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3. Comment #175481 by Spinoza on May 5, 2008 at 1:42 pm
4. Comment #175508 by RSP on May 5, 2008 at 2:19 pm
"Despite the knocking it has received, reason is clearly not entirely impotent in the moral domain. We can reflect on our moral positions and, with a bit of effort, potentially revise them. An understanding of our moral intuitions, and the unconscious forces that fuel them, give us perhaps the greatest hope of overcoming them."5. Comment #175543 by Spinoza on May 5, 2008 at 2:58 pm
6. Comment #175558 by Cartomancer on May 5, 2008 at 3:31 pm
7. Comment #175562 by phiwilli on May 5, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Over and over the article, and apparently those it cites, refer to what "most people do," or what "most people think." What is the relevance of majority opinion, even huge majority opinion, to what is right? Or to anything else? Maybe most people (in the US, and maybe lots of other places outside western Europe, think evolution is false. So what? If surveys like those had been done in medieval times, or in tribal societies today, etc., I suspect the results would be rather different. So what? What if the investigators asked about witchcraft, or whether the sun orbits the earth, or . . .8. Comment #175569 by Cartomancer on May 5, 2008 at 3:56 pm
9. Comment #175586 by aquilacane on May 5, 2008 at 4:30 pm
10. Comment #175592 by Geoff on May 5, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Lets do a little study to see whether philosophy or science can help people to lead more moral lives.
Find two identical deserted islands. Strand a group of scientifically illiterate philosophers on one of them with five works of ethical philosophy. Strand a group of philosophically illiterate scientists on the other with five works of cognitive psychology. Check back at regular intervals to observe the moral progress or decline. First island to achieve a perfectly harmonious, maximally happy and productive society wins.
11. Comment #175622 by alovrin on May 5, 2008 at 6:14 pm
Anyone caught fondling Nietzche's Der Wille zur Macht or making paper hats from Chomsky is automatically disqualified.
You could set up a third island full of priests and theologians too, but it's probably wise not to give them one with a volcano on it, for fear of who they might decide to throw in.
12. Comment #175646 by Ascaphus on May 5, 2008 at 7:19 pm
...The conclusion is that in general the more removed we are from the consequences of our moral decisions, the easier it is to make them. In some ways this is a good thing...
13. Comment #175651 by MPhil on May 5, 2008 at 7:30 pm
Nietzche's Der Wille zur Macht
14. Comment #175690 by Don_Quix on May 5, 2008 at 9:56 pm
15. Comment #175695 by Cartomancer on May 5, 2008 at 10:13 pm
you should know there never was such a book by Nietzsche. That was a fabrication by his sister.It was going to be Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics, but just this once I thought I'd push the boat out and choose something a bit more modern - for the sake of those on here who prefer their philosophers in three piece suits rather than gathered robes. Quite what made me go for the mad Prussian with the moustache is anyone's guess though (unless his sister fabricated the moustache too...).
16. Comment #175699 by MPhil on May 5, 2008 at 10:38 pm
17. Comment #175701 by jwdink on May 5, 2008 at 10:44 pm
This is almost totally irrelevant to Ethics as a discipline. The foundations of what people often CALL "morality" is important, to be sure... But it sheds absolutely no light on normativity per se, and science journalism needs to stop pretending that it does. Scientists should indeed be investigating the biology and evolution of socio-cultural values, but leave the Ethics to the philosophers (at least, for now).
18. Comment #175707 by MPhil on May 5, 2008 at 11:09 pm
19. Comment #175710 by Spinoza on May 5, 2008 at 11:16 pm
I'd be curious to know what you mean by this. I thought, since Hume, it's been well established that there is no separate morality outside of what we "call" it. The question is not "is human nature the place to establish ethics?" (what else would be) but rather "what is the best way to examine human nature?" Are you denying that it's some sort of scientific endeavor?
Now, I'll grant that philosophy needs to step in to give that prescriptive/normative push, to decide whether stuff like "sanctity" is a separate moral motivator from "justice" or whether it's just an heuristic shortcut. But you seem to think that the science is useless. Can you explain?
