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What he wishes on us is an abomination
by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, The Independent
Reposted from:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhaibrown-what-he-wishes-on-us-is-an-abomination-780186.html
'Sharia is nothing but a human concoction of medieval religious opinion
What Rowan Williams wishes upon us is an abomination and I write here as a modern Muslim woman. He lectures the nation on the benefits of sharia law – made by bearded men, for men – and wants the alternative legal system to be accommodated within our democracy in the spirit of inclusion and cohesion.
Pray tell me sir, how do separate and impenetrable courts and schools and extreme female segregation promote commonalities and deep bonds between citizens of these small isles?
What he did on Thursday was to convince other Britons, white, black and brown, that Muslims want not equality but exceptionalism and their own domains. Enlightened British Muslims quail. Friends like this churchman do us more harm than our many enemies. He passes round what he believes to be the benign libation of tolerance. It is laced with arsenic.
He would not want his own girls and women, I am sure, to "choose" to be governed by these laws he breezily endorses. And he is naive to the point of folly if he imagines it is possible to pick and choose the bits that are relatively nice to the girls or ones that seem to dictate honourable financial transactions.
Look around the Islamic world where sharia rules and, in every single country, these ordinances reduce our human value to less than half that is accorded a male; homosexuals are imprisoned or killed, children have no free voice or autonomy, authoritarianism rules and infantilises populations.
What's more, different Muslim nations claim to have their own allegedly god-given sharia. In Saudi Arabia, women cannot drive (What in Allah's name could the Koran have warned about cars?). In Bangladesh and Pakistan, they have no such bar to driving, although increasingly Saudi Wahabi Islam is taking over and we see Saudi sharia taking hold.
It is growing in influence here, too. Ten years ago, the only fully shrouded Muslim women around were from the Arab fiefdoms, the many wives of sheikhs often drawn by cartoonists to convey the absurdity and inhumanity of such cloaks. Now all of Europe has these girls and women rendering themselves invisible in public spaces. It is their elected sharia, so they claim without credibility. There is no agreed body of sharia, it is all drafted by males and the most cruel is now claiming absolute authority.
In Pakistan, on the statutes are strictures on adultery introduced by the military dictator Zia ul-Haq. Women activists in that country have given their lives protesting against the injustice of those laws where women suspected of adultery, or rape victims, are punished in hideous ways and the man goes free.
The Iranian theocracy changes its regulations from year to year, capriciously playing with the lives of females. The morality police hound women and girls, beat them up, imprison them for showing an ankle, walking too provocatively or singing in the streets. They fight back but are ground down eventually.
Two Iranian friends chose to die rather than live under the demeaning religious orders. Go to Afghanistan if you fancy a 12-year-old bride – a practice approved by the mullahs. That's sharia for you. Many women, gay men and dissidents came to Britain to escape Islamic tyrants and their laws. Dr Williams supports those laws and, by default, makes the refugees victims again.
Four years ago, a Saudi woman in her fifties came to my home. She was divorced from a Saudi prince who had sent her away and kept her children. What she said about sharia cannot be repeated. She had money, this princess, but no parental rights and she howled like a child in excruciating pain in my living room.
Yet, family disputes, says Dr Williams, would be easier, within sharia. For whom exactly? The polygamous men who live in this country, yes, certainly. Not for their wives who will be told that God intends them to lower their eyes and accept unjust verdicts.
Many will be sent back to bastard husbands or flinty-eyed mullahs will take their children away. In Bradford and Halifax, they may be forbidden to drive or work where men are employed. Adultery will be punished. I don't think we will have public stonings but violence of some sort will be meted out (it already is) with lawmakers' backing.
Sensing the drift in their direction, British sharia "experts" today shamelessly direct female medical students not to wash their forearms, essential to prevent the spread of infections, because that exposes their flesh.
Does the Archbishop even know that sharia comes in many guises and that several schools of jurisprudence have their own versions? The list is long – Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi, Hanbali, Jafari, Salafi and on and on. Ayatollah Khomeini preferred his DIY set of crimes and punishments when he came to power.
No women are allowed to be imams or serious jurists, so cannot help make their own fair and free set of female-friendly sharia. All the systems insist on ultimate truths, hard certainties. Sharia cannot provide solutions to the complex challenges of modern life and many violate fundamental human rights as established by the United Nations.
