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Wednesday, March 19, 2008 | Reason : Science of Religion | print version Print | Comments

Document The science of religion: Where angels no longer fear to tread

by The Economist

Science and religion have often been at loggerheads. Now the former has decided to resolve the problem by trying to explain the existence of the latter

The Economist

BY THE standards of European scientific collaboration, €2m ($3.1m) is not a huge sum. But it might be the start of something that will challenge human perceptions of reality at least as much as the billions being spent by the European particle-physics laboratory (CERN) at Geneva. The first task of CERN's new machine, the Large Hadron Collider, which is due to open later this year, will be to search for the Higgs boson—an object that has been dubbed, with a certain amount of hyperbole, the God particle. The €2m, by contrast, will be spent on the search for God Himself—or, rather, for the biological reasons why so many people believe in God, gods and religion in general.

"Explaining Religion", as the project is known, is the largest-ever scientific study of the subject. It began last September, will run for three years, and involves scholars from 14 universities and a range of disciplines from psychology to economics. And it is merely the latest manifestation of a growing tendency for science to poke its nose into the God business.

Religion cries out for a biological explanation. It is a ubiquitous phenomenon—arguably one of the species markers of Homo sapiens—but a puzzling one. It has none of the obvious benefits of that other marker of humanity, language. Nevertheless, it consumes huge amounts of resources. Moreover, unlike language, it is the subject of violent disagreements. Science has, however, made significant progress in understanding the biology of language, from where it is processed in the brain to exactly how it communicates meaning. Time, therefore, to put religion under the microscope as well.

I have no need of that hypothesis

Explaining Religion is an ambitious attempt to do this. The experiments it will sponsor are designed to look at the mental mechanisms needed to represent an omniscient deity, whether (and how) belief in such a "surveillance-camera" God might improve reproductive success to an individual's Darwinian advantage, and whether religion enhances a person's reputation—for instance, do people think that those who believe in God are more trustworthy than those who do not? The researchers will also seek to establish whether different religions foster different levels of co-operation, for what reasons, and whether such co-operation brings collective benefits, both to the religious community and to those outside it.

It is an ambitious shopping list. Fortunately, other researchers have blazed a trail. Patrick McNamara, for example, is the head of the Evolutionary Neurobehaviour Laboratory at Boston University's School of Medicine. He works with people who suffer from Parkinson's disease. This illness is caused by low levels of a messenger molecule called dopamine in certain parts of the brain. In a preliminary study, Dr McNamara discovered that those with Parkinson's had lower levels of religiosity than healthy individuals, and that the difference seemed to correlate with the disease's severity. He therefore suspects a link with dopamine levels and is now conducting a follow-up involving some patients who are taking dopamine-boosting medicine and some of whom are not.

Such neurochemical work, though preliminary, may tie in with scanning studies conducted to try to find out which parts of the brain are involved in religious experience. Nina Azari, a neuroscientist at the University of Hawaii at Hilo who also has a doctorate in theology, has looked at the brains of religious people. She used positron emission tomography (PET) to measure brain activity in six fundamentalist Christians and six non-religious (though not atheist) controls. The Christians all said that reciting the first verse of the 23rd psalm helped them enter a religious state of mind, so both groups were scanned in six different sets of circumstances: while reading the first verse of the 23rd psalm, while reciting it out loud, while reading a happy story (a well-known German children's rhyme), while reciting that story out loud, while reading a neutral text (how to use a calling card) and while at rest.

Dr Azari was expecting to see activity in the limbic systems of the Christians when they recited the psalm. Previous research had suggested that this part of the brain (which regulates emotion) is an important centre of religious activity. In fact what happened was increased activity in three areas of the frontal and parietal cortex, some of which are better known for their involvement in rational thought. The control group did not show activity in these parts of their brains when listening to the psalm. And, intriguingly, the only thing that triggered limbic activity in either group was reading the happy story.

Dr Azari's PET study, together with one by Andrew Newberg of the University of Pennsylvania, which used single-photon emission computed tomography done on Buddhist monks, and another by Mario Beauregard of the University of Montreal, which put Carmelite nuns in a magnetic-resonance-imaging machine, all suggest that religious activity is spread across many parts of the brain. That conflicts not only with the limbic-system theory but also with earlier reports of a so-called God Spot that derived partly from work conducted on epileptics. These reports suggested that religiosity originates specifically in the brain's temporal lobe, and that religious visions are the result of epileptic seizures that affect this part of the brain.

Though there is clearly still a long way to go, this sort of imaging should eventually tie down the circuitry of religious experience and that, combined with work on messenger molecules of the sort that Dr McNamara is doing, will illuminate how the brain generates and processes religious experiences. Dr Azari, however, is sceptical that such work will say much about religion's evolution and function. For this, other methods are needed.

Dr McNamara, for example, plans to analyse a database called the Ethnographic Atlas to see if he can find any correlations between the amount of cultural co-operation found in a society and the intensity of its religious rituals. And Richard Sosis, an anthropologist at the University of Connecticut, has already done some research which suggests that the long-term co-operative benefits of religion outweigh the short-term costs it imposes in the form of praying many times a day, avoiding certain foods, fasting and so on.

