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Monday, April 21, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document If God Is Dead, Who Gets His House?

by Sean McManus, New York Magazine

http://nymag.com/news/features/46214/

The fastest-growing faith in America is no faith at all. And now some atheists think they need a church.



(Photo: Frank Schwere)

It seems unlikely that many of the 850 or so people at the Society for Ethical Culture on a recent Saturday night believed that God was still extant. But evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins, author of The God Delusion and possibly the most famous atheist in the world, was not taking any chances. He gave a PowerPoint presentation driving home that religion does not meet any of the standards of basic scientific inquiry, before casually flicking away a few of His last crutches. Doesn't God provide people some solace? asked an audience member. "Isn't that a little childish?" Dawkins replied. "Just because something is comforting doesn't mean it's true." Then someone asked about death, and Dawkins quoted Mark Twain: "I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born."

The room erupted in loud applause. God had definitely left the building—if he were ever here at all. Dawkins and his colleagues had helped to produce a kind of atheist big bang, a new beginning. But what kind of new structures might evolve?

The Society for Ethical Culture was formed in 1877, eighteen years after Charles Darwin published On the Origin of Species and made the religious universe wobble on its axis. But godlessness can be a little scary, even for an atheist. Ethical Culture's imposing 1910 edifice on Central Park speaks to its patrons' wealth, as well as their concern that society might fall apart if it didn't have a church. But for all the grandeur of its secular cathedral, Ethical Culture peaked at maybe 6,000 members, with only about 3,000 today.

Now, once again, nonbelievers have a fresh sense of mission. The fastest-growing faith in the country is no faith at all. The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life released the results of its "Religious Landscape" survey in February and found that 16 percent of Americans have no religious affiliation. The number is even greater among young people: 25 percent of 18- to 29-year-olds now identify with no religion, up from 11 percent in a similar survey in 1986. For most of its modern history, atheism has existed as a kind of civil-rights movement. Groups like American Atheists have functioned primarily as litigants in the fight for church-state separation, not as atheist social clubs. "Atheists are self-reliant, self-sufficient, independent people who don't feel like they need an organization," says Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheists for the past thirteen years. "They're so independent that if they want to get involved, they usually don't join an organization—they start their own."

The quartet of best-selling authors who have emerged to write the gospel of New Atheism—Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, Christopher Hitchens, and Dawkins (the Four Horsemen, as they are now known)—has succeeded in mainstreaming atheism in a nation that is still overwhelmingly religious and, in the process, catalyzed a reexamination of atheistic raison d'être. But for some atheist foot soldiers, this current groundswell is just a consciousness-raising stop on the evolutionary train, the atheist equivalent of the Stonewall riots. For these people, the Four Horsemen have only started the journey. Atheism's great awakening is in need of a doctrine. "People perceive us as only rejecting things," says Ken Bronstein, the president of a local group called New York City Atheists. "Everybody wants to know, 'Okay, you're an atheist, now what?' "

So some atheists are taking seriously the idea that atheism needs to stand for things, like evolution and ethics, not just against things, like God. The most successful movements in history, after all—Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc.—all have creeds, cathedrals, schools, hierarchies, rituals, money, clerics, and some version of a heavenly afterlife. Churches fill needs, goes the argument—they inculcate ethics, give meaning, build communities. "Science and reason are important," says Greg Epstein, the humanist chaplain of Harvard University. "But science and reason won't visit you in the hospital."

Many atheist sects are experimenting with building new, human-centered quasi-religious organizations, much like Ethical Culture. They aim to remove God from the church, while leaving the church, at least large parts of it, standing. But this impulse is fueling a growing schism among atheists. Many of them see churches as part of the problem. They want to throw out the baby and the bathwater—or at least they don't see the need for the bathwater once the baby is gone.

On a recent chilly Friday night, a few dozen members of the City Congregation for Humanistic Judaism were gathered downstairs at the Village Community School on West 10th Street for Shabbat. For them, this is a monthly ritual that includes lighting candles and singing Jewish songs that have been carefully excised of a deity. "Where is my light?" asks the song "Ayfo Oree." "My light is in me." According to the congregation's leader, the humanist rabbi Peter Schweitzer, who wrote much of the secular Shabbat service, as well as the lyrics and verse for the congregation's life-cycle events like weddings, funerals, and bar and bat mitzvahs, Judaism is mostly a culture—religion is just one component. So he simply takes a red pen to the God parts. "We offer a different door in," says Schweitzer. "One that doesn't ask you to compromise your lack of beliefs."

The oxymoron of atheist orthodoxy.

Schweitzer tells me that Humanistic Judaism was founded in the early sixties by a former Reform rabbi from Michigan named Sherwin Wine. Wine, Schweitzer explains, coined the term ignostic—you're never going to know what God is, so why waste your time worrying about it? "God is a construct of the mind," he says. "Maybe you get there. Maybe you don't."

Schweitzer sees Humanistic Judaism as an obvious extension of a North American Jewry that is already highly secular—one that for decades has made "the deli a more significant cultural force than the synagogue." Many secular Jews continue to feel a strong connection to their cultural roots. "Jews need a place to go, especially during high holidays, where they don't have to check reason at the door," he says. "This is honest religion. A real gift."

