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Thursday, June 12, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Unlike Others, U.S. Defends Freedom to Offend in Speech

by NY Times

Thanks to Wesley Scott for the link.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/12/us/12hate.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Unlike Others, U.S. Defends Freedom to Offend in Speech


The British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal will soon rule on whether the cover story of the October 23, 2006, issue of Maclean's magazine violated a provincial hate speech law.



VANCOUVER, British Columbia — A couple of years ago, a Canadian magazine published an article arguing that the rise of Islam threatened Western values. The article's tone was mocking and biting, but it said nothing that conservative magazines and blogs in the United States do not say every day without fear of legal reprisal.

Things are different here. The magazine is on trial.

Two members of the Canadian Islamic Congress say the magazine, Maclean's, Canada's leading newsweekly, violated a provincial hate speech law by stirring up hatred against Muslims. They say the magazine should be forbidden from saying similar things, forced to publish a rebuttal and made to compensate Muslims for injuring their "dignity, feelings and self-respect."

The British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal, which held five days of hearings on those questions here last week, will soon rule on whether Maclean's violated the law. As spectators lined up for the afternoon session last week, an argument broke out.

"It's hate speech!" yelled one man.

"It's free speech!" yelled another.

In the United States, that debate has been settled. Under the First Amendment, newspapers and magazines can say what they like about minorities and religions — even false, provocative or hateful things — without legal consequence.

The Maclean's article, "The Future Belongs to Islam," was an excerpt from a book by Mark Steyn called "America Alone" (Regnery, 2006). The title was fitting: The United States, in its treatment of hate speech, as in so many other areas of the law, takes a distinctive legal path.

"In much of the developed world, one uses racial epithets at one's legal peril, one displays Nazi regalia and the other trappings of ethnic hatred at significant legal risk, and one urges discrimination against religious minorities under threat of fine or imprisonment," Frederick Schauer, a professor at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard, wrote in a recent essay called "The Exceptional First Amendment."

"But in the United States," Professor Schauer continued, "all such speech remains constitutionally protected."

Canada, England, France, Germany, the Netherlands, South Africa, Australia and India all have laws or have signed international conventions banning hate speech. Israel and France forbid the sale of Nazi items like swastikas and flags. It is a crime to deny the Holocaust in Canada, Germany and France.

Earlier this month, the actress Brigitte Bardot, an animal rights activist, was fined $23,000 in France for provoking racial hatred by criticizing a Muslim ceremony involving the slaughter of sheep.

By contrast, American courts would not stop a planned march by the American Nazi Party in Skokie, Ill., in 1977, though a march would have been deeply distressing to the many Holocaust survivors there.

Six years later, a state court judge in New York dismissed a libel case brought by several Puerto Rican groups against a business executive who had called food stamps "basically a Puerto Rican program." The First Amendment, Justice Eve M. Preminger wrote, does not allow even false statements about racial or ethnic groups to be suppressed or punished just because they may increase "the general level of prejudice."

Some prominent legal scholars say the United States should reconsider its position on hate speech.

"It is not clear to me that the Europeans are mistaken," Jeremy Waldron, a legal philosopher, wrote in The New York Review of Books last month, "when they say that a liberal democracy must take affirmative responsibility for protecting the atmosphere of mutual respect against certain forms of vicious attack."

Professor Waldron was reviewing "Freedom for the Thought That We Hate: A Biography of the First Amendment" by Anthony Lewis, the former New York Times columnist. Mr. Lewis has been critical of efforts to use the law to limit hate speech.

But even Mr. Lewis, a liberal, wrote in his book that he was inclined to relax some of the most stringent First Amendment protections "in an age when words have inspired acts of mass murder and terrorism." In particular, he called for a re-examination of the Supreme Court's insistence that there is only one justification for making incitement a criminal offense: the likelihood of imminent violence.

The imminence requirement sets a high hurdle. Mere advocacy of violence, terrorism or the overthrow of the government is not enough; the words must be meant to and be likely to produce violence or lawlessness right away. A fiery speech urging an angry mob to immediately assault a black man in its midst probably qualifies as incitement under the First Amendment. A magazine article — or any publication — intended to stir up racial hatred surely does not.

Mr. Lewis wrote that there was "genuinely dangerous" speech that did not meet the imminence requirement.

"I think we should be able to punish speech that urges terrorist violence to an audience, some of whose members are ready to act on the urging," Mr. Lewis wrote. "That is imminence enough."

Harvey A. Silverglate, a civil liberties lawyer in Cambridge, Mass., disagreed. "When times are tough," he said, "there seems to be a tendency to say there is too much freedom."

"Free speech matters because it works," Mr. Silverglate continued. Scrutiny and debate are more effective ways of combating hate speech than censorship, he said, and all the more so in the post-Sept. 11 era.

