1. Comment #124836 by Diacanu on February 10, 2008 at 10:55 am

*Applause*

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2. Comment #124845 by Styrer- on February 10, 2008 at 11:06 am

Absolutely superb. Typically thrusting opinions, magnificently expressed.

Keep up the good work, Pat.

Best,
Styrer

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3. Comment #124847 by Negasta on February 10, 2008 at 11:10 am

For goodness sake!!!

Why can't the British (and the European people in general) just tell the Muslims to piss off and go back to Arabia if they want Sharia?!

Other Comments by Negasta

4. Comment #124849 by action1976 on February 10, 2008 at 11:12 am

Keep up the good work Pat.
Another good Video as usual.

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5. Comment #124852 by Radesq on February 10, 2008 at 11:14 am

Humor and satire are among the most effective tools for knocking down fraudulent or fatuous beliefs. Pat seems to me to be one of the very best at using these tools. Although, the first video is pretty straight forward until the last 30 seconds (the best part imho).

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6. Comment #124854 by Steve Zara on February 10, 2008 at 11:17 am

Pat seems to me to be one of the very best at using these tools.

What about George Carlin?

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7. Comment #124856 by Lucas on February 10, 2008 at 11:20 am

Hear hear. The biggest problem with liberal democracy at this point is its "bedwetter" attitude. As an extreme lefty American, I wouldn't exactly suggest waterboarding and deportation as ways of dealing with extremist Muslims, and I'm horrified with the macho attitude taken by my government in recent years. However, there is a limit. It is time to show true grit. We must stand forcefully upon our principles without shattering them in the process. Its not an easy balance, but we should insist on it. Tolerance, not acquiesence.

Other Comments by Lucas

8. Comment #124857 by Diacanu on February 10, 2008 at 11:20 am

Edit- To Steve.

Carlin is the closest thing I have to a God.

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9. Comment #124858 by bujin on February 10, 2008 at 11:20 am

We need Pat to have his own regular 5 minute slot on national TV! Maybe just after the news or something.

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10. Comment #124861 by Richard Morgan on February 10, 2008 at 11:26 am

Negasta :

Why can't the British (and the European people in general) just tell the Muslims to piss off and go back to Arabia if they want Sharia?!

Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the waves...
Land of hope and glory...
And did those feet in ancient times..
Oops, excuse me, just felt like a little sing-song.
Hope my choice of songs didn't make anybody feel too uncomfortable.
The sun never sets on the British Empire...well, perhaps it does now. I'm referring to the "good" old days.
Of course, Pat makes valid points in a direct and simple manner. The solutions, Negasta, are urgently needed, but they cannot be simple, I'm afraid.

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

11. Comment #124862 by jakelovatto on February 10, 2008 at 11:27 am

bujin
Like Peter Griffins
"You Know What Really Grinds My Gears?"

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12. Comment #124864 by Diacanu on February 10, 2008 at 11:28 am

Richard-

That's what it is, empire guilt?

Well, you guys can't let yourselves get too emo about the guilt, or it becomes suicidal.

Other Comments by Diacanu

13. Comment #124865 by joshuaslocum on February 10, 2008 at 11:28 am

Lucas, #7, - it took only 7 posts for one of the bedwetters over at Pharyngula to get into a right snit. A poster named "call" wrote this about Condell's video:


"Well, there are two blatant lies in the couple of minutes (about polygamy and hate speech), so I stopped there. There are a lot of right-wing racist nutters frothing at the mouth about "Islamics" these days, and this is just another one (though he may not realise it himself). Why not just point us to what the Daily Mail (the paper that supported Hitler) is saying about it?"


To which I replied:

"Call, perhaps you haven't been reading the papers. The British government did, in fact, approve of giving extra social benefits to men with multiple wives. From the International Herald Tribune:

'LONDON: British men who marry several women in a country where polygamy is allowed can legally claim welfare benefits for all of them, a government review has concluded.

