism has fallen. In that regard, I am reminded of a little known fact from the Scopes "Monkey Trial." Clarence Darrow was the progress-happy lawyer for the evolution-teaching defendant, and how much he has anticipated the new atheists! As Peter Berger dryly noted in his book A Rumor of Angels, Darrow was "an admirable man in many ways, but one dense enough sincerely to believe that a Darwinist view of man could serve as a basis for his opposition to capital punishment." Such obtuseness is shared by most liberals today, who merrily fuse opposition to capital punishment, support for abortion and doctor-assisted suicide, condemnation of racism, and a vaguely appreciative acquaintance with evolutionary theory—without the least sense of the impossible dilemmas entailed in these contradictory positions.

Given these hopelessly confused and superficial arguments, it's hard to take the new atheism seriously. Nietzsche was surely right when he said that serious Christians would come to appreciate his witness. But who can take seriously these recent tub-thumping accusations that believers are the sole source of violence, all coming from writers who themselves advocate violence in their next breath? That's why these books from the new atheists can hardly represent a threat to believers. Pascal was already on to their game in the seventeenth century: "All those contradictions that seemed to take me furthest from the knowledge of any religion," he said in the Pensées, "are what led me most directly to the true religion."

Edward T. Oakes, S.J., teaches theology at the University of St. Mary of the Lake, the seminary for the Archdiocese of Chicago.

And now for a much needed word from Prof. Lynch:
http://scienceblogs.com/strangerfruit/2006/12/darwin_marx_and_bad_scholarshi.php

Darwin, Marx and Bad Scholarship

Edward T. Oakes may be a good teacher of theology at St. Mary of the Lake, but he is a lousy historian of Darwinism. Witness the following statement from his review of Richard Weikart's work, From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany:

Spencer might well have been the first to coin the phrase "survival of the fittest." But Darwin enthusiastically adopted it in the 6th edition of his Origin of Species as a substitute term for "natural selection." Nor did he ever demur when other advocates of evolution's social application came pleading their case. Karl Marx asked if he might dedicate Das Kapital to Darwin, which request Darwin declined only because he did not want to offend the religious sensibilities of his deeply Christian wife.

There are a host of problems with this short extract.

Firstly - and most trivially - Darwin adopted the phrase in the fifth edition of 1869 of Origin (not the sixth of 1872).

Secondly, it is debatable whether Darwin "enthusiastically adopted" the phrase 'survival of the fittest' which Spencer had coined in 1864. If anyone, it was Wallace who enthuiastically endorsed the term, persuading Darwin to adopt it due to what Wallace perceived to be the anthropomorphism of natural selection. In fact, Wallace went so far as to strike out all occurances of 'natural selection' and replace them with 'survival of the fittest' in his own copy of Origin (Browne, The Power of Place, p. 312). Darwin recognized the utility of the phrase (when properly understood as survival of the "most suitable") but remained strongly attached to his original phrase. Enthusiastic he was not, particularly because it muddied his analogy between artifical and natural selection.

On to Marx, who remains entwined with Darwin in the minds of many anti-evolutionists. Henry Morris, the founder of the Institute for Creation Research (ICR) assures us that "it is well known than not only the early Communists, such as Marx and Engels, were atheistic evolutionists, but also that all the leaders of Communism since have been the same" (The Troubled Waters of Evolution, 1974, p. 42). In his The Long War Against God, Morris claims that "Marxism, socialism, and communism, no less than Nazism are squarely based on evolutionism" (p. 83). He assures us that "Marx felt his own work to be the exact parallel of Darwin's. He even wished to dedicate a portion of Das Kapital to the author of The Origin of Species" (History of Modern Creationism, 1993, p. 54). The fable has passed on into the common currency of the Creationist movement here in the United States. For example, A Walk Through History, a 1994 video issued by the Institute for Creation Research, features John Rajca (then the curator of the ICR Museum of Creation and Earth History) teaching the following to a group of schoolchildren: "Karl Marx here, [points to picture of Marx] wanted to dedicate his book on communism, Das Kapital, to Darwin because he said this is where he got his ideas for a political system." To many anti-evolutionists, Darwinism is inescapably linked with Marxism, both ideologies supporting each other, and evolutionary thinking making communism possible.

Such connections between Darwin and Marx have been effectively refuted by historians for over thirty years. The myth of the link between the two figures was created after Marx's death by Friedrich Engels' graveside oration to Marx, and supported by later Marxists such as Filippo Turati, Edward Aveling & Ludwig Büchner as putative evidence for the 'scientific' nature of their worldview. In particular, it has been proven that a letter evidently written by Darwin to Marx, apparently asking that Marx not dedicate the second volume of Das Kapital to him, was in fact addressed to (Marx's son-in-law) Aveling asking that his A Student's Darwin (1881) not be so dedicated. Darwin was opposed to Aveling's vehement anti-Christian rhetoric and wished not to have his name associated with such radicalism. (See Ball 1979 J. Political Theory 7:469; Colp 1982 History of Political Economy 14:461; Carroll & Fuer 1976 Annals of Science 33:386).

Eighty-three words. Three errors. Scholarship at its finest. It is therefore no surprise that Oakes sees Weikart's work as a "magnificently written monograph".

In making his case, Oakes also states that

Darwin actually, if unwittingly, promulgated the charter for all later social Darwinists: "Let the strongest live and the weakest die... . Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows."


Astute readers may recognize the latter part of the quote comes from the final paragraph of Origin (Chapter XIV). The earlier part comes from chapter VII ('Instinct'). Yes, folks. Oakes has constructed a quote from two statements seven chapters apart, possibly the longest ellipsis known to scholarship.

