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Godless
by NY Times
Thanks to Catalin for the link.
http://egan.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/11/godless/index.html
Godless
This Father's Day, one of most popular pastors in America will open his megachurch to homosexual dads, an event that would usually signal an extreme weather alert from old guard Republican evangelical leaders.
But by welcoming gay fathers into his Southern California flock, Rick Warren, author of the "The Purpose Driven Life," is not just living up to the highest standards of Christian fellowship, he's turning the page on a particularly embarrassing part of our politics.
Just to refresh: it was televangelist Pat Robertson who predicted "earthquakes, tornadoes and possibly even a meteor" would hit Orlando for inviting gays to Disney World, and Rev. John Hagee who blamed Hurricane Katrina on a vengeful God angered over a gay pride parade in New Orleans. And they did this even without Doppler radar.
The fact that these people were taken seriously about anything other than, say, what color socks to wear on bingo night, tells us something about how far we've strayed rom the pulpit into the town square.
Over the last 30 years, church and state have become far more entangled than any of our fair-minded founders and their better successors — including some chiseled on Mount Rushmore — envisioned.
The good tidings from Warren's Saddleback Church come at a time when Barack Obama has ditched his incendiary ex-preacher, and John McCain has separated himself from the apocalyptical Hagee.
It's a start, but how about a clean break? Let's go Godless for the rest of the campaign.
I know, it's not going to happen, with Obama courting evangelicals this week and McCain trying to figure what makes Catholics in the Rust Belt tick.
But for a moment, imagine no religion, as John Lennon sang.
Forty-eight years ago an Irish Catholic presidential candidate said this about a bedrock principle of his:
"I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute."
And, "I believe in a president whose views on religion are his own private affair."
That was John F. Kennedy, of course, sounding light years removed from Mitt Romney, who declared this year that "freedom requires religion," and Mike Huckabee, who called himself a "Christian leader" and advocated amending the Constitution to follow Biblical principles. Both men are being touted as running mates for McCain.
"Where we are today is almost the antithesis of Kennedy's time," said David Domke, a professor of communications at the University of Washington and co-author, with Kevin Coe, of "The God Strategy: How Religion Became a Political Weapon in America."
Not so long ago, politicians could talk about national defense or currency fluctuations without having to mention Him. But since 1980, the total number of references to God in major presidential speeches has jumped 120 percent over the preceding half-century, Domke and Coe found.
"It's the verbal equivalent of an American flag lapel pin: few notice if you do it, but many notice if you don't," Domke and Coe wrote in a recent essay in Time. Domke, by the way, is no tweedy secularist; his wife is a Presbyterian minister.
Obama has been the more overtly God-centric candidate in this campaign, perhaps because of the whispers that falsely paint him as a Muslim, or interchangeable blondes on Fox News who interpret playful hand gestures with his spouse as "a terrorist fist jab," as E.D. Hill said on air.
At a meeting with prominent Christian leaders on Tuesday, Obama discussed his "personal journey of faith," as one participant recounted. That, alone, goes against Kennedy's dictum of keeping it private.
Teddy Roosevelt, a McCain hero, was prescient on this point as well. He argued against putting, "In God We Trust," on the currency in 1907, saying it cheapens the divine. "It not only does no good," he wrote, "but it does positive harm."
To their credit, some ministers have learned from their fallen fellows of the cloth. Four years ago, Ted Haggard's phone number was on speed dial at the White House, and he regularly boasted of his political clout as head of the 30-million-member National Association of Evangelicals.
Then came his admission of patronizing a gay prostitute and buying crystal methamphetamine, a two-fer in the hypocrisy sweepstakes. It also made for one the strangest images on television — a smiling Haggard in his S.U.V., with wife and kids, talking about meth and massages from a buff male escort.
On the plus side, Pastor Ted is now welcome at Rick Warren's church on Sunday.
Joel Osteen, the feel-good Texas optimist who is perhaps the nation's most popular minister, and Warren have both disavowed politics this year. They will not endorse a candidate, allow politics in the service, or issue thinly disguised election "guidelines," hint, hint.
Bless 'em.
Now let the politicians pick up the cue, following advice of one of Teddy Roosevelt's Rushmore face mates.
"Say nothing of my religion," said Thomas Jefferson. "It's known to my God and myself alone."
http://egan.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/11/godless/index.html
Godless
This Father's Day, one of most popular pastors in America will open his megachurch to homosexual dads, an event that would usually signal an extreme weather alert from old guard Republican evangelical leaders.
But by welcoming gay fathers into his Southern California flock, Rick Warren, author of the "The Purpose Driven Life," is not just living up to the highest standards of Christian fellowship, he's turning the page on a particularly embarrassing part of our politics.