Leviticus's children

On the face of things, it is puzzling that such costly behaviour should persist. Some scholars, however, draw an analogy with sexual selection. The splendour of a peacock's tail and the throaty roar of a stag really do show which males are fittest, and thus help females choose. Similarly, signs of religious commitment that are hard to fake provide a costly and reliable signal to others in a group that anyone engaging in them is committed to that group. Free-riders, in other words, would not be able to gain the advantages of group membership.

To test whether religion might have emerged as a way of improving group co-operation while reducing the need to keep an eye out for free-riders, Dr Sosis drew on a catalogue of 19th-century American communes published in 1988 by Yaacov Oved of Tel Aviv University. Dr Sosis picked 200 of these for his analysis; 88 were religious and 112 were secular. Dr Oved's data include the span of each commune's existence and Dr Sosis found that communes whose ideology was secular were up to four times as likely as religious ones to dissolve in any given year.

A follow-up study that Dr Sosis conducted in collaboration with Eric Bressler of McMaster University in Canada focused on 83 of these communes (30 religious, 53 secular) to see if the amount of time they survived correlated with the strictures and expectations they imposed on the behaviour of their members. The two researchers examined things like food consumption, attitudes to material possessions, rules about communication, rituals and taboos, and rules about marriage and sexual relationships.

As they expected, they found that the more constraints a religious commune placed on its members, the longer it lasted (one is still going, at the grand old age of 149). But the same did not hold true of secular communes, where the oldest was 40. Dr Sosis therefore concludes that ritual constraints are not by themselves enough to sustain co-operation in a community—what is needed in addition is a belief that those constraints are sanctified.

Dr Sosis has also studied modern secular and religious kibbutzim in Israel. Because a kibbutz, by its nature, depends on group co-operation, the principal difference between the two is the use of religious ritual. Within religious communities, men are expected to pray three times daily in groups of at least ten, while women are not. It should, therefore, be possible to observe whether group rituals do improve co-operation, based on the behaviour of men and women.

To do so, Dr Sosis teamed up with Bradley Ruffle, an economist at Ben-Gurion University, in Israel. They devised a game to be played by two members of a kibbutz. This was a variant of what is known to economists as the common-pool-resource dilemma, which involves two people trying to divide a pot of money without knowing how much the other is asking for. In the version of the game devised by Dr Sosis and Dr Ruffle, each participant was told that there was an envelope with 100 shekels in it (between 1/6th and 1/8th of normal monthly income). Both players could request money from the envelope, but if the sum of their requests exceeded its contents, neither got any cash. If, however, their request equalled, or was less than, the 100 shekels, not only did they keep the money, but the amount left was increased by 50% and split between them.

Dr Sosis and Dr Ruffle picked the common-pool-resource dilemma because the communal lives of kibbutz members mean they often face similar dilemmas over things such as communal food, power and cars. The researchers' hypothesis was that in religious kibbutzim men would be better collaborators (and thus would take less) than women, while in secular kibbutzim men and women would take about the same. And that was exactly what happened.

Big father is watching you

Dr Sosis is not the only researcher to employ economic games to investigate the nature and possible advantages of religion. Ara Norenzayan, an experimental psychologist at the University of British Columbia, in Vancouver, has conducted experiments using what is known as the dictator game. This, too, is a well-established test used to gauge altruistic behaviour. Participants receive a sum of money—Dr Norenzayan set it at $10—and are asked if they would like to share it with another player. The dictator game thus differs from another familiar economic game in which one person divides the money and the other decides whether to accept or reject that division.

As might be expected, in the simple version of the dictator game most people take most or all of the money. However, Dr Norenzayan and his graduate student Azim Shariff tried to tweak the game by introducing the idea of God. They did this by priming half of their volunteers to think about religion by getting them to unscramble sentences containing religious words such as God, spirit, divine, sacred and prophet. Those thus primed left an average of $4.22, while the unprimed left $1.84.

Exactly what Dr Norenzayan has discovered here is not clear. A follow-up experiment which primed people with secular words that might, nevertheless, have prompted them to behave in an altruistic manner (civic, jury, court, police and contract) had similar effects, so it may be that he has touched on a general question of morality, rather than a specific one of religion. However, an experiment carried out by Jesse Bering, of Queen's University in Belfast, showed quite specifically that the perceived presence of a supernatural being can affect a person's behaviour—although in this case the being was not God, but the ghost of a dead person.

Dr Bering, too, likes the hypothesis that religion promotes fitness by promoting collaboration within groups. One way that might work would be to rely not just on other individuals to detect cheats by noticing things like slacking on the prayers or eating during fasts, but for cheats to detect and police themselves as well. In that case a sense of being watched by a supernatural being might be useful. Dr Bering thus proposes that belief in such beings would prevent what he called "dangerous risk miscalculations" that would lead to social deviance and reduced fitness.