Makes you wonder why Christianity Today would have someone so clearly untrained in the history of Darwinism review the book. Oh, nevermind, I can guess.

Comments 1 - 50 of 118 |

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1. Comment #117792 by MPhil on January 29, 2008 at 4:47 pm

 avatarMy head nearly exploded just from skimming through... so many fallacies. I feel the need to take a shower.

Other Comments by MPhil

2. Comment #117795 by Matt7895 on January 29, 2008 at 4:53 pm

 avatarI know how MPhil feels! I didn't get a headache, but I did taste bile in my mouth... I feel the need to clean my teeth!

Other Comments by Matt7895

3. Comment #117798 by Devolution on January 29, 2008 at 4:59 pm

 avatarThis moron really doesn't know his history

from Wikipedia re: the French Revolution

"On 7 June Robespierre, who had previously condemned the Cult of Reason, advocated a new state religion and recommended that the Convention acknowledge the existence of God. On the next day, the worship of the deistic Supreme Being was inaugurated as an official aspect of the Revolution. Compared with Hébert's popular festivals, this austere new religion of Virtue was received with signs of hostility by an amazed Parisian public."

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4. Comment #117806 by OhioAtheist on January 29, 2008 at 5:24 pm

 avatar
England's most pious unbeliever concludes with this wan distinction: "Stalin was an atheist and Hitler probably wasn't, but even if he was, the bottom line of the Stalin/Hitler debating point is very simple. Individual atheists may do evil things but they don't do evil things in the name of atheism." So it's not atheism that's the problem, only atheists! At this point you can probably already hear someone offstage lip-synching G. K. Chesterton: it's not that atheism has been tried and found wanting, you see, it's just never been tried at all in its pure form, a point that would not likely have consoled the Carmelite nuns as they were being killed by Republican forces during Spain's civil war in the 1930s.


Is it just me, or is this extract entirely devoid of engagement with Dawkins' actual point?

It's remarkable how popular Nietzsche is with the theological crowd. They don't seem to get that "Nietzsche, an atheist, wrote that atheism leads to nihilism; therefore atheism leads to nihilism" does not an argument make.

Such obtuseness is shared by most liberals today, who merrily fuse opposition to capital punishment, support for abortion and doctor-assisted suicide, condemnation of racism, and a vaguely appreciative acquaintance with evolutionary theory—without the least sense of the impossible dilemmas entailed in these contradictory positions.


What a ludicrous obfuscation. The appeal to nature in moral reasoning is a logical fallacy; Oakes ought to know better. The truth or falsity of a particular scientific theory has no bearing on our moral principles whatsoever.

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5. Comment #117808 by Opisthokont on January 29, 2008 at 5:28 pm

It never fails to astound me when people like Mr Oakes say what they do. They obviously have never talked with an atheist, or given any serious consideration of an atheist worldview. Given that, why do they think that they know what we think? They assume that atheism leads to communism, violence, lawlessness, eugenics, and any number of other (often mutually contradictory) things. Some say that atheists claim that, because there is no God, humans must take God's place; some (occasionally the same ones) say that atheists claim that humans are "just another animal". Why do they not actually ask an atheist?

Yes, yes, I know, I should expect no different from people who are told to believe without questioning, that doubt is wrong, that the traditions and myths and centuries-old ethical codes that they happened to be born into are superior to all others. I am more than a little dismayed at the number of "rebuttals" to atheist works that make clear, early and often, that their authors have not actually read any of the material that they think that they are rebutting. Do they have any idea how foolish and unprincipled they make themselves seem? If so, do they care? I would imagine that they do, since many style themselves as scholars, but they nevertheless fail in some essential elements of research. Discussing matters with the subjects of their research (and it is not as if we were unwilling, assuming that they are honest) would be a very good start.

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6. Comment #117809 by MPhil on January 29, 2008 at 5:29 pm

 avatar
As if "dogmatic and doctrinaire" Marxism and "unscientific" eugenics had nothing to do with atheism! The connection between these two twentieth-century ideologies and the recession of the Christian God in the nineteenth is nearly seamless


That was when the pain became unbearable...

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7. Comment #117811 by Chrono_Tata on January 29, 2008 at 5:32 pm

But who can take seriously these recent tub-thumping accusations that believers are the sole source of violence,

Okay, seriously, what is it with this myth that keep propagating that atheists claim that religion is the sole source of violence? Is it the dogmatist's old trick of selective perception?

"Oh look! Atheist claim that religion causes violence therefore they claim that religion is the sole cause of violence! Ipso facto! I'm so damn clever!"

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8. Comment #117813 by Mike O'Risal on January 29, 2008 at 5:45 pm

 avatarI don't get it...

Why do these Creationists keep writing these long, fallacious screeds when they could just as easily write one phrase — "The same bullshit." — and be done with it?

It would make things so easy!

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9. Comment #117817 by cal_mertes on January 29, 2008 at 5:54 pm

"[My worldview] by no means believes in the equality of races, but recognizes along with their differences their higher or lower value, and through this knowledge feels obliged, according to the eternal will that rules this universe, to promote the victory of the better, the stronger, and to demand the submission of the worse and weaker."


Even while claiming that Hitler was an atheist, he quotes Hitler above referring to the "enternal will that rules the universe". Simply put, Hitler was referring to God.

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10. Comment #117827 by Tom Coward on January 29, 2008 at 6:28 pm

I thought Jesuits were famous for their reasoning abilities. I guess this one cut class the day they covered logical falacies.

