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The argument from oranges
by PZ Myers, Pharyngula
Reposted from:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/02/the_argument_from_oranges.php
What is it with creationists and fruit? I hope you've had your coffee already, because this is an unpleasant way to wake up. The clip below is from a public hearing in Orlando, Florida, in which citizens had a chance to stand up and state their opinions of evolution. Are you braced to handle a little smug and stupid this morning?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5UiUWa34cY
Download Quicktime version
I'm sure this guy thought he was rhetorically brilliant, with a knock-'em dead argument against evolution. Why, nobody with any common sense could possibly believe that people (or their pets) could be related to an orange! Just pointing out the obvious to everyone, that round orange fruits don't look anything like furry mobile animals, will reveal the absurdity of evolution.
Unfortunately for Mr Dallas Ellis, we really don't have any problem seeing the similarities between oranges and kitty cats — scientists look a little deeper than he does. Slice an orange and put it under a microscope, and what do you see? Cells. Slice a cat and look at it under a microscope, and what do you see? Cells. We find similar organelles: cytoplasm, nuclei, mitochondria, etc. The contents use similar metabolic processes, and we find the same chemicals. The nuclei contain DNA, and we can compare the sequences — and we find similarities there (they are related) but many differences as well (they are distantly related — one estimate for the last common ancestor of plants and animals says they diverged roughly 1.6 billion years ago). Mr Ellis is relying on his profound ignorance of the basic building blocks of biology to make a superficial case.
Let's not even get into his closing remarks, trying to compare evolution to trucks full of poultry and garbage colliding, and spontaneously fusing maggots and turkeys to produce the school board. It's simply more evidence that he's a clueless old git.
I'm perfectly comfortable with the idea that I'm a distant relative of every creeping, crawling, blooming, squirming organism on the planet, but I do have to admit to some discomfort at being related to Mr Ellis. An orange has evolved no neurons and at least has an excuse for being unthinking, and hasn't evolved speech and so spares us its mindless gibbering.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/02/the_argument_from_oranges.php
What is it with creationists and fruit? I hope you've had your coffee already, because this is an unpleasant way to wake up. The clip below is from a public hearing in Orlando, Florida, in which citizens had a chance to stand up and state their opinions of evolution. Are you braced to handle a little smug and stupid this morning?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5UiUWa34cY
Download Quicktime version
I'm sure this guy thought he was rhetorically brilliant, with a knock-'em dead argument against evolution. Why, nobody with any common sense could possibly believe that people (or their pets) could be related to an orange! Just pointing out the obvious to everyone, that round orange fruits don't look anything like furry mobile animals, will reveal the absurdity of evolution.
Unfortunately for Mr Dallas Ellis, we really don't have any problem seeing the similarities between oranges and kitty cats — scientists look a little deeper than he does. Slice an orange and put it under a microscope, and what do you see? Cells. Slice a cat and look at it under a microscope, and what do you see? Cells. We find similar organelles: cytoplasm, nuclei, mitochondria, etc. The contents use similar metabolic processes, and we find the same chemicals. The nuclei contain DNA, and we can compare the sequences — and we find similarities there (they are related) but many differences as well (they are distantly related — one estimate for the last common ancestor of plants and animals says they diverged roughly 1.6 billion years ago). Mr Ellis is relying on his profound ignorance of the basic building blocks of biology to make a superficial case.
Let's not even get into his closing remarks, trying to compare evolution to trucks full of poultry and garbage colliding, and spontaneously fusing maggots and turkeys to produce the school board. It's simply more evidence that he's a clueless old git.
I'm perfectly comfortable with the idea that I'm a distant relative of every creeping, crawling, blooming, squirming organism on the planet, but I do have to admit to some discomfort at being related to Mr Ellis. An orange has evolved no neurons and at least has an excuse for being unthinking, and hasn't evolved speech and so spares us its mindless gibbering.
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Posted: Saturday, February 16, 2008 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 73 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #128235 by HoyaSaxa87 on February 16, 2008 at 3:28 pm
I'm not even upset by this, it's just hilarious.Other Comments by HoyaSaxa87
3. Comment #128236 by jimbob on February 16, 2008 at 3:29 pm
He brings contemplating one's navel to a new level!Other Comments by jimbob
4. Comment #128237 by Geoff on February 16, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Please tell me it's a spoof...Poe's law?
The banana was funnier.
Other Comments by Geoff
5. Comment #128238 by Peacebeuponme on February 16, 2008 at 3:31 pm
How to people like this manage to pass the bar?Other Comments by Peacebeuponme
6. Comment #128243 by jshuey on February 16, 2008 at 3:35 pm
"How do people like this manage to pass the bar?"