One of the experiments he did to test this idea was to subject a bunch of undergraduates to a quiz. His volunteers were told that the best performer among them would receive a $50 prize. They were also told that the computer program that presented the questions had a bug in it, which sometimes caused the answer to appear on the screen before the question. The volunteers were therefore instructed to hit the space bar immediately if the word "Answer" appeared on the screen. That would remove the answer and ensure the test results were fair.

The volunteers were then divided into three groups. Two began by reading a note dedicating the test to a recently deceased graduate student. One did not see the note. Of the two groups shown the note, one was told by the experimenter that the student's ghost had sometimes been seen in the room. The other group was not given this suggestion.

The so-called glitch occurred five times for each student. Dr Bering measured the amount of time it took to press the space bar on each occasion. He discarded the first result as likely to be unreliable and then averaged the other four. He found that those who had been told the ghost story were much quicker to press the space bar than those who had not. They did so in an average of 4.3 seconds. That compared with 6.3 seconds for those who had only read the note about the student's death and 7.2 for those who had not heard any of the story concerning the dead student. In short, awareness of a ghost—a supernatural agent—made people less likely to cheat.

Who is my neighbour?

It all sounds very Darwinian. But there is a catch. The American communes, the kibbutzim, the students of the University of British Columbia and even the supernatural self-censorship observed by Dr Bering all seem to involve behaviour that promotes the group over the individual. That is the opposite of Darwinism as conventionally understood. But it might be explained by an idea that most Darwinians dropped in the 1960s—group selection.

The idea that evolution can work by the differential survival of entire groups of organisms, rather than just of individuals, was rejected because it is mathematically implausible. But it has been revived recently, in particular by David Sloan Wilson of Binghamton University, in New York, as a way of explaining the evolution of human morality in the context of inter-tribal warfare. Such warfare can be so murderous that groups whose members fail to collaborate in an individually self-sacrificial way may be wiped out entirely. This negates the benefits of selfish behaviour within a group. Morality and religion are often closely connected, of course (as Dr Norenzayan's work confirms), so what holds for the one might be expected to hold for the other, too.

Dr Wilson himself has studied the relationship between social insecurity and religious fervour, and discovered that, regardless of the religion in question, it is the least secure societies that tend to be most fundamentalist. That would make sense if adherence to the rules is a condition for the security which comes from membership of a group. He is also interested in what some religions hold out as the ultimate reward for good behaviour—life after death. That can promote any amount of self-sacrifice in a believer, up to and including suicidal behaviour—as recent events in the Islamic world have emphasised. However, belief in an afterlife is not equally well developed in all religions, and he suspects the differences may be illuminating.

That does not mean there are no explanations for religion that are based on individual selection. For example, Jason Slone, a professor of religious studies at Webster University in St Louis, argues that people who are religious will be seen as more likely to be faithful and to help in parenting than those who are not. That makes them desirable as mates. He plans to conduct experiments designed to find out whether this is so. And, slightly tongue in cheek, Dr Wilson quips that "secularism is very maladaptive biologically. We're the ones who at best are having only two kids. Religious people are the ones who aren't smoking and drinking, and are living longer and having the health benefits."

That quip, though, makes an intriguing point. Evolutionary biologists tend to be atheists, and most would be surprised if the scientific investigation of religion did not end up supporting their point of view. But if a propensity to religious behaviour really is an evolved trait, then they have talked themselves into a position where they cannot benefit from it, much as a sceptic cannot benefit from the placebo effect of homeopathy. Maybe, therefore, it is God who will have the last laugh after all—whether He actually exists or not.

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1. Comment #148484 by Steve Zara on March 23, 2008 at 7:32 am

 avatar
It all sounds very Darwinian. But there is a catch. The American communes, the kibbutzim, the students of the University of British Columbia and even the supernatural self-censorship observed by Dr Bering all seem to involve behaviour that promotes the group over the individual. That is the opposite of Darwinism as conventionally understood. But it might be explained by an idea that most Darwinians dropped in the 1960sâ€"group selection.

The idea that evolution can work by the differential survival of entire groups of organisms, rather than just of individuals, was rejected because it is mathematically implausible.


Oh dear. Another attempt to sneak group selection in. Someone needs to re-read The Extended Phenotype.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2. Comment #148489 by phasmagigas on March 23, 2008 at 7:48 am

 avatar
much as a sceptic cannot benefit from the placebo effect of homeopathy


people who take homeopathic stuff can be the type of people who like to take 'something' for everyting, they like things in bottles, things they can touch and buy, they probably also read those 'love yourself' books and benefit from those.

im not sure the skeptic not benefiting from the placebo effect is a bad thing!!

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3. Comment #148492 by IanG on March 23, 2008 at 7:54 am

Oh dear. Another attempt to sneak group selection in.
Yes, That thought occurred to me too!

However, I think there are some positives to take.

Firstly, it's up to those who still think there may be a way in which group selection may be a factor to prove their case. Is the current refutation specifically that it is mathematically unrepresentable? Or, more relevantly, mathematically demonstrated to be fallacious?

Or, more simply, has there been a convincing refutation, full-stop?

