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Monday, March 17, 2008 | Reason : Wingnut News | print version Print | Comments

Document New Atheists Are Not Great

by Christianity Today

Thanks to Florian for the link.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/march/25.79.html?start=2

New Atheists Are Not Great
In What's So Great About Christianity, Dinesh D'Souza is skeptical of skepticism and enthusiastic about the faith.

By: Tony Snow

Dinesh D'Souza is skeptical of skepticism and enthusiastic about the faith. by Tony Snow There are two types of Christian apologetics. One makes the positive case for faith; the other responds to critics. Dinesh D'Souza's delightful book, What's So Great About Christianity, falls into the second category. It sets out to rebut recent exuberant atheist tracts, such as Christopher Hitchens's God Is Not Great and Richard Dawkins's The God Delusion.

This is a more difficult task than one might expect: Atheist works tend to combine argument with large doses of bitter biography. Every chapter of Dawkins's book, for instance, describes unpleasant encounters with believing doltshate-mail writers, Jehovah's Witnesses, and the like. Hitchens recalls murderous fanatics in Bosnia, Afghanistan, and the Levant, and his blood-chilling encounters with a childhood schoolmarm.

While the chief atheists write beautifully, their works share a telling defect. They seethe with disapproval of God. Dawkins captures this trend in describing the YHWH of the Old Testament as "arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." Such invective clings like chewing gum to atheist polemics and raises the question of why these people are so worked up about a creator they don't believe exists. In any event, D'Souza admirably separates the stickum from the arguments.

Consider Hitchens's complaint that "religion poisons everything." This wild swing places bin Laden, the pope, and Martin Luther King Jr. on equal footing. D'Souza answers on behalf of Christianity. He describes how Christian principles of free choice and human dignity laid the groundwork for democratic political systems built on inalienable human rights. They inspired free markets in economics and intellectual pursuit. Christian theologians fathered modern science. The world even now takes for granted America's uncommon generosity, especially in times of disaster and crisis. These traits spring directly from our faith.

D'Souza also refutes the common charge that Christianity has unleashed humankind's most murderous impulses. The most-cited atrocities are either overblown or misrepresented: the Inquisition claimed 2,000 lives over three and a half centuries. The Salem witch trials produced fewer than 25 executions. Recent warsthe Israel-Palestine conflict, Iraq, and Northern Irelandstem mostly from ethnic and political discord. While atrocities violate Christian doctrine, they're of a piece with atheismwhich largely bears responsibility for the bloodiest century in history.

D'Souza takes up a second major tenet of the New Atheismthat religion and science cannot coexist. He defangs Darwinists by demonstrating the compatibility of evolutionary theory and Christian doctrine, and reiterates Aquinas's assertion that reason and faith complement each other.

Yet science has insurmountable limits. It cannot answer empirical questions about the origins of the universe, for instance. D'Souza quotes Nobel laureate Arno Penzias and astronomer Robert Jastrow to the effect that the Big Bang leads us back to a moment when everything beganand delivers us not to the doorstep of atheism but theology.

Dawkins's shrill dissent is telling. He dismisses as "infantile" the arguments for God's existence offered by Aquinas and Anselm: "The very idea that grand conclusions could follow from such logomatist trickery offends me aesthetically." This is an odd claim, considering it appears in the midst of a "logomatist" polemic. It also dodges the big question: If reason can explain everything, why can't it explain where things come from?

Ethics produces an even greater quandary. Moral laws have changed less over the millennia than the recognized laws of physics and mathematics. The ethical principles that undergird the Ten Commandments' prohibitions against stealing and murder are recognized by people in New York, New Guinea, Timbuktu, and even bin Laden's cave, while scientific theory has undergone numerous revolutionsand will continue to do so.

So what explains the uniformity of moral laws? As former atheist Antony Flew notes in There Is a God, musings about the origin of life and virtue lead directly to God. So when atheists invoke natural law standards, they embrace the Creator they most wish to deny.