Polygamy is illegal in Britain, but the Department for Work and Pensions said Saturday that its yearlong review of welfare regulations dating back to 1987 found that men who marry several women legally in other countries can maintain those relationships here and claim welfare benefits for each one.

The ministry estimates that up to 1,000 polygamous relationships exist in Britain, and the ruling is expected to primarily benefit members of the Muslim minority who married elsewhere under Islamic law.'

Call, Madam or Sir, are you going to acknowledge that this is a fact, and not a 'blatant lie?'

Condemning the societal tolerance for oppressive, unfair religious practices that degrade the idea of universal civil rights is not right wing racist nuttery. It's the purest expression of liberal values that value human beings as human beings, not as pawns in a politico-religious game. I am God-damned sick of my fellow liberals abandoning these values and having the stupidity and gall to hector the rest of us and call us racist right wingers for defending the values of human rights that YOU ought to be defending too.

Why do commentors like you want to bend over backwards to disbelieve that some very serious breaches of liberal, democratic values really, really are happening? Whence comes this desperate emotional need to defend the indefensible, and to accuse those who stand up for fairness of being bigots? I cannot understand this. "

And no, I don't expect I'll get any acknowledgment from "call" that he or she ejaculated an emotional, fact-free response.

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14. Comment #124871 by AllanW on February 10, 2008 at 11:33 am

Yep, I just had a go at call on pharyngula as well. An example of a situation when one can bend so far backwards that ones head disappears up ones own arse.

Other Comments by AllanW

15. Comment #124872 by joshuaslocum on February 10, 2008 at 11:37 am

I'm glad you did, Allan. I commend you for being able to keep your temper to a low simmer - "call" took me past the boiling point.

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16. Comment #124873 by Richard Morgan on February 10, 2008 at 11:37 am

Diacanu

That's what it is, empire guilt?

Not guilt, my fine transatlantic friend, (though I must admit it might look like that!) but just a way of pointing out to simplistic posters that certain problems could be more complex than they appear. Often the solutions are not as simple as some might think them to be.
As a teacher, I am well used to receiving complaints from angry parents about the "trouble-makers" in their children's classes. "Can't you just expel them, or make them stay at home or flog them in public?" they ask.
The answer is "No, we can't" and the reasons for refusing sharp, swift methods are usually too complicated for the angry parents.
I can understand them perfectly well, they have my sympathy, but....

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

17. Comment #124876 by Peacebeuponme on February 10, 2008 at 11:38 am

What about George Carlin?

Or Stuart Lee.

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18. Comment #124877 by Paula Kirby on February 10, 2008 at 11:38 am

bujin: We need Pat to have his own regular 5 minute slot on national TV! Maybe just after the news or something.

Or how about having him as a regular on Thought for the Day? That would wake a few people up!

Other Comments by Paula Kirby

19. Comment #124878 by Radesq on February 10, 2008 at 11:39 am

Dr. Steve & Diacanu: George Carlin has been a master of it over the years...please forgive me if I think he has lost a little off his fastball these days.

By the way if you see Artful Dodger posting anywhere tell him I finally got the joke...Artful Dodger was also referred to as Master Dawkins in Oliver Twist. Sorry for being slow on the uptake but I only saw the movie musical.

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20. Comment #124880 by Quetzalcoatl on February 10, 2008 at 11:43 am

Another good video. Pretty much every one he does is on the ball.

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21. Comment #124881 by Richard Morgan on February 10, 2008 at 11:43 am

Paula!
You're back!
Hallelujah!
And just when I was getting used to the idea that resurrection is a myth!!!
Back to the drawing board.
(Very, very happy to see you again, incidentally.)
(Well, very happy, at least.)

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

22. Comment #124884 by BaronOchs on February 10, 2008 at 11:46 am

joshuaslocum I don't understand that why are men claiming welfare for their wives in the first place? can't those women just claim their own individual benefits?

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23. Comment #124887 by Radesq on February 10, 2008 at 11:47 am

7. Comment #124856 by Lucas
RE: deporting Muslims

I was very surprised to hear in the Hitchens/Jackson debate clips this Biblical nugget from Leviticus 19:

33 " 'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Have US religious conservatives been made aware of this passage? Mike Huckabee better start taking to task the xenophobes in his party (otherwise known as the Romney base voters).