"The world didn't suffer because too many people read 'Mein Kampf,' " Mr. Silverglate said. "Sending Hitler on a speaking tour of the United States would have been quite a good idea."

Mr. Silverglate seemed to be echoing the words of Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr., whose 1919 dissent in Abrams v. United States eventually formed the basis for modern First Amendment law.

"The best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market," Justice Holmes wrote.

"I think that we should be eternally vigilant," he added, "against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe and believe to be fraught with death."

The First Amendment is not, of course, absolute. The Supreme Court has said that the government may ban fighting words or threats. Punishments may be enhanced for violent crimes prompted by racial hatred. And private institutions, including universities and employers, are not subject to the First Amendment, which restricts only government activities.

But merely saying hateful things about minorities, even with the intent to cause their members distress and to generate contempt and loathing, is protected by the First Amendment.

In 1969, for instance, the Supreme Court unanimously overturned the conviction of a leader of a Ku Klux Klan group under an Ohio statute that banned the advocacy of terrorism. The Klan leader, Clarence Brandenburg, had urged his followers at a rally to "send the Jews back to Israel," to "bury" blacks, though he did not call them that, and to consider "revengeance" against politicians and judges who were unsympathetic to whites.

Only Klan members and journalists were present. Because Mr. Brandenburg's words fell short of calling for immediate violence in a setting where such violence was likely, the Supreme Court ruled that he could not be prosecuted for incitement.

In his opening statement in the Canadian magazine case, a lawyer representing the Muslim plaintiffs aggrieved by the Maclean's article pleaded with a three-member panel of the tribunal to declare that the article subjected his clients to "hatred and ridicule" and to force the magazine to publish a response.

"You are the only thing between racist, hateful, contemptuous Islamophobic and irresponsible journalism, and law-abiding Canadian citizens," the lawyer, Faisal Joseph, told the tribunal.

In response, the lawyer for Maclean's, Roger D. McConchie, all but called the proceeding a sham.

"Innocent intent is not a defense," Mr. McConchie said in a bitter criticism of the British Columbia law on hate speech. "Nor is truth. Nor is fair comment on true facts. Publication in the public interest and for the public benefit is not a defense. Opinion expressed in good faith is not a defense. Responsible journalism is not a defense."

Jason Gratl, a lawyer for the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association and the Canadian Association of Journalists, which have intervened in the case in support of the magazine, was measured in his criticism of the law.

"Canadians do not have a cast-iron stomach for offensive speech," Mr. Gratl said in a telephone interview. "We don't subscribe to a marketplace of ideas. Americans as a whole are more tough-minded and more prepared for verbal combat."

Many foreign courts have respectfully considered the American approach — and then rejected it.

A 1990 decision from the Canadian Supreme Court, for instance, upheld the criminal conviction of James Keegstra for "unlawfully promoting hatred against an identifiable group by communicating anti-Semitic statements." Mr. Keegstra, a teacher, had told his students that Jews were "money loving," "power hungry" and "treacherous."

Writing for the majority, Chief Justice Brian Dickson said there was an issue "crucial to the disposition of this appeal: the relationship between Canadian and American approaches to the constitutional protection of free expression, most notably in the realm of hate propaganda."

Chief Justice Dickson said "there is much to be learned from First Amendment jurisprudence." But he concluded that "the international commitment to eradicate hate propaganda and, most importantly, the special role given equality and multiculturalism in the Canadian Constitution necessitate a departure from the view, reasonably prevalent in America at present, that the suppression of hate propaganda is incompatible with the guarantee of free expression."

The United States' distinctive approach to free speech, legal scholars say, has many causes. It is partly rooted in an individualistic view of the world. Fear of allowing the government to decide what speech is acceptable plays a role. So does history.

"It would be really hard to criticize Israel, Austria, Germany and South Africa, given their histories," for laws banning hate speech, Professor Schauer said in an interview.

In Canada, however, laws banning hate speech seem to stem from a desire to promote societal harmony. While the Ontario Human Rights Commission dismissed a complaint against Maclean's, it still condemned the article.

"In Canada, the right to freedom of expression is not absolute, nor should it be," the commission's statement said. "By portraying Muslims as all sharing the same negative characteristics, including being a threat to 'the West,' this explicit expression of Islamophobia further perpetuates and promotes prejudice toward Muslims and others."

A separate federal complaint against Maclean's is pending.

Mr. Steyn, the author of the article, said the Canadian proceedings had illustrated some important distinctions. "The problem with so-called hate speech laws is that they're not about facts," he said in a telephone interview. "They're about feelings."