On the broader issue of faith and reason, D'Souza states the obvious: "Religious faith is not in opposition to reason. The purpose of faith is to discover truths that are of the highest importance to us through purely natural means." He quotes philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein: "[E]ven if all possible scientific questions are answered, the problems of life still have not been touched at all." Darwinists may be able to describe how older bees, wasps, ants, and termites help their younger siblings, but they can't explain why Raoul Wallenberg became a martyr for captive Jews.

Atheism fails as a creed because it lacks humanity. It destroys the wall of sanctity that defends the weak from the strong. It spawned history's most savage movementsfrom the French Terror to the Stalinist purges. None of the atheistic alternatives has survived because reason just doesn't make a satisfying god.

This leads us to perhaps the strongest argument against atheism, which D'Souza makes only indirectlythe argument from experience. Atheism cannot reach our hearts. A rigorous atheist cannot console in a time of grief, cannot explain love, cannot sigh in happy wonder at life's endless surprises. He can only utter, "What is, is."

Christianity, in contrast, offers the divine "I Am"God, speaking through Scripture, saying what he means and meaning what he says. In the person of Jesus Christ, he taught. He ministered. He saved. He chased away the moneychangers and wept at the news of Lazarus's death. He lived so boldly that he had to be killedyet did not stay in the tomb.

No other religion dares claim that God walked among us as fully human. None describes the Lord as a servant rather than overlord. None contemplates an Almighty who humbly offers the bread and cup of love or gives his children complete freedom to grasp his outstretched hand or slap it away.

Every child has felt a shiver of God as night closes and the world grows quiet. Adults, amid the bustle and din, know he's there. When trouble comes, we whisper his name. We cannot see, hear, or yet walk with him. But from time to time we experience a presence that defies description. The God of love is also the God of surprise. Atheists deny something profoundly obvious, something deeply unforgettable, that's woven into our souls.

This explains D'Souza's opening assertion that "God is back. Christianity is winning and secularism is losing. God is the future and atheism is on its way out." Atheists may be selling books, but they're not making converts. Christianity is, especially in places and congregations that take Scripture seriouslyand joyously.

D'Souza calls atheists cowards. Not quite: They're like the man who perishes in a fire because he refuses to believe the net below will hold. What's So Great About Christianity performs a wonderful and overdue service. It engages atheists exhaustively and carefully, exposing atheism more as a bundle of sentiments than a coherent doctrine.

Tony Snow, former press secretary for President George W. Bush.


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1. Comment #145103 by nickthelight on March 17, 2008 at 9:01 am

 avatarThere is nothing 'new' about disbelief.

Other Comments by nickthelight

2. Comment #145107 by al-rawandi on March 17, 2008 at 9:09 am

 avatarThe 10 Commandments are the foundation of morality?


Does he plan to go out and slaughter Hindus for their worship of multiple gods and idols?

Other Comments by al-rawandi

3. Comment #145109 by Steve Zara on March 17, 2008 at 9:11 am

 avatar
No other religion dares claim that God walked among us as fully human. None describes the Lord as a servant rather than overlord. None contemplates an Almighty who humbly offers the bread and cup of love or gives his children complete freedom to grasp his outstretched hand or slap it away.


Translation: Christianity is so crazy it MUST be true. (I have actually heard this argument used many times before)

Other Comments by Steve Zara

4. Comment #145110 by Quetzalcoatl on March 17, 2008 at 9:12 am

 avatar
Atheism cannot reach our hearts. A rigorous atheist cannot console in a time of grief, cannot explain love, cannot sigh in happy wonder at life's endless surprises. He can only utter, "What is, is."


Moron.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

5. Comment #145111 by Stephen Maxwell on March 17, 2008 at 9:12 am

"They're like the man who perishes in a fire because he refuses to believe the net below will hold."

One of the more ludicrous statements I've heard in recent memory.

Other Comments by Stephen Maxwell

6. Comment #145113 by Steve Zara on March 17, 2008 at 9:15 am

 avatarComment #145110 by Quetzalcoatl

I find that statement you quote very offensive. I have had dear friends die in recent years, and they required no religion to console them, and their secular funerals were sad but wonderful celebrations of life. (The most recent one, last year, was for someone who was a fan of Monty Python. We walked out of the funeral to the sound of "Always look on the bright side of life" from Life of Brian. I knew what it was like to laugh and cry at the same time).