Taj Hargey, a historian and Islamic theologian, runs the Muslim Education Centre in Oxford. He, with me, is a trustee of British Muslims For Secular Democracy which is attempting to educate Muslims out of authorised obscurantism and non-Muslims into a better understanding of the progressive and evolutionary nature of the practice of Islam.
He is incandescent that Dr Williams backs a perilous Islamic conservatism, already too powerful in Britain: "Sharia is nothing but a human concoction of medieval religious opinion, largely archaic and outmoded and irrelevant to life today. Most sharia contradicts the letter and spirit of the Koran, distorts the transcendental text."
During his sermons Dr Hargey explains to congregations that, for example there is no blasphemy in the Koran, that the Prophet himself allowed a man to mock the divine revelations. Apostasy, says the holy text, will be dealt with by Allah in the afterlife. Sharia policemen insist apostates should be tortured and killed.
Dr Williams says Muslims want the choice to opt for sharia. What he believes to be choice is, in truth, inner compulsion, the result of brainwashing which begins in the madrassas when girls and boys are young enough to mould.
I have often admired the Archbishop's lofty thoughts, his intellectualism, the passion for human rights, his guts when the Government needs to be chastised. But this time his kind indulgences betray his own invaluable principles and deliver Muslim women, girls and dissidents into the hands of religious persecutors – an unforgivable intervention, which I hope he now sincerely regrets.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhaibrown-what-he-wishes-on-us-is-an-abomination-780186.html
'Sharia is nothing but a human concoction of medieval religious opinion
What Rowan Williams wishes upon us is an abomination and I write here as a modern Muslim woman. He lectures the nation on the benefits of sharia law – made by bearded men, for men – and wants the alternative legal system to be accommodated within our democracy in the spirit of inclusion and cohesion.
Pray tell me sir, how do separate and impenetrable courts and schools and extreme female segregation promote commonalities and deep bonds between citizens of these small isles?
What he did on Thursday was to convince other Britons, white, black and brown, that Muslims want not equality but exceptionalism and their own domains. Enlightened British Muslims quail. Friends like this churchman do us more harm than our many enemies. He passes round what he believes to be the benign libation of tolerance. It is laced with arsenic.
He would not want his own girls and women, I am sure, to "choose" to be governed by these laws he breezily endorses. And he is naive to the point of folly if he imagines it is possible to pick and choose the bits that are relatively nice to the girls or ones that seem to dictate honourable financial transactions.
Look around the Islamic world where sharia rules and, in every single country, these ordinances reduce our human value to less than half that is accorded a male; homosexuals are imprisoned or killed, children have no free voice or autonomy, authoritarianism rules and infantilises populations.
What's more, different Muslim nations claim to have their own allegedly god-given sharia. In Saudi Arabia, women cannot drive (What in Allah's name could the Koran have warned about cars?). In Bangladesh and Pakistan, they have no such bar to driving, although increasingly Saudi Wahabi Islam is taking over and we see Saudi sharia taking hold.
It is growing in influence here, too. Ten years ago, the only fully shrouded Muslim women around were from the Arab fiefdoms, the many wives of sheikhs often drawn by cartoonists to convey the absurdity and inhumanity of such cloaks. Now all of Europe has these girls and women rendering themselves invisible in public spaces. It is their elected sharia, so they claim without credibility. There is no agreed body of sharia, it is all drafted by males and the most cruel is now claiming absolute authority.
In Pakistan, on the statutes are strictures on adultery introduced by the military dictator Zia ul-Haq. Women activists in that country have given their lives protesting against the injustice of those laws where women suspected of adultery, or rape victims, are punished in hideous ways and the man goes free.
The Iranian theocracy changes its regulations from year to year, capriciously playing with the lives of females. The morality police hound women and girls, beat them up, imprison them for showing an ankle, walking too provocatively or singing in the streets. They fight back but are ground down eventually.
Two Iranian friends chose to die rather than live under the demeaning religious orders. Go to Afghanistan if you fancy a 12-year-old bride – a practice approved by the mullahs. That's sharia for you. Many women, gay men and dissidents came to Britain to escape Islamic tyrants and their laws. Dr Williams supports those laws and, by default, makes the refugees victims again.
Four years ago, a Saudi woman in her fifties came to my home. She was divorced from a Saudi prince who had sent her away and kept her children. What she said about sharia cannot be repeated. She had money, this princess, but no parental rights and she howled like a child in excruciating pain in my living room.