If so, is this conclusive or is there any possibility that continuing to look at the matter is still worthwhile? I wouldn't waste time on the idea of an Earth-centred universe; is group selection in the same class?

Secondly, the fact that this article appears seems positive.

This piece is the sole occupant of the Science and Technology slot in this week's The Economist. Usually there are a number of topics.

It necessarily only scratches the surface but it touches on some provocative issues.

Its publication seems to me to be another encouraging indication that interest in this area is arousing progressively greater interest, rather than being seen as un-newsworthy or insensitive.

As a proportion of what churches spend on supporting religion, I guess 2 million Euros is a fractional figure that is insignificantly different from zero, but it's a start!

It also lays the lie that scientists are closed minded and not prepared to investigate religious claims seriously.

It's also perhaps a bit of an antidote to the "Expelled" farce.

Other Comments by IanG

4. Comment #148501 by Bonzai on March 23, 2008 at 8:11 am

Oh dear. Another attempt to sneak group selection in. Someone needs to re-read The Extended Phenotype.


I don't think he was trying to sneak in anything, he was quite upfront that group selection was not mainstream. However, I find that very dogmatic to think the Dawkins had spoken the last word on the topic and dismiss the whole idea that way.

In science there shouldn't be any taboo, especially in an area such as the evolutionary role of religion, which standard evolutionary theory does not apply directly. Anything that invoke evolution at the social level necessarily would involve a lot of extrapolations

The idea that there is group selection at the social level is not any more crackpotish than Dawkins' idea of memes, which is taken as gospel truth by many here,

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5. Comment #148505 by Steve Zara on March 23, 2008 at 8:18 am

 avatarComment #148501 by Bonzai
I don't think he was trying to sneak in anything, he was quite upfront that group selection was not mainstream. However, I find that very dogmatic to think the Dawkins had spoken the last word on the topic and dismiss the whole idea that way. In science there shouldn't be any taboo,


I think it is clearly wrong to say that behaviour that promotes the group over the individual is the opposite of Darwinism as conventionally understood. That is simply factually incorrect. It is a straw man often set up to allow fuzzy group selection ideas to be discussed without too much emarassment. We also know that Sloane Wilson has (to put it politely) made factual mistakes in representing Dawkins' views.

This isn't about dogmatism. It isn't about slavishly following what Dawkins says. It is about getting things right.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

6. Comment #148507 by jshuey on March 23, 2008 at 8:18 am

 avatarI guess I'm not much of a scientific thinker, but can someone explain how PET scans showing activity in several areas of the brain during meditation or other religious exercises rules out the possibility that proper stimulation of the temporal lobe, whether from epilipsy or an artificial jolt of electricity, is a likely cause of religious (or other) visions or vision-like experiences.

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7. Comment #148510 by Bonzai on March 23, 2008 at 8:25 am

I think it is clearly wrong to say that behaviour that promotes the group over the individual is the opposite of Darwinism as conventionally understood


It may not be opposite, but I find convetional Darwinism has nothing to offer at this level other than providing ad hoc stories of plausibility, evolutionary psychology is like making up stories as one gets along. Sloan Wilson might very well be wrong, but I don't think anyone gets it right either, and certainly not Dawkins and his mematics.

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8. Comment #148512 by Steve Zara on March 23, 2008 at 8:28 am

 avatar
It may not be opposite, but I find convetional Darwinism has nothing to offer at this level other than providing ad hoc stories of plausibility, evolutionary psychology is like making up stories as one gets along.


On the contrary, it provides clear and testable models for how altruism at such levels can arise through "selfish genes", such as kin selection, and "green beard" effects.

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9. Comment #148513 by Bonzai on March 23, 2008 at 8:32 am

How does altruism in kin groups translate to non kin groups? Members of kin groups have common genes but not in larger groups. Dawkins says it is a "mis-fire". It may turn out to be the only explanation, but it is not the kind of explanation which is so compelling that it would close off other alternative approaches once and for all.

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10. Comment #148515 by RobDinsmore on March 23, 2008 at 8:37 am

 avatarI really don't agree with the idea that religion needs to serve any evolutionary need when it comes to individuals or to a species. It probably evolved to fill some of the space left when we went from being hunter-gatherers to settling into agrarian villages or perhaps a little before that. Once people began to interact with each other for extended periods of time for reasons beyond just plain survival culture was born and religion is just an element of culture. It exists because there was time and energy available for it to do so and it stuck around because it was able to captivate people better than the other "wastes of time" available.

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11. Comment #148518 by Steve Zara on March 23, 2008 at 8:41 am

 avatar
How does altruism in kin groups translate to non kin groups? Members of kin groups have common genes but not in larger groups. Dawkins says it is a "mis-fire". It may turn out to be the only explanation, but it is not the kind of explanation which is so compelling that it would close off other alternative approaches once and for all.


OK, here we are taking about specific types of groups. What I was disputing was the generalised statement: "...seem to involve behaviour that promotes the group over the individual. That is the opposite of Darwinism as conventionally understood."

Large groups may well involve the kind of "misfiring" that Dawkins speculates about, but it is still selfish genes - it is the "green beard" mechanism gone wrong.

