1. Comment #181236 by Diocletian on May 16, 2008 at 5:32 pm

A word to Senator Pelosi:
"You go girl!"

Thank goodness there are some in government who remember the principles upon which the US was based.

Other Comments by Diocletian

2. Comment #181237 by Skeptic Pete on May 16, 2008 at 5:33 pm

But what if I like my baby goat cooked in its mothers own milk?

Other Comments by Skeptic Pete

3. Comment #181240 by 10 on May 16, 2008 at 5:47 pm

Both of these [resolutions] would authorize a Ten Commandments weekend in order to recognize the Ten Commandments as the foundation of law in this country,"

Why can't they just celebrate a Ten Commandments weekend and let everyone else be? It's not illegal to make up holidays is it? If people enjoy the meme it will propagate.

...we need these passed

Because otherwise the Secular Police will come and crash our Ten Commandments Block Party?

...the Supreme Court has a Ten Commandments display

Just in case they forget them? This doesn't mean they support a national Ten Commandments Day. I'd hope. I suggest we start with a "no one breaks any laws afternoon" and see how that goes.

Other Comments by 10

4. Comment #181245 by Diacanu on May 16, 2008 at 6:18 pm

the Ten Commandments as the foundation of law in this country

Bull-fucking-shit.

The prospect of passing anything that respects our social values

Such as separation of church and state?

Other Comments by Diacanu

5. Comment #181246 by Serdan on May 16, 2008 at 6:18 pm

"Both of these [resolutions] would authorize a Ten Commandments weekend in order to recognize the Ten Commandments as the foundation of law in this country,"

The foundation of law?!

Let's have a look at them.

You shall have no other gods before me.
Riiight...

You shall not make for yourself an idol.
Riiight...

You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God.
Lulz.

Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.
ROFL!

Honor your father and mother.
Whatever.

You shall not murder.
Sounds good.

You shall not commit adultery.
Unless I want to.

You shall not steal.
Sounds good.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Yes, I shall.

You shall not covet your neighbor's [stuff].
It's none of your business what I covet.

So two out of ten. And this is supposed to be the foundation of law? Fucking retards.

Other Comments by Serdan

6. Comment #181249 by steveroot on May 16, 2008 at 6:39 pm

5. Comment #181246 by Serdan on May 16, 2008 at 6:18 pm

"Both of these [resolutions] would authorize a Ten Commandments weekend in order to recognize the Ten Commandments as the foundation of law in this country,"

The foundation of law?!

Let's have a look at them.
...
...
So two out of ten. And this is supposed to be the foundation of law? Fucking retards.

Don't be so hard on them. How were these goat milkers supposed to know that what someone was told by a *burning bush* would someday be mistaken for the founding principles of what could (under more favorable circumstances) be considered the most powerful nation on earth?
Ste5e

Other Comments by steveroot

7. Comment #181250 by SpacePup84 on May 16, 2008 at 6:40 pm

I thought these people were supposed to not follow the Old Testament? Why do they think it's fair to drag up the ten commandments and the "abomination" in Leviticus, and then to deny the rest of the rules given in the OT as irrelevant, as the NT supersedes the OT?

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8. Comment #181256 by riki on May 16, 2008 at 7:11 pm

I hope they do find new earth like planets soon. Then these nut jobs can fire up their Noah's Ark 2 spaceship and begin carving out their own little Christian paradise.

Other Comments by riki

9. Comment #181258 by Cartomancer on May 16, 2008 at 7:21 pm

I'm glad this woman has her priorities straight - introducing healthy vegetarian snacks to government canteens and an admirable devotion to civic nomenclature are both far more productive things to spend one's legislative efforts on than promoting two-millennium old ethical curiosities in the public sphere.

In fact she could spend the remainder of her term counting the House of Congress's supply of paperclips and she'd still be contributing more to the legal stability of the United States than these decalogue-toting jobsworths ever will.

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10. Comment #181259 by Quine on May 16, 2008 at 7:25 pm

Then these nut jobs can fire up their Noah's Ark 2 spaceship ...

Would that be the "B" ship along with the telephone sanitizers?

Seriously, you really think these nut jobs could work a spaceship?