Yet, family disputes, says Dr Williams, would be easier, within sharia. For whom exactly? The polygamous men who live in this country, yes, certainly. Not for their wives who will be told that God intends them to lower their eyes and accept unjust verdicts.
Many will be sent back to bastard husbands or flinty-eyed mullahs will take their children away. In Bradford and Halifax, they may be forbidden to drive or work where men are employed. Adultery will be punished. I don't think we will have public stonings but violence of some sort will be meted out (it already is) with lawmakers' backing.
Sensing the drift in their direction, British sharia "experts" today shamelessly direct female medical students not to wash their forearms, essential to prevent the spread of infections, because that exposes their flesh.
Does the Archbishop even know that sharia comes in many guises and that several schools of jurisprudence have their own versions? The list is long – Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi, Hanbali, Jafari, Salafi and on and on. Ayatollah Khomeini preferred his DIY set of crimes and punishments when he came to power.
No women are allowed to be imams or serious jurists, so cannot help make their own fair and free set of female-friendly sharia. All the systems insist on ultimate truths, hard certainties. Sharia cannot provide solutions to the complex challenges of modern life and many violate fundamental human rights as established by the United Nations.
Taj Hargey, a historian and Islamic theologian, runs the Muslim Education Centre in Oxford. He, with me, is a trustee of British Muslims For Secular Democracy which is attempting to educate Muslims out of authorised obscurantism and non-Muslims into a better understanding of the progressive and evolutionary nature of the practice of Islam.
He is incandescent that Dr Williams backs a perilous Islamic conservatism, already too powerful in Britain: "Sharia is nothing but a human concoction of medieval religious opinion, largely archaic and outmoded and irrelevant to life today. Most sharia contradicts the letter and spirit of the Koran, distorts the transcendental text."
During his sermons Dr Hargey explains to congregations that, for example there is no blasphemy in the Koran, that the Prophet himself allowed a man to mock the divine revelations. Apostasy, says the holy text, will be dealt with by Allah in the afterlife. Sharia policemen insist apostates should be tortured and killed.
Dr Williams says Muslims want the choice to opt for sharia. What he believes to be choice is, in truth, inner compulsion, the result of brainwashing which begins in the madrassas when girls and boys are young enough to mould.
I have often admired the Archbishop's lofty thoughts, his intellectualism, the passion for human rights, his guts when the Government needs to be chastised. But this time his kind indulgences betray his own invaluable principles and deliver Muslim women, girls and dissidents into the hands of religious persecutors – an unforgivable intervention, which I hope he now sincerely regrets.
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Posted: Sunday, February 10, 2008 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 55 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #125096 by adonais on February 11, 2008 at 12:32 am
THANK YOU! Yasmin, for offering the archbishop the perspective he sorely lacks. I doubt you'll hear an apology from Williams...at best, maybe a concession that he could have worded things differently. Besides, whom would he apologize to that it would not stir up even more discord?
Other Comments by adonais
3. Comment #125097 by Vaal on February 11, 2008 at 12:45 am
Excellent article. Other Comments by Vaal
4. Comment #125101 by PJG on February 11, 2008 at 1:06 am
Wonderful article.
I hope this, and others like it by enlightened Muslim women, gets through to some of the silly girls who are insisting that it is their right to be veiled.
Other Comments by PJG
5. Comment #125103 by Steve Zara on February 11, 2008 at 1:15 am
No women are allowed to be imams or serious jurists, so cannot help make their own fair and free set of female-friendly sharia.
This, to me, is the core argument in an important article.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
6. Comment #125114 by alan baylis on February 11, 2008 at 1:54 am
thankyou for this,yasminOther Comments by alan baylis
7. Comment #125171 by AllanW on February 11, 2008 at 3:26 am
Excellent stuff; thanks.
This really should carry much more weight because it speaks from experience; it's what I have said many times, the oppressed minorities are the people to look towards for a judgement on Islam. It's too easy for white, male commentators to (quite wrongly in most instances) be branded as right-wing, post-colonial thugs so that the message gets diluted or lost. Ayaan Hirsi Ali et al who have experienced what Islam leads to are the ones to carry this debate.
More power to you Ms Alibhai-Brown.