After Shabbat, I talked to a retired philosophy professor, Marvin Kohl, an expert on Bertrand Russell, who admitted, reluctantly, that he believes in God. "I like the intellectual side," he says of the meetings. Before the night was over, a speaker from Jews for Racial and Economic Justice gave a talk about affordable housing. Then Schweitzer reminded the congregation that it needs new office space. There aren't enough members to afford a synagogue.

Atheist orthodoxy for the most part has been an oxymoron, partly because atheist leaders have tended toward a certain eccentricity. Before the Four Horsemen arrived, the face of atheism in this country belonged to Madalyn Murray O'Hair—"Mad Madalyn"—the pugnacious founder of American Atheists who disowned her son when he became a Baptist preacher and publicly pronounced it a "postnatal abortion." Angry and overweight, she was the muse of daytime-talk-show host Phil Donohue and a speechwriter for Larry Flynt. In 1964, Life magazine crowned her "the most hated woman in America." O'Hair was murdered and dismembered, allegedly by her office manager, David Roland Waters, in 1995, but this wasn't discovered until six years later, prompting speculation in the meantime that she had fled to the South Pacific with piles of atheist loot. January 2001 signaled a low point in contemporary atheist history. The same month Waters led police to the remains of the woman who successfully fought to end prayer in public schools, a Pew survey found that only 19 percent of Americans thought schools should avoid prayer or similar reflection.

Orthodox or not, for many traditional atheists, the word church is taboo, even if God is definitely not in residence. When Tim Gorski, a Texas physician, approached Paul Kurtz, an influential atheist who now chairs the Center for Inquiry, an atheist think tank, about his plans to start the North Texas Church of Freethought in the nineties, Kurtz discouraged him, on the grounds that atheists don't need church. And about ten years ago, American Atheists turned down Gorski's bid to sign on to an atheist advertisement published in USA Today. "Individuals and organizations could put their names on the ad. Churches could not," Ellen Johnson wrote me in an e-mail, while insisting that American Atheism's "eleventh commandment" is to never criticize or rebuke kindred organizations. "Since they were technically a church, we said no."

Gorski believes that a church is not necessarily God's house. It belongs, first, to the people. Many atheists, he says, misunderstand why people go to church in the first place. "It isn't the specific doctrines," he says. "[Church] binds people together and relates them to one another and gives them each a personal, private, and, of course, quite subjective understanding of themselves and their world."

"Every service is different," says Gorski. "For example, we created a serial feature called 'Moment of Science,' where we look at something recent or not so recent but something from science that informs our everyday experience. Economists tell us that if our neighbors live in nicer houses, we're unhappy. We share this with members, so that next time they're unhappy, they can think about why and hopefully change that."

Atheism's bitterest schisms, no surprise, were often formed in church. Gorski says he grew up, uneventfully, as a Catholic. "I've got no ax to grind," he says. But at a meeting of the New York City Atheists in January, two former Jehovah's Witnesses recounted a childhood rooted in lies and indoctrination. The young woman, who used a pseudonym for fear of never being able to speak to her parents again, told the audience that her father would hide her National Geographic. Ellen Johnson explains it this way: "Our members have left religion and don't want any part of that."

Additionally, many atheists see the challenge of tearing down the pillars of organized religion as far from over—just check the numbers of Americans who don't believe in evolution, they say. And that work—of arguing, of reeducation, of fighting discrimination against nonbelievers—should take precedence over any kind of organization-building.

What are the Four Horsemen doing for the movement they helped ignite?

As a political strategy, however, that may be shortsighted. Greg Epstein, who like Schweitzer is a student of Humanistic Judaism, is perhaps the most outspoken voice for humanism in the United States and has made waves among atheists by arguing that the militancy of the Four Horsemen could derail an otherwise powerful movement. When I met the 31-year-old Epstein for breakfast in a Soho restaurant last month, he told me he's writing a book called Good Without God, due out next year. "Most nonreligious people are not anti-religious," he says, and he's got the numbers to prove it. Epstein says that when he arrived at Harvard as the assistant humanist chaplain in 2004, there were just a handful of organized nonbelievers and no Website. Now he has a mailing list of over 3,000 and sponsors popular conferences featuring big-ticket atheists like Salman Rushdie, E. O. Wilson, and Steven Pinker. This month, he's presenting Greg Graffin, co-founder of the punk band Bad Religion, who is also a lecturer on life sciences at UCLA, with a lifetime achievement award in humanism. I asked Epstein whether atheists need a church. "I'm saying we need to get organized," he responds. "But what I view as organization still has pleasant disorganization. No humanist will accept authority for authority's sake. It's not in our makeup. If anyone came up and said, 'This is the rule, this is the humanist dogma, and I can tell you based on my authority what the creed is,' we'd throw them out with the trash. There's a difference between building a community and building an atheist regime."

In February, Epstein spoke to members of the Society for Ethical Culture to try to light a fire under an assembly whose numbers have been dwindling for decades. Founded by Felix Adler, the son of a rabbi, to drive social-justice initiatives and promote good without God, Ethical Culture walks like a church and talks like a church—congregants sit in pews, rise to sing hymns, and pass around a collection plate. But at one of their Sunday-morning meetings in January, their Senior Leader, in a very unchurchlike fashion, cited agnosticism as the only intellectually defensible religious position. More to the point, Epstein is eyeing the group's building as a prototype for the church of New Humanism. Modeled on a Greco-Roman coliseum, Ethical Culture has semi-circular pews to promote conversation and a low stage designed to minimize the distance between leader and congregation. "I want to build big, beautiful buildings like Ethical Culture in every big city in America," says Epstein. Unfortunately, his organization only brings in $200,000 a year. And while that's up from $28,000 four years ago, it's not enough to build a New Humanist church in Cambridge, Massachusetts, let alone Central Park West.