EASY. Passing the bar doesn't require thinking...only memorization.
Other Comments by jshuey
7. Comment #128248 by Geoff on February 16, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Passed the bar? Spent too long in the bar, maybe. Other Comments by Geoff
8. Comment #128251 by jo5ef on February 16, 2008 at 3:55 pm
This has pxxxxd me off so much i'm adding a post i made on evolutionblog where the Huxley - Wilberforce exchange was being discussed. A Huxley type response was clearly needed here!The bishops apocryphal comments underline the big problem most fundamentalist xtians etc have with evolution: they dont care (and therefore won't even try to understand) the mechanism, they just HATE the idea of being descended from apes, with the obvious conclusion that we ARE apes and therefore are just the same as all other animals. This then forces us to confront our inevitable mortality. The usual result of this train of thought is the kind of "la la la i cant hear you (hands over ears)" diatribes and sarcastic distortions weve been hearing from religious folk ever since Soapy Sam.
In fact thats why the story of Huxley and the bishop rings so true. Weve all had some smug fool try to score cheap points like that, and perhaps we havent been able to put them in their place as well as Huxley did. If the tale isn't true, it ought to be!
Other Comments by jo5ef
9. Comment #128253 by Dog Boots on February 16, 2008 at 4:00 pm
"The clip below is from a public hearing in Orlando, Florida, in which citizens had a chance to stand up and state their opinions of evolution."Why on Earth would anyone be interested in the average citizen opinion of Evolution?
Other Comments by Dog Boots
10. Comment #128255 by Fiziker on February 16, 2008 at 4:07 pm
The classic argumentum ad citrum fallacy, a subset of the ever so popular argumentum ad fructum. Other Comments by Fiziker
11. Comment #128259 by Diacanu on February 16, 2008 at 4:09 pm
As Bill Hicks would say, ya-fuckin-hoos. Other Comments by Diacanu
12. Comment #128260 by steveroot on February 16, 2008 at 4:10 pm
7. Comment #128248 by Geoff on February 16, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Passed the bar? Spent too long in the bar, maybe.
Passed *out in* the bar, more likely. Doesn't even require memorization- just drinking!
Where's Irate when we need him? Hello?
Five
Other Comments by steveroot
13. Comment #128262 by Partisan on February 16, 2008 at 4:23 pm
This is embaressing - It's like I have to cringe for him because he's so incapable. One day he might sober up from his ignorance drunkeness and his hangover's going to be unearthly: *Oh God, what was I SAYING last night...you video'd it?! Argh, I'm never going to be irrational again!* Other Comments by Partisan
14. Comment #128263 by Sally Luxmoore on February 16, 2008 at 4:27 pm
'One should not mock the afflicted'.This poor simple and confused old man should be taken by the hand and seated in a rocking chair and told that nobody is going to be arranging a family reunion between him and his fruit bowl any time in the near future.
In the mean time, we need to concentrate on educating his children and grandchildren, who are quite probably embarrassed by him.
Other Comments by Sally Luxmoore
15. Comment #128267 by aflacgirl84 on February 16, 2008 at 4:35 pm
To funny, I couldn't stop laughing at the absurdity of what this guy was saying! At the same time, though, it was very saddening that this guy truly believes what he was saying! Oh, the absurdity of it all!Other Comments by aflacgirl84
16. Comment #128268 by HourglassMemory on February 16, 2008 at 4:37 pm
My God!this is the sort of ignorance I hate the most. this is why I argue with people about these issues.
I hate it because people in the backround....say nothing....a man said "Amen"?
My God!
The man's stupid smirks, indirectly showing that "he's got it and it's wrong", are what makes me pitty people like him.
Other Comments by HourglassMemory
17. Comment #128273 by LorienRyan on February 16, 2008 at 4:41 pm
An Jayses sayd to may frum on ha, "sern ya'll spayshal" Other Comments by LorienRyan
18. Comment #128278 by markg on February 16, 2008 at 4:53 pm
I don't know if this man is related to any fruit, but he certainly is nuts. Other Comments by markg
19. Comment #128280 by notsobad on February 16, 2008 at 4:54 pm
They took our jobs! Other Comments by notsobad
20. Comment #128281 by kaiserkriss on February 16, 2008 at 4:55 pm
I'd have to agree with Sally above. The poor doddering fool though is unfortunately representative of the population at large who know nothing, zilch, nada, nichts about biology.