Other Comments by Quine

11. Comment #181260 by Cartomancer on May 16, 2008 at 7:27 pm

Actually, come to think of it, why not let them have their snippets of exodus and leviticus plastered all over the walls, but instead of just the ten commandments make sure they have a smattering of the really crazy ones as well, just to balance things out?

That would get religious people thinking about the feeble pretense that they get their morals from scripture...

Other Comments by Cartomancer

12. Comment #181267 by Savior Self on May 16, 2008 at 7:55 pm

Why don't we just post the only set of rules that (according to the bible) god is on record as calling the Ten Commandments (Exodus 34). Then maybe all you secular lunatics will stop boiling all those baby goats in their mother's milk.

Other Comments by Savior Self

13. Comment #181268 by dragonfirematrix on May 16, 2008 at 8:11 pm

Well... we have the Christians in America trying to force their GD religion on people in America just like the Islamic are trying to force their GD religion on people.

There is a very simple answer to these Abrahamic religion problems. Very simply...

...JUST REMEMBER THAT THE TOILET BOWL HAS A FLUSH HANDLE. Religion in politics should have only one destination, which is the direction I just proposed.

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14. Comment #181273 by MelM on May 16, 2008 at 8:25 pm

An e-mail I sent back on April 3:

Judiciary Committee Chairman: Senator Leahy,

I'm writing to urge you not to support S.Res 483, "Ten Commandments Weekend".

This resolution is just more "Christian Nation" theocratic propaganda and certainly violates the wall-of-separation: it's religious preaching. Really, it's the people's job to preach (or not) and the Senate's job to protect our right to do it. For the Senate to get into the act of preaching is grossly outrageous.

If the Founders had wanted to create a theocracy, they had plenty of models to choose from--but they didn't do it; they created a secular government for very good reasons.

Thanks for your attention.
X
California

Here's what Americans United had to say:
http://blog.au.org/2008/05/13/lost-weekend-religious-right-seeks-twoday-ten-commandments-confab/

If members of Murray's church want to celebrate the Commandments and erect them for all to see, no one's going to stop them. He could even stick them up in his back yard or make tiny versions into paperweights. Be creative. Knock yourself out, Bill.

I walk right by a couple of churches on my way to Chinese take-out; there's plenty of room out front for 10 foot high "10 commandments" but there are none--not even little ones.

Where's the anti-slavery commandment?
What kind of divine wisdom is this? No commandment about treating everyone equally under the law and no commandment about not taking slaves? And why not something about the separation of church and state? Their imaginary friend could have done sooooooo much better; just think of the misery that could have so easily been saved.

They're un-American.
IMO, this 10 commandments crap is just a step toward making the bible the law of the land. Remember Huck who wanted to makeover the U.S. Constitution? Are these 'tards promoting a "Bill-Of-Rights Weekend"? No. This whole "Christian Nation" movement is un-American.

Liars For Jesus:
http://www.liarsforjesus.com/

Other Comments by MelM

15. Comment #181274 by Diocletian on May 16, 2008 at 8:27 pm

Why can't they just celebrate a Ten Commandments weekend and let everyone else be? It's not illegal to make up holidays is it? If people enjoy the meme it will propagate.

To do that successfully they would need beer. That's how St Patrick's Day and Cinco de Mayo made it on the calendar without an official endorsement from the government. After all, doesn't reading the 10 commandments sort of make you want to go out and get drunk?

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16. Comment #181280 by Caudimordax on May 16, 2008 at 8:35 pm

But Skeptic Pete has it right. WHICH ten commandments are they referring to?

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17. Comment #181281 by moderndaythomas on May 16, 2008 at 8:37 pm

And if it has anything to do with the cause of Christ or with social values or family values, it's just totally ignored

I come into contact with the Christian "higher ground" theme frequently. As if Christianity has it's own brand of values out of reach of all who don't pray before every meal.

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18. Comment #181283 by VrijzinnigMan on May 16, 2008 at 8:43 pm

Great! What good is it to just celebrate the ten commandments? Pretty soon they will insist that those who do not follow them be punished per God's instructions. Expect a lot of stoning to death! Texas will most surely lead the pack. I guess I better start thinking about moving.

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19. Comment #181284 by moderndaythomas on May 16, 2008 at 8:44 pm

Diocletian said;

After all, doesn't reading the 10 commandments sort of make you want to go out and get drunk?