The Four Horsemen haven't completely turned their back on the movement they've helped to ignite. In addition to working on a children's book about evolution to be published in 2009, the bicentennial of Darwin's birth, Richard Dawkins has launched his Web-based out campaign to encourage atheists to come out of the closet. In lieu of a rainbow flag, he sells T-shirts with the scarlet letter A. Sam Harris, who says playing the victim is the wrong approach, is starting something called the Reason Project, bringing entertainers into the movement to further atheism's passage into the mainstream. Celebrity atheists like Bill Maher, Ian McKellen, and Julia Sweeney, whose one-woman show Letting Go of God, is a big hit at atheist conferences, have been vital to the renewed energy behind the movement. "Nobody is satisfied with the profusion of groups and meetings," says Harris. "My starting yet another organization is unhelpful on that front."

At this point, the movement can't even agree on a name. Christopher Hitchens, author of God Is Not Great, prefers the term anti-theist because he's entertained the possibility that God exists and finds the prospect frightening, the spiritual equivalent of living in North Korea. Daniel Dennett continues to promote the term bright, which, he has said, is "modeled very deliberately and very consciously on the homosexual adoption of the word gay." (In the first chapter of God Is Not Great, Hitchens dismisses the term as conceited.) And Sam Harris, brash young scientist that he is, triggered a minor revolt last fall at the Atheist Alliance International Conference in Crystal City, Virginia, when he lashed out against the term atheist, disparaging those who identify with a negation. "It reverberated in atheist circles as a sacrilege," Harris told me. "But what's worse is adopting language that was placed on us by religious people. We don't feel the need to brand ourselves non-astrologers or non-racists."

Dennett sees value in atheism's great awakening, in the energy and money that come from organizing, but he counsels caution. "The last thing atheists want to see is their rational set of ideas yoked up with the trappings of a religion," he says. "We think we can do without that." Even Richard Dawkins is not one to reject certain memes based on their churchly pedigree. He calls himself a "cultural Christian," admitting that he likes to sing Christmas carols as much as the next guy. But there's a limit to his tolerance of religion. He can see the tactical virtues of making temporary alliances with religion—to "hold hands with religious people" when it comes to making the case for important causes like teaching evolution in the classroom. But there are definite limits. "In the larger war against supernaturalism, frankly, it doesn't help to fraternize with the enemy," he says.

Comments 1 - 50 of 106 |

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1. Comment #165600 by Elles on April 21, 2008 at 7:15 pm

 avatarIt's about time somebody FINALLY pointed out that "atheist orthodoxy" is an oxymoron. I propose that we send the Atheist Inquisition after anybody who uses the term from now on.

Other Comments by Elles

2. Comment #165603 by gruebait on April 21, 2008 at 7:42 pm

 avatar"But science and reason won't visit you in the hospital."

arrgh! The irony! It burns!

Other Comments by gruebait

3. Comment #165604 by akado on April 21, 2008 at 8:09 pm

 avatarthe idea for an athiest church is one of the stupidiest thing I ever heard -_-;
and making creeds is worse as in what to think about!
we are free thinkers that want to ask questions and if told this is true and what we should hold dear it might as well be a religion!
it will end up like this lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPz_DA0QDxc
though I am for the anti-theist name ^^
though here is what should(and hopefully ewill) happen.
we will get all those together that realize all religion is wrong and group tpogether for the one reason to raise awareness and promote reason to those kept from it
we are going to get all people that are not totally brainwashed the info about what religion really is especially with the internet now avialable.
and it will spread and spread
then we will get a mass majority of atheist to which something amazing will happen
we will no longer be atheist
we will be PEOPLE! =o
and not athesit
and no need for such an organized group anymore........

Other Comments by akado

4. Comment #165609 by mmurray on April 21, 2008 at 9:09 pm

 avatar

"Science and reason are important," says Greg Epstein, the humanist chaplain of Harvard University. "But science and reason won't visit you in the hospital."


No friends and family visit you in the hospital. Science and reason are just there increase you chance of getting out alive.

What is it with the `humanist chaplain' tag? Why not just call him a counsellor and be done with it?

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

5. Comment #165610 by theantitheist on April 21, 2008 at 9:09 pm

Careful people if we start becoming a self defined group it may all go wrong.

Look at the gays! 100 years ago they were small individuals, now there communities that want to 1) Destroy the family 2) Cause Earthquakes in Iran 3) Cause the Easter Bunny to allow American Soldiers to be killed overseas 4) Remove Morals from everyday life and 5) Bring about the apocolypse. AND this is all just in their spare time!!! A bigger target attracts more mud, so why make a movement out of it when we can slowly just enlighten future generations (as it seems to be working)

For the same reason why Sam Harris wants to get rid of the label Atheist, lets not try to define ourselves by our disbeliefs. It's just ridicoulous and I am sure 99% of rational people would take a step back from this.