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12. Comment #148521 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on March 23, 2008 at 8:47 am

I like the way Chomsky defines religion
"As for religion being "a part of every observable society," if what is meant is that every society we know has sought to find some explanation for matters of deep human concern that we do not begin to understand (death, the origins of the universe, etc.), that's doubtless true. If one wants to call the constructs developed "religion," OK. I don't see what that implies, apart from the fact -- I presume it is a fact -- that people seek answers to hard questions, and where understanding reaches limits (very quickly, in most areas), they speculate, construct myths, etc. To draw conclusions about "human nature" from historical constructs of dominant societies in the past few thousand years seems to me quite a stretch."
- Noam Chomsky


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13. Comment #148522 by IanG on March 23, 2008 at 8:48 am

Steve,

So is it your view that the hypothesis of Group Selection playing a part in evolution is indeed fallacious and has been unambiguously refuted?

I'm just seeking data here.

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14. Comment #148526 by Steve Zara on March 23, 2008 at 8:56 am

 avatarComment #148522 by IanG
So is it your view that the hypothesis of Group Selection playing a part in evolution is indeed fallacious and has been unambiguously refuted?


Not at all. I just haven't yet seen any clear reports of if that can't be equally well explained by "selfish genes". My impression is that what Sloan Wilson is doing is labelling genes that benefit groups as "altruistic" rather than "selfish", which is highly misleading as the selection is still at the level of the gene - it is still "selfish genes".

At least that is my impression from recent articles and correspondence in New Scientist.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

15. Comment #148527 by Dr Benway on March 23, 2008 at 8:59 am

 avatarRegarding group selection where members do not share the same genes:

Imagine some in the group using altruistic strategies - that is, strategies which sacrifice self-interest (defined as the opportunity to replicate) to the advantage of others in the group, and some using selfish strategies. Over time, the gene frequency of the selfish strategies ought to increase.

If there is a more general principle of information replication at work, with genes being merely one example of a more general "unit of replication," you might be able to get group selection to work.

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16. Comment #148530 by IanG on March 23, 2008 at 9:05 am

Steve,

OK. Thanks.

So it's Occam's Razor with "selfish genes" providing the simplest and most accurate description of the largest amount of observable data and predicting future observations accurately?

I had thought that there were some growing questions in this area that were causing the "selfish gene" idea to stumble. I don't know what they are.

Is this like MMR where virtually every knowledgeable person on the planet dismissed this idea, and one or two people sold their bugbear to an uninformed population, or is the current cream of evolutionary academe significantly split on the issue of group selection.

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17. Comment #148533 by Steve Zara on March 23, 2008 at 9:08 am

 avatar
So it's Occam's Razor with "selfish genes" providing the simplest and most accurate description of the largest amount of observable data and predicting future observations accurately?


Yes, I think so.

Is this like MMR where virtually every knowledgeable person on the planet dismissed this idea, and one or two people sold their bugbear to an uninformed population, or is the current cream of evolutionary academe significantly split on the issue of group selection.


I really don't know! About every year or so an article appears somewhere in the popular science media saying "group selection is back!", but it never seems to lead anywhere.

Of course, the person to ask about all this is a certain Oxford Professor...

Other Comments by Steve Zara

18. Comment #148543 by Pattern Seeker on March 23, 2008 at 9:20 am

 avatarHey Everyone! I'm your host, Bunny H. Christ, and welcome to-

"LET'S PLAY DICTATOR!"

For those of of you playing along at home, it's time to explain the rules-

1. 'Introduce' the idea that a 'Dictator' actually exists and he loves you.

2. 'Prime' your mind by reading religious "horseshit"* phrases.

3. 'Pretend' that someones gives you some "mad money" to buy anything. Say ten dollars. About the same price as a gallon of gas.

4. Get someone to ask if you would like to share it. If you punch them in the face and say 'No', then- YOU WIN!

Is everyone ready to play?

Then- "LET'S PLAY DICTATOR!"

*scientific term


"Happy Beaster!"

Other Comments by Pattern Seeker

19. Comment #148546 by IanG on March 23, 2008 at 9:23 am

Steve,

Indeed!

:)

Other Comments by IanG

20. Comment #148550 by Peacebeuponme on March 23, 2008 at 9:30 am

Steve, Dr Benway, IanG - As usual I get here, read an article and see any thoughts I had (and more) already set out and discussed! Cheers.

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21. Comment #148558 by jayalenik on March 23, 2008 at 9:47 am

 avatar"On the face of things, it is puzzling that such costly behaviour should persist. Some scholars, however, draw an analogy with sexual selection. The splendour of a peacock's tail and the throaty roar of a stag really do show which males are fittest, and thus help females choose"

In The Ancestor's Tale Prof D writes about the peacock's appeal to females might be that it is fittest even with the burden of dragging around a oversized tale.
Maybe religious males are showing potential females that they flourish even with the yoke of stupidity around their necks.
I think thats how george got laura.

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22. Comment #148559 by Steve Zara on March 23, 2008 at 9:49 am

 avatar
Maybe religious males are showing potential females that they flourish even with the yolk of stupidity around their necks.