Just to refresh: it was televangelist Pat Robertson who predicted "earthquakes, tornadoes and possibly even a meteor" would hit Orlando for inviting gays to Disney World, and Rev. John Hagee who blamed Hurricane Katrina on a vengeful God angered over a gay pride parade in New Orleans. And they did this even without Doppler radar.
The fact that these people were taken seriously about anything other than, say, what color socks to wear on bingo night, tells us something about how far we've strayed rom the pulpit into the town square.
Over the last 30 years, church and state have become far more entangled than any of our fair-minded founders and their better successors — including some chiseled on Mount Rushmore — envisioned.
The good tidings from Warren's Saddleback Church come at a time when Barack Obama has ditched his incendiary ex-preacher, and John McCain has separated himself from the apocalyptical Hagee.
It's a start, but how about a clean break? Let's go Godless for the rest of the campaign.
I know, it's not going to happen, with Obama courting evangelicals this week and McCain trying to figure what makes Catholics in the Rust Belt tick.
But for a moment, imagine no religion, as John Lennon sang.
Forty-eight years ago an Irish Catholic presidential candidate said this about a bedrock principle of his:
"I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute."
And, "I believe in a president whose views on religion are his own private affair."
That was John F. Kennedy, of course, sounding light years removed from Mitt Romney, who declared this year that "freedom requires religion," and Mike Huckabee, who called himself a "Christian leader" and advocated amending the Constitution to follow Biblical principles. Both men are being touted as running mates for McCain.
"Where we are today is almost the antithesis of Kennedy's time," said David Domke, a professor of communications at the University of Washington and co-author, with Kevin Coe, of "The God Strategy: How Religion Became a Political Weapon in America."
Not so long ago, politicians could talk about national defense or currency fluctuations without having to mention Him. But since 1980, the total number of references to God in major presidential speeches has jumped 120 percent over the preceding half-century, Domke and Coe found.
"It's the verbal equivalent of an American flag lapel pin: few notice if you do it, but many notice if you don't," Domke and Coe wrote in a recent essay in Time. Domke, by the way, is no tweedy secularist; his wife is a Presbyterian minister.
Obama has been the more overtly God-centric candidate in this campaign, perhaps because of the whispers that falsely paint him as a Muslim, or interchangeable blondes on Fox News who interpret playful hand gestures with his spouse as "a terrorist fist jab," as E.D. Hill said on air.
At a meeting with prominent Christian leaders on Tuesday, Obama discussed his "personal journey of faith," as one participant recounted. That, alone, goes against Kennedy's dictum of keeping it private.
Teddy Roosevelt, a McCain hero, was prescient on this point as well. He argued against putting, "In God We Trust," on the currency in 1907, saying it cheapens the divine. "It not only does no good," he wrote, "but it does positive harm."
To their credit, some ministers have learned from their fallen fellows of the cloth. Four years ago, Ted Haggard's phone number was on speed dial at the White House, and he regularly boasted of his political clout as head of the 30-million-member National Association of Evangelicals.
Then came his admission of patronizing a gay prostitute and buying crystal methamphetamine, a two-fer in the hypocrisy sweepstakes. It also made for one the strangest images on television — a smiling Haggard in his S.U.V., with wife and kids, talking about meth and massages from a buff male escort.
On the plus side, Pastor Ted is now welcome at Rick Warren's church on Sunday.
Joel Osteen, the feel-good Texas optimist who is perhaps the nation's most popular minister, and Warren have both disavowed politics this year. They will not endorse a candidate, allow politics in the service, or issue thinly disguised election "guidelines," hint, hint.
Bless 'em.
Now let the politicians pick up the cue, following advice of one of Teddy Roosevelt's Rushmore face mates.
"Say nothing of my religion," said Thomas Jefferson. "It's known to my God and myself alone."
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Posted: Thursday, June 12, 2008 | PermalinkComments 1 - 33 of 33 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #192063 by Tyler Durden on June 12, 2008 at 12:16 pm
On the plus side, Pastor Ted Haggard is now welcome at Rick Warren's church on Sunday.Why? Has Ted finally come out?
Other Comments by Tyler Durden
3. Comment #192073 by ghuckin on June 12, 2008 at 12:25 pm
....and Rev. John Hagee who blamed Hurricane Katrina on a vengeful God angered over a gay pride parade in New Orleans. And they did this even without Doppler radar.
They used Doppler gadar. (Also) arf, arf!!
