1. Comment #148029 by LeeC on March 21, 2008 at 9:04 pm

No fair... I'm at work, and cannot see this.

It will have to wait...

Lee

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2. Comment #148030 by InYourFaceNewYorker on March 21, 2008 at 9:09 pm

I love the hypocrisy.

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3. Comment #148033 by sent2null on March 21, 2008 at 9:19 pm

The video mentioned straight from Harvard's site, it is awesome. The motor protein's walking gave me chills (in a completely non religious way) ;)




http://multimedia.mcb.harvard.edu/media.html

There is a version set to music (great) and a narrated version that describes the processes animated. (transcription, protein construction, motor proteins...etc.)

Edit:

For the CGI buffs among our number, the following link presents details of the creation of the animation.

http://www.studiodaily.com/main/searchlist/6850.html


Enjoy!

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4. Comment #148035 by mmurray on March 21, 2008 at 9:23 pm

Was it the first video they used ? Interesting to note that it opens saying it is for educational purposes only and any commercial use is strictly prohibited.

Michael

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5. Comment #148037 by Gymnopedie on March 21, 2008 at 9:26 pm

The more I hear about this nonsense and see the videos, the funnier the whole thing is. How freakin' absurd. The Creationists are liars and hypocrites, what a surprise!

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6. Comment #148038 by Dr Benway on March 21, 2008 at 9:27 pm

Well now things make sense. "Expelled" is rolling out in this strange manner with showings of a partially finished version to friendly crowds, because the production company hasn't secured permission to all its contents - e.g., "Bad to the Bone," the Harvard animation, and likely more.

They're probably scrambling to raise money to sort these legal matters. No wonder they're nervous.

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7. Comment #148041 by Elles on March 21, 2008 at 9:45 pm

I think that it's absolutely splendid.

I think I'm going to go outside and dance in the moonlight.

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8. Comment #148043 by mmurray on March 21, 2008 at 9:47 pm

While watching that movie I was puzzling over the scale of what I was watching. In case others are interested the mitochondria are (according to wikipedia) around 1-10 micrometres. A micrometre is one millionth of a metre or 10^{-6} metres. By comparison a carbon atom is 70 pico metres or 70 x 10^{-12} metres or about 10^{-10} m. So a mitochondria is about 10,000-100,000 atoms across or alternatively you can line up around 100-1000 of them in a millimetre.

Michael

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9. Comment #148044 by robertrwaltz on March 21, 2008 at 9:48 pm

Reminds me of those two old guys on the muppets...

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10. Comment #148045 by Bad on March 21, 2008 at 9:52 pm

I believe that someone said that the animation sequence is LIKE the version Dembski pilfered, but not the same: they may have paid to remake a lookalike version. These guys do have decently deep pockets.

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11. Comment #148046 by BicycleRepairMan on March 21, 2008 at 9:52 pm

The motor protein's walking gave me chills

According to PZ, that particular part is somewhat misleading http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/09/molecular_machines.php

I do have a couple of gripes, though. One is an understandable shortcut: the cell is far too uncluttered, and events proceed in too directed a mannerâ€"there ought to be much more stochastic noise at the molecular level. We're seeing chemistry in action, after all.

In other words, I assume the "walker" etc is actually more or less "pushed" around by chemical reactions.. in the video it moves like a large mammal or something.(But really, I'm just talking out of my ass here, I have no clue, it just seems a little far-fetched to me)

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12. Comment #148047 by Prom_STar on March 21, 2008 at 9:56 pm

Wish I'd known about this video (the Harvard one) while I was taking biology 100 last semester. And unlike the Expelled guys, sending the link to my professor would have been within the realm of fair use.