What a wonderful idea! It is a Zahavian handicap
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handicap_principle

I personally think religion is due to an evolved tendency to over-assign intentionality and agency, but I really like your idea.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

23. Comment #148560 by beelzebub on March 23, 2008 at 9:51 am

 avatarHmm... I'm a bit confused over this apparent dichotomy (Selfish-Gene/Group-Selection). Clearly humanity benefits enormously by organising themselves into groups (Tribes, Faiths, Societies etc), individuals, or groups of (selfish) indiviuals, who try to 'go it alone' will not reap the benefits of (altruistic) group membership (Security, resource-sharing, care when sick etc). Individuals who subsume their immediate self-interest for the interests of the group, will surely have a better chance of passing on their genes (especially in tough times). Is this not 'Group Selection'? Those groups of individuals that co-operate best, survive? This seems obvious to me, so why is it so dismissed?
Am I being a bit naive here? :-)

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24. Comment #148562 by IanG on March 23, 2008 at 9:55 am

Comment #148527 by Dr Benway

If there is a more general principle of information replication at work, with genes being merely one example of a more general "unit of replication," you might be able to get group selection to work.
Dr. Benway, thanks for that reminder of a fundamental question for any aspiring alternative hypothesis to address!

Other Comments by IanG

25. Comment #148564 by jayalenik on March 23, 2008 at 9:58 am

 avatarThanks Steve
I had to edit my yolk to a yoke and I think you got to it before I could,

I guess there is egg on my face

Sorry I couldnt help it

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26. Comment #148568 by IanG on March 23, 2008 at 10:08 am

Clearly God exists because the Afterlife exists and the evidence is provided by the fact that Tommy Cooper has been reincarnated in at least one person on this thread.

An egg joke on this Holiest of Days!

Rejoice!

:)

Other Comments by IanG

27. Comment #148569 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on March 23, 2008 at 10:08 am

Check out Price Equation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_equation

Incidentally this equation was the inspiration for a recent film

WAZ (should be W delta T)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0804552/

Other Comments by ThoughtsonCommonToad

28. Comment #148570 by Steve Zara on March 23, 2008 at 10:08 am

 avatarComment #148560 by beelzebub
Is this not 'Group Selection'? Those groups of individuals that co-operate best, survive? This seems obvious to me, so why is it so dismissed?
Am I being a bit naive here? :-)


You aren't being naive at all. This is an important question. What matters is what it is that is actually being selected. Consider a family, and close relations. They tend to love and care for each other, and co-operate. This is gene selection even though it benefits the group, because what is actually happening is that genes are recognising bodies that have copies of themselves and trying to help them survive (to anthropomorphise).

Other Comments by Steve Zara

29. Comment #148574 by Stafford Gordon on March 23, 2008 at 10:25 am

In COMMENT 1 by Steve Zara sights THE EXTENDED PHENOTYPE.

Not an easy read for a non scientist like myself but well worth the effort.

Other Comments by Stafford Gordon

30. Comment #148581 by beelzebub on March 23, 2008 at 10:41 am

 avatarSteve Zara wrote:
"You aren't being naive at all. This is an important question. What matters is what it is that is actually being selected. Consider a family, and close relations. They tend to love and care for each other, and co-operate. This is gene selection even though it benefits the group, because what is actually happening is that genes are recognising bodies that have copies of themselves and trying to help them survive (to anthropomorphise). "
I'm not so sure about the 'Family' argument - when the kids reach adulthood, they split from the family, to form families of their own. If this was all that groups were about, then there would be no tribes, no societies, no nations etc. If we are looking at the gene level of selection, then surely it would be those genes whose emergent properties are 'societal', hence enhancing the individuals chances of survival and reproducing, that would get passed-on? Genes that produced purely selfish behaviour would stand less chance of survival. So, "selfish genes" tying to get passed-on will tend towards maximising 'societal' behaviour in their phenotypic expression - those producing the more optimal societies will get selected more often - The more optimal societies will out-survive the less optimal societies, and so we have - Group selection!!
Or does the term "Group Selection" have a different, technical, meaning?

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31. Comment #148583 by alexmzk on March 23, 2008 at 10:47 am

i'd guess that religion arose in primitive societies as a way to explain stuff (eg. Greek Polytheism), combined with a way to create a tribal identity (eg. El vs. Yahweh).
it has since survived due to the positive associations it has accrued, plus the ideas of apostasy (possibly arising from the tribal in-group mentality), hell, tradition etc. sort of memetic evolution, i guess.

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32. Comment #148610 by Double Bass Atheist on March 23, 2008 at 11:57 am

 avatarPattern Seeker (aka Bunny H. Christ) -



Thanks, I needed that!

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33. Comment #148622 by 42nd on March 23, 2008 at 12:25 pm

 avatar
How does altruism in kin groups translate to non kin groups? Members of kin groups have common genes but not in larger groups. Dawkins says it is a "mis-fire". It may turn out to be the only explanation, but it is not the kind of explanation which is so compelling that it would close off other alternative approaches once and for all.


