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Sunday, April 13, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Richard Dawkins' secular army must be stopped. God is behind some of our greatest art

by Guardian


This is a fine illustration of how critics just assume they know what is in a book, either from its title or from reading other critics, without ever bothering to open it. When you finish reading this, please read Religious education as a part of literary culture, an extract from The God Delusion.




Reposted from:
http://arts.guardian.co.uk/art/visualart/story/0,,2273469,00.html#article_continue

Richard Dawkins' secular army must be stopped. God is behind some of our greatest art
Mark Ravenhill
Monday April 14, 2008
The Guardian


And so the stellar casting in Doctor Who continues with the news that Professor Richard Dawkins, biologist and bestselling author of The God Delusion, is to appear in the current series as himself. On Outpost Gallifrey, the definitive Doctor Who website, I read that Russell T Davies, the show's executive producer, and all the crew were delighted to see Dawkins. "People were falling at his feet," says Davies. "We've had Kylie Minogue on that set, but it was Dawkins that people were worshipping."

It's a great tribute to our age that a scientist can still be greeted with more adulation than a pop princess. But I can't help noting the irony of the imagery that Dawkins' reception has conjured up. Falling at his feet? Worshipping? It all seems oddly reminiscent of the triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem in the days before his Passion; a strange resonance for the scientist who has declared himself the champion of secularism in a world where, he claims, the delusions of faith are gaining an increasing stranglehold.

Christianity is a myth. But it's a myth that has helped us - and continues to help us - ask searching moral and philosophical questions. Ours is an age in which a lack of belief, at least in secular Europe, is prized. Before, having one overarching belief was central to life, guiding our choices. But now we're all supposed to travel light, be supple, so that we can swap jobs, partners or political allegiances at a moment's notice. But this perpetual state of agnosticism, this lack of commitment, must surely be corrosive. Those who are able to locate, and to explore intelligently, a system of belief, be that religious or political, are surely making a valuable contribution to our times. We may not share their beliefs, but we should treasure them.

As a child, I had a few years of passionate interest in the church. I'm not sure I ever connected with the spiritual aspect of God. I went to a Methodist church, where we were more robustly pragmatic than metaphysical, but I loved biblical stories more than any other children's literature. The great, essential dramas of father and son, mother and child, brother and brother, were fought out on those pages and gripped my imagination. I loved the sometimes mysterious beauty of the King James Bible, and I loved singing along with the great marching, proto-socialist anthems of the Methodist church.

As my teenage years hit, so did disillusion, and I retreated into my bedroom with a stack of records and John Peel for company. But I'm sure the narrative, ritual and music of the church were an essential part of my education as a writer. I'm not alone. The late Sarah Kane acknowledged that her youthful Christianity was the single most formative influence on her playwriting. It's strange to think that her Blasted and my Shopping and Fucking wouldn't have been written without the Christian church. But that's the truth. There's something about their sharp iconography and intense language that suggests a youthful experience of Christianity on the part of the writer. And I resent the possibility that aggressive secularism would deny future generations this inspiration.

The Bible - as literature, if nothing else - should be an essential part of every child's experience. And children should study the great Christian art of the past, too. We often have a revisionist view of this great legacy of paintings, music and literature. Of course, we can't help denying the beauty and resonance of the Sistine Chapel, Handel's Messiah, Milton's Paradise Lost or the York mystery plays. But we like to tell ourselves that their creators were covert humanists, who wanted to make art and had no choice other than to make it within the confines of a church that held all the power and money.

This idea that all artists are essentially humanists is a comforting myth for an agnostic age. There is little evidence to support it. It is, if you like, the agnostic's delusion - because the very opposite is true. The greatest artists, from Matthias Grünewald in the 15th century to Benjamin Britten in the 20th, had a genuine Christian faith: complicated, questioning, agonised at times, as any intelligent faith should be, but a very real faith all the same.