Other Comments by Steve Zara

7. Comment #145114 by TheSwede on March 17, 2008 at 9:16 am

"The world even now takes for granted America's uncommon generosity, especially in times of disaster and crisis. These traits spring directly from our faith."

This argument doesn't hold empirically. The most generous nations aren't the Christian ones but the secular ones.

Who is really "turning the other cheek?" one might also ask? Is it our Christian Nation to the west that hasn't had a decade without participating in a war for as long as anyone can remember? Or is it the world's most atheistic nation, Sweden (where only 8% believe in God), that hasn't been in a war for over 200 years?

Other Comments by TheSwede

8. Comment #145116 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on March 17, 2008 at 9:17 am

Steve. I think always look on the bright side of life is one of the most poignant songs ever written.

Other Comments by ThoughtsonCommonToad

9. Comment #145118 by discipline on March 17, 2008 at 9:17 am

> Atheists may be selling books
> but they're not making converts.

The author apparently hasn't seen the Pew survey, which shows that atheists/agnostics/unaffiliated is the fastest growing segment of the US population:

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/newsroom/non_religious_outnumber/

and

http://humaniststudies.org/enews/?id=281&article=0

Other Comments by discipline

10. Comment #145120 by Apathy personified on March 17, 2008 at 9:18 am

This is article is long, is it worth me reading or shall I assume it's full of the generic lies and bullshit?

Other Comments by Apathy personified

11. Comment #145121 by Saerain on March 17, 2008 at 9:20 am

 avatarI had actually hoped that Tony Snow was a marginally intelligent man outside of the very difficult job of apologising for the Bush administration, but now evidently he is just finding other insufferable men to defend.

Other Comments by Saerain

12. Comment #145122 by al-rawandi on March 17, 2008 at 9:22 am

 avatarSaerain,




Snow Job was his nickname. Apparently well earned.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

13. Comment #145124 by Philip1978 on March 17, 2008 at 9:29 am

 avatarD Souza is a disgusting man, I really can't find words to describe how much I am offended by his dismissal of non religious people as he has been quoted by Quetz.

I remember that article he did about the school shootings and the highly offensive things he said, even after that brilliant man wrote back to him explaining how he was dealing with it.

This is definitely one of the things I dislike about how religion can make people think, the total lack of understanding of what it is to love and have compassion for people without having to claim a higher, invisible, authority to make it somehow more perfect.

Disgusting

Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

14. Comment #145125 by F_A_F on March 17, 2008 at 9:31 am

""arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." Such invective clings like chewing gum to atheist polemics and raises the question of why these people are so worked up about a creator they don't believe exists."

Surely all that description stems from what anyone could read and understand based upon the text presented as the basis of many religions.....the old testament. Atheists haven't made those descriptions up, anyone who has read the old testament could come to the same conclusion.

Other Comments by F_A_F

15. Comment #145127 by Saerain on March 17, 2008 at 9:32 am

 avatar
Atheists may be selling books, but they're not making converts. Christianity is --
Christianity makes more converts amongst those who are already religious. On the other hand, agnostic atheism is the default position one is born into, and the point is that Christianity is converting fewer atheists than ever before.

That is to say: the rate at which Christians are failing to convert new generations of atheists is surpassing the rate at which they are succeeding in converting other theists.

D'Souza's statement is correct, but misleading.

Other Comments by Saerain

16. Comment #145128 by Clapton_is_God on March 17, 2008 at 9:35 am

 avatar"They seethe with disapproval of God."

I just seethe whenever an apologist suggests that atheists have a god to seethe at.

Why don't they get the simple fact that as far as atheists are concerned, there is no god to hate, dislike, detest, abhor, seethe at or even have mild disapproval of. THERE IS JUST NOT A GOD AT ALL, never has been, never will be.

I (almost) give up trying to drill this simple fact into them.