In more serious vein, isn't this article just another variation on the theme of "If there is no god, then all sorts of terrible things would happen. Therefore, god must exist"? IOW, even admitting the premise, what does this have to do with whether god exists?

I always want to respond: "That there is no god is established beyond a reasonable doubt by the available evidence. Deal with it!"

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11. Comment #117828 by Jack Rawlinson on January 29, 2008 at 6:29 pm

 avatarBut their arguments are shopworn, stale hand-me-downs and threadbare heirlooms...

Unlike, of course, the "arguments" of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism and Hinduism.

These people really need to re-read that old biblical verse about logs and motes, don't they?

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12. Comment #117830 by LorienRyan on January 29, 2008 at 6:41 pm

 avatarThe author accuses the new atheists arguments as being 'shopworn, stale hand-me-downs' then proceeds to dust off the typical responses to them - astounding. I found the article cumbersome to read under the weight of the authors overly polemical representation of his own personal feelings on the matter, which obviously biased his interpretation of the facts. Two thumbs down from me.

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13. Comment #117833 by Electric Monk on January 29, 2008 at 6:54 pm

"Such obtuseness is shared by most liberals today, who merrily fuse opposition to capital punishment, support for abortion and doctor-assisted suicide, condemnation of racism, and a vaguely appreciative acquaintance with evolutionary theory—without the least sense of the impossible dilemmas entailed in these contradictory positions."

- Why do these people keep on insisting that morality either is, or should be derived from scientific fact. Evolutionary theory does not cantradict (indeed can not contradict) any of these poositions - "No aught from an is".

Other Comments by Electric Monk

14. Comment #117838 by Smith on January 29, 2008 at 7:05 pm

 avatarBelow is another article by Oakes found in First Things. Highlights:
1. If God exists, why are there atheists? Or rather, and to put more strongly: Since God exists, what makes atheism conceptually possible?
2. In other words, what all proofs are really reaching for is this common fund of inchoate awareness of the necessity of God already present whenever reason exercises its rational faculties.
3. Just think what would happen, de Lubac asks, if rational proofs really did lead to certainty: Then we would mistake the proof for God; and, in the manner of the French "enlightened" philosophes, we would in effect end up building a temple, not to God, but to reason.

Reason and Pop Atheism
By Edward T. Oakes, S.J.
Monday, January 22, 2007, 10:56 AM
The publishing world, it seems, is just as prone to the fickleness of trends and fashions as is, well, the fashion industry. A few years ago, a whole spate of books came out on Pope Pius XII and the Holocaust, most of them flogging (surely not by coincidence) the same dead horse of papal perfidy. More recently, several books arguing for atheism have cropped up on the bestseller lists. I've looked at a few, and none of them struck me as even trying to get beyond that old dorm-room chestnut: "If God made the universe, who made God?" Gosh, thanks for bringing that up, Professor Bright. I had never really thought of that before—and now, horribile dictu, I've lost my faith!

Needless to say, our recent atheists, without exception, have to drag Darwin into the business. But—also without exception—they end up taking the implications of Darwinian biology so far that their arguments become self-consuming. I am thinking especially of the notion that cultural ideas are only "memes," that is, self-replicating trends that catch on and take over a culture the way viruses do in the human body. One favorite example would be teenagers who wear baseball caps backwards: An impish adolescent somewhere gets the idea to wear his cap backwards, and soon every boy in the land is following suit.

The next step then is to claim that religion, too, is a meme, and a mighty destructive one at that, the Ebola virus of human civilization. The trouble is, if all ideas are but memes, then so is natural selection, whose cultural influence has its own bloody history to account for. On that, I recommend the reader get a hold of Richard Weikart's From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany, which carefully traces Darwin's influence on a host of prominent intellectuals in Germany from 1860 to 1939, a genealogy of "memetic contagion" that made Nazi ideology so plausible to so many. (For a fuller review of this truly brilliant book, see my article "Darwin's Graveyards" in the December 2006 issue of Books & Culture.")

Tedious and self-consuming as these arguments are, their popularity—if one is to judge by the bestseller lists—did get me to thinking about atheism as a cultural phenomenon. As I always ask my class when I teach contemporary theology: If God exists, why are there atheists? Or rather, and to put more strongly: Since God exists, what makes atheism conceptually possible?

I let my students crack their noggins on that question for a while to prepare them to take up one of the texts in the course, The Discovery of God by the renowned French Jesuit Henri de Lubac, which deals directly with this issue of atheism as made possible by God.

Part of the problem is psychological: even the most knock-down arguments in mathematics fade in the brain after a while, like sand castles on the beach. For example, I would never presume to raise objections against Euclid's plane geometry, but I'd be hard pressed to reproduce what I learned in sophomore high-school geometry after all these years.

But the problem goes much deeper than the vagaries of human memory. St. Anselm thought he had his own knock-down argument for the existence of God, which later went by the name of the Ontological Argument (which Thomas Aquinas held to be invalid). But however much Anselm was convinced of the argument, he never went so far as to place moral blame on those who rejected it, because for him there was a deeper reality behind the phenomenon of atheism. As he said in the Proslogion (the best translation is here:

Why this, O Lord, why this? Is the eye darkened by its own weakness, or blinded by your light?—Without doubt it is darkened in itself and blinded by you, obscured by its own littleness and overwhelmed by your immensity, contracted by its own narrowness and overcome by your greatness.


As I presume most people reading this site know, the First Vatican Council declared de fide that the existence of God can be proved by reason. At first glance, this seems paradoxical. For if God can be proved through rational demonstration, one would expect the council to adduce this marvelous proof and let it be judged on its own merits. And because of de Lubac's critique of the "manual Thomism" of the Roman universities in the late-nineteenth and early-twentieth centuries (which placed heavy emphasis on rational proofs for God's existence), one might also think that de Lubac would dismiss the sterile rationalism that some theologians claim lurks behind Vatican I.