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13. Comment #148048 by MelM on March 21, 2008 at 10:09 pm

Eugenie Scott (NCSE) was looking for a way in at Danville in the San Francisco East Bay area; don't know how it turned out. NCSE is not far away. See her comment to PZ:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/a_late_night_quick_one.php#comment-796527

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14. Comment #148049 by wundergeist on March 21, 2008 at 10:09 pm

I FEAR THIS WILL WORK IN FAVOR OF THE MOVIE

No, I'm not stoned. I don't mean that people will agree with it, but they may go watch the movie to be enraged at it, to see how bad it is, with the unfortunate side effect of enriching Ben Stein et alli. Expelling P.Z. might have been a publicity maneuver. I know that my first instinct (before I caught myself) was"I have to go see this, and write a detailed blog post on all its inaccuracies, which I'm sure are many."

Obscurity and irrelevance is what they fear most. We should douse them in it: Treat them like astrologers, alchemists, and other myth-peddlers.

W

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15. Comment #148051 by sent2null on March 21, 2008 at 10:20 pm

11. Comment #148046 by BicycleRepairMan on March 21, 2008 at 9:52 pm wrote:

In other words, I assume the "walker" etc is actually more or less "pushed" around by chemical reactions.. in the video it moves like a large mammal or something.(But really, I'm just talking out of my ass here, I have no clue, it just seems a little far-fetched to me)

The second link I provided in the first post, mentioned this precise animation license taken by the creators.

http://www.studiodaily.com/main/searchlist/6850.html

Excerpt:
"The reality is that all that stuff that's going on in each cell is so tightly packed together that if we were to put every detail into every shot, you wouldn't be able to see the forest for the trees or know what you were even looking at. One of the most common things we did, then, was to strip it apart and add space where there isn't really that much space."

The Myosin motoring along is precisely that, the chemical cycle of the components do indeed mechanically activate. They may be bumping around with other cellular components while doing it , but they do indeed perform locomotion (along the bound actin filament). Here is a separate video (also from Harvard) that illustrates the myosin animation.

http://multimedia.mcb.harvard.edu/anim_myosin.html

Ultimately, the cell is a big machine, where these bio molecules are the cogs and gears, binding an unbinding as dictated by the underlying chemical affinities.

Regards,

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16. Comment #148052 by satanhimself1955 on March 21, 2008 at 10:27 pm

I'd bet that this little expulsion stunt is part of the movie's marketing campaign to get people talking and anticipating the film. Here's an earlier incident, and notice that Stein says these things will happen a lot more:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/10/business/media/10stein.html?ref=business

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17. Comment #148053 by PsyHye on March 21, 2008 at 10:32 pm

Wow this movie sounds like an utter disgrace.

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18. Comment #148055 by sent2null on March 21, 2008 at 10:41 pm

What I find most egregious about these tactics to stifle the presentation of opposing views by the religious is that it indicates on their part a lack of faith. If it is true that their position is the correct one, then there would be no need to stack the deck to "win", their truth would naturally arise. However, over and over what we see , is that reason is presented, an appeal to the empirical results is made by advocates of reason and the advocates of religion must writhe and obfuscate in order to get their "truth" disingenuously presented before the data which without coercion by science, always points away from their views when objectively analyzed.

Quite ironic considering they are the ones supposedly with divine intervention on their side.

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19. Comment #148056 by lievemebe on March 21, 2008 at 10:42 pm

This is an excerpt from the creationist site http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/5626/

"Walt Ruloff, Co-Executive Producer, says, 'The incredible thing about Expelled is that we don't resort to manipulating our interviews for the purpose of achieving the "shock effect," something that has become common in documentary film these days."


Lies, Lies, Lies, from the creationist camp. What is their ultimate game? Please tell me that human nature has hidden knowledge, unknown to present day Darwinists, but known to creationists. But why are they keeping it to themselves? Sorry for my rhetorical questions, I am utterly baffled by their rantings.

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20. Comment #148064 by Mitchell Gilks on March 22, 2008 at 12:13 am

I look foward to the full video. PZ said the same thing I was thinking when RD called them "Second rate".