Yes, drink beer and perhaps pull out the golden calf.
Oh, how would they feel if Ten Commandments week was followed by Golden Calf day?
There would be beer.

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20. Comment #181285 by Geodesic17 on May 16, 2008 at 8:47 pm

If these people ever get their way, I bet they will find out it is more than they bargained for. It would be a huge disaster. How can they be so ignorant of history? I don't understand how a person could be so dense and deluded.

Also, are they trying to bribe and please God by this stunt? How do they intend to enforce the 10 Commandments? Have they thought that far ahead or are they just trying to promote the rapture?

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21. Comment #181287 by MelM on May 16, 2008 at 8:49 pm

It has not escaped notice by some supporters of House Res 888 (the Declaration of Theocracy resolution) that, if passed, they could show up at state legislatures and point to it.

I quote from an important article by Chris Rodda:

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/2/6/212428/8596

On what grounds could anyone object to a school in their state having a religion week if the United States House of Representatives has designated it a religion week? Barton and Forbes even urge their audience to try to get their state legislatures to pass similar resolutions to reinforce this. That way, according to Barton, the response to any objection would be: "It's state law. You'll have a state law that designates the first week of May as faith in American history week." Co-host Green explains it like this: "When you get this type of thing passed, it opens the door for you to go to your local school district and encourage them to do something on this, and it allows for those teachers that have been wanting to get this curriculum into the classroom and teach it. There you go. It's a perfect way to do it." And if this isn't bad enough, Barton and Green even go as far as saying that the resolution itself -- with its 75 lie packed "Whereases" -- would be the perfect curriculum.

Don't think that RR resolutions are just harmless bullshit.

Other Comments by MelM

22. Comment #181304 by debaser71 on May 16, 2008 at 9:41 pm

"Strangely enough, the Supreme Court has a Ten Commandments display, but Congress so far will not budge on honoring them."

Hardly. More lying for Jesus.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/capital.asp

There are pictures too.

Other Comments by debaser71

23. Comment #181307 by shaunfletcher on May 16, 2008 at 9:49 pm

Its been shown again and again that the vast majority of practising christians dont know what the ten commandments are.

I always find it hard to believe but every time someone checks its true.

They just think that the commandments are 'dont kill or steal and love thy neighbour and other stuff like that'

Churches do not, on any account, want people to be presented with a list which, as noted above, contains 2 actual worthwhile prohibitions and a couple of arguable bits of life advice, and thats about it.

Id be pretty upset if the law consisted only of this lot.

Other Comments by shaunfletcher

24. Comment #181312 by RightWingAtheist on May 16, 2008 at 10:21 pm

steveroot said:
"How were these goat milkers supposed to know ..."

This sounds a little tribalistic to me. In the future, please address your comments to ALL makers of dairy products.

Other Comments by RightWingAtheist

25. Comment #181313 by room101 on May 16, 2008 at 10:25 pm

THIS guy is the son of atheist Murray-O'hare? Boy, where did she go wrong???!!!??

RE: shaunfletcher #23

I agree. What pisses me off the most, is if you asked this tard to name the 10 commandments (ala Stephen Colbert asking that pious councilman some time ago - priceless) I bet you dollars-to-doughnuts he couldn't do it...

Other Comments by room101

26. Comment #181314 by bucketchemist on May 16, 2008 at 10:33 pm

Hardly. More lying for Jesus.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/capital.asp

There are pictures too.

One of the friezes includes a representation of Mohamed. Should we be concerned?

Other Comments by bucketchemist

27. Comment #181323 by Barry Pearson on May 17, 2008 at 12:05 am

Caudimordax asked: ... WHICH ten commandments are they referring to?

Good question, and not just about "baby goat cooked in its mothers own milk"!

We know that there isn't simply a list of 10 commandments in the Bible. Probably many people don't know that there isn't a standard list of 10 commandments outside the bible. Jews, Protestants, and Catholics has slightly different lists. (The list at #181246 is the Protestant list).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_commandments

I wouldn't like to live in a society where the typical list provides the ONLY commandments. Apart from getting rid of most of them, I would like a few extra commandments: "do not rape"; "do not own slaves"; "do not abuse children"; "do not discriminate [on various grounds]"; etc. But ... you wouldn't get those out of the Old Testament, because God was in favour of those acts!