But that is not his position at all. De Lubac quite openly asserts that "behind the apparent variations, the skeleton of the proof always remains the same. The proof is solid and eternal, as hard as steel. It is something more than one of reason's inventions: it is reason itself."

What happens then is that, once this proof is formulated in words, the learned make adaptations and modifications as they encounter objections. But these modifications are for de Lubac in no way part of the incontrovertible proof that he holds to be the common patrimony of mankind: the use of reason itself. Hence de Lubac's confident conclusion:

All the objections brought against the various proofs for the existence of God are in vain; criticism can never invalidate them, for it can never get its teeth into the principle common to them all. On the contrary, that principle emerges more clearly as the elements with which the proofs are constructed are rearranged. . . . It forms part of the substance of the mind. It is not a path which the mind can be discouraged from pursuing to the end, or one from which it can turn away, afraid of having taken the wrong road. Path and mind are merged together. The mind itself is a moving path (de Lubac's emphasis).


At first glance, de Lubac might seem to be elevating the place of reason here to such a height that he ends up conceding reason's right to judge the things of God—the very procedure he found so objectionable in Descartes and Kant. That, however, is not his intent, which is why he so stresses the dynamism of reason. Augustine defined sin as "the heart turned in on itself," the corollary of which for de Lubac would be: The Enlightenment (at least in its French and German versions) is reason turned in on itself.

What has always struck readers of the Continental Rationalists from Descartes to Kant is how all these Rationalists divide reason from desire (usually called by them, tellingly, the passions, meaning feelings that overwhelm us rather than longings that express our inmost nature). De Lubac, on the contrary, sees reason and desire as parts of the same whole, subsumed under the wider image of "heart," encompassing them both. And because desire is inherently outward in its aim, thereby testifying to a deficiency in the self, the same holds true of reason. Precisely because we never start off in possession of the truth, we must go out in search of it, always desiring it on the way. And that dynamism aims, however unawares, at God. This is why Thomas Aquinas can say in De veritate: "All knowing beings implicitly know God in everything they know."

In other words, what all proofs are really reaching for is this common fund of inchoate awareness of the necessity of God already present whenever reason exercises its rational faculties. In one of his many footnotes, de Lubac quotes Maurice Blondel, who makes just this point: Proofs for the existence of God, Blondel says, "are not so much an invention as an inventory, not so much a revelation as an elucidation, a purification and a justification of the fundamental beliefs of humanity."

That said, de Lubac refuses to countenance faulty reasoning just because an invalid argument is aiming for the same conclusion as do valid proofs. Believers' faith might well be strong enough to slough off bad arguments for God's existence, but that should be no excuse for sloth in reasoning: "Where belief in God is concerned, I cannot rest content with a doubtful argument, and an inconclusive proof is as repugnant to my moral sense as it is offensive to my intelligence." And further: "Even in the most essential matters a sinner may reason better than a saint." Rigor in reasoning is no sin; rightly realized, it testifies to faith's underlying rationality.

But even in cases where, say, a Thomas Aquinas trumps a David Hume in the field of argument, the believer feels vaguely dissatisfied:

Why is it that the mind which has found God still retains, or constantly reverts to, the feeling of not having found him? … The temptation is to succumb to this scandal and to despair in proportion as one has formerly thought to have found him: a temptation to deny the light because the veil becomes opaque once again…. The temptation in this case is to underestimate the obstacles, to imagine that serenity is easily acquired, and to confuse the faint clarity of being with the divine light.


Just think what would happen, de Lubac asks, if rational proofs really did lead to certainty: Then we would mistake the proof for God; and, in the manner of the French "enlightened" philosophes, we would in effect end up building a temple, not to God, but to reason. But that is the very definition of reason's sin, turning inward. We would then make reason the object of our worship, rather than God. (In the midst of the maelstrom of the French Revolution, some Jacobins actually built a "Temple to Reason.")

But when we turn to God via our rational faculties, we simultaneously recognize both the underlying rationality of our faith in God and yet also reason's insufficiency to grant us what we really long for: light itself in a dark world. That light, however, only comes from God, not reason. We are pilgrims, and reason is our viaticum —but it is only viaticum. The nourishment this food for the journey provides is salubrious (when the reasoning is correct), but it is not life itself, only the provisions for life, which only God can provide.


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15. Comment #117843 by theantitheist on January 29, 2008 at 7:25 pm

AAAAAARRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.


Smith

Why oh Why!! I almost got drawn into reading all of that essay as well as half of the first (I had to stop it was just so long and stupid). And it is just the whitterings of a twit.

He has had an excellant education in one regard, he has been introduced to a lot of concepts and ideas however his main failing is to dismiss them in order to allow his results to fit his preindoctrined notions.

To dismiss Dawkins rebuttals as the age old arguements we've all heard before is fair in one regard, the're not particulary new. However the need to repeat them and shout about them is because they wash over the pillocks and Oakes of this world like water off a ducks back. "I'm right and you're words can't touch me" We'll never convince these idiots because they do not have the necessary intelligance to challange their own beliefs or change their mind once they have convinced themselves that they are right.

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16. Comment #117845 by The Anti-Pope on January 29, 2008 at 7:35 pm

 avatarAh, so many stupidities, so many fallacies, so much biased interpretation of facts, so little time!

"But their arguments are shopworn, stale hand-me-downs and threadbare heirlooms inherited from an era that was fading away even before the French Revolution had made the connection between atheism and violence clear to any fair observer."