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21. Comment #148066 by Steve Zara on March 22, 2008 at 12:34 am

Comment #148051 by sent2null

They may be bumping around with other cellular components while doing it , but they do indeed perform locomotion (along the bound actin filament).

Sure, but nothing like as illustrated in the film. It is misleading to the point of being factually wrong.

Ultimately, the cell is a big machine, where these bio molecules are the cogs and gears, binding an unbinding as dictated by the underlying chemical affinities.

I think that is an unhelpful image, as it suggests a "clockwork"-type interaction that simply isn't the case. The cell is mostly controlled chaos, with molecules whizzing around and bouncing off each other at phenomenal speed(*). The individual "cogs" are wobbling and twisting, the gears often "mesh" purely by chance, and sometimes wrongly.

I wish this were not the case, but the clockwork machine with cogs and gears image is positively harmful, and not just wrong, as it provided ammunition for the intelligent designers. "Look at all the machinery!" they say! I don't want to sound hypocritical, as I have said we should investigate certain matters even if they "give comfort" to creationists, but in this case the animation is so misleading that I would really be prepared to call it wrong.

(*) I have heard that if you scale a cell up so that a protein molecule was the size of small car, it would be moving around at several times the speed of light!

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22. Comment #148072 by madame_zora on March 22, 2008 at 12:57 am

I agree with wundergeist that we should treat this film with indifference, I sure won't waste my money on it. Now, if it gets posted online for free, then I'll see what the scuffle is about. They're simply trying still to promote the idea that there is a legitimate public debate going on when there isn't, and they're using the Marilyn Manson approach of advertising. If you create enough controversy about yourself, you don't have to spend any money at all on advertising. Let's not be so cheap.

edit- I'm really looking forward to the full 90 min. discussion.

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23. Comment #148074 by DamnDirtyApe on March 22, 2008 at 1:02 am

I have to disagree with wundergeist the moment I heard the hilarious 'oh' in the video I knew there was a very specific group of people who need to know about this movie.

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24. Comment #148078 by Logicel on March 22, 2008 at 1:25 am

Nice clip. Loved Dawkins saying, He (the director) was doing Lord Privy Seals all over the place.

and

Goodness knows, they must be insecure.

Regarding all publicity is good publicity (in the sense that it will drive film revenues), I consider that to be an insignificant plus for the side of these IDiots compared to the willfully shooting of themselves in their feet debacle they now have on their hands.

Perhaps the American IDiots have been so lulled by the last twenty years or so of the predominance of the so-called Moral Majority, that they have no idea what they are up against with the viral negative publicity made possible rather recently by the Web.

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25. Comment #148080 by darlets on March 22, 2008 at 1:43 am

can Harvard sue these guys already!!!

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26. Comment #148087 by Vadjong on March 22, 2008 at 2:33 am

It's not that they shot themselves in the foot. It looks more like a suicide bomb attempt that apparently is all the fashion among certain relinutters.
[made up quote]"See ! See ! Big Science is crushing the poor little god loving guys. What brave martyrs they are !"[/made up quote]

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27. Comment #148090 by kintaro_crab on March 22, 2008 at 2:49 am

Oh my, I can just imagine the hypocrisy that would probably ensue if Harvard were to decide to sue the creators of Expelled.

"Headline: Big Science Tries to Sue Creators of Expelled!

Ben Stein staring in 'Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed', while questioned on the matter was quoted as saying "Those big meanies, they won't let us use their film illegally. Waa! Waa! We thought we had changed it enough from the original, by dubbing over all the audio with creationist propaganda. Darwinists blah blah, Devil worshipers blah blah, Nazi Germany blah blah, Holocaust blah blah."

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28. Comment #148091 by Richard Morgan on March 22, 2008 at 2:56 am

I still find this quite hilarious!
And I do think that laughter is one of our greatest weapons in combating all that is bad in religion.


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29. Comment #148094 by Dr Nev on March 22, 2008 at 3:41 am

I'm still laughing! Infact I better watch myself as I have Bipolar and I may get myself into a manic state from laughing so much!!