The church continues to play a largely beneficent role in the arts ecology of Britain. It maintains and restores the legacy of church architecture - an important collection of beautiful buildings whatever your beliefs. And churches up and down the country offer, as any working musician will testify, a fantastic programme of recitals and concerts of both secular and religious pieces, often for free or for a low ticket price. Areas where there is little access to live classical music are having that provision met almost entirely by the church. The more enlightened churches are still commissioning work, from paintings to sculptures and music.

Of course, we have to guard against the aggressive and restrictive fundamentalism that has poisoned so much of America. In the US, evangelicals and fundamentalists have now strangled school curricula and stunted, if not actually dictated, the agendas of arts organisations, leaving the nation culturally poorer. But we're not America. Our Christian tradition is very different. We should celebrate the Christian legacy in western art and society - and stop the Dawkins army from denying us the possibility of drawing inspiration from faith to create the art of the future.

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1. Comment #160289 by cam9976 on April 13, 2008 at 10:31 pm

 avatarIt't not a very convincing argument is it? that we should ignore all the bad stuff religion does to the world because of its benefits to art...

Other Comments by cam9976

2. Comment #160290 by Galactic Lord Xenu on April 13, 2008 at 10:32 pm

 avatarMore pathetic hogwash, more idiotic editorializing, etc...

Dawkins doesn't even need to defend himself on this, because he already has.

People have been influenced by religion to make great works of art. OK. That doesn't change the fact that despite the inspiration and the emotional behind those works, religion is a falsehood, a superstition.

They say Christianity is a myth--so what do they propose? Believing what they know to be a lie? Teaching other people what they think is false?

People have turned to mythology as inspiration for ages. Even during the Renaissance, when they weren't painting yet another Mary and Jesus work, they would very frequently draw on inspiration from the great Greek and Roman mythologies--Birth of Venus is a famous example off the top of my head. We still draw on the great myths for inspiration, yet none of us (well... a few still hold out for the various pantheons...) believe in the Greek and Norse gods.

And nobody is advocating one believe in Greek mythology to enjoy the art behind it. It's fun, yes, but we are not fighting against mere artistic usage of religion.

And I laugh at the idea of the Christian religion exploring complex philosophical ideas. The theology can be convoluted, yes; the religion itself, the actual beliefs, dogmas, and the ideas in the bible, pale in comparison to even a little reading of Hume, Nietzsche, Kant, etc, religious or irreligious.

Much of the great art merely reflects the periods they came from--without religion, we'd almost certainly have something else. The fact that religion was the subject matter because in ages past people were more preoccupied with it does not mean it can, or would have, been the only type of art.

I find it silly, it seems that this clown is almost advocating we keep religion and superstition around because of paintings and music, things in which ANYTHING can be its subject matter.

Other Comments by Galactic Lord Xenu

3. Comment #160291 by Galactic Lord Xenu on April 13, 2008 at 10:37 pm

 avatarOh, and to expand on my previous post:

This guy is making essentially a type of fallacy that assumes that because of what we have in the present, we couldn't have had as good or better alternatives had the past been different.

Had Christianity (and religion) never existed, we'd be lacking much of the great arts we see today, but we'd have other great works to compensate for it.

Other Comments by Galactic Lord Xenu

4. Comment #160293 by riki on April 13, 2008 at 10:44 pm

 avatarI'm sure the Disney classics probably have a similar positive effect with conveying the odd moral tale. That doesn't mean we need to worship Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs or teach it as fact.

Either way I still can't see the connection between religion and morality. The faithful accept God unconditionally because he is God, not because he is good. That would imply conditional acceptance.

Other Comments by riki

5. Comment #160294 by papavb on April 13, 2008 at 10:46 pm

Bah!

This is probably the most flaccid piece of apologetics I've yet to come across. Beyond the ignorance the author displays of the person he's criticizing, he fails to cook up anything novel.

Of all the people who want us to revere the daydreams of dead sunbaked mountebanks, this I-dont-believe-it-but-we-best-respect-it-lest-all-of-society-flounder-into-the-roiled-brine-of-rapine-and-despondency, is the least humorous, most nebulous, and ultimately boring and nettlesome type.

p.s.: sorry for rambling on, it's 2 am and I'm half-asleep

Other Comments by papavb

6. Comment #160296 by Strappado on April 13, 2008 at 10:54 pm

 avatarThe best thing about Nazi Germany was the design. Bring back Hitler!