Other Comments by Radesq

24. Comment #124888 by seals on February 10, 2008 at 11:49 am

A blast of fresh air - I love it!

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25. Comment #124889 by Matt7895 on February 10, 2008 at 11:50 am

Why can't the British (and the European people in general) just tell the Muslims to piss off and go back to Arabia if they want Sharia?!

Believe me I'd love to. But saying such a thing, in today's PC climate, would be seen as racist and you'd probably be likened to the BNP and other far-right parties. There's about a million Muslims in the country now (not much compared to 59 million non-Muslims), but they want more than their fair share, and when they don't get it they whine and play the oppressed minority card.

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26. Comment #124894 by joshuaslocum on February 10, 2008 at 11:53 am

BaronOchs #22 - I don't know the answer to your question. Maybe some of our UK friends do, or maybe the only people who do are the gov't ministers who came up with the scheme in the first place?

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27. Comment #124895 by Paine on February 10, 2008 at 11:55 am

Why can't the British (and the European people in general) just tell the Muslims to piss off and go back to Arabia if they want Sharia?!

that's an easy one. it's because the Europeans spent centuries going over to the Muslim countries plundering, enslaving and destroying people in their own countries. It's difficult to adopt the moral high ground with people you have been oppressing for hundreds of years.

Ofcourse, nowadays the Europeans seem too stupid to realise that post-colonial guilt does not mean compromising on right and wrong.

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28. Comment #124896 by Adam Morrison on February 10, 2008 at 11:58 am

Pat hits the nail squarely on the head. Now if gov't could display even half that courage and decisiveness we wouldn't be in half the mess we are now.

Other Comments by Adam Morrison

29. Comment #124897 by Richard Morgan on February 10, 2008 at 11:58 am

Paine :

post-colonial guilt does not mean compromising on right and wrong.

Ah, if only things were as simple as that...

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

30. Comment #124898 by AllanW on February 10, 2008 at 11:59 am

I don't know anywhere near enough to answer in detail BaronOchs but some benefits are claimable as an individual and some as a member of a marriage or family.

Tax allowances, for example, may be claimed for being married. Family allowance has recently been changed but is still claimed, I think, by the wife on behalf of children. Sickness and invalidity benefits are normally claimed by the claimant but may be assessed in conjunction with other benefits that are mutual or tied to marital status.

Other Comments by AllanW

31. Comment #124900 by Goldy on February 10, 2008 at 12:04 pm

Why can't the British (and the European people in general) just tell the Muslims to piss off and go back to Arabia if they want Sharia?!

Mostly because the vast majority don't want sharia and don't want an Islamicisation of the countries they live in (and indeed were born in). The media, and, truth be said, we, are condemning a whole group of people for the actions of a few hotheads and those that have drunk deep from the cup of perceived power (you can tell how deeply they quaffed by the piss they are coming out with now).
There appears to be a worldwide malaise with Islam, see how it is fast vanishing back to an idealised age of peity, an age that, had it actually existed, Muslims today would be but a minor cult in the Arabian peninsula and Mecca would be Jewish.
Besides, if the story I heard on the BBC is correct, we don't have to wait too long before the word cretin will have to be changed....http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7237663.stm
Apparently there's Islamophobia in this too...

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32. Comment #124901 by joshuaslocum on February 10, 2008 at 12:04 pm

Richard M, #29 -

You're right, things are never as simple as they seem. And the West's history of imperialism muddies the water considerably. There are, however, lines that need to be drawn in the sand. We can disagree over what those are, and all of us should be open to having our minds changed by reasonable discourse. Some of those lines, however, really aren't that "problematic." Universal franchise. No wife-beating. No discrimination against gays. No requiring women to have two witnesses in court when a man gets only one. It's these simple, clear violations of what we all (hopefully) hold as sacred (if you'll pardon the term) values that need to be called out immediately, not theorized or waffled over.