Other Comments by AllanW
8. Comment #125172 by Boukeb on February 11, 2008 at 3:26 am
The General Synod wants the bishop to quit. The Synod is currently having a five day meeting. Let's hope they fire this man who is the spiritual leader of 75 million Anglicans.Other Comments by Boukeb
9. Comment #125184 by Ian Bamlett on February 11, 2008 at 3:45 am
Whilst I appreciate the article I was left with one dominant thought: Yasmin if this is all so abhorrent to you why the hell are you a part of it? Just get OUT and renounce the whole rotten filthy barrel.
Ah, but of course, no matter how much an enlightened muslim she may be, she still 'believes in belief' doesn't she. Am I being to harsh? All preceding comments seem to be entirely favourable - I am left with a bitter taste in my mouth.
Other Comments by Ian Bamlett
10. Comment #125195 by mmurray on February 11, 2008 at 4:00 am
The General Synod wants the bishop to quit. The Synod is currently having a five day meeting. Let's hope they fire this man who is the spiritual leader of 75 million Anglicans
Unfortunately I am not sure this is due to universal revulsion at what he said. My impression is that he has many political enemies and they are more conservative than he is on such things as homosexuality. I suspect they are just taking the chance to get the knife in. But someone who lives in the UK can probably explain the politics on the Anglican Communion better than me.
Michael
Other Comments by mmurray
11. Comment #125197 by jaytee_555 on February 11, 2008 at 4:02 am
One must admire the courage of Yasmin Alibhai-Brown and her colleague Taj Hargey, in resisting sharia law from within its sphere of influence. This impassioned plea from a Muslim woman asking Rowan Williams to stop making things worse, carries even more weight than most other similar criticisms, coming as it does, from someone who feels and sees its effects every day, and risks her own safety in speaking out.However, I would imagine that most readers and posters on this site will not be able to wholeheartedly support her stated aims. She says, as a trustee of the organisation 'British Muslims For Secular Democracy', that she is
"....attempting to educate Muslims out of authorised obscurantism and non-Muslims into a better understanding of the progressive and evolutionary nature of the practice of Islam".
I have to ask myself what that might be. Will it be the eqivalent of what Luther and the Reformation did for Roman Catholicism? And if so, is it something we think is desirable?
She adds;
'Sharia is nothing but a human concoction of medieval religious opinion ...... Most sharia contradicts the letter and spirit of the Koran, [and] distorts the transcendental text."
So, it seems, sharia is merely man-made opinion and to be distrusted (indeed, got rid of); but the Koran is 'trancendental'. Short of a miraculous latter day appearance by the Prophet to interpret the 'true' meaning of the 'trancendental' text, someone will need to take on the job. But who? The British Muslims For Secular Democracy?
It may seem a little churlish to question the aims of an organisation that is clearly an improvement on Islam's status quo (and perhaps it would be better discussed in a different thread), but I would like to hear other readers' ideas on how long a spoon they think we need to safely 'sup with the devil' when Islam is involved. (Or any other religion, for that matter).
Other Comments by jaytee_555
12. Comment #125201 by Ian Bamlett on February 11, 2008 at 4:05 am
Comment #125197 by jaytee_555
...jaytee, excellent: exactly where I would have gone with my comment 9 above if I had been as smart as you.
:-)
Other Comments by Ian Bamlett
13. Comment #125218 by Peacebeuponme on February 11, 2008 at 4:40 am
Whilst I appreciate the article I was left with one dominant thought: Yasmin if this is all so abhorrent to you why the hell are you a part of it? Just get OUT and renounce the whole rotten filthy barrel.Exactly my thoughts on reading the article.
I have often admired the Archbishop's lofty thoughts, his intellectualism, the passion for human rights, his guts when the Government needs to be chastised.The Archbishop should not have a special place to chastise the Government. He does not speak for the people.
Other Comments by Peacebeuponme
14. Comment #125222 by mjwemdee on February 11, 2008 at 5:03 am
The last three posts (#125197, #125201, #125218) are spot on.Yasmin Alibhai Brownhas gone up in my estimation for her candour and bravery with this article. But for an intelligent woman she still doesn't seem to make the connection: the only way to respect all religions equally is to respect none of them.
Other Comments by mjwemdee
15. Comment #125225 by suffolkthinker on February 11, 2008 at 5:12 am
Whilst I appreciate the article I was left with one dominant thought: Yasmin if this is all so abhorrent to you why the hell are you a part of it? Just get OUT and renounce the whole rotten filthy barrel.While I sypmpathise with you view, I think Yasmin Alibhai-Brown is just one of those people on a journey of belief. Probably too hard to completely break the strings of faith but clearly a moderate free thinker. I like to think of her a "fellow traveller" and tactically I think it helps our cause to have intelligent, moderate women like her who identify themselves as muslims speaking out like this.