Other Comments by Strappado

7. Comment #160297 by Louis Perry on April 13, 2008 at 10:58 pm

Oh, please. Men and women have created, and will continue to create, great, inspiring (secular) art that is, and will be, the equal of anything ever produced by the "inspiration from faith." That the "Dawkins army" could be a threat to art is purely laughable.

Other Comments by Louis Perry

8. Comment #160298 by Traytheist on April 13, 2008 at 10:59 pm

 avatarComplete bullshit!

Richard isn't advocating deleting the bible or any of the art or architecture that were inspired by it.

I would think that a large amount of non-believers would be loathe to do that as well, considering the beauty of some religious-themed art, and certain churches, not to mention an understanding of some of the greatest works of literature the world has ever seen.

He has obviously never read TGD, or he would know this.

Dare I call strawman?

Other Comments by Traytheist

9. Comment #160299 by BathTub on April 13, 2008 at 11:00 pm

I'm quite sure I've heard Richard Dawkins advocate study of the bible as literature and an important cultural history document plenty of times, so I really don't get his point.

Other Comments by BathTub

10. Comment #160301 by RamziD on April 13, 2008 at 11:05 pm

I don't think RD has ever denied the effect religion has had on the arts. The journalist in this article seems to be implying that RD would prefer to do away with biblical writings altogether. I think he has made it clear, though, on many occasions that the bible should be appreciated in a literary sense, if nothing else. He has also stated that all religions should be taught about in schools. Again, the author seems to be implying that the goal is to exterminate all signs of religion, and that is not true.

Other Comments by RamziD

11. Comment #160302 by Janus on April 13, 2008 at 11:06 pm

 avatarThis article's a joke, right? Right? Right?

Other Comments by Janus

12. Comment #160303 by flying goose on April 13, 2008 at 11:09 pm

 avatarHas this person read TGD?

'The Bible - as literature, if nothing else - should be an essential part of every child's experience. ' see Ch 9 RD agrees. Even my initial supermarket flick through revealed that to me,

Other Comments by flying goose

13. Comment #160304 by HeyBishop on April 13, 2008 at 11:13 pm

 avatarDawkins and his army are hardly trying to bury religion from existence. Dawkins has said on many occasions that children should be taught ABOUT religion. The author of this article got one thing right; religion has been quite important to the arts, and it will continue to be so. It really would be a crime to forget religion. These are points that no one in Dawkins' army would deny. Ultimately this article has no value. It didn't tell anyone anything new, other than the fact that the good doctor will be meeting The Doctor. How cool will that be!?

Other Comments by HeyBishop

14. Comment #160305 by quill on April 13, 2008 at 11:15 pm

 avatarAs an artist myself I feel compelled to point out that the field of art has been dominated by nonbelievers over the past century or so, just as the sciences have been. This is even true here in the "culturally poorer" USA, which incidentally has been the center of the modern art world for much of that time.

Other Comments by quill

15. Comment #160307 by ghost of numf-el on April 13, 2008 at 11:23 pm

What a load of shite.

Other Comments by ghost of numf-el

16. Comment #160308 by Christopher Davis on April 13, 2008 at 11:27 pm

What seems to escape Ravenhill, is that Davies probably would not have used the word "worshipping" if it weren't for religious tradition.

I'm sure Davies meant it as an metaphor. I seriously doubt anyone prostrated themselves in front of Dr. Dawkins. Davies could have as easily said "falling all over themselves". Would we then be justified in concluding that the majority of the crew are clumsy?

In western society. the only subject more commonly called on to produce metaphors than Christianity is war...which, by the way, has also been the inspiration for quite a few works of art. Should we keep it around for old times sake as well?

