1. Comment #129178 by SamKiddoGordon on February 18, 2008 at 8:29 pm

Their parents should be ashamed, but they are not. They are sick, sick, sick.

Other Comments by SamKiddoGordon

2. Comment #129179 by Inoculatedcities on February 18, 2008 at 8:34 pm

Pure child exploitation, obviously. If these children were being taught to spout neo Nazi rhetoric (a la Prussian Blue), the condemnation of their parents would be universal. Shame on these parents. What terribly hateful, self-righteous, ignorant, obnoxious people these children will likely turn out to be.

Marjoe Gortner apparently taught us nothing.

Other Comments by Inoculatedcities

3. Comment #129180 by bawruss on February 18, 2008 at 8:35 pm

Now you know why Richard calls this child abuse...

It's natural (and maybe already in our genes) that we want are children to be similar to us.
But there ought to be limits.
Why? Well, check this video out... and Jesus Camp...
And it's not just Christians of course.

Sad state of the world. Good that the New Atheists are pointing out that this is NOT OK.

Other Comments by bawruss

4. Comment #129182 by infinitus on February 18, 2008 at 8:36 pm

*shudder*

Other Comments by infinitus

5. Comment #129183 by Skepsis on February 18, 2008 at 8:37 pm

Creepier than Jesus Camp!

Other Comments by Skepsis

6. Comment #129187 by Anubis on February 18, 2008 at 8:49 pm

"God told me to tell you to go the hell across the street!" XD

Other Comments by Anubis

7. Comment #129193 by pkruger on February 18, 2008 at 9:00 pm

All this shows to me is that there exists some chistians who feel an effective method to spread their message can be done by an emotional reaction of an audience to a dog and pony show.

Obviously, these children evangelists knowledge of 'the word' is learned purely by rote, and it would seem many christians feel this is all that's necessary.

Could you imagine the reactions of these children's elders if someone suggest they partake in a Q/A session, when there may exist a possibility of what they preached required futher explanation or even be challenged?

You would never see another flock of grownups suddenly jump in front of a bunch of kids so fast attempting to defend their suddenly very vulnerable little dears

If I ever was somewhere where I saw something like this--I wouldn't hestitate for an instant to heckle this kid. Then after all the inevitable ruckus, maybe someone will realize this is not a good thing for any child to do.

Other Comments by pkruger

8. Comment #129196 by HeyBishop on February 18, 2008 at 9:03 pm

I don't think I'll be able to watch this. The opening teaser was enough to make me sick.

Other Comments by HeyBishop

9. Comment #129197 by SamKiddoGordon on February 18, 2008 at 9:06 pm

Child abuse, using minors to commit fraud, brainwashing. How many crimes have been commited on these children. What has to be done to prosecute the parents?

Other Comments by SamKiddoGordon

10. Comment #129201 by Big T on February 18, 2008 at 9:16 pm

Remind anyone of Marjoe Gortner? Who knows, perhaps someday these child evangelists will grow up to take revenge like he did. Let's hope so.

Other Comments by Big T

11. Comment #129222 by Ed-words on February 18, 2008 at 9:54 pm

Someone got a hold of Huckabee's

home movies!

Other Comments by Ed-words

12. Comment #129223 by quill on February 18, 2008 at 9:54 pm

Population 80% evangelical...

See, I mean, how do you even begin to change a society like that? It'll take them at least a century to catch up with the rest of the world.

Other Comments by quill

13. Comment #129228 by Myotis Lucifugus on February 18, 2008 at 10:01 pm

These kids should get a chance to be kids.

Other Comments by Myotis Lucifugus

14. Comment #129234 by Andrew Brown on February 18, 2008 at 10:12 pm

As the great Bill Hicks put it "Ever noticed how people who believe in creationism look really unevolved?"

Interesting how all of these kids are the products of parents who are on fire for Jesus. Couldn't possibly be a factor in the kid's preaching could it?

No my mistake it's god's holy spirit moving through them

Other Comments by Andrew Brown

15. Comment #129245 by Radesq on February 18, 2008 at 10:33 pm

A well crafted film. It is very much a point of view piece (as most documentaries are these days). The back stories (parent as child abuser, child molester, and child pimp) and the imagery that support them are more powerful than any words that are spoken by the participants or the narrator. I am always puzzled that evangelicals will take part in documentaries that make them look so bad. Perhaps they think this one will be different, perhaps they just don't see how they come over in these programs, perhaps they just can't resist being on television. For whatever reason, I'm glad that people get opportunities like these to see where blind faith can lead.

