










The science of religion: Where angels no longer fear to tread2. Comment #148489 by phasmagigas on March 23, 2008 at 7:48 am
much as a sceptic cannot benefit from the placebo effect of homeopathy
3. Comment #148492 by IanG on March 23, 2008 at 7:54 am
Oh dear. Another attempt to sneak group selection in.Yes, That thought occurred to me too!
4. Comment #148501 by Bonzai on March 23, 2008 at 8:11 am
Oh dear. Another attempt to sneak group selection in. Someone needs to re-read The Extended Phenotype.
5. Comment #148505 by Steve Zara on March 23, 2008 at 8:18 am
I don't think he was trying to sneak in anything, he was quite upfront that group selection was not mainstream. However, I find that very dogmatic to think the Dawkins had spoken the last word on the topic and dismiss the whole idea that way. In science there shouldn't be any taboo,
6. Comment #148507 by jshuey on March 23, 2008 at 8:18 am
7. Comment #148510 by Bonzai on March 23, 2008 at 8:25 am
I think it is clearly wrong to say that behaviour that promotes the group over the individual is the opposite of Darwinism as conventionally understood
8. Comment #148512 by Steve Zara on March 23, 2008 at 8:28 am
It may not be opposite, but I find convetional Darwinism has nothing to offer at this level other than providing ad hoc stories of plausibility, evolutionary psychology is like making up stories as one gets along.
9. Comment #148513 by Bonzai on March 23, 2008 at 8:32 am
How does altruism in kin groups translate to non kin groups? Members of kin groups have common genes but not in larger groups. Dawkins says it is a "mis-fire". It may turn out to be the only explanation, but it is not the kind of explanation which is so compelling that it would close off other alternative approaches once and for all.10. Comment #148515 by RobDinsmore on March 23, 2008 at 8:37 am
11. Comment #148518 by Steve Zara on March 23, 2008 at 8:41 am
How does altruism in kin groups translate to non kin groups? Members of kin groups have common genes but not in larger groups. Dawkins says it is a "mis-fire". It may turn out to be the only explanation, but it is not the kind of explanation which is so compelling that it would close off other alternative approaches once and for all.
12. Comment #148521 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on March 23, 2008 at 8:47 am
I like the way Chomsky defines religion"As for religion being "a part of every observable society," if what is meant is that every society we know has sought to find some explanation for matters of deep human concern that we do not begin to understand (death, the origins of the universe, etc.), that's doubtless true. If one wants to call the constructs developed "religion," OK. I don't see what that implies, apart from the fact -- I presume it is a fact -- that people seek answers to hard questions, and where understanding reaches limits (very quickly, in most areas), they speculate, construct myths, etc. To draw conclusions about "human nature" from historical constructs of dominant societies in the past few thousand years seems to me quite a stretch."
- Noam Chomsky
13. Comment #148522 by IanG on March 23, 2008 at 8:48 am
Steve,14. Comment #148526 by Steve Zara on March 23, 2008 at 8:56 am
So is it your view that the hypothesis of Group Selection playing a part in evolution is indeed fallacious and has been unambiguously refuted?
15. Comment #148527 by Dr Benway on March 23, 2008 at 8:59 am
16. Comment #148530 by IanG on March 23, 2008 at 9:05 am
Steve,17. Comment #148533 by Steve Zara on March 23, 2008 at 9:08 am
So it's Occam's Razor with "selfish genes" providing the simplest and most accurate description of the largest amount of observable data and predicting future observations accurately?
Is this like MMR where virtually every knowledgeable person on the planet dismissed this idea, and one or two people sold their bugbear to an uninformed population, or is the current cream of evolutionary academe significantly split on the issue of group selection.
18. Comment #148543 by Pattern Seeker on March 23, 2008 at 9:20 am
20. Comment #148550 by Peacebeuponme on March 23, 2008 at 9:30 am
Steve, Dr Benway, IanG - As usual I get here, read an article and see any thoughts I had (and more) already set out and discussed! Cheers.21. Comment #148558 by jayalenik on March 23, 2008 at 9:47 am
22. Comment #148559 by Steve Zara on March 23, 2008 at 9:49 am
Maybe religious males are showing potential females that they flourish even with the yolk of stupidity around their necks.
23. Comment #148560 by beelzebub on March 23, 2008 at 9:51 am
24. Comment #148562 by IanG on March 23, 2008 at 9:55 am
Comment #148527 by Dr BenwayIf there is a more general principle of information replication at work, with genes being merely one example of a more general "unit of replication," you might be able to get group selection to work.Dr. Benway, thanks for that reminder of a fundamental question for any aspiring alternative hypothesis to address!
25. Comment #148564 by jayalenik on March 23, 2008 at 9:58 am
26. Comment #148568 by IanG on March 23, 2008 at 10:08 am
Clearly God exists because the Afterlife exists and the evidence is provided by the fact that Tommy Cooper has been reincarnated in at least one person on this thread.27. Comment #148569 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on March 23, 2008 at 10:08 am
Check out Price Equation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_equation28. Comment #148570 by Steve Zara on March 23, 2008 at 10:08 am
Is this not 'Group Selection'? Those groups of individuals that co-operate best, survive? This seems obvious to me, so why is it so dismissed?