Other Comments by Barry Pearson

28. Comment #181335 by Raiko on May 17, 2008 at 12:56 am

The prospect of passing anything that respects our social values and the Christian heritage of the nation is extremely difficult.

This sentence needs correction:

The prospect of passing anything that respects ours, but ignores everyone else's social values, and that also ignores the secular foundation of the nation, is extremely difficult.


Now it works.

Other Comments by Raiko

29. Comment #181345 by pholt on May 17, 2008 at 2:02 am

Its been shown again and again that the vast majority of practising christians dont know what the ten commandments are.

For example, Stephen Colbert interviewing Congressman Lynn Westmoreland of Georgia.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1562658289653706925

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30. Comment #181349 by King of NH on May 17, 2008 at 2:28 am

I just had this conversation with my boss yesterday. Well, he yelled at me, to be honest, for supporting gay marriage even though it is against the bible, and therefore against the Christian-based American law. I asked him to give one law of our country, excepting 'blue laws' or 'Jim Crow laws,' that comes from the bible. He yelled at me again, since I am a veteran so in his mind fought on God's side, for not being Christian. Needless to say, I'm looking for a new job and a lawyer.

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31. Comment #181354 by PJG on May 17, 2008 at 2:37 am

For example, Stephen Colbert interviewing Congressman Lynn Westmoreland of Georgia.

Is this real or is it a spoof - like the "Dawkins stumped by creationist questions" video?

If it is real - the congressman seems to be a bit "hard of thinking" before he even gets to the 10 commandments question. He speaks...very...very....slowly.

Other Comments by PJG

32. Comment #181356 by Monosilabbiq on May 17, 2008 at 2:43 am

Re Comment 5

I am not so sure 2 out of ten is a very good assessment of the ten commandments.

Do not kill. In my country (UK) you are allowed to kill in self defence and as a member of the armed forces in certain proscribed circumstances.

Do not steal. It has been said many times on this site that there are better books - some even fiction, like Shakespeare's plays - that discuss morality rather better than the bible. For stealing I prefer the dictum expressed by Richard Sharpe in Bernard Cornwall's Sharpe series. "Don't steal unless you are starving."

One out of ten for the pathetic effort.

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33. Comment #181359 by Apathy personified on May 17, 2008 at 2:55 am

'Oh, how about the 10 commandments going through both Houses?'

How about you suck my balls.

As athiests we have to be very careful, the religious are starting to maneouver themselves into the 'oppressed' role, we have to be careful we don't fall into the role they have cast for us, 'oppresser'. Our only real defense is law - i.e. secular country, state sponsored religious activities illegal and my personal favourite, 'show me the evidence'

Other Comments by Apathy personified

34. Comment #181360 by black wolf on May 17, 2008 at 3:20 am

For stealing I prefer the dictum expressed by Richard Sharpe in Bernard Cornwall's Sharpe series. "Don't steal unless you are starving."

Exactly. Going by the Bible, the stealing person would have to repay the victim or return the stolen goods if possible, plus a fraction of its value. BUT, when the theft was during nighttime or in the dark - the thief shall be killed on the spot if caught in the act. Note that the New Testament does not even differentiate between theft, manslaughter and murder. It's all the same there (John 10:10). When a thief can't recompensate for the crime, he is to be forced into servitude (i.e. slavery). When the crime cannot be proven, the thief is to be cursed by God, and that shall be prayed for. Then the Bible turns around and allows a hungry person to take fruit (not more than can be eaten on the spot), and crops (to be torn out by hand, cutting is not allowed).
Biblical law contradicts itself in so many places that any modern judicial system would make itself the laughing stock of the world, sensible in some places and crass punishment in others for the same deed.

Other Comments by black wolf

35. Comment #181361 by Corylus on May 17, 2008 at 3:24 am

I agree that it is noticeable that these good Christians never seem to remember their own injunctions, heh, maybe they should use mnemonics more.

I good one I saw recently....

One idle damn Sunday, Dad killed cheating thief and lied to cover it.

This breaks down to....
One god, no idols, don't swear, keep the Sabbath, honour your father (and mother), don't kill, don't commit adultery, don't steal, don't bear false witness, don't covert.

Their brains do appear to need all the help they can get.

Maybe, I am being unjust here though. It is a possibility, albeit a frightening one, that some of these people might just have been reading their Barthes. (Methinks not Lynn Westmoreland though!)