Other Comments by Radesq

16. Comment #129252 by peahix on February 18, 2008 at 11:10 pm

"marjoe" is a great movie and is well worth owning:

http://tinyurl.com/27pkzj

Other Comments by peahix

17. Comment #129253 by ghuckin on February 18, 2008 at 11:12 pm

What did RD say about calling a child "Christian" or "Bhuddist", or whatever, is abuse? Well, this takes it to the next level. It wasn't only on the streets of NY that this poor child suffered abuse. It started much, much earlier.
There's a lot to be said for freedom of speech, and a few things to be said against it.

Other Comments by ghuckin

18. Comment #129254 by Mitchell Gilks on February 18, 2008 at 11:17 pm

Damn I hate how this signs you out after a couple minutes... have to rewrite my comment.

It went something like: That was disturbing, it made me physically sick. It is horrible what those parents are doing to their children, it especially upset me what they did to that little boy, what he was subjected to.

Although I enjoyed the retort from that guy; Kid: "You know there really is a hell." Guy: "Then I'll see what it's like."

Also, I hope the only reason so few people raised their hands about the evolution thing is because we never evolved from apes, that makes no sense. We are apes currently, a member of the genus of great apes.

Other Comments by Mitchell Gilks

19. Comment #129258 by Prom_STar on February 18, 2008 at 11:34 pm

I am actually nauseous after watching this. These parents are either nuts, ignorant, or obvious exploiters. The sheer ignorance is appalling. "How would you speak to a Chinese?" The story of how Samuel Boutwell came to be "born again" ought to be in textbooks under the heading religious child abuse. What kind of parent tells their child, "you are going to hell?" How can someone be that cruel?

Other Comments by Prom_STar

20. Comment #129261 by Quine on February 18, 2008 at 11:41 pm

Very sad.

Other Comments by Quine

21. Comment #129262 by Diacanu on February 18, 2008 at 11:49 pm

Yep, them kids are broken.

Scratch another generation.

Other Comments by Diacanu

22. Comment #129263 by Radesq on February 18, 2008 at 11:55 pm

Kids don't always grow up to be what their parents intended.

Other Comments by Radesq

23. Comment #129264 by Diacanu on February 18, 2008 at 11:58 pm

Say, wasn't there a PBS documentary on that one evangelist kid from the 80's who was on Donahue, and how he turned out?

Think he realized how he was being exploited, and snapped out of it.

Ahh...fuck, details are all swiss cheesed away in my head, I can see the kid's face....

Other Comments by Diacanu

24. Comment #129266 by Diacanu on February 19, 2008 at 12:03 am

Marjoe!!

Hah!! Thank you, Google!!

Other Comments by Diacanu

25. Comment #129268 by Radesq on February 19, 2008 at 12:08 am

Thank posters 2, 10 & 16 as well might have saved you a few keystrokes Diacanu.

Other Comments by Radesq

26. Comment #129269 by Diacanu on February 19, 2008 at 12:09 am

D'OOOHH!!

Other Comments by Diacanu

27. Comment #129270 by magnus150 on February 19, 2008 at 12:11 am

Utterly terrifying and sickening.

Other Comments by magnus150

28. Comment #129271 by notsobad on February 19, 2008 at 12:14 am

Someone tell those obese rednecks that gluttony is a deadly sin according to their fantasy.

Other Comments by notsobad

29. Comment #129273 by YssiBoo on February 19, 2008 at 12:17 am

I don't think I can stomach this early in the morning. If that is not a form of child abuse, I will never know what is.

Other Comments by YssiBoo

30. Comment #129277 by Radesq on February 19, 2008 at 12:25 am

Yes magnus150, but it is interesting how the same cloak can cover three rather different manifestations of human sickness.
That is why I found this short film to be so well done. Religious fervor and evangelicalism used to enable - 1. hate (including self hatred) & bigotry, 2. charlatanism and greed, 3. cult of personality and (at least insinuated) incestuous pedophilia.

Is there another mindset other than religious superstition that would allow, much less glorify, such behavior? If so let's see the evidence for it.

Other Comments by Radesq

31. Comment #129279 by Sarion on February 19, 2008 at 12:27 am

@12:28
"Samuel gets home schooled by his mom, Vicky. But like any 7 year old boy, he occasionally struggles with the rules.

(Samuel says he doesn't want to do something, they have a small argument. After that...)