Other Comments by ghuckin
4. Comment #192084 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on June 12, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Just to refresh: it was televangelist Pat Robertson who predicted "earthquakes, tornadoes and possibly even a meteor" would hit Orlando for inviting gays to Disney World, and Rev. John Hagee who blamed Hurricane Katrina on a vengeful God angered over a gay pride parade in New Orleans.
Even though I know they said this I still think it must be some kind of Onion type joke. Poe's Law.
Other Comments by ThoughtsonCommonToad
5. Comment #192087 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Obama has been the more overtly God-centric candidate in this campaign,
[sarcasm]
Wait....isn't McCain the psychotic Christian evangelical in this race?
[/sarcasm]
Other Comments by FightingFalcon
6. Comment #192092 by kev_s on June 12, 2008 at 12:43 pm
In case you don't follow Pharyngula too...I thought this was interesting from Obama.
Maybe he's just a typically dishonest politician who'll say anything to get votes but this sounded like what he really thought to me.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/06/this_is_how_obama_could_make_m.php
Other Comments by kev_s
7. Comment #192095 by Podaar on June 12, 2008 at 12:46 pm
6. Comment #192092 by kev_s
Because Mr. Obama has said things that are the opposite of this speach...it's impossible to determine what he 'really' thinks. His critics on this website, I'm afraid, are spot on.
Sad but true.
Other Comments by Podaar
8. Comment #192097 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on June 12, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Because Mr. Obama has said things that are the opposite of this speach...it's impossible to determine what he 'really' thinks. His critics on this website, I'm afraid, are spot on.
He hasn't, not contradictory, just less explicit.
Other Comments by ThoughtsonCommonToad
9. Comment #192106 by robotaholic on June 12, 2008 at 12:58 pm
hahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!! Pastor TED -
oh yeah ARF ARF
Other Comments by robotaholic
10. Comment #192110 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Reply to Comment #6....I'm pretty tired of seeing that video on here. How many people are going to make up their mind on Obama based on a 2 MINUTE video?!
I thought Atheists were all about collecting as much data as possible and then making an educated decision based on what the evidence seems to favor?
One speech by Obama does not make him a secularist. Especially when there are plenty of other speeches that show his sympathy for the oft-mentioned "Judeo-Christian roots of America".
Other Comments by FightingFalcon
11. Comment #192112 by monoape on June 12, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Don't you remember, Ted don't need to come out - he was cured. They preyed the gay clean out of him.P.S. "..."In God We Trust," on the currency in 1907,.." - it was 1957.
Other Comments by monoape
12. Comment #192115 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 1:13 pm
P.S. "..."In God We Trust," on the currency in 1907,.." - it was 1957.
I think the article was talking about how some people tried putting "In God We Trust" on our currency back in 1907 but that President TR stopped them.
Other Comments by FightingFalcon
13. Comment #192116 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on June 12, 2008 at 1:13 pm
I thought Atheists were all about collecting as much data as possible and then making an educated decision based on what the evidence seems to favor?
One speech by Obama does not make him a secularist. Especially when there are plenty of other speeches that show his sympathy for the oft-mentioned "Judeo-Christian roots of America".
He has repeated this a few times and it takes pride of place on his website. The fact is it's incredibly important that Obama gets in so that the when the next supreme court judge is appointed its not another conservative Christian. How many 5 to 4s does it take to show just how important this issue is.
Other Comments by ThoughtsonCommonToad
14. Comment #192118 by Lucas on June 12, 2008 at 1:15 pm
The Obama video is great. If he stuck to that, we'd all be happy. It's too bad he has to, or feels he has to, pander to the believers. There are parts of this speech that the most fervent would object to, but I think most believers would be okay with what he said. They would do well to realize that they would all benefit from this attitude toward religion.EDIT: Also, I'm happy to let him say a bunch of pandering crap to get into office, as long as he actually operates according to the ideas in this speech.
Other Comments by Lucas
15. Comment #192121 by Epinephrine on June 12, 2008 at 1:20 pm
Going to agree with ThoughtsonCommonToad, the important thing is what kind of judge(s) get placed on the supreme court.
While it sucks that Obama is playing the religion card atm, I think that you're more likely to get a judge supporting separation of church and state from him.
Other Comments by Epinephrine
16. Comment #192142 by hopeful on June 12, 2008 at 1:41 pm
"I believe in a president whose views on religion are his own private affair."This is slightly off-topic, but I just don't buy in to the whole "religion is ok as long as you keep it private" idea.
It is not in the nature of religion to be kept private, and I don't believe it is possible for a person to behave outwardly completely independently of their heart-felt inner beliefs, particularly when we are talking about a job that involves the management of society.