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33. Comment #124911 by Steve Zara on February 10, 2008 at 12:12 pm

Why can't the British (and the European people in general) just tell the Muslims to piss off and go back to Arabia if they want Sharia?!

Because Britain and Europe in general are representative democraties. Civilized representative democracies attempt to prevent the views of majorities swamping those of minorities. They act as a buffer, so that views can be carefully considered over time, as against reacting to the whims of public opinion.

In Britain we have a substantial Muslim population. We have no choice but to engage in discussion.

It is fine, and even amusing, for people to rant. The problem is it doesn't actually solve anything. If there is a demand from some for sharia principles to be incorporated into law, we need to accept that the demand is there, and figure out how to deal with the demand, even if the consequences are (hopefully) to show that it can't be met

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34. Comment #124913 by Diacanu on February 10, 2008 at 12:16 pm

Steve-

Well, fundamentalist islam is flat out incompatible with liberal democracy.

Thomas Jefferson knew this way back with the Barbary pirates.

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35. Comment #124917 by Peacebeuponme on February 10, 2008 at 12:19 pm

Well, fundamentalist islam is flat out incompatible with liberal democracy

But its not flat out incompatible with democracy. Being that democracy is not perfect, we need to make sure that we educuate and lead people away from dogma.

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36. Comment #124918 by Radesq on February 10, 2008 at 12:19 pm

RE: Dr. Steve@33 ...and figure out how to deal with the demand, even if the consequences are (hopefully) to show that it won't be met

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37. Comment #124919 by Goldy on February 10, 2008 at 12:20 pm

From the BBC's HYS (http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=4246&edition=2&ttl=20080210201854)

Added: Sunday, 10 February, 2008, 17:11 GMT 17:11 UK

As a British born, scarf wearing Muslim, I am quite upset about the Archbishop's comments as they have nothing but stir up in people the 'if they don't like it here they can go' type feelings-yet again. Most of us Muslims are law abiding and good citizens who have no problem observing the laws in this country and have not asked for anything else. We are happy living here, interegrated and have no wish to go anywhere else.

M Malik, UK/US

As you can see, all this sharia nonsense doesn't integrate them any and doesn't make them feel any more comfortable.

Other Comments by Goldy

38. Comment #124920 by Steve Zara on February 10, 2008 at 12:22 pm

Well, fundamentalist islam is flat out incompatible with liberal democracy.

Indeed, and this is one of the great issues for Europe in the near future, I believe. How does a liberal democracy cope if it contains a significant minority who disagree with the liberal attitude?

Oh, and regarding another post:

Stewart Lee

One of my favourites. Brilliant. And, incidently, very cute.

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39. Comment #124922 by Goldy on February 10, 2008 at 12:24 pm

If there is a demand from some for sharia principles to be incorporated into law, we need to accept that the demand is there, and figure out how to deal with the demand, even if the consequences are (hopefully) to show that it can't be met

luckily, methinks the demands of a minority within a minority will ensure it is kept where it currently is in British law.

Other Comments by Goldy

40. Comment #124925 by jimbob on February 10, 2008 at 12:26 pm

The idea that needs to be told to "piss off," is the idea that laws (and government) should be based in religious dogma. Sharia is, of course, particularly obnoxious, but so too is any level of "official" religion.

Folks in the UK need to become more familiar with the term "disestablishment," and folks in the USA need judges who give more credence to the constitution than to the vatican (Oops, sorry, forgot that religious bias on the bench doesn't qualify as "judicial activism!"

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41. Comment #124928 by octopus on February 10, 2008 at 12:32 pm

Why can't the British (and the European people in general) just tell the Muslims to piss off and go back to Arabia if they want Sharia?!

Well, I guess British atheists will have to piss off to Sweden then...or maybe even China.


Other Comments by octopus

42. Comment #124934 by Bonzai on February 10, 2008 at 12:44 pm

USA need judges who give more credence to the constitution than to the vatican

The Vatican??!! I think the Protestantism, not Catholicism, is the established religion of the U.S.A.