Yet I fail to see even a single new one from his side of it! Good Gandhi, these people make me sick! The only reason we don't produce new arguments with any regularity is because we have already put to death all of their arguments a million times, the only reason they don't produce new arguments is because they have nothing left to offer! It is quite sad when people like this guy actually think this is a sign of weakness from us rather than a sign of the overwhelming strength of our position.

I'm not even going to try to better the arguments put forward as explanation for Stalin and Mao, because, once again, that argument has been put to death and yet somehow managed to still survive so many times I'm starting to believe in resurrection! It was the evil nature of the individuals, coupled with the intelligence that would have spawned their atheism in the first place, put on top of their obvious personal love of power and dogma that created those atrocities, not the fact that they were atheists! The people who keep pulling out this ridiculous argument have got to accept the fact that it has been destroyed so many times that it should be embarrassing to be caught using it!

I swear to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, one more article like this and my head is going to explode!

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17. Comment #117847 by SomeDanGuy on January 29, 2008 at 7:47 pm

This makes me appreciate some of the other theist essays I've read: they used many fewer words to be so completely wrong.

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18. Comment #117848 by troyreynolds86 on January 29, 2008 at 7:50 pm

Somehow it always feels like to me that the theists, when considering what an atheist world would look like, get caught up in Dostoyevsky's paraphrase, "Without God all things are permissible". Whether this is true or not, and one could point to a dozen purely secular nations that are socially light years ahead of the most religions, e.i. the US and Middle East, they seem to use it to skim over the argument being presented to them.

This argument, as I understand it, and correct me if I am wrong, is this. When one assumes there is a god, that god is good and has a desire for certain actions it is but a small step to go from sane humanitarian to maniacal psychopath. All one need do is convince oneself that their god wants them to perform the action, and since it is divinely mandated from a good being it must be good to do. This is how inquisitions happen. God wants you to destroy the heretics. This is how abortion clinic bombings happen. God wants you to destroy the abortionists. The list could continue but I think the point is clear. I would contend that Dostoyevsky had it entirely backwards. With God all things are permissible.

Troy

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19. Comment #117851 by The Anti-Pope on January 29, 2008 at 8:01 pm

 avatarAh, so many stupidities, so many fallacies, so much biased interpretation of facts, so little time!

"But their arguments are shopworn, stale hand-me-downs and threadbare heirlooms inherited from an era that was fading away even before the French Revolution had made the connection between atheism and violence clear to any fair observer."

Yet I fail to see even a single new one from his side of it! Good Gandhi, these people make me sick! The only reason we don't produce new arguments with any regularity is because we have already put to death all of their arguments a million times, the only reason they don't produce new arguments is because they have nothing left to offer! It is quite sad when people like this guy actually think this is a sign of weakness from us rather than a sign of the overwhelming strength of our position.

I'm not even going to try to better the arguments put forward as explanation for Stalin and Mao, because, once again, that argument has been put to death and yet somehow managed to still survive so many times I'm starting to believe in resurrection! It was the evil nature of the individuals, coupled with the intelligence that would have spawned their atheism in the first place, put on top of their obvious personal love of power and dogma that created those atrocities, not the fact that they were atheists! The people who keep pulling out this ridiculous argument have got to accept the fact that it has been destroyed so many times that it should be embarrassing to be caught using it!

I swear to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, one more article like this and my head is going to explode!

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20. Comment #117853 by croatcat on January 29, 2008 at 8:14 pm

 avatarOpishthokont
some (occasionally the same ones) say that atheists claim that humans are "just another animal".


Actually I have been coming to this conclusion. Albeit highly intelligent, still just another animal, subject to the same death as all other species. How arrogant to believe we are "better" than other animals. God plays into the hand of this destructive separation. Domination by ordination.

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21. Comment #117858 by pkruger on January 29, 2008 at 8:53 pm

Oh the things people say when they know they're wrong.

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22. Comment #117882 by eno on January 29, 2008 at 10:48 pm

As Dan Dennett said at the AAI conference last year: "They're on the run..."

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23. Comment #117883 by dragonfirematrix on January 29, 2008 at 10:53 pm

Below are a couple of quotes from the article with my comments following:

# 1

"Books advocating atheism have recently been enjoying a modest boomlet. Sales are solid, book readings are sold out, and their authors grace the highbrow talk shows and op-ed pages in prestigious newspapers and periodicals. But their arguments are shopworn,"

MY COMMENT: I am certainly glad to hear that some reason is making its way into mainstream society. Dr. Dawkins, Sam Harris, and others are leading the way.

However, even in the first paragraph of the article, "shopworn" is slap the face of reason. If one thinks the arguments of atheism are "shopworn," then one need only look more closely at the thousands of years the religious have had to get their (expletive) right but still failed. Exactly, how much time do the religious need to get their (tastefully omitted vulgarism) right?

It is time to hand the baton to systems of reason. It is time to put the hate, oppression, and the belief in fantasies (as reality) behind us. It is time to subordinate (to inferior) religion.

# 2

"Philosophers attacked religious belief for the opposite failing: for its attempt to extinguish an accessible and realizable happiness in the "real" world in favor of an imaginary happiness in the afterlife."

MY COMMENT: This paragraph in the article gives me a headache reading it. However, it is accurate and reasonable to attack religious beliefs for failing. There are the poor, the sick, the terminally ill, the suffering, the starving, the disabled, and the deformed, etc. This has been going on forever. We need not look further to accuse religion of failing.