Other Comments by theantitheist

6. Comment #165611 by 82abhilash on April 21, 2008 at 9:14 pm

There is no need for a new monoculture to replace religion. Any useful function of this fiction can (or already has been) taken over by other institutions. The rest is all bunk that needs to be put in a museum, to remind us how stupid we where.

Other Comments by 82abhilash

7. Comment #165614 by JemyM on April 21, 2008 at 9:35 pm

 avatarFirst, unrelated, but: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeSFNhnTvWw :D

Now, I say, this is serious. Do not laugh at this. I do disagree that "atheism" is a label that is needed, but a secular church will eventually be necessary.

People here have left church because it preaches bad morals, discrimination of women and homosexuals, irrationality, believing things blindly without evidence, attitudes against science and knowledge. They have stood for a religious apartheid, segregation and indoctrination of children. They hold up an open conflict about whom's mythology is best. This have lead many to lost "faith" in church itself and many answer this by going their own way.

After reading Nietzsche's "God is Dead" and Daniel Dennett's "Breaking the Spell" I am now convinced that simply taking down church without looking what's inside is bad for society as a whole.

You see, since the beginning of humanity, religion fulfilled the important role to keep society together. This is a fact that anyone who spent some time with history and social sciences must admit.

Officially the religious institutions stands for:
1. Gathering and distribution of welfare to the needy
2. Taking care of the sick and the weak and welcome the outcasts
3. Fighting society problems like drugs and poverty
4. A community that keeps people together and fights segregation
5. Recognizing the stages of life (birth, confirmation, marriage, funeral)
6. Dealing with pain and sorrow after tragic events
7. A focus on people's feelings in an easy to understand language
8. A spokesperson for morals with focus on compassion, self-control, the value of helping others etc.

Imagine everyone abandoned church tomorrow!
1. Try to come up with current secular alternatives that covers all points above. Your alternatives must be accessible, well known and local so that even the most clueless knows about them (they are the ones who need it the most).
2. It would be in the interest of a state to support a such alternative (consider things like secular graveyards etc).
3. A secular moral teaching is necessary to work for glueing society together, prevent segregation and create social misery.

Other Comments by JemyM

8. Comment #165616 by CruciFiction on April 21, 2008 at 10:15 pm

I've had just about enough of Greg Epstein. I'd prefer he find God so he might just go away and preach his crap elsewhere.

But for a real good time, check out this preacher in the Phillipines who says he knows for certain that:

"Atheists dead or alive will be cast into the lake of fire"

http://youtube.com/watch?v=S7SIQaArlMc

Other Comments by CruciFiction

9. Comment #165617 by mmurray on April 21, 2008 at 10:43 pm

 avatar
You see, since the beginning of humanity, religion fulfilled the important role to keep society together. This is a fact that anyone who spent some time with history and social sciences must admit.

It only keeps society together if everybody has the same religion. If not it is a very nasty way of keeping people at each other's throats. In any case the fact that something was popular since long ago is not a good reason to continue with it. Consider: infanticide, cannibilism, oppression of women, slavery, trepanning ...


Officially the religious institutions stands for:
1. Gathering and distribution of welfare to the needy
2. Taking care of the sick and the weak and welcome the outcasts
3. Fighting society problems like drugs and poverty
4. A community that keeps people together and fights segregation
5. Recognizing the stages of life (birth, confirmation, marriage, funeral)
6. Dealing with pain and sorrow after tragic events
7. A focus on people's feelings in an easy to understand language
8. A spokesperson for morals with focus on compassion, self-control, the value of helping others etc.


All these have better secular replacements already. Better because the people involved don't have silly ideas but are practical and want to get on with solving the problem.

1. There are secular organisations eg Smith Family in Australia. But really this should be a government job.

2. Universal health care and welfare.

3. What like the Catholic Churches homophobic approach to AIDS/HIV ?

4. Like in Northern Ireland I guess ?

5. http://www.civilcelebrants.com.au/

6. Professional trained councillors. Better than having to listen to tortured christian discussions about why God loves us but also lets shit happen.

7. See 6.

8. Like the Pope whose solution to AIDS/HIV and human overpopulation is that we all stop having sex. His clergyman have amply demonstrated what happens
when you thwart basic human drives like that. I'll swap him for Steve Zara or MPhil anyday.


Imagine everyone abandoned church tomorrow!



Most of us in Europe, UK, Australia, Canada etc have already abandoned church. Come on in the waters fine.

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

10. Comment #165620 by Artful_Dodger on April 21, 2008 at 11:01 pm

It seems that the "atheist faith" meme is alive and well. Soon quasi-religious rituals, Sunday Schools, hymns, discipleship programmes, baptisms, "commandments" and excommunication for lapsed atheists and atheists found fraternising with religious believers. It'll be interesting to see how many childen, so "churched" will continue in the "faith of their fathers". I suspect this will ultimately only serve to empty the pews of these God-less churches and fill those of God-centred churches. "Reason" is wonderful as a servant, but pretty vacuuous as an object of "worship".

Other Comments by Artful_Dodger

11. Comment #165622 by JemyM on April 21, 2008 at 11:34 pm

 avatarmmurray, you attacked every point I made without even consider what I said. That's NOT reason!

It only keeps society together if everybody has the same religion. If not it is a very nasty way of keeping people at each other's throats. In any case the fact that something was popular since long ago is not a good reason to continue with it. Consider: infanticide, cannibilism, oppression of women, slavery, trepanning ...