Am I being a bit naive here? :-)
29. Comment #148574 by Stafford Gordon on March 23, 2008 at 10:25 am
In COMMENT 1 by Steve Zara sights THE EXTENDED PHENOTYPE.30. Comment #148581 by beelzebub on March 23, 2008 at 10:41 am
31. Comment #148583 by alexmzk on March 23, 2008 at 10:47 am
i'd guess that religion arose in primitive societies as a way to explain stuff (eg. Greek Polytheism), combined with a way to create a tribal identity (eg. El vs. Yahweh).32. Comment #148610 by Double Bass Atheist on March 23, 2008 at 11:57 am
33. Comment #148622 by 42nd on March 23, 2008 at 12:25 pm
How does altruism in kin groups translate to non kin groups? Members of kin groups have common genes but not in larger groups. Dawkins says it is a "mis-fire". It may turn out to be the only explanation, but it is not the kind of explanation which is so compelling that it would close off other alternative approaches once and for all.
34. Comment #148628 by Dr Benway on March 23, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Genes that produced purely selfish behaviour would stand less chance of survival.Remember that "selfish" is a technical term, meaning "behaves in a way that furthers its own replication at the expense of competing replicators."
35. Comment #148630 by Steve Zara on March 23, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Or does the term "Group Selection" have a different, technical, meaning?
36. Comment #148635 by JemyM on March 23, 2008 at 1:05 pm
37. Comment #148638 by jayalenik on March 23, 2008 at 1:36 pm
38. Comment #148643 by Bonzai on March 23, 2008 at 1:49 pm
It's called game theory. Check prisoner's dilemma for more details of this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma
So yeah, basically if it takes 10 people to kill a mammoth (and nothing smaller is available for hunting) , then they need to work together even if they don't really give a damn about each other.
39. Comment #148646 by Dr Benway on March 23, 2008 at 2:06 pm
So that enhance the chance of survival of the group v.s other groups where members don't cooperate. Maybe I am naive like beelzebub, but that sounds like group selection to me.Individuals carrying genes which promote cooperation will out-compete individuals carrying genes that can't cooperate. Natural selection is acting upon the gene, not the group. The gene remains the replicator, not the group.
40. Comment #148647 by 42nd on March 23, 2008 at 2:06 pm
If it is "rational" thing,--albeit in an unconscious level,--how does it fit in with Dawkins' theory of "selfish genes misfiring"?
So that enhance the chance of survival of the group v.s other groups where members don't cooperate. Maybe I am naive like beelzebub, but that sounds like group selection to me.
41. Comment #148648 by Steve Zara on March 23, 2008 at 2:10 pm
If it is "rational" thing,--albeit in an unconscious level,--how does it fit in with Dawkins' theory of "selfish genes misfiring"?
42. Comment #148649 by Bonzai on March 23, 2008 at 2:13 pm
yeah, but how is it a "misfire"?43. Comment #148652 by Steve Zara on March 23, 2008 at 2:18 pm
yeah, but how is it a "misfire"?
44. Comment #148654 by Mark Smith on March 23, 2008 at 2:28 pm
how is it a "misfire"?
45. Comment #148661 by Bonzai on March 23, 2008 at 2:38 pm
42ndNot exactly, because your goal is still your own survival and no one else's (at least at genetic and unconscious level), you only drag others because you have to. In prisoner's dilemma, each prisoner is trying to get his own arse out of trouble, not caring about the other one, but they still end up cooperating.
46. Comment #148769 by mark85 on March 23, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Nice to see an article on the "Science of Religion" rather than the "Religion of Science" for a change.47. Comment #148777 by Spinoza on March 23, 2008 at 10:45 pm
And why stop at genes?. The late physicist Heinz Pagels wrote in his book "the dream of reason" that Dawkins had it all wrong, the genes were themselves only the play things of DNAs, I don't remember how the argument went, but will look it up when I have a chance.
48. Comment #148798 by the_ultimate_samurai on March 24, 2008 at 12:22 am
i dont think the idea for group selection isnt apt here, because in this case you would be looking at group evolution, the evolution of societies (memetic evolution, not genetic) so a society that DOESNT survive well or isnt fit, will naturaly fall, religion does play a part in keeping the SOCIETY as a whole together. by this means the fitness isnt on the people but the society, while the people themselves (who are the vehicles for this meme) benefit by having the society survive. even if THEY die to continue this society, they usualy do it for their children and family.49. Comment #148822 by gcdavis on March 24, 2008 at 2:26 am
50. Comment #148878 by quill on March 24, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Similarly, signs of religious commitment that are hard to fake provide a costly and reliable signal to others in a group that anyone engaging in them is committed to that group. Free-riders, in other words, would not be able to gain the advantages of group membership. [...] Religion might have emerged as a way of improving group co-operation while reducing the need to keep an eye out for free-riders.I assume we're talking about "free riders" other than priests, haha.
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1. Comment #148484 by Steve Zara on March 23, 2008 at 7:32 am
Oh dear. Another attempt to sneak group selection in. Someone needs to re-read The Extended Phenotype.
Other Comments by Steve Zara