I have always had problems with the religious promising happiness in an afterlife. Of course, one must believe in the religious recruiter's version of god to realized blessings in the afterlife, and recruit must not question the existence of the recruiter's god for that is a sin denying the recruit the blessings of the afterlife.

Bear with my thoughts for a moment :)

Promising someone a bountiful afterlife is to exercise fraudulence to coerce the blinded recruit into joining a cult (See F-1). A promise of green fields, a temperate climate, a room in god's house, dinner with Jesus, a good cigar, seeing friends and beloved ones again, or 75 virgins is all (expletive starting with "b," two "l" in the middle, ending in "it"). And on, and on, and on, infinitum…

F-1: To me, all religions are cults. It is just that some cults are larger than other cults, and the larger cults simply claim to be mainstream religions.

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24. Comment #117885 by Patrick McArdle on January 29, 2008 at 11:01 pm

Here in the States, we're used to unsophisticated Protestant fundamentalists as the keepers of the bigoted, anti-free-thought flame. (The flame which burns all those evil books by Mr. Darwin.) Good to see we've still got educated Catholics to pile on the stupid.

I hope the good father theocrat has read enough of Nietzsche to recognize this thought: many humans will continue to live in the shadows of the fallen gods for centuries. Those of us out in the light will continue to dodge the rocks you throw from your dark existence, 'father'.

Whenever some Catholic makes the Hitler = atheist argument, I keep waiting for some evidence that Hitler wasn't religious. They never provide it; like the number of Catholics excommunicated for killing Jews in the Holocaust (zero), this premise simply exists with no value to support it. It's not resurrection in which we should believe; it's levitation.

As the rejoinder notes, this stuff doesn't even rise to the level of being wrong; it's just contrafactual. Well, as we liberals say here in the States, "reality has a well-known liberal bias."

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25. Comment #117886 by theantitheist on January 29, 2008 at 11:09 pm

Dragon Fire Matrix

To me, all religions are cults. It is just that some cults are larger than other cults, and the larger cults simply claim to be mainstream religions


I'd argue this definition, i'd state that a cult is "a organisation that uses a knowingly false set of beliefs and dogma for their hierarchies benefit" and a religion is a "a organisation that uses a set of beliefs and dogma for their hierarchies benefit"

The only really differance being that the top man made it up and uses it for his earthly purpose whereas a religion is so established that it's new generations top man/men believe there own shit. All it takes is time but Cults can and do become religion. See Mormanism.

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26. Comment #117891 by Justanotheratheist on January 29, 2008 at 11:35 pm

Such a torrent of verbal garbage to simply come up with the same old crap. It's enough to give me a splitting headache.

If I am reading this nonsense correctly, the suggestion that lack of belief in something must be proof of that something's existence must take the cake in the all-time desperation stakes.

I hope that I have misunderstood, because by that logic there must perforce also be a Father Christmas, an Easter Bunny, a tooth fairy, and an orbiting teapot in space.

Nor can God be proved by rational demonstration. Quite the opposite, in fact. The evidence for his non-existence swamps the so-called evidence of his existence. For now. I'll keep an open mind, but I can't imagine I will ever need to change it.

Lastly, instead of going "gee wow etc." this clown will actually answer the S64 million question: who did create god?

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27. Comment #117892 by Justanotheratheist on January 29, 2008 at 11:37 pm

Sorry: that last sentence should have read will this clown answer the $64 million question. My mind was so bamboozled by that torrent of illogixcal sewerage that I couldn't even type straight.

And I write for a living (more or less)!

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28. Comment #117900 by Styrer- on January 30, 2008 at 12:02 am

For they at least, unlike Dawkins, Harris, Daniel Dennett and Christopher Hitchens, can see that after Nietzsche a moral critique of the Christian God has become impossible, for it denies the very presupposition that makes its own critique possible.


Like Abraham asking if the Lord God of justice could not himself do justice, protest atheism must accept the very norms that Nietzsche showed are essential to the meaning of belief.


It's a heavy read, but these quotes seem to me to be the key to this verbose, hackneyed, pseudo-intellectual nonsense.

To paraphrase the whole piece:

'Believe in this shit, you'll get it. If you don't, you won't.'

Nothing new, folks. Were you holding your breath?

Ignore. (The ignorant faithheads won't understand a word anyway, so this 'piece' will not be a threat.)

Seriously. Ignore. Those tapping away fiercely to condemn and take to task this bullshit have already granted it too much importance here (including me).

Bugger off and read an informative archive or something.

Best,
Styrer

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29. Comment #117912 by Roland_F on January 30, 2008 at 1:23 am

Ah, so many stupidities, so many fallacies, so much biased interpretation of facts, so little time!

Actually it's not so little time it's a far too long sermon. Still astonishing how to write so many crap and distortions of facts.
So the religion is not responsible for 2000 years of bloody history, it's all the atheists fault ?? Does this guys ever read their holy Bible - the most blood dripping, rude, genocide hailing book ever assembled ?!
And the old argument of Hitler and Stalin as 'proof' all atheists are insane mass murders. Beside Hitler did the Holocausts (1) in the name of God, (2) to fulfill God's will, (3) with support of the Catholic church in Germany and (4) with the blessing of the pope, and he didn't start the Holocaust for the reason that there is no God (= atheism).
Also it's a stupid habit of linking Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao & Co to the camp of the opponent, which proofs nothing only the hopelessness of the author. Hitler and Stalin had brown hair …ergo all people with brown hair are insane mass murders, Hitler was vegetarian .. ergo all vegetarian are insane mass murders …etc… what a nonsense.