Which is why HUMANITY needs to be the center of a such institution.

1. There are secular organisations eg Smith Family in Australia. But really this should be a government job.


Which means that there's currently no widely recognized secular alternative.

2. Universal health care and welfare.


Do not welcome outcasts. Piling money on people do not cure segregation.

3. What like the Catholic Churches homophobic approach to AIDS/HIV ?


No, I said drugs and poverty, not sex.

4. Like in Northern Ireland I guess ?


It should be obvious to you that all the current religions failed when the world grew smaller. Humanity, not a specific faith/esoteric knowledge/doctrine etc needs to be the center of a such institution. Staying OPEN instead of EXCLUSIVE is the cure for segregation.

5. http://www.civilcelebrants.com.au


That's a start. Now the rest of the world?

6. Professional trained councillors. Better than having to listen to tortured christian discussions about why God loves us but also lets shit happen. 7. See 6.


Many countries still summons a priests instead of secular councillors, even highly secular Sweden. There's no obvious alternative to this at the moment.

8. Like the Pope whose solution to AIDS/HIV and human overpopulation is that we all stop having sex. His clergyman have amply demonstrated what happens
when you thwart basic human drives like that. I'll swap him for Steve Zara or MPhil anyday.


Mahatma Gandhi, Malcolm X and Martin Luther King showed the power of fighting your fears for a non-violent solutions to oppression. Fighting ones fear for the unknown is the most important self-control there is, and frankly, even liberal countries needs more of that.

The christian fight against sex is irrational since it's not based on reason.
Consider instead knowledge about drives that are really dangerous: Hate. Drug-abuse. Xenophobia. Tribalism. Knowledge instead of suppression is the key word here. Knowledge have a greater chance to work than suppressing.

And the value of having compassion and promoting the value of helping people is not a bad thing.

Most of us in Europe, UK, Australia, Canada etc have already abandoned church. Come on in the waters fine.


I disagree. I see a society divided with growing segregation and mistrust. I see a world where isolation and ignorance is growing and more and more live alone and gets forgotten.

Other Comments by JemyM

12. Comment #165623 by Phasic on April 21, 2008 at 11:43 pm

 avatarPrimates just can't get past that group psychology stuff, hey?

"But science and reason won't visit you in the hospital."

arrgh! The irony! It burns!


Well-spotted!

Other Comments by Phasic

13. Comment #165625 by leodavinci on April 22, 2008 at 12:15 am

 avatar"But science and reason won't visit you in the hospital."

Give me a well trained doctor over a priest/comfort blanket any day.

Other Comments by leodavinci

14. Comment #165626 by epeeist on April 22, 2008 at 12:24 am

 avatarComment #165620 by Artful_Dodger
It seems that the "atheist faith" meme is alive and well.
You are David Robertson and I claim my £5.

Other Comments by epeeist

15. Comment #165627 by IanLowe on April 22, 2008 at 12:39 am

 avatarPersonally, I have always felt that Humanism presents the quasi-religious side of Atheism.

Here in Scotland, the Humanist Society has been involved in producing educational materials for classroom use, and has meetings every few sundays for the social element.

Atheism doesn't have a moral code, but Humanism does - just one that's derived from compassion and humanity rather than a supernatural bogey man.

Other Comments by IanLowe

16. Comment #165628 by Vaal on April 22, 2008 at 12:44 am

 avatarCan I have the Vatican please.

Other Comments by Vaal

17. Comment #165629 by Quetzalcoatl on April 22, 2008 at 12:46 am

 avatarArtful Dodger said-

It seems that the "atheist faith" meme is alive and well. Soon quasi-religious rituals, Sunday Schools, hymns, discipleship programmes, baptisms, "commandments" and excommunication for lapsed atheists and atheists found fraternising with religious believers. It'll be interesting to see how many childen, so "churched" will continue in the "faith of their fathers". I suspect this will ultimately only serve to empty the pews of these God-less churches and fill those of God-centred churches. "Reason" is wonderful as a servant, but pretty vacuuous as an object of "worship".


I say:

Troll

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

18. Comment #165634 by mmurray on April 22, 2008 at 1:00 am

 avatar
Which is why HUMANITY needs to be the center of a such institution.


Hi

I don't disagree with that but I am not sure what you are looking for besides government run organisations ? Or if you are sceptical of that private organisations contracted to do the same jobs. I don't think there is any need for some kind of secular church which was what I thought you were arguing for ?

By the way its not really relevant but I never thought of Malcolm X as non-violent. wikipedia gives this quote

"The time for you and me to allow ourselves to be brutalized nonviolently has passed. Be nonviolent only with those who are nonviolent to you. And when you can bring me a nonviolent racist, bring me a nonviolent segregationist, then I'll get nonviolent. But don't teach me to be nonviolent until you teach some of those crackers to be nonviolent."

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

19. Comment #165637 by AllanW on April 22, 2008 at 1:02 am

Jemym; thanks for those thought-provoking words; I'm sure they were sincere. Yet before accepting them I need a little more explanation.

The three problems I have with your posts (the original one and the reply to mmurray) are;

1. A number of phrases the meaning of which I just don't understand.
2. A number of points that I believe are wrong in fact.
3. A number of wildly assertive projections that, for me, miss the marks they aim for.