Samuel: "Please don't put your hand on me, please."
Vicky: "Can you turn the camera off, just for a few minutes?"
Samuel's parents firmly believe disobedience deserves punishment.

Vicky: "I do believe in the bible, I believe the bible says 'spare not the rod on your child
and do my children get spankings? Yes. I wish they were perfect little angels and never needed it."

-----------

I wonder how much critical thinking is a part of little Samuel's upbringing. Do parents have the right to brainwash their kids in this way and keep them away from formal education? I will hazard a guess as to how old he believes the world is, etcetera. Nauseating.

Other Comments by Sarion

32. Comment #129282 by RHR on February 19, 2008 at 12:31 am

04.49: father-"..God has jused animals. He used a donkey. The donkey spoke and it saved a mans life.."
Is this really in the bible? A talking donkey?

EDIT: I googled it. There really is a talking donkey in there! Numbers 22:21->

Other Comments by RHR

33. Comment #129289 by freiversuch on February 19, 2008 at 12:46 am

RHR, yes, it's in the bible, old testament to be precise. (Numbers 22-24). The story is about a seer called Balaam. Quite a funny read.

In general this video ranks in the top region of the saddest and most disturbing videos I have ever seen.

Other Comments by freiversuch

34. Comment #129296 by MPhil on February 19, 2008 at 1:10 am

Aren't there laws against beating children in the US? I know there are in Germany. 'spare not the rod'... one more way in which this specific form of religion is or leads to child abuse. Disgusting.

Other Comments by MPhil

35. Comment #129297 by quill on February 19, 2008 at 1:11 am

There are much more bizarre things in the Bible than a talking donkey.

This video really should be in the "favorite articles" section, imho. Even though it's deeply disturbing.

MPhil, no, there are no laws against beating children in the US. In fact, it's a national pastime. When we can't beat our own kids, we beat our neighbors' kids. And their grandparents, too. We Americans are an extremely violent people, unlike you Germans.

Other Comments by quill

36. Comment #129309 by LorienRyan on February 19, 2008 at 1:25 am

They really believe what they're doing is right, crazy stuff. I have more respect for them than Alistair McGrath or Rowan Williams though, who, IMO, are just sleazy.

Other Comments by LorienRyan

37. Comment #129312 by Adam Morrison on February 19, 2008 at 1:26 am

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little....

Other Comments by Adam Morrison

38. Comment #129313 by HunterZolomon on February 19, 2008 at 1:27 am

GAAH!! It's Jesus Camp 2: Suffer The Little Children

This documentary certainly gives Dr. Dawkins child abuse argument credibility.

Other Comments by HunterZolomon

39. Comment #129319 by HunterZolomon on February 19, 2008 at 1:30 am

32. Comment #129282 by RHR on February 19, 2008 at 12:31 am

"Is this really in the bible? A talking donkey?
EDIT: I googled it. There really is a talking donkey in there! Numbers 22:21-> "

Hmmm, I thought they'd been watching Shrek...

Other Comments by HunterZolomon

40. Comment #129324 by quill on February 19, 2008 at 1:32 am

Every atheist should know the Bible inside and out. Did you know the King James Version mentions unicorns six times? It actually talks more about unicorns than about gay people. :)

Other Comments by quill

41. Comment #129342 by PJG on February 19, 2008 at 1:54 am

I feel physically sick watching this and can't take more than about five minutes at a time. I'll come back to it later when my stomach has settled.

What is going on in the US? I'm not being patronising - I am very much aware that the flow is heading towards Britain, but what can we do to stop this?

Is one of the problems "home-schooling"? Are there any national exams that the children HAVE to take to show that they are being given a general education at home or do they simply withdraw from any recognised education?

Whenever I see anything about home-schooling, it appears to be only the sick/deeply deluded and/or stupid parents who do this. Apologies if I am generalising on very, very little knowledge about it, but that is how it seems from my home in the UK.

Other Comments by PJG

42. Comment #129348 by MPhil on February 19, 2008 at 2:15 am

Whoa, quill. That was uncalled for! And pretty indecent.

I didn't call Americans violent. It's just that some countries have no specific laws against parents slapping their children in the face or spanking them for discipline. I was merely inquiring whether there are specific laws against such disciplinary methods or whether this falls under assault and is persecuted as such.

Other Comments by MPhil

43. Comment #129351 by Incredulous on February 19, 2008 at 2:19 am

I saw this on British television and have never felt so disgusted by the behaviour and attitudes of some of my fellow adult humans. What happens when these kids start to want to develop their own points of view? Any lunatic can bully small children into deranged beliefs before they develop the necessary abilities to think for themselves.