There are billions of atheists on the planet and for this E.T. Oakes they are all the same and following the simple assignment rules:
Evolution = Eugenics. Survival of the fittest is NOT survival of the strongest but the survival of the best adapted, and if a small body used less calories it might be much better fitted for survival than a much bigger more resource consuming body.

atheists = Marxists : Marx was propagating equality of all people and to free themselves from suppression of feudal masters which uses the church as conspirator for the suppression, uses religion as 'opium for the masses' and the promise of the afterlife in Paradise to bear the current poor living condition. What on earth has this ideals to do with the extermination of 'unworthy' life forms ?!

And these far fetched purposely distorted polemics continue instead of any valid argument.
Given these hopelessly confused and superficial arguments, it's hard to take the new atheism seriously

The joke of the week ! 400 years of science and technology advances are superficial and confused ?!
Possibly these theists are the ones which can't be taken seriously as they are relying solely on 2500 year old fictitious fairy tales, scribbled on sheep skin from primitive middle east desert tribe often self contradicting plus the later added stories of the recycled Egyptian 4000 years old myth of a resurrected Horus son of virgin Isis - now called Jesus son of virgin Mary. This basis sounds more superficial and confused.

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30. Comment #117915 by Corylus on January 30, 2008 at 1:26 am

 avatarI enjoyed the comments on here taking this article apart serious stamina shown :-)

I'm lazy though and tend to respond to this sort of thing, not by making arguments for atheism, but instead to question the person spewing such drivel what they think about the morality of those people who adhere to other religions.

E.g. "Are you seriously implying that the Jews/hindus/Sikhs etc. are immoral and prone to violence because they have no 'Christian morality'?"

The automatic backtracking and protestations of mutual respect and different ways of knowing and the worth of moral philosophy are vastly entertaining.

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31. Comment #117920 by clodhopper on January 30, 2008 at 1:45 am

 avatar
Against these realities, all that the new atheists can offer is only the most jejune, wan, and bloodless humanism


Gosh, I didn't know we had so much to offer.

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32. Comment #117921 by Nighttripper on January 30, 2008 at 1:47 am

 avatar
My Goodness, they are getting so desperate to rebut the so called "New" atheist movement (yeah that old one just didn't do anymore, we got shockabsorbers and powersteering now...). I mean, how do they cram so many falacies into one article without the universe folding in on itself?

It would almost be pityful if they wouldn't be so hardheaded to bring up the same old arguments and intentional lies over and over again. But hey, old arguments and intentional lies are what religion is built on.


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33. Comment #117927 by irate_atheist on January 30, 2008 at 2:05 am

 avatarThese people are full of more shit than a sewage farm.

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34. Comment #117930 by Verylee on January 30, 2008 at 2:32 am

 avatarThe popularity of the Atheism books written for the layman, the exposure of the televangelists and the emptying of churches has caught the religious institutions on the hop. They tried to fight back with accusations of "rants" and "shrill", "Hitler, Pol Pot" etc and they have been shown wanting. Now they are just spreading as much shit around as they can ....It's not aimed at Atheists in particular....but everyone, in the hope that some of it sticks and people back off investigating the cosy little racket they've been milking for the past few millenia. We don't want people to think and start asking questions now, do we?

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35. Comment #117936 by Duff on January 30, 2008 at 2:55 am

The good Jesuit father solved one of the most philosophical conundrums with the wave of his jebus wand.
"If god created the world, who created god?" Has confounded thinkers since there were thinkers. He brushes it off by stating it is a "dorm room question", or something like that. ( I don't have the courage to go back to that stupid article and search for the exact quote.)

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36. Comment #117938 by irate_atheist on January 30, 2008 at 3:09 am

 avatar36. Comment #117936 by Duff -

I refer you to my comment #117927 above.

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37. Comment #117942 by notsobad on January 30, 2008 at 3:21 am

 avatarEdward T. Oakes,
learn what 'fittest' means in biology before you want to write books.

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38. Comment #117944 by _J_ on January 30, 2008 at 3:27 am

 avatarWell chosen quote, clodhopper (32).

Compare:

1 a definition of humanism (in this case from Wikipedia, but any common definition, including the most basic, will do):
Humanism is a broad category of ethical philosophies that affirm the dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appeal to universal human qualities—particularly rationality.

with

2 Our friendly neighbourhood Jesuit's opinion:
[...] jejune, wan, and bloodless humanism

What a bleak, unsympathetic perspective of 'the dignity and worth of all people'. Like a fantasist hooked on Second Life, Oakes' addiction to the dramatic extremes of his mythology and 'the terrifying character of nature' leaves him unable to be moved by reality. Of course he can't give it up - no, we must all join in his addiction. And, if we do, maybe his verbose assemblage of straw men and selectivity will no longer stand out as the sorry excuse for an argument that it is.

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39. Comment #117949 by jaytee_555 on January 30, 2008 at 3:42 am

By writing this article, Oakes has greatly contributed to the body of evidence that has persuaded many perceptive people that Jesuits are the most slippery and willfully dishonest of theists.

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40. Comment #117966 by Azven on January 30, 2008 at 5:11 am

 avatarThe first article is so full of errors and misunderstandings and, I suspect, downright deliberate obfuscations that is was hard to wade through it. I don't need to point out any of the problems because I'd be preaching to the choir. However, why is it that theists seem to think that no new arguments for atheism (even if that's true) is a point for theists?
But … [atheist's] arguments are shopworn, stale hand-me-downs and threadbare heirlooms inherited from an era that was fading away even before the French Revolution



Instead, and my reason for writing, it to say how refreshing professor Lynch's rebuttal was; well written, well referenced and actually interesting – even though I have very little interest in Marx. Plus one of the best scholarly smack-downs I've seen in years,
possibly the longest ellipsis known to scholarship.