Possibly the idea is for people to constantly see the ten commandments in a civic place and to thus make no distinction between the signifier (the plaque with writing on it) and the signified (the state).

When people stop making these distinctions the manipulation is complete.

Other Comments by Corylus

36. Comment #181363 by black wolf on May 17, 2008 at 3:38 am

When looking up what the Bible has to say about stealing for my above post, I came across several sermons and lectures given by theologians. Interestingly (and as I expected) they contradicted each other in their use of the exact same Bible verses. Never let yourself be fooled to think that they've got it figured out. A common statement to rebut critics is that the only thing that really counts is Jesus' word and that the rules and laws of the OT weren't binding to Christians. Well, as I found out, they have no qualms whatsoever to draw upon Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy to flesh out their arguments and sermons. The pattern is, point to those books to demonstrate the comprehensive and detailed laws of God (to make it appear he's thought of everything), and then point to the nice stories Jesus told about forgiveness to make it all appear as benevolent as possible.

Other Comments by black wolf

37. Comment #181368 by JemyM on May 17, 2008 at 3:55 am

1st commandment is against religious freedom
2nd commandment is against freedom of speech
3rd commandment is against freedom of labor
4th commandment is against children rights
9nth commandment compares women to slaves and livestock
10th commandment is against the core driving point for our economy and one of the keys to our living standards

6th is not illegal, while 5, 7 and 8 is universal and not Christian.

Foundation of the western world? My ass. The majority of the 10 commandments are AGAINST the core values of the developed world.

Other Comments by JemyM

38. Comment #181371 by pholt on May 17, 2008 at 3:59 am

It has been said many times on this site that there are better books - some also fiction, like Shakespeare's plays

I fixed that for you, Monosilabbiq

One god, no idols, don't swear, keep the Sabbath, honour your father (and mother), don't kill, don't commit adultery, don't steal, don't bear false witness, don't covert.

Unless you are a catholic, in which case you drop the second of those and split the last into two separate ones. So much for inerrancy.

Other Comments by pholt

39. Comment #181372 by mmurray on May 17, 2008 at 4:01 am

Noo Roolz - Teh Ten Commanders
1 Then Ceiling Cat spoked all them werds:

2 I iz Ceiling Cat An I iz Top Cat, An I broughted u out of hawt lend wit no cheezbrgrs for hard werk at all

3 No can has other ceiling cat!! U gotz other Ceiling Cat, I shoot yous wit mah lazer eyes.

4 If u try be Ceiling Cat of any of mai creayshunz up in floaty skai, down in erth or in watr or I shoot yous wit mah lazer eyes.5 If u think faek Ceiling Cat iz Ceiling Cat, I mek u ded An ur kittens ded An if yur kittenz have kittenz, dey be ded too, for being stupid.6 If not I wuv u An all ur lotz uf kittenz!

7 U sez Ceiling Cat bad, I shoot yous wit mah lazer eyes, cuz I dun liek it. Srsly.

8 Remembur caturday An keep holy.9 U werk 6 dais An finish werk, K?10 Caturday, u no werk. U An all ur peepz go wrship me. And, if yu beez gudd, I maks it so yu can stays home and do alla stuffs yu wanted tu doos.11 I maded heavenz An erth An see An the stuff that does teh funney hoppey stuffz in An on it - so I make it holy cuz I no werk.

12 Bez u good to papa An mama so u has long lief.

13 U no maek peepz ded! Srsly!

14 U no maek sexxes wit other gurlz or menz than ur wief (so no awsum treesum alowed!).

15 U no taek stuffs for free if not getz for free.

16 U no tell bad stuff about ur neibor.

17 U no wantz neibor stuff! No wief, no gurlz, no menz, no animulz, NO BUKKITZ! DEY NOT UR BUKKITZ, K? dey da LOLrus' bukkits.

18 When peepz see mai great orkestr wit thundr An all cool speshul effects thei wur scardy wimps

19 Thei sed to Moses 'U goez speek to uz An we will listen; but Ceiling Cat will shoot us wit its lazer eyes!'

20 Moses LOL'd lotz, An a bit moar, for thei wuz such wimps, An sed 'Ceiling Cat no maek u ded; he just wantz to hav fun wit u gais An maek u scaredy cats so u obei him.'