Other Comments by Christopher Davis

17. Comment #160309 by Skid on April 13, 2008 at 11:28 pm

Let's not overvalue the word "inspired" too much! If religion never existed to inspire, talented and thinking people would still have had a million other things they could draw upon for inspiration in a split second (philosophy, nature, people, love, sex...to name a few). Sources of inspiration are a dime a dozen, often a mere passing thought, or (more often than not) entirely someone else's idea. Let's be truthful here -- gainful employment was (and is) the true "inspiration" that the church offered the many artists it has employed. The true magic (metaphorically speaking) always was/is in the minds and bodies of the architects, the engineers, the painters, the craftsmen, the thinkers, the philosophers...not in the inspirational source! Please stop the idiotic practice of equivocation between the true value of art/architecture/philosophy/thought and the inspirational sources behind them. Inspiration is, at most, a mild catalyst and more often than not, quite disposable.

Who knows what future generations will truly find helpful from our reign on Earth, but to think our own experiences of life are likely to be indispensable (or even useful) to the people who come after us, simply because we found them so, is the definition of a solipsistic mind at work. People will continue to grow and flourish in ways we can't even imagine -- and quite likely, with minimal help from Mr. Ravenhill's precious church and Bible.

Other Comments by Skid

18. Comment #160311 by JHS on April 13, 2008 at 11:35 pm

And as if this tosh needed a capper, his little qualification at the bottom ("Of course,...") completely undermines the rest of his argument. It's awfully hard to pat a religion on the head for having pretty churches while they basically continue to wage war on gays, women, atheists, other religious delusionals, science, civil liberties, etc.

Other Comments by JHS

19. Comment #160312 by Damien White on April 13, 2008 at 11:36 pm

Wow. This is one of the few time i've ever felt like slapping an atheist/agnostic for their beliefs.

The author seems to be advocating that everyone but himself should be religious so that he can live off of the supposed benefits of the society they create. Essentially he's happy being atheist but he's not happy that everyone else is.

Mark Ravenhill, whoever you are, please stick your head in a bucket of water three times and pull it out twice.

Other Comments by Damien White

20. Comment #160314 by mblarson323 on April 13, 2008 at 11:42 pm

 avatarWho is this boob and why does the Guardian allow such pedantic drivel to soil its pages?

"this lack of commitment, must surely be faw faw, faw faw faw"

"be that religious or political, are surely faw faw faw faw faw faw"

This moron seems to think that if he makes liberal use of the words "surely" and "certainly" thoughout his witless discourse it will lend an air of "british credibility" to an otherwise vacuous argument. "Pathetic" is too kind a word! I should sue the author for the time I lost reading this crap.

And "Dawkin's Army?" What comprises any army these days? Have I been missing something? Has Richard been leading an angry mob of militants that has completely escaped my attention? Somebody please tell me where they muster, so I can join them!

Shit, I'm gonna go get a shingle that says "Journalist" and hang it outside my door. Apparently, that's all it takes to get published these days.

Other Comments by mblarson323

21. Comment #160315 by njwong on April 13, 2008 at 11:43 pm

 avatarFoolish drivel written by an ignoramus who didn't read the man he is criticising.

Other Comments by njwong

22. Comment #160317 by born-again-atheist on April 13, 2008 at 11:48 pm

 avatarAll I can say is.. I want to see that Doctor Who Episode!

Other Comments by born-again-atheist

23. Comment #160318 by zoomlines on April 13, 2008 at 11:58 pm

Surely one of the greatest threats to Art at the moment is religion itself.

The Taliban in Aghanistan destroying the Buddhas of Bamyan for example. And in the West it stifles Art through 'moral' censorship. It may even be as stifling to Art as it is to Science!

Other Comments by zoomlines

24. Comment #160319 by Quine on April 14, 2008 at 12:07 am

 avatarWell, there goes Santa as an art subject.

Other Comments by Quine

25. Comment #160321 by He'sAVeryNaughtyBoy on April 14, 2008 at 12:14 am

The first three paragraphs are pure drivel written from a position of ignorance.