I wish her well!
Other Comments by suffolkthinker
16. Comment #125232 by Azven on February 11, 2008 at 5:21 am
It goes without saying that the Archbishop did not seek the opinion of a Muslim re his speech - more specifically, not of a Muslim woman. The fact that this white, western, Christian male did not, speaks VOLUMES about his lofty view from his ivory tower. Other Comments by Azven
17. Comment #125234 by Barbara on February 11, 2008 at 5:27 am
@ Ian Bamlett:
Many of us have wondered why moderates don't speak out against the fundamentalists. This brave woman is doing that. She seems to want to make changes (for the better) from within this vile religion. If those changes can be made, in time, those who wish to leave can "Just get OUT and renounce the whole rotten filthy barrel" without being hunted down and killed for it.
Other Comments by Barbara
18. Comment #125248 by Ian Bamlett on February 11, 2008 at 6:07 am
Comment #125234 by Barbara
She seems to want to make changes (for the better) from within this vile religion
Barbara, I know where you are coming from but I have to disagree. Surely a greater impact could be made by someone with Yasmins profile renouncing the faith and then saying loud and clear why. It would give courage to others that they can just walk away. In Western countries they are not going to be 'hunted down and killed' for doing this; or if they are their murders should be treated as such and their killers prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
Perhaps she is a real believer though and feels that's why she has to try and effect change from within. She will fail. The powers pushing her religion in the opposite direction have all the money, all the power and all the appeal.
Other Comments by Ian Bamlett
19. Comment #125253 by al-rawandi on February 11, 2008 at 6:27 am
Steve,
Look up Irshad Manji and Amina Wudud.
Both are women who are seeking to change Muslim views on women. Amina Wudud actually led a prayer in New York. And Manji is a lesbian who seeks to change the interpretation of the Qur'an.
They are not popular in the American Muslim community, except with the very liberal. It may be worth a Wikipedia search.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
20. Comment #125256 by AllanW on February 11, 2008 at 6:31 am
Re; comment #125234
'In Western countries they are not going to be 'hunted down and killed' for doing this; or if they are their murders should be treated as such and their killers prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.'
yeh, Ian; that sounds great from societies point of view but not so good from the individual concerneds.
Other Comments by AllanW
21. Comment #125260 by wednesdayguevara on February 11, 2008 at 6:35 am
Ian Bamlett,Perhaps she is a real believer though and feels that's why she has to try and effect change from within. She will fail. The powers pushing her religion in the opposite direction have all the money, all the power and all the appeal.
You might be right. Still, that's no reason she shouldn't do what she can. We're always moaning about how Muslim moderates never speak up, never protest the evil being done in their name. When they do, as Alibhai-Brown has done here, it's in our best interest to support them. Baby steps, my friend.
Other Comments by wednesdayguevara
22. Comment #125261 by home8896 on February 11, 2008 at 6:36 am
Change isn't going to happen overnight. If people who still wish to believe in some parts of their religion can banish the more hideous aspects of that religion, then that is a good first step. The all or nothing, black or white tactic is going to do nothing except marginalize those who seek change. To say to most people, I don't believe in any of this crap, and therefore you should change everything and do it now is going to fall on deaf ears. And many of the nasty traditions being supported by extremists can be changed from within. After that baby step is mastered, other parts can be approached. I'm not a big fan of all or nothing, and when it comes to changing something that is torture and destruction to human beings, even if those human beings have some deluded notions of imaginary friends (which is all I can hear when I see this all or nothing stance - "oh this writer doesn't count, and her opinion is worthless because she is still clinging to hope that there is a just invisible being out there"), is worth the effort. It will take those who aren't extreme to stand up against the extreme, first. Other Comments by home8896
23. Comment #125264 by Barbara on February 11, 2008 at 6:37 am
Surely a greater impact could be made by someone with Yasmins profile renouncing the faith and then saying loud and clear why. It would give courage to others that they can just walk away. In Western countries they are not going to be 'hunted down and killed' for doing this; or if they are their murders should be treated as such and their killers prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
Ian,
Not being familiar with Yasmins' profile, I can only assume she is somewhat well known. Yes? If so, there's a difference between her and the average muslim woman. Yasmins' death at the hands of fundamentalists wouldn't go unnoticed and might result in the capture and conviction of the person who killed her (would the killer be deemed a martyr then?). However, the message to other muslim women would be sent loud and clear.