21 But peepz wur still wimps An let Moses go ther to Ceiling Cat.

Other Comments by mmurray

40. Comment #181375 by Colwyn Abernathy on May 17, 2008 at 4:18 am

Honest, his name is BUTTS (we couldn't make this stuff up)

Damn, when did we hit the time machine and go back to GRADE SCHOOL? ;) That's nuthin. Dick Butkis went to my high school.

EDIT:

A coalition of faith-based groups has joined forces, calling on Congress to pass resolutions in both houses to focus on the Ten Commandments.

Let's start with: "Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness". Hmm?

Other Comments by Colwyn Abernathy

41. Comment #181376 by DamnDirtyApe on May 17, 2008 at 4:21 am

What an asshole... Makes me very glad it's a woman who's shooting him down. :D

Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe

42. Comment #181378 by Colwyn Abernathy on May 17, 2008 at 4:34 am

"But with Nancy Pelosi in charge of the House and Harry Reid in charge of the Senate, we can't have a voice. We can't get these out and open and celebrate the Ten Commandments," he contends.

Celebrate? I suppose stone age minds WOULD want to celebrate black/white barbarism.

Other Comments by Colwyn Abernathy

43. Comment #181379 by Colwyn Abernathy on May 17, 2008 at 4:39 am

I'm glad this woman has her priorities straight - introducing healthy vegetarian snacks to government canteens and an admirable devotion to civic nomenclature are both far more productive things to spend one's legislative efforts on than promoting two-millennium old ethical curiosities in the public sphere.

And the Kickass Quotable Award goes to: Cartomancer! Best summed up in one L337Speek:

PWND...

EDIT:
Runner up: RightWingAtheist:

This sounds a little tribalistic to me. In the future, please address your comments to ALL makers of dairy products.

Dija 'ear that? Blessed are the Greek...

Other Comments by Colwyn Abernathy

44. Comment #181385 by someonefree on May 17, 2008 at 5:32 am

Religion at it's best:
"BALTIMORE (Map, News) - Cult members concluded Javon Thompson was a "demon" after the baby wouldn't say "amen" at mealtime and starved him to death..."
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/21425/1-mind-ministries-cult-kills-baby
They call them cult members but it's more like another form of Christianity, just more apologetic spin.

Very depressing.

[EDIT] Fixed link tags

Other Comments by someonefree

45. Comment #181390 by Auraboy on May 17, 2008 at 5:57 am

Most government bills are about naming things, always have been. That's what governments do half the time. They're a bit Old Testament in that way. Maybe that'll cheer the bloke up a little. After all, I hear god sort of named stuff and then had a recess. I mean rest. But I didn't get chance to vote him out yet. I suppose he could retaliate in kind and just refuse to believe in the existence of Nancy Pelosi or something.

Other Comments by Auraboy

46. Comment #181396 by DoctorE on May 17, 2008 at 6:12 am

One commandment is all one needs

Don't be a jerk

Other Comments by DoctorE

47. Comment #181401 by steveroot on May 17, 2008 at 6:27 am

24. Comment #181312 by RightWingAtheist on May 16, 2008 at 10:21 pm
steveroot said:
"How were these goat milkers supposed to know ..."

This sounds a little tribalistic to me. In the future, please address your comments to ALL makers of dairy products.

How insensitive of me! I'm off to therapy... maybe I can be rehabilitated. O please!
;-)
Ste5e

Other Comments by steveroot

48. Comment #181405 by Satanburiedfossils on May 17, 2008 at 6:42 am

Excerpts from "The Real Ten Commandments" by Richard Carrier:

I keep hearing this chant, variously phrased: "The Ten Commandments are the foundation of Western morality and the American Constitution and government." In saying this, people are essentially crediting Moses with the invention of ethics, democracy and civil rights, a claim that is of course absurd. But its absurdity is eclipsed by its injustice, for there is another lawmaker who is far more important to us, whose ideas and actions lie far more at the foundation of American government, and whose own Ten Commandments were distributed at large and influencing the greatest civilizations of the West--Greece and Rome--for well over half a millennia before the laws of Moses were anything near a universal social influence.