"But this perpetual state of agnosticism, this lack of commitment, must surely be corrosive."
WTF? You mean we're not allowed to change our minds? We aren't allowed to weigh the evidence as it comes to us to develop a sound conclusion? We must pick an option and stick to it through thick and thin like some half baked fundamentalist? Bullshit!

The rest of the piece reads as though he's not even read Dawkins, but is instead arguing against what he thinks the prof should be rather than what he does say.

What a load of rot.

Other Comments by He'sAVeryNaughtyBoy

26. Comment #160322 by Matt7895 on April 14, 2008 at 12:14 am

 avatarRichard has addressed this himself, many times, as have Sam, Christopher and Dan. Just another sorry example of a critic who hasn't read up on the man he blasts.

Other Comments by Matt7895

27. Comment #160323 by Koreman on April 14, 2008 at 12:19 am

Santaclaus is inspiring too. Many grew up with a few years believing. Fond memories. Nice art has been produced.

Other Comments by Koreman

28. Comment #160326 by hungarianelephant on April 14, 2008 at 12:33 am

 avatarThe Christian legacy in art ... are we talking about Cliff Richard here?

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

29. Comment #160328 by UnholyGodn on April 14, 2008 at 12:46 am

I seem to remember Dr Dawkins mentioning on a number of occasions inlcuding in TGD, that he is not against the study of Christian culture for better understanding of English language (He specifically states the requirement of christian knowledge to fully appreciate shakespere) I'm sure that this goes to include that he does not want any of these monuments mentioned torn down, or any art destroyed. I don't think anyone does. We can study Religion and it's good things, without having to believe in it.

Other Comments by UnholyGodn

30. Comment #160329 by John Desclin on April 14, 2008 at 12:49 am

This was a rather both ludicrous and sorry piece of drivel. Does it deserve such publicity and concern from all reasonable people here?
I would think it just should be forgotten.

Other Comments by John Desclin

31. Comment #160331 by shonny on April 14, 2008 at 12:50 am

Mark Ravenhill:

Go and find a fairly thick felt pen.
Then find a mirror big enough so you can see your whole face.
Then look into that mirror for five minutes.
Then use the felt pen to write: FUCKWIT in capital letters across the mirror.
Then look into the mirror for another five minutes.
After that hopefully something will dawn upon you.

If not, follow the advice above about submerging your head in a bucket three times, and pull it out only twice.

Other Comments by shonny

32. Comment #160332 by bamboospitfire on April 14, 2008 at 12:51 am

 avatarOh dear. You really are quite dim, aren't you, Mr Ravenhill?

First off, we have the bald assertion that "this perpetual state of agnosticism, this lack of commitment, must surely be corrosive. Those who are able to locate, and to explore intelligently, a system of belief, be that religious or political, are surely making a valuable contribution to our times." Is that so? Says who? I was hoping that the following paragraph might contain some evidence for this assertion. Perhaps unsurprisingly, none was forthcoming. Pathetic.

So Mr Ravenhill enjoyed Biblical stories as a child? Whoop-de-doo. The only reason that is the case is because he was taught the nice ones, rather than the stories of fire and brimstone and eternal damnation for questioning the divinity of Jesus. He goes on to argue that the Bible is a literary necessity. Indeed it is. None of this supports religion itself and Professor Dawkins has said time and again that he regards the Bible as an essential literary source. This section could have been written by the Professor himself: "The Bible - as literature, if nothing else - should be an essential part of every child's experience. And children should study the great Christian art of the past, too. We often have a revisionist view of this great legacy of paintings, music and literature. Of course, we can't help denying the beauty and resonance of the Sistine Chapel, Handel's Messiah, Milton's Paradise Lost or the York mystery plays."

As for humanist artists, who cares whether they believed or not? It doesn't make the myth true. And as for the Church commissioning new work, is there not sufficient art in any event? And would artists not paint religious scenes without commissions to do so - if they believed?

Anyway, to the point. That we are seeking to undermine art, literature and aesthetics in general. What libellous bullshit. I have heard of no-one who supports the work that Professor Dawkins has done with regard to religion claim that any such aim should be encouraged. For Ravenhill to argue otherwise is utterly disingenuous, flying in the face of everything Professor Dawkins has said on the topic. Ravenhill should be ashamed of himself. A lazy, pointless and downright wrong article.