It's called game theory. Check prisoner's dilemma for more details of this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma

Life is not always zero sun game, and selfishness is not antithetical to teamwork.

So yeah, basically if it takes 10 people to kill a mammoth (and nothing smaller is available for hunting) , then they need to work together even if they don't really give a damn about each other.

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34. Comment #148628 by Dr Benway on March 23, 2008 at 12:38 pm

 avatar
Genes that produced purely selfish behaviour would stand less chance of survival.
Remember that "selfish" is a technical term, meaning "behaves in a way that furthers its own replication at the expense of competing replicators."

Our selfish genes cause us to lay down our lives for our brothers.

This model explains kin selection and reciprocal altruism.

If natural selection is actually working on groups rather than genes, well, it's difficult to model this, given what we know about gene selection.

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35. Comment #148630 by Steve Zara on March 23, 2008 at 12:43 pm

 avatarComment #148581 by beelzebub
Or does the term "Group Selection" have a different, technical, meaning?


The meaning can be vague. I would say it means that what is being selected is way above the level of the gene, or even above the level of the individual.

To give one example of a kind of group selection that is actually possible - species selection.

During environmental catastrophes there can be dramatic selection at the level of a species. For example, when the dinosaur-killer asteroid hit, it appeared that all animals above ground were killed. This means that small species that could burrow or hide had a chance of survival. So here, we are selecting species for a broad characteristic - size. It is not like the asteroid could have slowly reduced the size of existing species - it was too fast.

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36. Comment #148635 by JemyM on March 23, 2008 at 1:05 pm

 avatarCognitive psychology and sociology explains perfectly well how religions work.

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37. Comment #148638 by jayalenik on March 23, 2008 at 1:36 pm

 avatar"Cognitive psychology and sociology explains perfectly well how religions work."

Enlighten us

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38. Comment #148643 by Bonzai on March 23, 2008 at 1:49 pm


It's called game theory. Check prisoner's dilemma for more details of this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma


If it is "rational" thing,--albeit in an unconscious level,--how does it fit in with Dawkins' theory of "selfish genes misfiring"?


So yeah, basically if it takes 10 people to kill a mammoth (and nothing smaller is available for hunting) , then they need to work together even if they don't really give a damn about each other.


So that enhances the chance of survival of the group v.s other groups where members don't cooperate. Maybe I am naive like beelzebub, but that sounds like group selection to me.

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39. Comment #148646 by Dr Benway on March 23, 2008 at 2:06 pm

 avatar
So that enhance the chance of survival of the group v.s other groups where members don't cooperate. Maybe I am naive like beelzebub, but that sounds like group selection to me.
Individuals carrying genes which promote cooperation will out-compete individuals carrying genes that can't cooperate. Natural selection is acting upon the gene, not the group. The gene remains the replicator, not the group.

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40. Comment #148647 by 42nd on March 23, 2008 at 2:06 pm

 avatar
If it is "rational" thing,--albeit in an unconscious level,--how does it fit in with Dawkins' theory of "selfish genes misfiring"?


I never said that Dawkins was right.

So that enhance the chance of survival of the group v.s other groups where members don't cooperate. Maybe I am naive like beelzebub, but that sounds like group selection to me.


Not exactly, because your goal is still your own survival and no one else's (at least at genetic and unconscious level), you only drag others because you have to. In prisoner's dilemma, each prisoner is trying to get his own arse out of trouble, not caring about the other one, but they still end up cooperating.

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41. Comment #148648 by Steve Zara on March 23, 2008 at 2:10 pm

 avatarComment #148643 by Bonzai
If it is "rational" thing,--albeit in an unconscious level,--how does it fit in with Dawkins' theory of "selfish genes misfiring"?


Genes influence minds. There are many attitudes about reality that are almost certainly result of evolution.

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42. Comment #148649 by Bonzai on March 23, 2008 at 2:13 pm

yeah, but how is it a "misfire"?

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43. Comment #148652 by Steve Zara on March 23, 2008 at 2:18 pm

 avatarComment #148648 by Steve Zara
yeah, but how is it a "misfire"?


I don't think it is, personally. Having fuzziness about who you recognise as Kin, or who shares your genes can be helpful for your survival. For example, an adopted child can falsely recognise the adoptee parents (and their children) as "kin".

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44. Comment #148654 by Mark Smith on March 23, 2008 at 2:28 pm

how is it a "misfire"?

When I have heard Dawkins and others using the phrase I have understood them to imply that in the changed environment (usually developed society rather than 'primitive' village) the gene causes you to do things that might no longer be beneficial to the gene in question. Eg helping strangers. Of course, this might turn out to be of benefit, but for different reasons than in the original environment, in which case it would be a "misfire", but a beneficial misfire.

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45. Comment #148661 by Bonzai on March 23, 2008 at 2:38 pm

42nd

Not exactly, because your goal is still your own survival and no one else's (at least at genetic and unconscious level), you only drag others because you have to. In prisoner's dilemma, each prisoner is trying to get his own arse out of trouble, not caring about the other one, but they still end up cooperating.