Other Comments by Bonzai

43. Comment #124935 by ridelo on February 10, 2008 at 12:45 pm

It's for people like this one that I'm a bit of an Anglophile. So to the point.
No wonder Darwin and Dawkins were sired there.

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44. Comment #124936 by Bonzai on February 10, 2008 at 12:45 pm

On a unrelated issue, does anyone know what happens to the "preview" option for posting?

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45. Comment #124940 by Diacanu on February 10, 2008 at 12:54 pm

Steve Zara-

Indeed, and this is one of the great issues for Europe in the near future, I believe. How does a liberal democracy cope if it contains a significant minority who disagree with the liberal attitude?

Well,...don't know what to tell ya.

Try to reason respectively...but seems you've tried that, and got bad compromises for your troubles...

Tell 'em to take a flying fuck off a rolling donut like Pat Condell suggests seems the next step.

If they dig in their feet,...well, sad to say, lead might have to fly.

Yeah, you sweet tea sipping types can't handle that, it's okay, you don't have to, you limeys have rednecks, chavs I think you call 'em, arm your chavs, pump 'em full of propaganda, aim 'em in the right direction.

I really, really, really, really, hope it doesn't come to that though, but...if it crosses a certain threshold...what else ya gonna do?

The run away to Switzerland option I hear a lot, but come on...

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46. Comment #124941 by Goldy on February 10, 2008 at 12:58 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/a-question-of-honour-police-say-17000-women-are-victims-every-year-780522.html

See what the media say now? Look what RW unleashed. I tell you, we don't need a revolution in the UK, the demonisation is getting stronger.

The run away to Switzerland option I hear a lot, but come on...

Dunno about that - takes a lifetime to get accepted and citizenship, and woe betide if you pissed one neighbour off - they can put a screeching halt to your citizenship application in no time flat. Mind you, if you are white, I guess it isn't as much a problem....

Other Comments by Goldy

47. Comment #124945 by Melomel on February 10, 2008 at 1:03 pm

Best line: "I would say that we should be ashamed of ourselves, but we already are - which is why this is happening."

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48. Comment #124948 by Steve Zara on February 10, 2008 at 1:17 pm

I really, really, really, really, hope it doesn't come to that though, but...if it crosses a certain threshold...what else ya gonna do?

I have faith in people, I really do. If South Africa could become a true democracy without bloodshed, and if long-term and bloody disputes like Northern Ireland can end peacefully, then there must be hope.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

49. Comment #124949 by joshuaslocum on February 10, 2008 at 1:19 pm

Goldy, #46:

"See what the media say now? Look what RW unleashed. I tell you, we don't need a revolution in the UK, the demonisation is getting stronger. "

Goldy, I realize I may be misinterpreting what you said, but please help to understand it. What "demonisation" are you talking about? That Independent article cited gov't statistics showing that 17,000 women in Britain are victims of "honour violence." It recounted the stories of girls raped and murdered by male relatives or hired killers, for the "crime" of choosing their own love interests.

Please - how is this "demonisation?" And of whom? I'm trying really hard to understand how this report could be called evidence of demonisation. Do I misunderstand you? Is this report not pointing horrific, evil things done to British women that must be stopped?

Other Comments by joshuaslocum

50. Comment #124950 by D'Arcy on February 10, 2008 at 1:20 pm

I'm quite sure that "given enough time", Islam will be tamed by modern capitalism in much the same way that Christianity was. (Christian values: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. If your eye offend you pluck it out, same with the arm).

The Saudi state may well be propagating "fundamental" Islam, but it is doing so precisely because it wants to keep itself in power (forever if possible). Religion has long been used as a force for oppression.

In Britain the Labour government has been in favour of "faith" schools not because of the particular flavour of the faith, but because they seemingly provide low cost social control. If people behave themselves because their religion has taught them that way, then it must save the state millions on extra police, courts, prisons etc. to coercively enforce the law.

Rowan Williams has lived up to the name of his position, the Archbishop of Cant.

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