Wonderful to hear this discussion from RD and PZ Myers.

I have a grin on my face the size of the curviture of the Earth!

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30. Comment #148095 by Vadjong on March 22, 2008 at 3:42 am

And I do think that laughter is one of our greatest weapons in combating all that is bad in religion.

Indeed. It is in the false notion of automatic RESPECT that faithheads feel the pain.
However, by some reflex doublethink they twist it into virtue, so they can feel like an apostle who is forced to deny Jesus three times before the cock crows, but in his heart still truly, madly, deeply .... .
It's the test that makes you a saint. It's the hardest spell to break.

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31. Comment #148097 by Jiten on March 22, 2008 at 3:49 am

Thanks for the Harvard video link sent2null!

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32. Comment #148100 by scooternyc on March 22, 2008 at 4:07 am

"Breathtaking Inanity"

Once again the religious, who scream freedoms of our Constitution, are silencing the voices of others and deeming themselves the deity over all to decide who should or should not see, hear, comment on something.

A very disturbed group of people they have proven themselves to be once again.

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33. Comment #148101 by Matt7895 on March 22, 2008 at 4:20 am

Oh man! This is 'Discussions with Richard Dawkins' Episode Two? If so, what a cracking episode to follow the Four Horsemen! PZ is a great guy.

Thanks RDF.

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34. Comment #148102 by Russell Blackford on March 22, 2008 at 4:25 am

My comments, a bit belated, over here:

http://metamagician3000.blogspot.com/2008/03/myers-expelled-from-expelled.html

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35. Comment #148103 by invalescopop on March 22, 2008 at 4:30 am

I'm glad there has been an official response to this story now, if only to silence the Christian bloggers claiming PZ was causing a scene and was asked to leave accordingly.

I loved that the blogger referred to in this film had the audacity to print (as highlightable text, a "spoiler" by his account) that the film's premise was: evolution leads to atheism leads to eugenics leads to holocaust and Nazi Germany.

Naturally PZ was removed from the theatre to prevent a holocaust.

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36. Comment #148106 by geehigh on March 22, 2008 at 5:10 am

I wonder if PZ got his admission fee back?

I also wonder if any of us will be debarred from parting with our cash when this 'thing' becomes available for hire or purchase on DVD?

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37. Comment #148109 by Barn Owl on March 22, 2008 at 5:27 am

LOL at the Lord Privy Seal comparison from Dawkins.

Sounds as if the film is totally boring and dishonest, and quite possibly an inadvertant mockumentary.

What really makes me chuckle (OK, snark, rather), is that the Cdesign proponentsists are overlooking, or perhaps completely ignorant of, their true "enemies", i.e. those scientists who do research and publish papers in evolutionary biology on a regular basis. Take a look at an issue of any major peer-reviewed journal-Science, Nature, Cell, Development- and there will be several papers that address evolutionary biology questions.

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38. Comment #148115 by Lionel A on March 22, 2008 at 5:51 am

I note that Bent Steam has a claim to be a comedian. Well this episode certainly has a Pythonesque overtone.

Like most commentators I had trouble controlling my mirth at this 'Cartoon Caper' involving PZ and Richard.

Is there a danger of giving this more of the free publicity that the sponsor evidently wishes for given his reported comment on that NY Times article

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/10/business/media/10stein.html?_r=2&ref=business&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

reporting on Roger Moore's experience?

Maybe there is that possibility but to whom will it be dangerous? Personally I think that the increased coverage of these actions taken to expel PZ will cause those actions to be a boomerang that will scythe through the poor fabric that is the ID lobby's raiment and exposing the emperor for what he is.