Other Comments by bamboospitfire

33. Comment #160336 by Logicel on April 14, 2008 at 1:05 am

 avatarSounds like a Christian culture junkie. Other religions, past and present, also have contributed to art and are important in those cultures.

If having faith is embracing myth as truth, and Ravenhill accepts that is silly, then how can embracing something he has dissed himself be the impetus for inspired creativity?

His pathetic apologetics reminds me of the British couple decades ago, when excessive sugar intake was first reviled as being a cause of ill health, they said, ridiculous, sugar is good, and wrote a cook book glorifying the daily use of sugar. Once we know something is not good, why encourage its use?

Human ability to embrace magical thinking will always be the inspiration for creative works, and that is the ability which religion harnessed for its own pernicious ends. Remove religion, and that ability remains, waiting to be channeled for creative endeavors.

Other Comments by Logicel

34. Comment #160337 by Adam Morrison on April 14, 2008 at 1:05 am

 avatarCue Irate!

Has this person ever read a single atheist argument? Urgh! This brings to mind a cringing sycophant that plays up to the church 'I know YOU guys are different than those bad Christians...'

Tripe. Art and Literature could and have formed without direct religious stimuli for centuries. Yes most artists and writers have been religious, but only because most people have been religious.

Someone needs to brush up on Socrates, Lucretius, Democritus, Verdi, Spinoza, etc.

(Oh and no one here approves of Hero worship except in the case of 1980s Hulk Hogan if you were under 10 at the time :)

Other Comments by Adam Morrison

35. Comment #160338 by happy on April 14, 2008 at 1:07 am

"This idea that all artists are essentially humanists is a comforting myth for an agnostic age. There is little evidence to support it. It is, if you like, the agnostic's delusion - because the very opposite is true."

Wow.
Is this one of those straw man comments? I have never known "us lot" to have started claiming all artists were not inspired by religion.

People who've made their mind up will eat this up gladly. I hope everyone else, theist or not, scratches their head at this.

Other Comments by happy

36. Comment #160341 by Tauriq on April 14, 2008 at 1:11 am

Ravenhill has obviously not read anything of Dawkins or Dennett. He would know that Dawkins and Dennet both propose an objective view of ALL religions. Even Ravenhill is focussing ONLY on Christianity - what about Islamic architecture? What about the translations of Arabic scholars of Aristostle, scholars "inspired by God" (whatever Ravenhil means by that). He is also averse to using "atheist" as if it is a poisoned word that will hurt him.

He should know that Dawkins wants exactly that: a view of the Bible as simply literature. I am a novelist myself and have used the Bible many times, as the English is amazing. But, my atheism does not stop me from appreciating various "religious" iconography. Ravenhill also forgets about the time period many artists created there great works in - who had the money, the "sponsorship deals", the power, to give to the artists? Pagans and secularists? No! The Church. As Dawkins says often: "we will never know what would have happened if Michaelangelo was asked to pain the ceiling of the Science Museum."

This article has wafts of unread scholarship, denial of atheist open-mindedness and wondering why a secular scientist could be worshipped. Wouldn't deifying a man promoting the destruction of deification of anykind be contradictory? This article holds no water and it is quite sad to see such trash from such a usually reliable paper. And I'm writing from South Africa.

Other Comments by Tauriq

37. Comment #160342 by foxfire on April 14, 2008 at 1:13 am

 avatar
The Bible - as literature, if nothing else - should be an essential part of every child's experience. And children should study the great Christian art of the past, too.


Yeah...Dawkins makes this very point not only in several of his books but also in interviews. Been paying attention a lot Mark? Developing a conclusion based on your own observations?

Apparently not.

As for the title of your article:
Richard Dawkins' secular army must be stopped. God is behind some of our greatest art


I find that personally offensive. Since when has secular been defined as anti-art? And since when has the Christian god been a criteria for producing great art (see ancient Egypt, Greece, India, China, Persia, yadda)

Mark Ravenhill, you have the same mindset as the religious extremists in my country, which you so vehemently oppose.