CiG

Other Comments by Clapton_is_God

17. Comment #145129 by Double Bass Atheist on March 17, 2008 at 9:41 am

 avatarAnother irritating pile of feces for the 'fleas' to snack on.

There is so much to pick apart from this drivel. Skipping the obvious assertions that atheists are responsible for more deaths then theists (this one's old and tired), I'll pick just a few others:
Yet science has insurmountable limits. It cannot answer empirical questions about the origins of the universe, for instance.
But religion can?!?! So, why is a made-up answer better then no answer at all?!

If reason can explain everything, why can't it explain where things come from?
'Reason' CAN explain where things come from. We've already shown, for example, how the heavier elements came from the lighter elements via fusion in stars. Of course, there are hundreds more examples, but why bother? These people will never take the time to read the complex subject matter. 'God did it' is just so much easier.

Moral laws have changed less over the millennia than the recognized laws of physics and mathematics

WTF???!!! That has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard. The mathematical laws have never changed! They are the cornerstone of all understanding. The laws of physics haven't changed either, they've only been enhanced (ie. Newton/Einstein on gravity). BUT, "moral law" changes almost daily... courts review/reinterpret law, governments pass new ones, and even the Catholic Chuch just passed a new set of sins!!!
Hypocrites!

Atheism cannot reach our hearts. A rigorous atheist cannot console in a time of grief, cannot explain love, cannot sigh in happy wonder at life's endless surprises. He can only utter, "What is, is."
This is perhaps the most disgusting part of this diatribe. These people simply cannot fathom the idea of life without their sky daddy! Why can't we "console in a time of grief" or "sigh in happy wonder at life's endless surprises"? I have been to many funerals, expressed my condolences, and cried with the family. 'God' was not ever mentioned! I am constantly in 'happy wonder' as new discoveries are made!

Other Comments by Double Bass Atheist

18. Comment #145130 by steveroot on March 17, 2008 at 9:42 am

 avatar
A rigorous atheist cannot console in a time of grief, cannot explain love, cannot sigh in happy wonder at life's endless surprises. He can only utter, "What is, is."

I wonder where he got this idea. I have experienced the grief of a parent's death, loved the same wife for going on 26 years, and shed tears at the birth of two children, among other things. Yet I have never to my best recollection uttered the prescribed words. What is wrong with me?
Ste5e

Other Comments by steveroot

19. Comment #145132 by Quetzalcoatl on March 17, 2008 at 9:42 am

 avatarCompare and contrast this:

exposing atheism more as a bundle of sentiments than a coherent doctrine


with this:

Every child has felt a shiver of God as night closes and the world grows quiet. Adults, amid the bustle and din, know he's there. When trouble comes, we whisper his name. We cannot see, hear, or yet walk with him. But from time to time we experience a presence that defies description. The God of love is also the God of surprise.


Another believer who is oblivious to the concept of irony.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

20. Comment #145133 by Apathy personified on March 17, 2008 at 9:47 am

Sigh, i did read it, what a waste of time.

I agree with Steve and Double Bass atheist, that is probably the worst and maybe, the only really offensive thing he states.

Other Comments by Apathy personified

21. Comment #145135 by STLstrike3 on March 17, 2008 at 9:55 am

 avatarI seriously needed compazine to even make it 2/3rds of the way through this piece of apologetic drivel.

Did you all find that, at nearly every "point" that he made, that you wanted to interject and force him to reply?

"Such invective clings like chewing gum to atheist polemics and raises the question of why these people are so worked up about a creator they don't believe exists."

Um, perhaps because the followers of this god are responsible for keeping enclaves of our society in the dark ages and hindering scientific progress by brainwashing their litters of children into the same delusion about a sky fairy?


"So when atheists invoke natural law standards, they embrace the Creator they most wish to deny."

Lies. The creators of this religion would have made tree ornaments out of my testicles if I had attempted to explain such "natural law standards" back in the day.

"He (D'Souza) describes how Christian principles of free choice and human dignity laid the groundwork for democratic political systems built on inalienable human rights."