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39. Comment #148119 by Ian H Spedding FCD on March 22, 2008 at 6:17 am

I seem to remember the Lord Privy Seal gag in a sketch from show like Not The Nine O'Clock News. They had a typical BBC newsreader doing a piece to camera illustrated by silly film clips. When he/she said "Lord Privy Seal" there was a quickfire sequence of a lord, an outside toilet and a seal

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40. Comment #148120 by chuckgoecke on March 22, 2008 at 6:22 am

As PZ and Richard discussed, I highly recommend that everybody register for these showings/previews, show up and protest, complain, etc. but in very nice and polite ways. Additionally, we should, when this piece of offal hits the theaters, protest outside, at least until we all are "Expelled". I personally would love to be "Expelled" from this fecal shitstorm.

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41. Comment #148122 by Jack Rawlinson on March 22, 2008 at 6:33 am

Ian: I remember the very wonderful "The Day Today" running a sketch like that. If I find it on YouTube I'll link it.

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42. Comment #148126 by Thadd on March 22, 2008 at 6:43 am

I would love to go see this, does anyone have a link. I doubt they would expel me, thought it would be interesting, because I am an actual biblical scholar and not a biologist.

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43. Comment #148129 by steve8282 on March 22, 2008 at 6:51 am

when a torrent becomes available could we be directed?


I refuse to spend a dime to see this thing.

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44. Comment #148139 by Barn Owl on March 22, 2008 at 7:11 am

I refuse to Win Ben Stein More Money by going to see this piece of film-poo.

Would love to see the "Lord Privy Seal" sketch, though!

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45. Comment #148141 by tgibbs on March 22, 2008 at 7:19 am

I love the Harvard video, but my major complaint is that it obscures the stochastic nature of cellular physiology. Kinesin does indeed walk along the microtubule, but not in the regular, robotic manner depicted. It is a much more halting affair. Worse, microtubules are shown assembling by "attracting" monomers, which home in on the tip of the growing tubule, when the reality is that the monomers are constantly whizzing around and randomly bumping into the end of the growing tubule, such that the rate of association exceeds the rate of dissociation.

They pretty much had to do this to make things comprehensible--a realistic depiction would have the viewer inside a blizzard of monomers (and other cellular components) jiggling randomly around, and you wouldn't be able to see anything.

The problem from the standpoint of ID/creationism is that it obscures the way in which random (but energetically biased) brownian motion on a small scale results in apparently directed action on a larger scale. This is a central point of popular confusion that has been widely exploited by ID/creationists--many people simply don't understand how an ordered progression can result from random events (e.g. mutation, drift) when they are biased by selection.

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46. Comment #148147 by Ed-words on March 22, 2008 at 7:32 am

Moving from Minnesota to the Univ. Of Texas

at Austin, Dawkins appearance there Wed.

night was said to be a GREAT success.

The Atheist Longhorn web site has a good

blogger description of it all.

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47. Comment #148148 by sheepscarer on March 22, 2008 at 7:35 am

Sent2null's comments about the 'lack of faith' in their own faith are spot on. It's this compartmentalisation of the thinking process that I find so difficult to understand. It seems that their all-seeing and all-knowing superbeings need a little sleight of mind when confonted with uncomfortable truths.

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48. Comment #148150 by Tack on March 22, 2008 at 7:42 am

The idea of protesting outside theaters previewing Expelled smacks way too much of Christian fundamentalism. These people are laughed at, and rightly so. (Kevin Smith in 'An Evening With Kevin Smith' recounts his terribly amusing experience while going under-cover pretending to be a fellow fundamentalist picketer at his own film Dogma.)

Please, let's not become them. We are above that.

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49. Comment #148154 by ungeziefer on March 22, 2008 at 7:47 am

And an extra dose of irony on top:

(From the movie's blog page.)

Clowns.

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50. Comment #148155 by clunkclickeverytrip on March 22, 2008 at 7:48 am

Thanks sent2null, for the link to Harvard's Myosin animation. I did my Ph.D. on non-muscle tropomyosin almost 20 years ago so was familiar with actin/myosin systems at the time. I'm no longer in research so haven't been following developments - it's great to see the increased understanding at the molecular level of the myosin families. Excellent educational tool from Harvard.

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