20. Comment #175711 by RSP on May 5, 2008 at 11:19 pm
I have been taking the tests for fun. I have to say I do not understand how they derive meaningful data from these questions. Maybe it's just my gross inadequacy in statistics lol. But many of them seem so deliberately structured and made with language of either the far right, or left or nothing else. They are so vague it's really ambiguous a lot of the time. Not to mention they are almost all setup in emergency situations, where morality seems so incredibly capricious depending on important details that arent put forth.21. Comment #175713 by MPhil on May 5, 2008 at 11:36 pm
22. Comment #175714 by MPhil on May 5, 2008 at 11:37 pm
23. Comment #175717 by Spinoza on May 5, 2008 at 11:42 pm
24. Comment #175721 by Spinoza on May 5, 2008 at 11:50 pm
25. Comment #175730 by MPhil on May 6, 2008 at 12:03 am
26. Comment #175731 by Spinoza on May 6, 2008 at 12:06 am
27. Comment #175733 by epeeist on May 6, 2008 at 12:18 am
Please keep the conversation here. I, and I suspect a number of others, find it interesting. And if it isn't rational and clear thinking then I don't know what is.
(perhaps we should/could continue this on some sort of Messenger or Facebook chat?... I would be interested in engaging your scepticism about quasi and Cornell realism...)
28. Comment #175734 by MPhil on May 6, 2008 at 12:18 am
(perhaps we should/could continue this on some sort of Messenger or Facebook chat?... I would be interested in engaging your scepticism about quasi and Cornell realism...)
I'm not really sure what it tells us about morality per se... rather, it really only seems to shed light on why different people SAY different things are "moral" (ignoring entirely the question of who is right).
29. Comment #175739 by Spinoza on May 6, 2008 at 12:27 am
30. Comment #175741 by logical on May 6, 2008 at 12:40 am
31. Comment #175744 by MPhil on May 6, 2008 at 12:44 am
The assumption that investigation of moral talk and behaviour called moral (by some) can tell us about what morality qua moral judgments, dispositions and behaviour is (as you say), is, I think, not a valid assumption.
32. Comment #175747 by Spinoza on May 6, 2008 at 1:00 am
When people talk about moral problems, form and express opinions concerning them, make judgements on moral issues - that is part of what "morality" means.
There are situations and dimensions that can only be called moral - any question of right and wrong, of moral values etc. Any behaviour, any approach to these things falls under the category of "morality" in virtue of being an approach to moral problems, moral statements etc.
You make it seem as if you think only someone working out a second order and first order ethical theory with a coherent and applicable account of all the theoretical issues is doing something that falls under the category of "morality" at all. Why?
33. Comment #175763 by MPhil on May 6, 2008 at 2:07 am
That has not been established. That is to take some form of expressivism to be correct a priori. And that is certainly not justifiable a priori.
All you've said here is that moral values (rightness or wrongness) can only be called moral. And then you say that anything falls under that category in virtue of being an approach to problems involving rightness or wrongness.
But that's clearly circular, and doesn't establish anything with regard to when people really ARE talking about moral values, as distinguished from when they are merely indulging their preferences.
That is, the first case is clearly a case of moralizing talk on the part of a dogmatic idiot engaging in culturally inculcated hatred of that which is "different" (and called abominable).
The second points to something quite a lot more fundamental. If anything is wrong, murder is.
doesn't establish anything with regard to when people really ARE talking about moral values, as distinguished from when they are merely indulging their preferences.
I simply take it that the philosopher who does those things (in a well reasoned way) can be justified in telling the layman when their moral talk is, itself, wrong (and why).