Other Comments by Incredulous

44. Comment #129356 by quill on February 19, 2008 at 2:32 am

Is one of the problems "home-schooling"? Are there any national exams that the children HAVE to take to show that they are being given a general education at home or do they simply withdraw from any recognised education?

Evangelicals who can't afford to send their kids to a private evangelical school home-school them instead. Then when they "graduate", they either don't attend college, or they attend a Christian college, often an unaccredited one. So they basically go through their entire lives without any real education.

Whenever I see anything about home-schooling, it appears to be only the sick/deeply deluded and/or stupid parents who do this. Apologies if I am generalising on very, very little knowledge about it, but that is how it seems from my home in the UK.

No, you're correct, something like 95% of homeschooled kids are evangelical. Or as Professor Dawkins would say, have evangelical parents.

What is going on in the US? I'm not being patronising - I am very much aware that the flow is heading towards Britain, but what can we do to stop this?

I'm not sure that anything can be done at this point. Sometimes a civilization just implodes. There are too many things that have gone wrong all within the span of a generation.

Every year, the percentage of religious people in the US shrinks, and the percentage of nonreligious people grows. But by the time the roles are completely reversed, what kind of society will we have left?

I keep coming back to the media's role in all of this, but the plain fact is that something like this will never be shown on American TV. It doesn't matter how liberal the network, they'll never show it. Even Jesus Camp was never shown in mainstream theaters. Expelled will be; Jesus Camp was not. It doesn't get out there. American bookstores still generally do not sell Dawkins' books. D'Souza's books yes, Dawkins' books no. We have to buy them online, just as we have to watch films like this online, because nothing critical of religion, nothing with any substance whatsoever, is ever presented by our shallow, cowardly, money-driven, ratings-obsessed media.

Other Comments by quill

45. Comment #129357 by nanaj on February 19, 2008 at 2:33 am

I watched this programme on Channel 4 the other night with a mixture of horror and sadness - the lowest point was when the 7 yr old boy, taken into the big city to interact with non-believers was utterly bewildered and frightened and sat with tears rolling down his face witnessing the hostile response from 'normal' people - it was gut-wrenching: I hope Radesq is right and these children recover, but what scars this 'abuse' will leave

Other Comments by nanaj

46. Comment #129369 by emmet on February 19, 2008 at 3:06 am

It was very hard to watch, like torture.

The 7 year old Floridian boy's story was particularly disturbing to me: "saved" at the age of 3, his father having terrorised him by telling him that he was going to hell for not obeying his parents. We can only imagine how vivid a picture of hell was created in the child's mind between beatings. To see him "preaching" words that he could not possibly understand made me cringe.

These children do what they do because they have been trained, like Pavlov's dogs, that it's a sure-fire way, maybe the only way, of getting positive attention from their parents. That huge crowds of people turn up to see and hear these poor brainwashed children, and think it's OK, disturbs me.

On the other hand, I think there was some cause for hope: the security man saying, "It's a shame that you bring your son into this too, sir" and the incredulity and ridicule from the crowds in New York. Too often, I think, we tar "the Americans" with the same brush and assume that, with the exception of a small minority, they would approve of this sort of thing. Not so, it seems.

Other Comments by emmet

47. Comment #129370 by pfunk on February 19, 2008 at 3:08 am

It was a bit weird when Samuel's father, Cletus, referred to his son as "Samuel my brother..." during the baptism.
Sickening.

Other Comments by pfunk

48. Comment #129374 by PJG on February 19, 2008 at 3:19 am

HunterZolomon

from Skeptics Annotated Bible (always good for a laugh on a damp Tuesday!)

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com

Balaam's talking donkey
"And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times? And Balaam said unto the ass..."

Balaam and his donkey have a nice little chat. Apparently, they do this often, since Balaam isn't the least bit surprised when his donkey starts talking to him.

Other Comments by PJG

49. Comment #129376 by Lycosid on February 19, 2008 at 3:22 am

If Terry's mother doesn't die of heart disease it will be a miracle.

Other Comments by Lycosid

50. Comment #129382 by PJG on February 19, 2008 at 3:30 am

Thanks Quill... that is interesting, though not encouraging!

I come onto this site on most days and find myself either inspired (by the people on here and some of the articles) or deeply depressed (by things like this video). Today is not a good day... I'll have to go and stroke a cat (a remedy for all ills) :o)

Other Comments by PJG