How does D'Souza continue to get away with this ridiculous lie? When he printed a version of this comment in USA Today, I almost swore off newspapers forever. When D'Souza speaks, I literally get nauseous. Someone that stupid should not be making more money than I do.

"Religious faith is not in opposition to reason."

If you ever needed someone to say something that let you know they will forever lack the intellectual weapons to spar with you... that sentence should remove all doubt.

Other Comments by STLstrike3

22. Comment #145136 by Verylee on March 17, 2008 at 9:56 am

 avatar
exposing atheism more as a bundle of sentiments than a coherent doctrine.

Damn! And there I was thinking all along that Atheists had a common creed! Well spotted.

Other Comments by Verylee

23. Comment #145139 by FightingFalcon on March 17, 2008 at 10:00 am

 avatar"He describes how Christian principles of free choice and human dignity laid the groundwork for democratic political systems built on inalienable human rights. They inspired free markets in economics and intellectual pursuit."

I stopped reading at this point. Christianity is responsible for democratic ideals and free markets? I know Tony Snow is just a talking-head for the conservative element in America (he was, after all, President Bush's press secretary) but comments like that are just ridiculous. A large portion of Enlightenment thinkers were Deists at best and rabidly anti-religious Atheists at "worst".

Other Comments by FightingFalcon

24. Comment #145141 by Steve Zara on March 17, 2008 at 10:01 am

 avatar
Damn! And there I was thinking all along that Atheists had a common creed! Well spotted.


Maybe we should get D'Souza to debate David Robertson on this matter.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

25. Comment #145142 by al-rawandi on March 17, 2008 at 10:02 am

 avatarSteve,



That would be like watching two hens in a cock fight.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

26. Comment #145148 by mr-zero on March 17, 2008 at 10:05 am

 avatarApathy personified - don't bother - same old nonsense.
Z

Other Comments by mr-zero

27. Comment #145155 by Arcturus on March 17, 2008 at 10:17 am

 avatarJebus F-ing Christ!

Look how's talking about love and caring for the poor and weak. The spokesman for the Bush administration. The guys how lied the whole world just to go on their Iraq adventure.

This guy just makes me puke!


I can understand Hedges, but Snow and Bush? What kind of Christians are they? How many killed Iraqis do they have on their conscience.

And Dinesh, well we know him ... he's a moron.

Other Comments by Arcturus

28. Comment #145156 by DamnDirtyApe on March 17, 2008 at 10:18 am

A few Jefferson quotes can undermine most of what the former press secretary of one of America's worst presidents is saying:



There is no act, however virtuous, for which ingenuity may not find some bad motive.

Bigotry is the disease of ignorance, of morbid minds; enthusiasm of the free and buoyant. Education & free discussion are the antidotes of both.

The Newtonian principle of gravitation is now more firmly established, on the basis of reason, than it would be were the government to step in, and to make it an article of necessary faith. Reason and experiment have been indulged, and error has fled before them.

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.



In conclusion, Snow is nothing. He also missed the point that we atheists are technically agnostics (in the same sense we are teapot agnostics that is) as well. I think he's just trying to appeal to his former base and keep idiots throwing money at him.

Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe

29. Comment #145157 by Johan on March 17, 2008 at 10:18 am

"Tony Snow, former press secretary for President George W. Bush."

That about says it all, doesn't it. The only good word in that sentence is "former".

Cheers

Other Comments by Johan

30. Comment #145159 by petermun on March 17, 2008 at 10:21 am

"A rigorous atheist cannot console in a time of grief" - what absolute tripe. When first wife died 6 years ago I found many of those with faith who tried to console me made things so very much worse - it was those without faith who were the greatest consolation - and the most "real".

Other Comments by petermun

31. Comment #145166 by irate_atheist on March 17, 2008 at 10:31 am

 avatar13. Comment #145124 by Philip1978 -
D Souza is a disgusting man, I really find words to describe how much I am offended by his dismissal of non religious people as he has been quoted by Quetz.
I certainly don't lack the words. He is beyond a fucktard. He is a cuntbone.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

32. Comment #145167 by al-rawandi on March 17, 2008 at 10:31 am

 avatarpetermun,




A friend and I (both atheists) just found out a thrid friend comitted suicide just yesterday. I find it more consoling speaking to him, than to a cocaphony of religious idiots debating which form of the afterlife he will be tortured in.