34. Comment #175829 by Cartomancer on May 6, 2008 at 6:11 am
Perhaps the certainties of scholastic learning (if you refer to the content) were unwarranted certainties? And the murky depths of the 19th century (especially Neitzsche, who was -I think- very correct in his analyses of culture on the brink of modernity and post-modernity) perhaps got it entirely right that there are little certainties, but many social constructs, which comprise the murky depths that they laid bare.Yeah, that was kind of the joke... It's usually the medievals who are described as the murky ones
35. Comment #175836 by huzonfurst on May 6, 2008 at 6:24 am
About not putting the priests and theologians on an island with a volcano "for fear of who they might throw in" - what's your point? They're all priests and theologians, are they not?36. Comment #175840 by MPhil on May 6, 2008 at 6:27 am
37. Comment #175953 by Spinoza on May 6, 2008 at 9:23 am
Ever heard of "descriptive ethics"? Describing the phenomenon of morality.
I don't need to "establish" that there is a descriptive meaning of "moral" and "morality" as well - it's unquestionable. People ask themselves questions of "what is right and wrong" "what is moral" and/or take positions that attempt to answer these questions, or propose answers to them. This is a fact. You may call it as you like, but there is nothing wrong with calling that "morality", the "phenomenon of morality".
38. Comment #175991 by MPhil on May 6, 2008 at 10:25 am
You seem to not want to make a distinction between moral talk (which often involves things that have nothing to do with morality), and morality per se.
But that's exactly what's at issue here, so simply stating that "It is still true that everyone is actually talking about moral values." is kind of ridiculous. Especially given that I'm not a Realist.
No, they aren't actually necessarily talking about moral values. That CLEARLY implies some kind of infallibility in the moral mechanism, whatever it is. And that certainly cannot be right.
39. Comment #175994 by MPhil on May 6, 2008 at 10:28 am
40. Comment #176001 by jwdink on May 6, 2008 at 10:39 am
I'd be curious to know what you mean by this. I thought, since Hume, it's been well established that there is no separate morality outside of what we "call" it. The question is not "is human nature the place to establish ethics?" (what else would be) but rather "what is the best way to examine human nature?" Are you denying that it's some sort of scientific endeavor?
Hume established no such thing. In fact the IS/OUGHT Gap (Hume's Fork) establishes exactly the opposite.
You CANNOT derive an ought from an is.
...
Your last question strikes me as incoherent... but maybe there is something else you have in mind that wasn't conveyed directly.
You seem to have clearly and completely misunderstood me.
Secondly, all I said was that the work being done in moral psychology is not NECESSARILY dealing with morality, and that they need to be careful to note that.
The reason is exactly that philosophers have not ironed out just WHAT morality is.
1. Comment #175434 by Jack Rawlinson on May 5, 2008 at 12:10 pm
The questions about "killing one to save five" are also interesting. I remember doing some questionnaires which featured those questions and they certainly do give you pause. With reflection it's pretty easy to understand why it seems easier to sacrifice the single person when all you have to do is flick a switch and initiate a secondary series of events, rather than having to directly kill the person yourself. Similar "removal" makes it easier to be a meat-eater when you don't have to slaughter and prepare the animal yourself, or a supporter of war when you don't have to do the fighting yourself. There are countless other examples.
The "flick of a switch" example also powerfully illustrates one aspect of why guns are more dangerous weapons than, say, knives or baseball bats. To kill someone with a gun is not only much more physically simple, it can be done at one remove from the victim and it can be done with the minimum of effort. You do not have to get as up-close and personal with a gun as you do with a knife or a cudgel. You do not have to struggle. You do not have to face the possibility of having the bloody consequences of your action splashed all over your nice shirt, You don't have to look your victim in the eye and watch him die. And so on. It's no surprise that this factor in the gun control argument is usually overlooked or played down by gun control opponents.
The conclusion is that in general the more removed we are from the consequences of our moral decisions, the easier it is to make them. In some ways this is a good thing - it allows us to get on with our lives without endless agonising over every ethical choice - but in a crucial sense it is a bad thing, especially where our moral decisions affect others. Examples featuring death or injury make the point most powerfully and I think everyone should try to consider what their difficult moral choices really mean at root. You may only be flicking a switch, but you're still killing a man.
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