But then they seem to be just different levels of descriptions, like thermodynamics and statistical mechanics. "Groups" do exhibit cohesion and from what you are saying they do get selected as units. Whatever the "goals" of individuals may be, it doesn't invalidate the group level description.

Besides, if you are right we would expect a lot more traitors in wars and conflicts when working with a superior enemy often seems to provide a better chance for individual survival and gene propagation, But there are strong group incentives against such actions. You can of course argue in some convoluted way that group loyalty is better for individual survival at normal time, but wouldn't it be simpler to describe the group dynamics using group variables instead? I don't know.

Moreover, if you do reductionism all the way down, whatever beneficial to individuals may not be beneficial in terms of gene propagation, Example technically advanced societies provide better chances for individual survival but they also also have less children. It is not an coincidence either.

EDIT And why stop at genes?. The late physicist Heinz Pagels wrote in his book "the dream of reason" that Dawkins had it all wrong, the genes were themselves only the play things of DNAs, I don't remember how the argument went, but will look it up when I have a chance.

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46. Comment #148769 by mark85 on March 23, 2008 at 9:58 pm

Nice to see an article on the "Science of Religion" rather than the "Religion of Science" for a change.

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47. Comment #148777 by Spinoza on March 23, 2008 at 10:45 pm

 avatar
And why stop at genes?. The late physicist Heinz Pagels wrote in his book "the dream of reason" that Dawkins had it all wrong, the genes were themselves only the play things of DNAs, I don't remember how the argument went, but will look it up when I have a chance.


Because genes code for proteins that actually do things (that is, on the level of the organism).

They're the lowest level at which there is something meaningful to say that isn't just chemical or physical (meaning, particle physics).

Also, the way you've worded it doesn't sound quite right (I could be wrong though)... it seems to me that "DNA" just IS genes... to talk about genes is to talk about your DNA...

SO if anything, what Pagels might've said was something about genes just being the "playthings" of the nucleotides... which would just be playthings of the smaller sugars and esters and phosphate groups...

But that just kills all usefulness whatsoever...

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48. Comment #148798 by the_ultimate_samurai on March 24, 2008 at 12:22 am

i dont think the idea for group selection isnt apt here, because in this case you would be looking at group evolution, the evolution of societies (memetic evolution, not genetic) so a society that DOESNT survive well or isnt fit, will naturaly fall, religion does play a part in keeping the SOCIETY as a whole together. by this means the fitness isnt on the people but the society, while the people themselves (who are the vehicles for this meme) benefit by having the society survive. even if THEY die to continue this society, they usualy do it for their children and family.

taking a suicide bomber i think the fact that THEY go to heaven isnt always the most important thing, i think many times its that their FAMILY ALSO goes to heaven for their sacrifice that is the most important. (esspecialy in female suicide bombers)

the individual people get something for the survival of the meme, but the meme only survives if the society survives. it outlives individual people, but needs a group.
by this, group selection is apt, much like a drone that gives its life to protect a hive is more fit for doing it. most of the hive shares its genes, so its genes live on, since the society shares the memes of religion, the meme lives on even if one of the drones dies. (and this is true of any society i shouldnt say its unique to religion) whether this is anti-darwinian im not sure. since its a meme not a gene it can live on through people with totaly different genes, but then the darwinian influence lies with the differential survivability of societies in general. so if you have a fitness of being in a society to not, then you already have the means for this meme to come about, then survivability afterwords is less on the gene (since its true of any society) but on the meme (its ability to propigate for instance, prosteliziting seems ubiquitous to religions, because prostelitizing is more fit for the propogation of the meme and makes it less dependant on the survivability of the people (compared to just passing it from parrent to child))

or maybe im just terribly incurably confused...either way...interesting, if not confusing, article.

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49. Comment #148822 by gcdavis on March 24, 2008 at 2:26 am

 avatarYou don't need to spend much time trying to find a biological reason for the existence of religion. For most of human history god was the ONLY reasonable explanation for the events that human beings experienced but had no control over. If we had lived 5000 years ago we would have assumed that an electric storm had occurred for a reason, what better explanation than the anger of an unseen diety?

Science has explained the true nature of an electric storm and many other things besides. The reason that so many people still believe in god is that they have been born into cultures where these tired old myths are still peddled by self serving priests whose purpose in life is the continuation of their own brand of the supernatural.

As most of humankind are poorly educated and ignorant of course they do not question religious authority. That religion persists in the developed world is because the religious brainwashing is more sophisticated, but its days are surely numbered. It may take 20, 50, or 100 years for that tipping point to occur, but it surely will, when human beings see belief in god is as ridiculous as belief in santa.

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50. Comment #148878 by quill on March 24, 2008 at 12:44 pm

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Similarly, signs of religious commitment that are hard to fake provide a costly and reliable signal to others in a group that anyone engaging in them is committed to that group. Free-riders, in other words, would not be able to gain the advantages of group membership. [...] Religion might have emerged as a way of improving group co-operation while reducing the need to keep an eye out for free-riders.
I assume we're talking about "free riders" other than priests, haha.

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