This theory that atheists cannot feel emotion or grief is the most pernicious of lies. It is the same as the blood libel against Jews. Absolutely revolting and below contempt.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

33. Comment #145168 by alltruism on March 17, 2008 at 10:32 am

 avatar"Ethics produces an even greater quandary. Moral laws have changed less over the millennia than the recognized laws of physics and mathematics. The ethical principles that undergird the Ten Commandments' prohibitions against stealing and murder are recognized by people in New York, New Guinea, Timbuktu, and even bin Laden's cave"

..well, this is nothing more than dishonest.... murder and theft are obviously wrong in most circumstances (and were considered wrong before the 10 Commandments), but most of the rest of the 10 commandments are not considered important these days - we specifically DO have the right to worship as we please and make all the graven images we want. These freedoms specifically contradict the 10 Commandments.

These jealous religious commandments aside, genuine human ethics has perhaps not changed all that much, but that would be because human nature has not changed much. Evolution takes a long time ;-)

Other Comments by alltruism

34. Comment #145170 by burkbraun on March 17, 2008 at 10:35 am

"None of the atheistic alternatives has survived because reason just doesn't make a satisfying god"

Mr. Snow explains what he is really about- making a nice god, and then imagining that this god actually exists. What could be more transparent, except, sadly, to himself? No wonder he merrily flacked for the most self-deluded administration in history.

Other Comments by burkbraun

35. Comment #145172 by Prom_STar on March 17, 2008 at 10:35 am

All D'Souza's points I've seen before in a debate between him and Hitchens--where Hitchens kicked his ass, showed his arguments for what they are: a house of cards.

Again, as Hitchens said, same old shit. Over and over. There will never be a new argument from these people. Some of them are even proud of this fact. I have a friend who was absolutely dismayed when I told him I would not believe in evolution if given legitimate evidence against. He couldn't understand how I could abandon a belief so easily. I guess that's what Dennet's called believing in belief. Stick to your guns regardless of the evidence--madness.

Other Comments by Prom_STar

36. Comment #145174 by al-rawandi on March 17, 2008 at 10:38 am

 avataraltruism,



"Evil evil monkey"!

Other Comments by al-rawandi

37. Comment #145178 by Geoff on March 17, 2008 at 10:44 am

 avatarSteve #6: Thanks for that; that's exactly how I feel, in fact I've already told my family I want that song played at my funeral.

I've posted this before, but it seems apposite to repost it in this thread:

My brother died in February 2006, and a small group of us got together to arrange his funeral as we knew he would have wanted it - he was equally as atheistic as we were.

We interspersed personal readings from each of us with a selection of his favourite music.

Independently, we had all come up with two very similar themes to the readings, although the details were very different. One was that all of us brought humour into them, the other was that all of us mentioned "Lord of the Rings".

this is the full text of my bit:

Tony was so many things to so many different people - little brother, big brother, dad, best mate, partner, drinking buddy... we're going to take turns talking about him from all the different points of view.

To me, of course, he was my little brother (and best mate)...I remember being so thrilled the day he was born, even though I was less than a year old at the time! All through our childhood we did everything together, mostly involving getting into trouble of one kind or another.

Too many stories about the daft things we did to talk about now, but I remember on many occasions fishing him out of the duckpond in the park (which was no cleaner in those days than it is now!). Of course, I then had to take home this wet, slimy, smelly object, and face my mum! As usual, Tony got away with it - I was the older so it was my fault.

Shortly after we started at the Grammar school, Andy came along - which thrilled both of us...we now had a new toy! Even better, Andy could take over the responsibility of being fished out of the duckpond. Of course, I then had to take home this wet, slimy, smelly object, and face my mum! As usual, Tony got away with it - I was the oldest so it was my fault!