Thank you Prof. John M. Lynch

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41. Comment #117968 by Azven on January 30, 2008 at 5:14 am

 avatarBTW: My daughter read this author's name as Edward T. Cakes (Edward Tea Cakes), which made me chuckle, so I thought I'd share.

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42. Comment #117970 by pedlar on January 30, 2008 at 5:16 am

(Chrono Tata at #117811 got there first but I still can't let this go ... )

From Oakes' last paragraph: "... these recent tub-thumping accusations that believers are the sole source of violence."

... the sole source of violence ... ?

Show me one such quote.

Liar.

Liar.

Liar.

Liar.

Liar.

Liar.

...


P.S. Liar.

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43. Comment #117971 by Vaal on January 30, 2008 at 5:23 am

 avatarThe Somme of Straw men. Hardly even worth pointing a weapon at such poor mud slinging. The absurdities of the arguments speak for themselves.

With the proliferation of fleas, I have yet to hear one sound argument, just the usual Stalin/Hitler obscurantism.
Come on boys, you can do better, surely??

Perhaps all this vacuous bleating is all you have got, no wonder you are on the run!

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44. Comment #117974 by phasmagigas on January 30, 2008 at 5:33 am

 avatarso this oakes bloke thinks that atheism leads to might is right and all that.

Hmm, so does that mean i should be looking at my dogs, and seeing the physically weakest one (the smallest) as having no right to live, so i should kill it, oh but then that leaves the second smallest dog being the weakest, should i kill that one too, and my strongest dog, well compared to the neighbours rottweiler he a baby so i'll kill that too, in fact maybe I should become an atheist whirling dervish of destruction and just kill and destroy everything in my path, actually im not sure i know how to do that very efficiently, but i know of a few faithful who do, it involves strapping bombs to my body.

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45. Comment #117976 by irate_atheist on January 30, 2008 at 5:38 am

 avatar45. Comment #117974 by phasmagigas -

Well, other well known atheists such as George W. Bush and Tony Blair have been going around starting the occasional war. Oh, hang on, what's that you say? They're believers? But, but, but...does not compute. Oakes - you're not even a halfwit.

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46. Comment #117978 by Ian (South Africa) on January 30, 2008 at 5:43 am

 avatarThis was arguably one of the most obscure, turgid and blatantly mendacious articles that I have ever plowed 'sic' through. It made me want to beat myself to death with my own keyboard.

I imagine that his classrooms must be like an abbatoir with former students slumped over their desks the stumps of pencils protruding from their bloody eyes and ears, a testament to the lethal extremes one will go to in order to avoid the mental anguish this man must inflict at at close quarters.

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47. Comment #117980 by phasmagigas on January 30, 2008 at 5:54 am

 avatar
I am reminded of a little known fact from the Scopes "Monkey Trial." Clarence Darrow was the progress-happy lawyer for the evolution-teaching defendant, and how much he has anticipated the new atheists! As Peter Berger dryly noted in his book A Rumor of Angels, Darrow was "an admirable man in many ways, but one dense enough sincerely to believe that a Darwinist view of man could serve as a basis for his opposition to capital punishment." Such obtuseness is shared by most liberals today, who merrily fuse opposition to capital punishment, support for abortion and doctor-assisted suicide, condemnation of racism, and a vaguely appreciative acquaintance with evolutionary theory—without the least sense of the impossible dilemmas entailed in these contradictory positions.


im not sure what this guy is actually saying, does he actually believe that atheists (or 'liberals') decide upon all because of their 'vaguely appreciative acquaintence with evolutionary theory' and that somehow makes it impossible to on one hand oppose death (capital punishment) and on the other to support it (assisted suicide).

Is he opposed to their reasoning or their positions?? and what has evolutionary theory got to do with capital punishment or assisted suicide or abortion anyway.

oakes is a blundering fool, what hes basically saying is that if you accept evolutionary theory that means to do anything vaguely 'nice' puts you in an impossible dilemma, so your reasons are wrong so goddit!

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48. Comment #117982 by Rationalist1 on January 30, 2008 at 5:57 am

I'll try to finish this article later, maybe not on a full stomach. But I must say it's hard to take seriously an article from a person who thinks a cracker is God.

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49. Comment #117983 by rod-the-farmer on January 30, 2008 at 5:57 am

 avatarIs it just me, or does this particular SJ character have a bad case of quotis obscurantis ? I didn't finish university, and although I consider myself moderately well-read, I don't think in one single article I have seen so many references to people I have never heard of before. I agree with the previous comment about SJ being famous for their logic at one time. This guy has single-handedly brought down the reputation of the entire order. And all this focus on the French Revolution ? Ahh....I don't see the relevance to 2008, and in particular to 9/11.

I too choked on so much of this guys reasoning. To paraphrase Groucho Marx,
"The internet lets you read about people in your living room that you would not want near your house."

As Dan Dennett said at the AAI conference last year: "They're on the run..."

I hope we are closing in on Gandhis' thinking,
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."

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50. Comment #117984 by phasmagigas on January 30, 2008 at 6:10 am

 avatarif i walk down a street in a rough neighbourhood in the USA I will be minding my own business as normal, i wouldn't deliberately attack or rob anybody, call names or intimitade anyone, if that same happens to me i wonder what the chances are of that person believing in god? Quite high methinks. On a few occasions i have been so hassled (not robbed/attacked thankfully) but i wonder if i should ask the next guy, 'do you beleive in god'?

Thats doesnt say that the belief made him do it but it does say it doesnt actually stop it.

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