Yasmin may indeed be a real believer. Only she can know for sure. Either way, I hope she's able to make real changes that enlighten and better the lives of all of those who are oppressed and persecuted in the name of Allah.
Other Comments by Barbara
24. Comment #125269 by Ian Bamlett on February 11, 2008 at 6:52 am
Comment #125256 by AllanW:
yeh, Ian; that sounds great from societies point of view but not so good from the individual concerneds.
Agreed, I have no argument with that. But if people are nervous about pursuing choices in life for fear of someone else committing an illegal act then we really are in deep shit. I am not saying the choice to renounce Islam is the smart thing to do in Saudi Arabia - but in Britain for goodness sake?
Other Comments by Ian Bamlett
25. Comment #125273 by Steve Zara on February 11, 2008 at 7:03 am
And Manji is a lesbian who seeks to change the interpretation of the Qur'an.
There was a worrying report on BBC Radio in the last few days about how gay men and lesbians in certain communities are marrying so as to appear straight. The idea is that they can have enough children to satisfy parents, and then divorce, and then hopefully be left alone to live their hidden lives.
It is depressing that people have to live like that in the UK.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
26. Comment #125275 by Ian Bamlett on February 11, 2008 at 7:06 am
However, the message to other muslim women would be sent loud and clear.
Barbara,
Yes, this is a valid point and I take it onboard fully. But you have to make a stand. Fifty years ago you might be beaten up in the street for being overtly gay. Now, try that shit on a gay pride march and you are the one who is going to get your ass kicked. Muslim women have to be empowered. The only way I can see that this will happen is if they are no longer muslim.
I accept this is very hard to accomplish though.
Other Comments by Ian Bamlett
27. Comment #125276 by al-rawandi on February 11, 2008 at 7:11 am
Steve,
It is depressing that people are forced to hide like that anywhere.
What I have never understood is why people think that oppressing, torturing and killing gays will suddenly make them straight or the problem go away.
I know a Muslim who is gay. I can tell that this person suffers a great deal of pain. For a number of reasons one is their dedication to their faith (which holds homosexuality to be wrong) and the fear of ever being found out. I simply don't know how to approach it.
The US is still behind the UK in its treatment of homsexuals I think.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
28. Comment #125291 by Incredulous on February 11, 2008 at 7:45 am
The US is still behind the UK in its treatment of homsexuals I think.
And obviously we still have a way to go in our treatment of homosexuals here, it seems.
I could state the obvious and say someone's personal preferences have nothing to do with anyone but the individual and in the same way that everyone and anyone can believe what they like, anyone and everyone has a right to their own private sex life and preference.
But this is not so obvious to those who wish to influence and dominate us even in our private, tender and most personal moments.
It must be difficult for this guy to be committed so strongly to something which would destroy him.
It must be difficulf, for you al-rawandi, to simply stand by not knowing what to do to at least take away the pain.
Yah! Religion, keep it; if this is the kind of choices it forces people to make I want nothing to do with it. It's perpetrators obviously don't think very much of humans if they must try to destroy people ... for what?
I'm angry, though I know this anger cannot even compare to the feelings you and your muslim friend have. al-rawandi.
Other Comments by Incredulous
29. Comment #125295 by al-rawandi on February 11, 2008 at 7:52 am
Incredulous,
He actually stated (he has never admitted to being gay, but it is so very obvious) that he thought homosexuality was a psychological disorder.
This was removed from the DSM some time ago, and I couldn't believe someone thought this.
He probably views himself as mentally ill. Scary thought. I am not gay, so I don't really know what it feels like, but I am pretty sure it feels a lot like how I feel about women. If that is the case, then there is no hope of changing those feelings or the object of those feelings.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
30. Comment #125296 by jimbob on February 11, 2008 at 7:53 am
Humble suggestion to the inhabitants of the UK -- the land of my birth and first 34 years:D I S E S T A B L I S H !
If I was still living there I'd try to get Richard to start the campaign. Journalists such as Yasmin would be a force to be reckoned with.