In our mid-teens we both discovered three things that were to become recurrent themes for the next 35 years or so. One was trad bitter, and we'll be covering that topic later in the Orwell. Another was girls - but don't worry, I'm not going to expand on that topic! The third was the Lord of the Rings books, and that became the nearest thing we had to a religion, even trying to learn the elvish language. We, along with most of our friends, effectively became "The Fellowship of the Ring", a connection that has lasted all through the subsequent 35 years.

I suspect most of you won't have recognised the music that was playing as we came in. It was taken from The "Fellowship of the Ring" film soundtrack, and the title is "the breaking of the fellowship". It's not really broken, of course, but it does feel as if a bit's fallen off.
I wanted to end my part with a quote from Lord of the Rings. There are literally thousands I could have chosen, but in the end I went for this one, which I can say in elvish:

LÃ\'¡ equen: Ã\'¡va nainuvalyÃ\'«; an lÃ\'¡ ilyÃ\'« nÃ\'­reli nar Ã\'ºmiÃ\'©o.

In English, that's:

I will not say: do not weep; for not all tears are an evil.


Other Comments by Geoff

38. Comment #145180 by Arcturus on March 17, 2008 at 10:44 am

 avatarI would like to see Dinesh debunk George Carlin's social jokes.


There are 2 new clips on youtube. Just GREAT!


http://youtube.com/watch?v=HJr_ggTeq64
http://youtube.com/watch?v=31M7bXRwrjg

Enjoy!

Other Comments by Arcturus

39. Comment #145183 by CJ2116 on March 17, 2008 at 10:47 am

 avatarThe most horrible thing about reading these type of articles is that the people who write them assume Atheists are immoral and "empty". How long can this blatant ignorance last? It's so infuriating having to read the same lies over and over again!

Other Comments by CJ2116

40. Comment #145191 by B12 on March 17, 2008 at 10:52 am

PromSTar_
I think it's important to make the distinction between "believing" in evolution and "accepting" evolution. You either accept or reject it. Eugenie Scott spoke at my university last year and stressed this issue. It's very important for us to use this type of language. When the believer hears the word "belief," they immediately place you on the same playing field as themselves.

Other Comments by B12

41. Comment #145201 by Arcturus on March 17, 2008 at 11:08 am

 avatar"exposing atheism more as a bundle of sentiments than a coherent doctrine" ???

Only Dinesh can pull off this kind of stupidity. First they argue that Atheism is a religion with its own doctrine. They write books to prove that atheism is not a coherent doctrine.

That's a total self-delusional waste of time. If he had listened to atheists from the beginning he would have found that atheism is not a doctrine.

Other Comments by Arcturus

42. Comment #145205 by FSMTeapot on March 17, 2008 at 11:11 am

"No other religion dares claim that God walked among us as fully human. None describes the Lord as a servant rather than overlord. None contemplates an Almighty who humbly offers the bread and cup of love or gives his children complete freedom to grasp his outstretched hand or slap it away."

Aren't there precursors to all these ideas in Greek and Norse Myths and other ancient mythologies? In Norse myths the gods are technically mortal, and spend an awful lot of time as beggars and the like in people's houses.

Other Comments by FSMTeapot

43. Comment #145206 by Skep on March 17, 2008 at 11:12 am

D'Souza calls atheists cowards. Not quite: They're like the man who perishes in a fire because he refuses to believe the net below will hold.


Yes, the invisible, faith-based net that all the previous victims fell through because it doesn't actually exist!

Tony Snow. Paid professional liar or self-deluded twit? Or both?

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44. Comment #145210 by debaser71 on March 17, 2008 at 11:19 am

To me it seems as though hard core right wing neo-conism is in disfavor here in the US. Folk like Tony Snow and DD represent the 30% of so folk who still think that G.W. Bush is a good president. Not all christians are right wing in their politics and I just wonder what sort of readership Christinaity Today gets. Do they get liberal christians, catholics, evangelicals, etc reading their magazine? It would seem to me that for some christians agreeing with folk like Tony Snow and DD would make them feel a bit icky.