The even sadder thing is that so called educated people, those with university degrees outside the sciences, probably think the same way Ellis Dallas does. Pity...jcw
Other Comments by kaiserkriss
21. Comment #128284 by babrock on February 16, 2008 at 4:58 pm
A lot of t problem w/ these guys is how limited their perspective is. Dawkins, or Richard as he prefers, has explained how truely evolved to be like this we are, but come on, this tendency is not unsurmountable. Compared w/ t size of t entire universe, t distanc from here to pluto is almost nothing, when compared to lengths involving subatomic particals it is almost infinet. Similar things can be said about time.And if compared to his brother, t orange is a rather distant relative, tho compared to rocks, stars, fire, soap bubles and a huge number of other things t paterns making up him and t orange are fairly close to being identical. He was taking his inability to see things at t proper scale as a reason to be smug.Other Comments by babrock
22. Comment #128285 by MelM on February 16, 2008 at 5:00 pm
This guy's parent was an orange.Other Comments by MelM
23. Comment #128288 by quill on February 16, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Hehe. "You wanna wrap it up?" That was brilliant. ^-^
Honestly, I'm not bothered by this, and am actually glad the man gave his speech. The fact that everything in the organic world is related is one of the more beautiful implications of Darwinian evolution.
Other Comments by quill
24. Comment #128290 by Tack on February 16, 2008 at 5:16 pm
@notsobad:And you just know that after the hearing, they all gathered into The Pile.
Other Comments by Tack
25. Comment #128291 by John Done on February 16, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Okay, this isn't offending, it's just funny.Other Comments by John Done
26. Comment #128292 by MelM on February 16, 2008 at 5:19 pm
NCSE's Feb 12 report on the situation in Florida. The board's vote will be Feb 19.The same motivations were on view at the Orlando meeting, along with bizarre claims about science -- the St. Petersburg Times (February 12, 2008) reported that a speaker "held up an orange and said that because of evolution, he now had irrefutable evidence that an orange was 'the first cousin to somebody's pet cat' and 'related to human beings'"http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/news/2008/FL/731_evolution_under_siege_in_flori_2_12_2008.asp
Other Comments by MelM
27. Comment #128296 by MelM on February 16, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Unfortunately, he didn't bring a bowl of nuts to illustrate his point.Other Comments by MelM
28. Comment #128303 by kintaro_crab on February 16, 2008 at 6:00 pm
hmmmmmmmm...oranges
bananas
peanut butter
The face of the virgin Mary on a grill cheese sandwich
frozen waterfalls split into three parts
A dog getting run over by a car
Crying statues
Near death experiences
Faith healers
Sai Baba?!
when atheists say there just isn't enough evidence to show that god exists we really aren't kidding.
Other Comments by kintaro_crab
29. Comment #128324 by Zakie Chan on February 16, 2008 at 6:36 pm
"There are no statements worth arguing here... All you can do is underline them!"--Christopher Hitchens
I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it.
--Voltaire
Other Comments by Zakie Chan
30. Comment #128336 by nogodsever on February 16, 2008 at 6:49 pm
This must have been one of those 'sophisticated' arguments for God that the new atheists aren't engaging. What the fuck he was trying to say surely went over my head. Other Comments by nogodsever
31. Comment #128360 by Liveliest Crib on February 16, 2008 at 8:31 pm
I was going to get married, but then I thought about it for a second. We've only been around for about 6,000 years as a universe, so there really haven't been that many generations of human beings. I mean, we all started from Adam and Eve. And Eve was really just Adam's clone. And her kids had to sleep with, well, I guess with either one another and/or her in order to populate the planet, and they lived for 900 years or something. And then god killed pretty much the whole gene pool 'cept for Noah and his family, and started the whole incest thing over again.So, I didn't wanna get married. I'm probably the cousin or sister of my betrothed. It's too big a risk.
And then I remembered. As I was comforting myself with the knowledge that we never came from monkeys, I read in the Bible where we truly did come from: Dirt.
We're all just the progeny of dirt.
So, what the heck does it matter anyway? Ok, screw it, I'll get married.
Other Comments by Liveliest Crib
32. Comment #128376 by MelM on February 16, 2008 at 9:35 pm
Gen 1:20 ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
Gen 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Gen 1:24 ¶ And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
Gen 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Bananas
Peanut butter
Oranges
Source:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen001.html#20
Other Comments by MelM
33. Comment #128394 by kintaro_crab on February 16, 2008 at 10:52 pm
you forgot this part where god decided to create an alternate universe where man comes before the beasts and fowl."
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof."
Other Comments by kintaro_crab
34. Comment #128398 by MelM on February 16, 2008 at 11:25 pm
Yes; there are two versions.The second is really more fun. http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/garden_of_eden/gn02_04-06.html
Anyway, they are attempting to wreck science because of a few infantile stories in a holy book. We clearly have some cognitivepathology at work here.