Other Comments by jimbob
31. Comment #125299 by Steve Zara on February 11, 2008 at 7:59 am
This was removed from the DSM some time ago, and I couldn't believe someone thought this.
1974, I believe. A LONG time in terms of scientific understanding.
He probably views himself as mentally ill. Scary thought.
This is very worrying. There can me much self-oppression, which is one of the issues raised by this topic. People brought up in ignorance and under the influence of dogma can believe that they are inferior and even evil. Even if offered rights and freedom, they reject them.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
32. Comment #125302 by annabanana on February 11, 2008 at 8:04 am
Although I generally wonder why Yasmin still believes anything of her chosen religion, I am glad that she has written such a response the the Archbishop. It is extremely important that there are such moderate Muslims, especially women, who can and will speak out. If we could just rid all religions of their toxic parts, the world would be a much better place and religious people and non-religious people would have an easier time co-existing. I think the voice of the moderate Muslim is the first step in achieving this. Other Comments by annabanana
33. Comment #125305 by Bonzai on February 11, 2008 at 8:08 am
Speaking about gays I remember a few years ago some gay man from Iran was seeking political asylum in the U.K. He was rejected and was slated to be sent back to Iran. He shot himself as a result. It was disgusting.Other Comments by Bonzai
34. Comment #125307 by al-rawandi on February 11, 2008 at 8:10 am
Steve,
I thought the DSM removed it sometime in the 70's. Look at how else we have evolved in terms of understanding since then.
I do worry about this guy. Fortunately, he isn't suicidal. Must be the Muslim prohibition on suicide that keeps him safe...
Other Comments by al-rawandi
35. Comment #125309 by al-rawandi on February 11, 2008 at 8:12 am
Bonzai,
Homosexuals are executed in Iran under the charge of "Spreading corruption on the earth". What a world we live in. Of course no politicians are charged with this.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
36. Comment #125318 by Frankus1122 on February 11, 2008 at 8:20 am
I saw Irshad Manji speak last week. She says "Hi" to all the atheists who believe she should take the next logical step and abandon Islam altogether. She is not ready to do that. However, she does speak out against the stupidity of Islam as practised by some today. She said that after doing some inquiry on her own into the religion she discovered that a lot of what is preached today was not what was originally the case.
I am not arguing her case here.
She went on to say that dogma is afraid of inquiry. She was worried about speaking out and then she spoke to Salmund Rushdie. He told her that some ideas were more important than individual people. (I'm not sure about this; I'm still thinking about it). It was after this conversation that she decided to write her first book discussing what is wrong with Islam today.
She regularly receives death threats. She had protection. Then she gave it up. She thought that she must serve as an example for other Muslim women (and men) who want to speak out against the insanity of the religious pratice.
She is not calling for an abandonment of the faith altogether.
Baby steps.
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37. Comment #125320 by al-rawandi on February 11, 2008 at 8:23 am
Frankus1122,
Look up Amina Wudud (Wadood, Wadud) I can't remember the English spelling.
Anyhow, African American Muslim women. She led prayer at a New York mosque.
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38. Comment #125323 by irate_atheist on February 11, 2008 at 8:25 am
Bearded wonder continues to defend the indefensible:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/7239409.stm
Classic line in the article:
The Archbishop of Canterbury has defended his decision to speak on Sharia law, saying it was his duty to speak on behalf of other religions.So, Cap'n Rowan, does that include Mormons? Scientologists? Pastafarians? Followers of Thor?
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39. Comment #125340 by Frankus1122 on February 11, 2008 at 9:00 am
Seriously.
This is a question that should be asked. We should demand an answer. The ridiculous postion it puts him in will be brought into focus even more clearly.
What about Rastafarians?
The sacred weed should be allowed to be smoked freely if we are to be tolerant of other religions. I don't think this is the case.
This has always bothered me. In Ontario, Sheiks are allowed to carry their ceremonial daggers in schools. I don't think kids in school should be allowed to carry around weapons of any kind. This is crazy in my view but we are 'tolerant' because it is a sacred part of their religious practice. Then what about the weed?
There should be one law for all the people.
Nutty religious stuff should be left at home or abolished altogether. I like what they are doing in France in this regard.
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40. Comment #125383 by Steve Zara on February 11, 2008 at 9:49 am
What about Rastafarians?
Some people registered their religion as "Jedi" at the last census. I honestly hope the Archbishop is prepared to speak for them too. Amen, and may the force be with you.