Such key jobs should not be entrusted to people who believe in stone-age myths regardless of whether they talk about it or not.
Other Comments by hopeful
17. Comment #192148 by thewhitepearl on June 12, 2008 at 1:45 pm
"The fact that these people were taken seriously about anything other than, say, what color socks to wear on bingo night, tells us something about how far we've strayed rom the pulpit into the town square."
Ditto!
I didn't know about the meth part for T.H...it figures..
Other Comments by thewhitepearl
18. Comment #192170 by Prom_STar on June 12, 2008 at 2:07 pm
Kennedy, Roosevelt, Obama (for the most part), most people on this site--we get the issue. Religion and state are separated for the benefit of all involved parties.Side note: What ever happened to the days when Christians kept out of politics because it was too wordly? Can we have those days back?
Other Comments by Prom_STar
19. Comment #192187 by zosky on June 12, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Hopeful said, "It is not in the nature of religion to be kept private, and I don't believe it is possible for a person to behave outwardly completely independently of their heart-felt inner beliefs, particularly when we are talking about a job that involves the management of society."On the contrary, people in the medical field do this very expertly. A friend of mine, who is a surgeon is very able to critically analyze study data and information pertaining to science but when it comes to religion, he just believes. That's it, he just believes. It is called compartmentalization. And many other doctors think this way. They do not question their religious beliefs and are able to keep those beliefs neatly away from science. They do this because the religious beliefs are never analyzed.
Other Comments by zosky
20. Comment #192204 by hopeful on June 12, 2008 at 2:44 pm
zosky said "On the contrary, people in the medical field do this very expertly. A friend of mine, who is a surgeon is very able to critically analyze study data and information pertaining to science but when it comes to religion, he just believes. That's it, he just believes. It is called compartmentalization."Yes, but could your friend remove someone's kidney if he believed in religious dogma that said that removing a kidney destroys the soul?
I agree that compartmentalization might be possible in some situations. However I specifically mentioned jobs that are involved with the management of society.
Can a government leader make genuinely good policy on science education if he doesn't actually believe in science?
Other Comments by hopeful
21. Comment #192314 by Cartomancer on June 12, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Fatherhood... shudder. And there was me thinking that being a homosexual spared me from acquiring that particular incurable sexually-transmitted condition.I wonder why gay parents would want to go along to Rick Warren's megachurch in the first place? Not feeling ostracised enough already? And Fathers' day isn't even a christian festival!
It really does surprise me that there are still openly gay people out there who believe in all this asinine religious nonsense. Especially after most of the world's major churches, and all of its major mosques, have done their utmost to dissuade gay people from joining in. Surely the cognitive dissonance must get a bit much?
Then again, most of the gay people I have ever met are quite irredeemably stupid - and we all know about the positive correlation between intelligence and religiosity!
Other Comments by Cartomancer
22. Comment #192321 by schmeer on June 12, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Regarding "In God We Trust":The phrase was added to paper currency in 1957, but had been rejected by T. Roosavelt who believed it was blasphemy, as correctly stated above.
However, it did appear on some coins beginning in 1864. Regardless of when it first appeared, it still doesn't belong there.
The US Treasury website has a lot of information on that government approved violation of the Constitution.
Other Comments by schmeer
23. Comment #192333 by Geodesic17 on June 12, 2008 at 7:38 pm
On the contrary, people in the medical field do this very expertly. A friend of mine, who is a surgeon is very able to critically analyze study data and information pertaining to science but when it comes to religion, he just believes. That's it, he just believes. It is called compartmentalization. And many other doctors think this way. They do not question their religious beliefs and are able to keep those beliefs neatly away from science. They do this because the religious beliefs are never analyzed.
Well, we wouldn't want these people not believing that they are god's gift to the world, would we?
Other Comments by Geodesic17
24. Comment #192368 by adk on June 12, 2008 at 10:09 pm
On the plus side, Pastor Ted is now welcome at Rick Warren's church on Sunday.
Hah! No way, he was 'cured' right, after like 4 months of intensive therapy or something? Reminds me of this catchy song:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=HZmHC75FDqQ
Other Comments by adk
25. Comment #192412 by Biblebeltheretic on June 13, 2008 at 2:44 am
Post 16;I suspect "keeping religion a private affair" is a tactic to avoid saying you don't believe the bullshit. I used it myself when I was much younger and wasn't comfortable saying I was an atheist.
It gives the impression that you are religious but would rather not talk about it.
Other Comments by Biblebeltheretic
26. Comment #192418 by paulwwww on June 13, 2008 at 3:18 am
Sorry if this post shows up twice.This "God in the Whitehouse" crap is really getting under my skin. Compound this with the fact that politicians and big media keeping referring to the USA as a democracy (brainwashing anyone). Obviously this great country is a Republic. Fundamental religion and democracy spells disaster.