The man I am talking about is Solon the Athenian. Solon was born, we believe, around 638 B.C.E., and lived until approximately 558, but the date in his life of greatest importance to us is the year he was elected to create a constitution for Athens, 594 B.C.E. How important is this man? Let's examine what we owe to him, in comparison with the legendary author (or at last, in legend, the transmitter) of the Judeo-Christian Ten Commandments. Solon is the founder of Western democracy and the first man in history to articulate ideas of equal rights for all citizens, and though he did not go nearly as far in the latter as we have come today, Moses can claim no connection to either. Solon was the first man in Western history to publicly record a civil constitution in writing. No one in Hebrew history did anything of the kind, least of all Moses. Solon advocated not only the right but even the duty of every citizen to bear arms in the defense of the state--to him we owe the 2nd Amendment. Nothing about that is to be found in the Ten Commandments of Moses. Solon set up laws defending the principles and importance of private property, state encouragement of economic trades and crafts, and a strong middle class--the ideals which lie at the heart of American prosperity, yet which cannot be credited at all to Moses.

Solon is the first man in history to eliminate birth as a basis for government office, and to create democratic assemblies open to all male citizens, such that no law could be passed without the majority vote of all. The notion of letting women into full political rights would not arise in any culture until that of modern Europe, but democracy never gets a single word in the Bible. Solon invented the right of appeal and trial by jury, whereby an assembly of citizens chosen at random, without regard for office or wealth or birth, gave all legal verdicts. Moses can claim nothing as fundamental as these developments, which are absolutely essential to modern society. The concept of taking a government official to court for malfeasance we owe to Solon. We read nothing of the kind about Moses. The idea of allowing foreigners who have mastered a useful trade to immigrate and become citizens is also an original invention of Solon--indeed, the modern concept of citizenship itself is largely indebted to him. There is nothing like this in the Bible. And like our own George Washington, Solon declined the offer to become ruler in his country, giving it a Constitution instead--unlike Moses who gave laws yet continued to reign. And Solon's selfless creation of the Athenian constitution set the course which led to the rise of the first universal democracy in the United States, and it was to Solon's Athens, not the Bible, that our Founding Fathers looked for guidance in constructing a new State. Moses can claim no responsibility for this. If we had Solon and no Moses, we would very likely still be where we are today. But if we had Moses and no Solon, democracy might never have existed at all.

[The] Ten Commandments of Solon, which run as follows:

1. Trust good character more than promises.
2. Do not speak falsely.
3. Do good things.
4. Do not be hasty in making friends, but do not abandon them once made.
5. Learn to obey before you command.
6. When giving advice, do not recommend what is most pleasing, but what is most useful.
7. Make reason your supreme commander.
8. Do not associate with people who do bad things.
9. Honor the gods.
10. Have regard for your parents.

There is but one that might give a secularist pause: Solon's commandment to honor the gods (in the Greek, tima', "to honor, to revere, to pay due regard"). Yet when we compare it to the similar First Three Commandments of Moses, we see how much more Solon's single religious commandment can be made to suit our society and our civic ideals: it does not have to restrict religious freedom, for it does not demand that we believe in anyone's god or follow anyone's religious rules. It remains in the appropriate plural. Solon asks us to give the plethora of gods the regard that they are due, and we can say that some gods are not due much--such as the racist gods and gods of hellfire. In the end, it is good to be respectful of the gods of others, which we can do even if we are criticizing them, even if we disbelieve in them. This would remain true to our most prized American ethic of religious liberty and civility. Though it might better be rendered now, "Respect the religions of others," there is something fitting in admitting that there are many gods, the many that people invent and hope for.

http://secweb.infidels.org/?kiosk=articles&id=2

Also see:

"THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, an objective assessment" by Louis W. Cable

http://www.inu.net/skeptic/tencom.html

Other Comments by Satanburiedfossils

49. Comment #181406 by Barry Pearson on May 17, 2008 at 6:45 am

black wolf said: A common statement to rebut critics is that the only thing that really counts is Jesus' word and that the rules and laws of the OT weren't binding to Christians.

Haven't they studied the Sermon on the Mount?

Mathew 5 verses 17 & 18 (KJV):

17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Mathew 5 verses 17 & 18 (TNIV):

17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

18 Truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Other Comments by Barry Pearson

50. Comment #181411 by Border Collie on May 17, 2008 at 7:19 am

What?

Other Comments by Border Collie