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41. Comment #125385 by Bonzai on February 11, 2008 at 9:50 am
Rastararians?I think pot should be legalized for everyone.
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42. Comment #125391 by Geoff on February 11, 2008 at 9:59 am
The sacred weed should be allowed to be smoked freely if we are to be tolerant of other religions. I don't think this is the case.
Certainly isn't the case in the UK, where there is a move to upgrade it from a Class 'C' to a Class 'B'drug (which is what it used to be).
(that makes it "more illegal", for those outside the UK who might not know the classifications!)
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43. Comment #125393 by Gymnopedie on February 11, 2008 at 10:04 am
Great article and extremely important rebuttal to hear.I'm very curious as to how the moderates can read the Koran and Hadith and not see how misogynist and disgusting a text it is. I think these moderates are of a deist mindset but perhaps still want some sort of religious identity and sense of community. That's just my speculation.
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44. Comment #125451 by MaxD on February 11, 2008 at 11:48 am
Brav-fucking-o. Wonderful article.
Steve,
Did you say Jedi?
When I was kid I always wanted to be a Jedi...but I've come to think they are a little weird in the application of Justice, and man they tend to lie. Yoda and Obi-Wan built Luke's life on a thin tissue of obfuscation and half truth. Leia's too. And didn't yoda seem just a bit power hungry himself in the prequels?
Alas, I've lost my faith in their creed.
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45. Comment #125461 by Ian Bamlett on February 11, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Alas, I've lost my faith in their creed.
I became disenchanted with the faith when I found out it was really all about how may midi-chlorines you had in your bloodstream.
Seemed a bit unfair to those of us not genetically pre-disposed to have them. A little too close to the idea of Aryan Bloodlines if you know what I mean.....
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46. Comment #125476 by Janus on February 11, 2008 at 12:20 pm
What he did on Thursday was to convince other Britons, white, black and brown, that Muslims want not equality but exceptionalism and their own domains. Enlightened British Muslims quail. Friends like this churchman do us more harm than our many enemies.
You know, I can't help but think that Williams can't be so stupid that he hasn't seen this. I think there's a good possibility that he knew exactly what he was doing and what kind of reactions it would provoke. And by Iggy the Secular Elf, it has worked incredibly well. If that was his intent, the Archbishop is a genius of strategy, not to mention a very brave man for being willing to take the accusations that would inevitably follow (and have followed).
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47. Comment #125481 by Ian Bamlett on February 11, 2008 at 12:25 pm
I can't help but think that Williams can't be so stupid that he hasn't seen this
It's possible. I'll have to check my encyclopedia.
No, sorry - under, "Liberal ivy tower nincompoop disconnected from reality" there is still a picture of Rowan Williams.
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48. Comment #125490 by Goldy on February 11, 2008 at 12:46 pm
No women are allowed to be imams or serious jurists
They can in China - so I read. Can I find the article? Can I hell!
But then, China is not quite the model we all wish to follow...
Sharia can work, but you have to batter it into submission. Unfortunately gulags and deathcamps are not quite flavour of the month in the west.
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49. Comment #125492 by Bonzai on February 11, 2008 at 12:52 pm
They can in China - so I read. Can I find the article? Can I hell!
Here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3656180.stm
To echo your point about the Chinese model
Beijing's tight control over religious practice means Chinese Muslims have been isolated from trends sweeping through the rest of the Islamic world.
According to Dr Khaled Abou el Fadl from the University of California in Los Angeles, that means that ancient traditions like female jurists - which have been stamped out elsewhere - have been able to continue in China.
"The Wahhabi and Salafis have not been able to penetrate areas like China and establish their puritanical creed there," said Dr Khaled Abou el Fadl.
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50. Comment #125499 by Goldy on February 11, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Yep, that's the one! :-) I knew I could count on you, Bonzai :-)Given the apparent Chinese rise, I dare say this form of Islam might be making a comeback in the more darkened lands from when it once flowered...
Edit - I think the NY Times had an article in the same vein once. I remember reading that the imam, when told that she was odd in the eyes of current Islam for her sex, expressed surprise that there are no women imams outside of China. Mind you, that could also be a measure of the isolation of Chinese Islam. Hmmm, a model for evolution a religious person might understand?
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1. Comment #125088 by Inferno on February 11, 2008 at 12:06 am
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