Problem one is characterised by;

'They have stood for a religious apartheid, segregation and indoctrination of children.'
'Which is why HUMANITY needs to be the center of a such institution.'
'Do not welcome outcasts. Piling money on people do not cure segregation.'
'Staying OPEN instead of EXCLUSIVE is the cure for segregation.'

Jemym please help me out and explain these sentences a little more. I do not mean to belittle your writing skills in the slightest (we all have problems there!) and the lack of understanding is, I'm sure, all on my part.

Problem two is characterised by;
'religion fulfilled the important role to keep society together.'

I'm sorry but I don't think this is true. Human society has developed over hundreds of thousands of years from our common ancestor with other primates; religions, in this timescale, are a recent invention. How did our distant ancestors cohere without religion? They evidently did and I'm not anthropologist enough to detail it for you here but religion was not it.

Problem three is the largest problem I have and is evidenced by;
'but a secular church will eventually be necessary.'
'Officially the religious institutions stands for:' then a list.
'so that even the most clueless knows about them (they are the ones who need it the most).'
'It would be in the interest of a state to support a such alternative'
'A secular moral teaching is necessary to work for glueing society together, prevent segregation and create social misery.'
'Humanity, not a specific faith/esoteric knowledge/doctrine etc needs to be the center of a such institution.'
'Fighting ones fear for the unknown is the most important self-control there is, and frankly, even liberal countries needs more of that.'
'Knowledge instead of suppression is the key word here. Knowledge have a greater chance to work than suppressing.'
'I see a society divided with growing segregation and mistrust. I see a world where isolation and ignorance is growing and more and more live alone and gets forgotten.'

I'm sorry but I personally need a lot more evidence and information before I'll accept even one of those assertions. They are not self-evident; they do not conform to some data that I have from my own society. And maybe this is the problem here (I hope I'm not guilty of projection or being too mean); Jemym you seem to be drawing conclusions from your own experience and viewpoints that do not bear wider application. It seems to me you have the kernel of an idea but need to spend a great deal of time developing and most importantly testing your views and data against reality before being confident enough to present it in more detail. Should this be possible I for one would welcome this more robust viewpoint as it addresses the important topic of our future.

Other Comments by AllanW

20. Comment #165640 by Philip1978 on April 22, 2008 at 1:05 am

 avatarI must have been out having a cup of tea when they were teaching this "atheist faith" business, I don't suppose anyone could fill me in the basics could they?

Artful, this is really difficult isn't it, you really don't understand what it is to have no faith and I honestly think you need to learn more about it.

You cannot believe in atheism, not in the same way as a person can with religion - you can believe in god for there is supposedly something to worship - what on Earth is there to worship in a complete lack of belief in gods?

I think many people have gone blue in the face to explain this very simple fact to you, please take it under consideration next time you type something like atheist faith, like the gods, no such thing exists!


Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

21. Comment #165641 by beebhack on April 22, 2008 at 1:05 am

"Atheist orthodoxy"

What would a heterodox atheist look like?

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22. Comment #165649 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on April 22, 2008 at 1:29 am

So some atheists are taking seriously the idea that atheism needs to stand for things, like evolution and ethics, not just against things, like God. The most successful movements in history, after all�"Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc.�"all have creeds, cathedrals, schools, hierarchies, rituals, money, clerics, and some version of a heavenly afterlife. Churches fill needs, goes the argument�"they inculcate ethics, give meaning, build communities. "Science and reason are important," says Greg Epstein, the humanist chaplain of Harvard University. "But science and reason won't visit you in the hospital."

Why is it that Atheism doesn't stand for anything again? Oh that's right, because it isn't anything. Every time I read stories like this I cringe. Stop with the Americanising, the summer camping, support-grouping of Atheism. Why not set up a church for ARacists etc.

Other Comments by ThoughtsonCommonToad

23. Comment #165655 by Ygern on April 22, 2008 at 1:44 am

Atheist Church ?!?

I am sorely tempted to hit my own head, but Reason prevents me.

*sighs*

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24. Comment #165656 by DamnDirtyApe on April 22, 2008 at 1:45 am

How can a word that means the exact opposite of theism be quasi-religious?

I think they're confusing it with Humanism. And Humanism is generally a great thing.

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25. Comment #165657 by Et in Arcadia ego on April 22, 2008 at 1:49 am

We don't need churches , we have universities .
If only we could kick the theologians out.
And I think somebody built our Stonehenge between France and Switzerland .

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26. Comment #165658 by rod-the-farmer on April 22, 2008 at 1:51 am

 avatarAn atheist church ? Count me out. One of the most attractive parts of disbelief for me was freeing up an hour or more of time every Sunday. Time better spent on hobbies, household chores, etc. Some of that time, I do admit, I have spent listening to music inspired by religion. Like Richard Dawkins, I do enjoy immensely things like Handels Messiah. But I would not attend religious services to hear it. An atheist church ? Aaaack. Sounds like dogma coming. Big trouble, right here in River CIty.

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

27. Comment #165661 by clodhopper on April 22, 2008 at 2:06 am

 avatarAtheist : Church

Fish : Bicycle

Other Comments by clodhopper

28. Comment #165662 by CJ22 on April 22, 2008 at 2:22 am

 avatarHappy clappy atheists? Other people's rules? Disaproving peer pressure? Screw that. It's woo-woo without the cassocks.