Other Comments by MelM
35. Comment #128402 by Gordy on February 16, 2008 at 11:57 pm
Can anyone imagine how offended this guy would be if atheists came up with an equally inaccurate parody of the creationists' story? ;) Other Comments by Gordy
36. Comment #128421 by petermun on February 17, 2008 at 1:24 am
He totally failed to establish the origin of the faeces.Other Comments by petermun
37. Comment #128429 by jaf on February 17, 2008 at 2:03 am
Could Darwin's publishers have made a terrible mistake in the title of the book?Could he have intended to call it 'The Oranges of Species'?
jaf
www.anax-andron.com/thunderbox
Other Comments by jaf
38. Comment #128431 by fineman on February 17, 2008 at 2:11 am
Listening to that, I think he might have misheard about Darwins Orange of SpeciesOther Comments by fineman
39. Comment #128436 by nph on February 17, 2008 at 2:22 am
...did he say "Oranges of species" ?Other Comments by nph
40. Comment #128440 by Verylee on February 17, 2008 at 2:40 am
It's like my granny used to say.."You can't compare apes with oranges". Other Comments by Verylee
41. Comment #128442 by tooltroll on February 17, 2008 at 2:43 am
Now I have a reason to learn to defend myself against assailants armed with fresh fruit. . . Other Comments by tooltroll
42. Comment #128448 by Ian on February 17, 2008 at 3:05 am
I think the best response to this was given by the adjudicator: "Thank you very much..." with a nice strong undertone of '...for wasting our time'.There is nothing to fear in this old fool.
Other Comments by Ian
43. Comment #128458 by Geoff on February 17, 2008 at 3:55 am
13. Comment #128260 by steveroot
Where's Irate when we need him? Hello?
Five
Maybe someone else is going to have to say it...?
Other Comments by Geoff
44. Comment #128463 by Logicel on February 17, 2008 at 4:19 am
I envision an American theocracy where all its international transportation hubs will have mobile food carts piled high with peanut butter/banana/orange sandwiches (in the shape of a fish) of which mandatory consumption is required in order for one to step upon the sacred theocratic soil. The ingestion of such iron-clad proof of the existence of God will be sufficient to nip in the (taste) bud any propagation of atheism. Other Comments by Logicel
45. Comment #128467 by Adam Morrison on February 17, 2008 at 4:21 am
Ding Ding here comes the stupid train. Next stop: Orlando.I can only hope this guy hasn't reproduced. Stupidity on that level shouldn't be raising a rat let alone a homo sapiens.
Other Comments by Adam Morrison
46. Comment #128476 by bluebird on February 17, 2008 at 5:08 am
Somewhere a turnip truck is one vegetable short.
****
MelM mentioned TheBrickTestament;
Yea, that website caught my eye a while back (it's a hoot!). http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brick_Testament
http://www.flakmag.com/features/bricktest.html
Other Comments by bluebird
47. Comment #128480 by blueollie on February 17, 2008 at 5:46 am
This is much of what the American public is like.Other Comments by blueollie
48. Comment #128503 by pkruger on February 17, 2008 at 8:53 am
What I found disturbing are the facial expressions of concurrence amongst the audience members throughout his speech--not looks of disagreement and ridicule.Other Comments by pkruger
49. Comment #128526 by liberalartist on February 17, 2008 at 9:44 am
Take it from someone who lives in Alabama, the man ain't alone in his speaking!
Dog Boots: "Why on Earth would anyone be interested in the average citizen opinion of Evolution?"
because public school curriculum is the US is decided based on public opinion. And since these nut jobs reside more frequently in the southern states, education here suffers.
Other Comments by liberalartist
50. Comment #128551 by D'Arcy on February 17, 2008 at 11:15 am
I notice that towards the end of Mr. Ellis' remarks, and just around the time of the collision between the garbage and chicken trucks, there was a flurry of "gene pool"s, "evolution", and "big bang". I suppose he was decent or ignorant enough to leave out "mutation".
The fact that this otherwise articulate person, could not be bothered to find out what evolution actually is about is so sad. In his defence he at least quoted (I haven't checked the quote), from Darwin in saying that all livings things are related.
To lump in the Big Bang idea of cosmology with evolution is a typical tactic of YECs. They just don't know any better.
Instead of referring to chickens and eggs, I would like to ask Mr. Ellis "Which came first, the creator or the creator's eggs?"
Other Comments by D'Arcy
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1. Comment #128232 by headcold on February 16, 2008 at 3:26 pm
"I don't think we should teach evolution in our schools, because it dulls its effect." -- Emo Philipswho also said:
"I used to think the brain was the most important organ in my entire body, and then I realized, 'Well, look what's telling me that.'" --Emo Philips
Other Comments by headcold