On a lighter note;
It also made for one the strangest images on television â€" a smiling Haggard in his S.U.V., with wife and kids, talking about meth and massages from a buff male escort.
LMAO
Other Comments by paulwwww
27. Comment #192470 by Podaar on June 13, 2008 at 6:05 am
10. Comment #192110 by FightingFalconI'm pretty tired of seeing that video on here. How many people are going to make up their mind on Obama based on a 2 MINUTE videoFF,
Are you sure their mind is made up? Solely because of this video? I agree that you have evidence of Obama's waffling on issues, but your "tone" (if there is such a thing on the internet) is condescending to the point of annoying. So, what if they like this video, how does it make them more gullible than you who enjoy watching Jeremiah Wright go off and then tell us all that's truly what Obama believes?
How do any of us know what another 'truly' believes? Does it really matter if other posters on this site agree with your choice?
[edit]I should know better than to post before coffee. Please ignore the pointless post above :)[/edit]
Other Comments by Podaar
28. Comment #192493 by Stella on June 13, 2008 at 7:35 am
So Obama is the new JFK. I hope not. JFK "inspired" us with his youth, his energy, his grand plans for visiting the moon, his new programs that brought younger Americans into the stream of public service. But he was also elected with help from the mafia; sat on the fence about civil rights at a crucial moment that could've been the catalyst for earlier, broader change; tried to invade Cuba (a sovereign nation, despite what the stupid, imperialist Teller and Platt Amendments might have posited); undermined leftist governments in Latin America with the typical covert CIA operations; continued Eisenhower's interventionist policy in Vietnam, and approved the use of free-fire zones and napalm there; and (shock!) sent arms to the new Baathist regime in Iraq during their campaign to rid the country of suspected leftists while American oil companies (notably Mobil and Bechtel) were doing business in that country.
This has all happened before.
Other Comments by Stella
29. Comment #192503 by wagnerpe on June 13, 2008 at 8:22 am
I liked this article. It's always great to point out the hypocrisy among these evangelical nutjobs, but even better to just quote them verbatim and let their craziness speak for itself.Other Comments by wagnerpe
30. Comment #192618 by Steven Mading on June 13, 2008 at 4:18 pm
Fighting falcon said:
I think the article was talking about how some people tried putting "In God We Trust" on our currency back in 1907 but that President TR stopped them.
The confusion here is caused by the fact that "In god we trust" was not put on all types of currency in the same year. A few coins had it put on in 1907, and then in 1957 it became all currency forms, not just the few types of coins that it was before.
Other Comments by Steven Mading
31. Comment #192619 by Steven Mading on June 13, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Lucas wrote:EDIT: Also, I'm happy to let him say a bunch of pandering crap to get into office, as long as he actually operates according to the ideas in this speech.
I think the fear is that we can't tell when he's pandering. Some things he says we like, and some things he says we don't like. The question is, does he agree with US and is merly pandering to THEM or does he agree with THEM and is merely pandering to US? Who's getting the snow job - the secularists or the evangelicals?
Other Comments by Steven Mading
32. Comment #192652 by OutragedofDaylesford on June 13, 2008 at 8:17 pm
What a wonderful speech to make in a church !Other Comments by OutragedofDaylesford
33. Comment #193150 by BT Murtagh on June 14, 2008 at 8:45 pm
Fact sheet from the US Mint:
In God We Trust
From Treasury Department records it appears that the first suggestion that God be recognized on U.S. coinage can be traced to a letter addressed to the Secretary of Treasury from a minister in 1861. An Act of Congress, approved on April 11, 1864, authorized the coinage of two-cent coins upon which the motto first appeared.
The motto was omitted from the new gold coins issued in 1907, causing a storm of public criticism. As a result, legislation passed in May 1908 made "In God We Trust" mandatory on all coins on which it had previously appeared.
Legislation approved July 11, 1955, made the appearance of "In God We Trust" mandatory on all coins and paper currency of the United States. By Act of July 30, 1956, "In God We Trust" became the national motto of the United States.
Several years ago, the appearance of "In God We Trust" on our money was challenged in the federal courts. The challenge was rejected by the lower federal courts, and the Supreme Court of the United States declined to review the case.
Other Comments by BT Murtagh
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1. Comment #192060 by stephenray on June 12, 2008 at 12:12 pm
"On the plus side, Pastor Ted is now welcome at Rick Warren's church on Sunday."Arf, arf!!
Other Comments by stephenray