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45. Comment #145214 by al-rawandi on March 17, 2008 at 11:21 am

 avatarSkpe,




This presumes that they can see the net. If I saw a net, I would take my chances. A better analogy.

There is no evidence of a fire. A neighbor did mention he feels a bit warm. Then a neighbor, of questionable moral judgement (always has young boys coming and going) tells you that there was a guy, thousands of years ago, who said there is an invisible net outside of your building. You look out and see no net. Scientists have done numerous studies, showing no net. And that this net theory is often demonstrably false. Furthermore the neighbor when questioned won't answer on the nature of his belief, and simply tells you that Stalin and Hitler didn't believe in nets either.


Excuse me for not jumping.

Tony Snow, is not only disgusting, he is stupid too.

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46. Comment #145218 by cowalker on March 17, 2008 at 11:27 am

Y'know I find this has been more of a bug than a feature.
Moral laws have changed less over the millennia than the recognized laws of physics and mathematics.


Religion isn't much help when it comes to questions like whether one should fight for one's country. Quakers, Mennonites, and Buddhists are as certain of their spiritual truths as the Muslims, Jews, Protestants and Catholics who happily kill at the behest of their political leaders. The pope, by the way, has declared the Iraq War to be immoral, but you don't hear any demands from U.S. Catholics for priests to refuse communion to soldiers in uniform or to excommunicate politicians who fund the war, whereas there's a small but noisy group of American Catholics who are always demanding those punishments for pro-choice Catholics.

There were Christians for and against slavery in the U.S., both quoting scripture to support their moral stand. The same was true of the women's suffrage cause. Inevitably there were Christians on the winning side, since there were Christians on BOTH sides.

Opposition to the destruction of the environment has developed independently of religion, although now some religious people are rushing to say that God was an environmentalist all along. The churches haven't exactly been out in front condemning the exploitation of the poor by the very rich, in spite of Johnnie-come-lately-Ratzinger's showcasing of the "new" sins.

Is it OK with God if I work on creating deadly diseases because that's my job at the government lab and I need to earn a living? What about investing my money in corporations that are helping the government to do this? Can I invest in the corporation that's destroying old growth forests? How much effort do I have to put into investigating what corporations own the "bad" corporations so I can avoid them?

Because religious moral law has been pretty much frozen to mean "Thou shalt not screw unless married to each other," religious moral law is about as useful to modern people as a whalebone corset is to a modern woman.

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47. Comment #145244 by AdrianB on March 17, 2008 at 11:56 am

 avatar
Hitchens recalls murderous fanatics in Bosnia, Afghanistan, and the Levant, and his blood-chilling encounters with a childhood schoolmarm.

Blood-chilling encounters with a childhood schoolmarm? WTF! I mean, has he actually read the book? Or does talking shit just come naturally?

Honestly, I had to stop reading after that. I'll have a cup of tea and try again later.

.

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48. Comment #145248 by deBeuk on March 17, 2008 at 12:01 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw7J15TeDG4

D'Souza debates Daniel Dennett. After having watched that whole debate I came to the conclusion that D'Souza is a malignant little troll. This article only confirms my opinion.

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49. Comment #145251 by Mitchell Gilks on March 17, 2008 at 12:04 pm

 avatarNo one invents a reality they want to see like D'Douchebag.

He completely invents both what atheists are and believe, and are responsible for, can feel or understand. Also what christianity is, believes, are responsible for, and can understand.

The guy never makes a point, or say anything that need be responded to. He can box caricatures and straw-men all day for all I care.

I've never once seen him touch on, or criticize any positions that I hold by more than title alone, and I hold the titles loosely.

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50. Comment #145252 by Mitchell Gilks on March 17, 2008 at 12:12 pm

 avatarAs for the funeral thing, because it has been mentioned. I've told my family I want the hundred dollar cremation in the twenty dollar cardboard box. I'm dead, wtf do I care? I don't want to take up space in the ground, and I definitely don't want them spending money on me. If they want to spend a few thousand on me, do it when I'm alive.

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