Other Comments by foxfire

38. Comment #160343 by Logicel on April 14, 2008 at 1:14 am

 avatarAnd how does Dawkins and the spirited reception to his appearing in Dr. Who have any connection to Ravenhill's concerns? If any, they refute them, as Dawkins is being involved in a creative endeavor by appearing in Dr. Who!

Other Comments by Logicel

39. Comment #160346 by Duffman6 on April 14, 2008 at 1:20 am

 avatarWhat was this?


Chapter 3 of The God Delusion?


This articles is what manifests as a result of arguments from ignorance. Dawkins clearly states his position on religious art: which is none less than reverence and respect with the reason of not buying into it's message. St. Matthew's Passion by Bach was one of the mentioned religious arts. It is a very, very simple concept. The common man or woman does not need a degree in physcology to know that people draw inspiration from both reality and delusion. Nor does a reporter need to read much into Dawkins to know his stance on it.

So Dawkins doesn't believe in god and wants Atheism to be taken seriously.

How it is translated in this article: The militant war lord Richard Dawkins should be impeached from his position as general of the atheist army before he and his soldiers burn down churches and make bonfires out of Paradise Lost and Veggie Tales.

Anyone with a high school education in journalism could recognize the ignorance in it.

Other Comments by Duffman6

40. Comment #160348 by scoobie on April 14, 2008 at 1:26 am


Falling at his feet? Worshipping? It all seems oddly reminiscent of the triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem in the days before his Passion;
This was obviously Ravenhill's first draft and he really ought to have had another go. RT Davies obviously meant it as a metaphor and besides, people have been falling at the feet of revered people for millennia. So why should it be reminiscent specifically of a mythical godman riding two donkeys on his way to eventually being crucified? Is this just an example of shoe-horning in an ill-fitting story construct or does RD get to rise from the dead in this episode?

Other Comments by scoobie

41. Comment #160350 by D'Arcy on April 14, 2008 at 1:32 am

 avatarWhat the author seems to have missed out is that the great works of art, religion, music etc., inspired by religious belief, were actually created by HUMAN BEINGS. J. S. Bach was a man, but wrote the most sublime religious (and secular) music. Humanity first every time! Religion creates nothing except mystery, it plaigarises its contempoary society and then claims the culture as its own. Thieves in the night, these priests.

Other Comments by D'Arcy

42. Comment #160355 by Jiten on April 14, 2008 at 1:40 am

 avatarI agree strongly with what Skid said.This article is a third rate piece of crap.Just like many before it from the Guardian.What's with the Guardian?Are they deliberately out to stir things up?How can such a piss poor article get past the Editor?

Other Comments by Jiten

43. Comment #160356 by Luis_Cayetano on April 14, 2008 at 1:41 am

"Worshipping"? "Falling at his feet"? Does it not occur to this dunce that perhaps, unlike Jesus (today, if not in antiquity), people DON'T ACTUALLY worship and fall at the feet of Dawkins, but that this was merely colourful language to stand in for people's admiration of him? (well deserved, one would think, for providing a breath of fresh air in this age of nauseating, annoying, dumb-as-shit pop-gibberish)

Do Dawkins' detractors have to resort to such openly pathetic devices as word-play in order to diminish him? And what "secular army" is Ravenhill talking about? (or does he now understand the value of metaphor?) An army has a command and control structure, with a dictator (in the form of a general) at the helm. Dawkins isn't a commander of any sort. He can inspire or spur me to do something, but he can't COMMAND me to do it. Does David Attenborough likewise have a "naturalist army"? The only one even hinting at anything akin to open military conflict is this Ravenhill fuck. None of the well known atheist authors dreams of getting rid of religious art, or of denying it to anyone, just as they don't want to get rid of any other art based on fiction, which everyone acknowledges can be deeply moving without actually having to believe it.