As for science and reason not visiting you in hospital, neither will Jebus. Science will however be the cause of you getting OUT of hospital. For hospital visits I'll rely on my mates.

Other Comments by CJ22

29. Comment #165663 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on April 22, 2008 at 2:24 am

Atheist : Church

Fish : Bicycle


Your Comment : Perspicacity

Nail : Head

Other Comments by ThoughtsonCommonToad

30. Comment #165665 by pewkatchoo on April 22, 2008 at 2:28 am

 avatarAaAAAAAaaaaAAArrrrrrgggggggggggghhhhhhhhhh!

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

31. Comment #165666 by Corylus on April 22, 2008 at 2:33 am

 avatar
Many atheists, he says, misunderstand why people go to church in the first place.

That a fact? There are lots of different reasons for going to church. People are individuals. Having said that, however, I always find it amusing that theists always gloss over one of the main reasons for going to church.

Dating.

There is always lots of talk about 'community' and 'time out for reflection'. No-one ever mentions the fact that church is a place you can go to and check out the local talent, and, bonus, not look obvious while you are doing it.

Also, due to the 'religion makes people moral' canard there is the reassurance that anyone you pick up is unlikely to boil your pet rabbit.

[Edit: Hello there Pewkatchoo nice to see you back *waves*]

Other Comments by Corylus

32. Comment #165667 by hungarianelephant on April 22, 2008 at 2:34 am

 avatarPhilip - Did they not give you the Atheist Handbook when you came over to the dark side? That is most remiss.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

33. Comment #165668 by lievemebe on April 22, 2008 at 2:35 am

The atheist church concept leaves me shivering in apoplexy.
I would like to see more reason, science, creativity and art being sponsored by governments the world over as a matter of urgency. Curiously such cornerstones of education have no relevance to atheism. Atheism is not anything.

Other Comments by lievemebe

34. Comment #165669 by Quetzalcoatl on April 22, 2008 at 2:37 am

 avatarCorylus-

there is the reassurance that anyone you pick up is unlikely to boil your pet rabbit.


Unless "God" tells them to.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

35. Comment #165671 by Goldy on April 22, 2008 at 2:39 am

Ummm, why don't they just go to the pub or something? Athiest church? What a silly concept!

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36. Comment #165672 by Corylus on April 22, 2008 at 2:39 am

 avatarYep Quetz. That is a factor that must be considered.

Other Comments by Corylus

37. Comment #165673 by LaTomate on April 22, 2008 at 2:46 am

 avatar
But science and reason won't visit you in the hospital.


Wow. This one almost knocked me off my chair. How downright stupid can you possibly get?

Other Comments by LaTomate

38. Comment #165676 by epeeist on April 22, 2008 at 3:11 am

 avatarTalk about a sign

The Folio Society have just offered me "Great Cathedrals of the Middle Ages". I think I will have Chartres.

Other Comments by epeeist

39. Comment #165682 by Duff on April 22, 2008 at 3:28 am

Jemym,
I'm sorry, but my reaction is...go away.

Other Comments by Duff

40. Comment #165684 by mmurray on April 22, 2008 at 3:30 am

 avatarSome good comments on the articles original site.

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

41. Comment #165686 by mixmastergaz on April 22, 2008 at 3:35 am

 avatarI'm just trying to imagine what an 'atheist church' service would be like. Who would officiate and what would qualify them? What would those in attendance do? Sing atheist songs? Listen to readings from the TGD et al?

I have no problem with atheist weddings and funerals etc. but gathering once a week (or whatever) seems pretty pointless. Maybe a political pressure group would be a better model than a church for providing a space for atheists to socialise and work towards common goals.

Also (perhaps more so in the States than here in the UK) there is the danger of atheism/humanism being treated under the law as a quasi-religion. And I'll stick my neck out a bit and add that being associated with religion or religious practices demeans atheism/humanism.

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42. Comment #165687 by Geoff on April 22, 2008 at 3:36 am

 avatar31. Comment #165666 by Corylus

...anyone you pick up is unlikely to boil your pet rabbit.


Hadn't heard it called that before!

Actually, I've got mixed feelings about the "atheist church" concept.

Initially I dismissed it as silly, as most on here have, but then I thought of the analogy of using methadone as a way of combating heroin addiction.

Other Comments by Geoff

43. Comment #165688 by hungarianelephant on April 22, 2008 at 3:36 am

 avatar31. Comment #165666 by Corylus on April 22, 2008 at 2:33 am
No-one ever mentions the fact that church is a place you can go to and check out the local talent, and, bonus, not look obvious while you are doing it.

Also, you get to use the line "Would you like to kneel on my hassock?"

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

44. Comment #165697 by AdrianT on April 22, 2008 at 3:58 am

 avatarWe already have a practically atheist church in the UK - the Church of England. Aren't such services, for the few who actually go there, about showing off the new hat / keeping up appearances etc?

The whole point is, I don't need to be told what to believe, like in a church. It's not "free thinking". It's babyish, and has a Nuremberg rally ring about it.

I'm all in favour of free thinkers getting together - social events, discussions, or for practical reasons, like how to take on religious misinformation, especially in areas wehere they are in a minority, but indeed once you start making 'churches' and singing praises... you are on the road to scientology.

Other Comments by AdrianT

45. Comment #165702 by clintonjason on April 22, 2008 at 4:14 am

 avatarhow about an atheist mosque instead? :)

Other Comments by clintonjason

46. Comment #165703 by Steve Zara on April 22, 2008 at 4:19 am

 avatarArtful-
"Reason" is wonderful as a servant, but pretty vacuuous as an object of "worship".


I asked my servant, Reason, to go find me some God to worship. He came back with nothing.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

47. Comment #165706 by j.mills on April 22, 2008 at 4:28 am

 avatarHere we are again. Atheist just means not believing in gods. It's entirely possible (if unlikely) to be an atheist who thinks evolution is wrong, or that the earth is flat, or that it's okay to have sex with children, like many a priest.

The characteristic that defines a group is the only characteristic necessarily shared by all members of the group. Atheists are at least as diverse as other groups. If some of us are humanists, then they're free to gather as humanists; if fascists, then let them gather as fascists. Nothing unites atheists beyond atheism - just look at the diversity of posts above. Can't found a church on nothing.

Other Comments by j.mills

48. Comment #165707 by hungarianelephant on April 22, 2008 at 4:28 am

 avatar45. Comment #165697 by AdrianT on April 22, 2008 at 3:58 am
We already have a practically atheist church in the UK - the Church of England. Aren't such services, for the few who actually go there, about showing off the new hat / keeping up appearances etc?

Well I haven't been in a number of years, but I used to be a server. This involved turning up at pretty much all the services, from the relatively popular to those with single-digit attendances. The lowest I remember was 4, and bear in mind this was in a pleasant Cheshire village with a real community nominally based around the church. You can imagine how bad things are for the CofE in other areas.

The really big ticket services - Midnight Mass and Christmas morning, possibly Easter - used to pack the church, standing room only. Most people seemed to be there purely out of a sense of tradition, and it's noticeable that over the last couple of years they can't even fill the building then. The majority of services were attended only by a few faithful. It's possible that they were there to show themselves to each other, but they seemed to be taking it seriously. And why in the world would you turn up at 8am on a Sunday when there are perfectly good services at ten to ten and 11?

Ten to ten was geared to, and relatively well attended by, families. On the whole, these also seemed to be people passing on a tradition. That left services like the twice monthly Communion. That's the only one where I got a distinct impression of fakery and false piety. Apart from the couples who realised they had to do this for a couple of months if they wanted to get married there, and would then never be seen again until their first child's christening, were a few Sunday besters, self-appointed pillars of the community and those who wanted to be. They'd number maybe a couple of dozen. Not particularly significant in the scale of things.

This is an n=1 sample, and years out of date, so should be taken with a pinch of salt, though I haven't seen much to convince me that it was unrepresentative.

Since I've moved to Ireland, I've seen a remarkably different pattern, at least outside the cities. Mass is very much part of people's lives. My (still Catholic) wife describes them as a "fashion parade" and refuses to go. (Her conversations with the invisible man take place in private, and the belief system is a la carte. I suspect she'll become a Buddhist eventually. But I digress.) It is noted and gossiped about if you don't turn up at least once a week. More particularly, it is a venue for people to meet and interact regularly. The only other remaining outlet in much of rural Ireland is the pub, and they are closing at a rate of around 5 a week.

It's easy to underestimate that factor when you live in Dublin, especially when you're the sort of person who never got anything out of the community aspect anyway. The article rather skirts around this issue, but it matters. If we want to remove the power of the church, we have to understand what people get out of it. And then somehow address it.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

49. Comment #165712 by Azven on April 22, 2008 at 5:06 am

 avatarI like religions and many religious people. I also like Star Trek and most Trekkers.

I like the stories, the moral dichotomies, the characters with super-powers, I even like the villains.

I still laugh at the believers (to their face) if they get too involved.


I don't want a church for Atheists any more than I want a church for Star Trek.

(Or should that be a [Nurse] Chappel)

Other Comments by Azven

50. Comment #165717 by Phadrus on April 22, 2008 at 5:30 am

 avatarI myself would like to have a "church" where atheists meet. It doens't have to be called a church, but a place where like minded people meet and refine what they believe in.

I would like to meet other atheists and talk to them and share our experiences not just in the non-belief field but in everyday life. A Sunday water-cooler, if you like. I don't feel that I have enough contact with my neighbors, enough communion (some would say) and I feel this is missing and could be put in place by a "local" meeting place.

As I understand it, there used to be local bars a long time ago. You could walk down to the corner and find it. It was a meeting place for people in the neighborhood. It would be nice to have that again.

I also agree with Sam Harris and Bill Maher who reject the term "atheist". I hate this term and cringe when people use it to describe me. I am never referred to as a non-child molester, or a non-fairiest or a non-unicorn person. I don't see why I should be branded with the term non-theist; atheist.

But the other terms for non-theist are equally cold and science-y; except "Bright" which does sound conceited to me; if you are not a "Bright" then you must be "non-bright". It may be true in a way, but that doesn't sound very nice to me.

Humanist, Rationalist, there is nothing wrong with these terms except they cold and unfeeling and leave me flat.

Does anyone else have a term for atheists that does not feel so rigid or hard? What about terms that are not in general use? Can anyone come up with any?

Other Comments by Phadrus
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