Other Comments by Luis_Cayetano

44. Comment #160357 by Vadjong on April 14, 2008 at 1:42 am

 avatarAww, far too easy.
God Himself (and ALL the other gods, too) is the product of human inspiration. One of our first, and less accomplished idea's.
Imagine Rembrandt as a toddler, drawing a shaky stick figure on the kitchenfloor with a piece of charcoal, pointing and crowing: "Pa pa".

Are the apologists not even trying anymore?

Other Comments by Vadjong

45. Comment #160358 by ridelo on April 14, 2008 at 1:43 am

 avatarIt would certainly help if Mark Ravenhill could for a while become a reader in stead of a writer. His idea of Richard Dawkins could become a bit less nebulous.

Other Comments by ridelo

46. Comment #160359 by hungover on April 14, 2008 at 1:45 am

"aggressive secularism"?

How is writing a few books and appearing on a few talk shows, calmly arguing against faith, considered aggressive? By religious standards the "Dawkins army" is a pussycat.

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47. Comment #160361 by whig on April 14, 2008 at 1:48 am

This article would be more credible if he acknowledged the particular arguments in The God Delusion, without which it seems he hasnt even read the book he's criticizing. He has two points, one about morality, the second about art. On the first, I have in front of my a coffee table book, The Great Philosophers, which has profiles of 54 philosophers from antient times to those still living. Obviously some of those were in a Christian context, but a fair amount of them were not, either for being before Jesus' time or modern secularists. What we think of morality at this stage is a mix of all these influences, as well as a reaction to events of the last century and certain amount of biological instinct. Personally, I see Christianity as a poor guide for morality.

On art, how many times does Dawkins have to cite Bach's Matthew Passion as one his favourite pieces of music for people not to think that he proposes that we tear down our beautiful architecture and replace it Soviet-style blocks. The author names two artists who believed, Matthias Grünewald and Benjamin Britten. So what, what does that prove? To put the case as he does he needs to show how an atheist is incapable of producing great art, and how atheists disapprove of art because it is religious. Paradise Lost is a great work of literature, based on an epic tale as told in the Bible, just as the Iliad and the Odyssey have the old Greek gods playing a part, and I have no greater problem with one than the other.

Oh, and I look forward to watching that Doctor Who episode with my little brother. Last year, I gave him a book on the Science of Doctor Who and the DVD of Growing Up in the Universe, and given how much of Who fan he is, I was chuffed when he said he liked Dawkins more.

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48. Comment #160362 by Russell Blackford on April 14, 2008 at 1:51 am

It's a silly article - naive in its approach and only mentioning Richard Dawkins because his name makes good copy.

It does touch on some interesting issues, though. If anyone wants to take part in a more informed and rigorous discussion of them than Ravenhill's, come over here ...

http://metamagician3000.blogspot.com/2008/04/nice-pro-religious-argument.html

... where we happen to be discussing some similar things, and I'm talking with some really smart people.

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49. Comment #160364 by CJ22 on April 14, 2008 at 1:56 am

 avatarSo Russell T. Davies uses a bit of religious language (ironically, presumably, since he's an atheist), therefore secularism is just the same as religion and the whole secularist project fails? This straw man is so big it's blotting out the sun.

Ravenhill sets his own premise, his own conclusions and proves himself in a spectacular example of question-begging and circular logic. It's exactly wrong in almost every particular. One is tempted to scream "[citation needed]" and send him back to his desk with an "F". It's such a big bucket 'o fail in fact, one wonders how one could be so off the beam without doing it deliberately.

This article has become my new benchmark for atheist-buttery.

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50. Comment #160367 by TearsInTheRain on April 14, 2008 at 2:04 am

 avatarWhat's the sound of one hand clapping? This "article".

As many others above have said, it's clear he hasn't read, or maybe just understood, TGD, with reference to RD's views on religious education.

But most importantly, he never considers the other side to the argument. Religion can be inspiring, but are you seriously asking us to believe that without it, these great artists throughout time would've been stifled? It's RD's 'Mother of all burkas' argument, Unweaving The Rainbow rhetoric, etc.

What a load of old tosh.

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