"What we're learning here is really the bedrock difference between the United States and the countries that are in a broad sense its legal cousins," Mr. Steyn added. "Western governments are becoming increasingly comfortable with the regulation of opinion. The First Amendment really does distinguish the U.S., not just from Canada but from the rest of the Western world."

Comments 1 - 50 of 141 |

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1. Comment #192064 by Colwyn Abernathy on June 12, 2008 at 12:16 pm

 avatar
"But in the United States," Professor Schauer continued, "all such speech remains constitutionally protected."


Hell's yesh! Makes it easier to Spot the Fucktard. As in Ghostbusters 2, "Being mean and treating everyone else like dirt is every New Yorker's God given right." Steyn mebbe right. We might be the last bastion of freedom of expression, and that's frightening.

Some prominent legal scholars say the United States should reconsider its position on hate speech.


Those prominent legal scholars can bite my crank. The solution to a bad idea is a better one, not forcing the bad idea to be quiet.

EDIT:

"It is not clear to me that the Europeans are mistaken," Jeremy Waldron, a legal philosopher, wrote in The New York Review of Books last month, "when they say that a liberal democracy must take affirmative responsibility for protecting the atmosphere of mutual respect against certain forms of vicious attack."


Then you're an idiot. We're talking about SPEECH. "Vicious attacks" in speech aren't including bayonettes and firearms. Sticks and stones, baby. I guess words DO hurt you. Wah, wah.

Other Comments by Colwyn Abernathy

2. Comment #192067 by JamesDB on June 12, 2008 at 12:19 pm

 avatarMy mom has been receiving macleans for years and i would never have thought they would need to go to court over hate speech. It is a very outstanding and respectful magazine and this blows my mind. Canadians can't seriously think that this is hate speech and i hope they rule in favour of the magazine or its yet another step backwards for free speech.

Other Comments by JamesDB

3. Comment #192068 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 12:21 pm

 avatarAnd people wonder why I love America so much...

You'll take our freedom of speech only over our dead bodies!

Other Comments by FightingFalcon

4. Comment #192070 by Heretic on June 12, 2008 at 12:23 pm

 avatarI'm not a fan of the whole of the Bill of Rights (I'm British BTW) but the First Ammendment is one constitutional right that the US seems to have got right. Defend freedom of speech - and that includes the right to offend. It seems free speech has gone out of the window here in the UK.

edit - ooh, first post! ;)

Other Comments by Heretic

5. Comment #192072 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 12:25 pm

 avatarMuslims have become increasingly litigious. Many of them are using our own revulsion against prejudice as a cover to spread their doctrines, unchecked.


They whine about discimination, yet continue to espouse hateful doctrine behind closed doors. It seems to me Muslims are happy to use the extensive rights in a free country to propagate Islam, only to turn and deny these very rights to others. It is the height of selfishness and hypocrisy.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

6. Comment #192075 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 12:26 pm

 avatar

I'm not a fan of the whole of the Bill of Rights


I don't want to get off on a side bar here but I'm honestly curious to hear why anyone would object to the Bill of Rights. What Amendments in particular do you not like and why?

Other Comments by FightingFalcon

7. Comment #192076 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 12:27 pm

 avatarheretic,




What don't you like about the bill of rights?

The right to due process?

The right to not be forced to incriminate yourself?


Which one?

Other Comments by al-rawandi

8. Comment #192079 by Big T on June 12, 2008 at 12:28 pm

Right on, Fighting Falcon! The First Amendment rocks!

Other Comments by Big T

9. Comment #192080 by Epinephrine on June 12, 2008 at 12:31 pm

 avatarI like the Canadian view better, frankly. Freedom of speech, up to certain limits. You can't incite hatred, for example. There are always limits on free speech, even in the USA. You can't threaten to kill people, you can't yell "I have a bomb" in an airport, and you can't tell a judge in court to fuck himself, you can't slander one another... and the Canadian rules are no different from these restrictions.

In case the article didn't communicate this: You can say mean and hateful things, you just can't incite hatred. We're just as free to swear, tell each other off and so on.

I don't think the article violates hate laws though, so it should be fine. That's a group getting touchy about things that aren't about hate.

Other Comments by Epinephrine

10. Comment #192081 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on June 12, 2008 at 12:33 pm

Britain has barely even a conception of Freedom of Speech. Incitement to Hatred, libel laws ...

Other Comments by ThoughtsonCommonToad

11. Comment #192083 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 12:34 pm

 avatar


In case the article didn't communicate this: You can say mean and hateful things, you just can't incite hatred. We're just as free to swear, tell each other off and so on.


Enjoy your ability to say mean and hateful things for the near future until the Human Rights Tribunal hands down its verdict. With a 100% conviction rate, you can be guaranteed that your RIGHT to publicly criticize religion will soon be coming to an end.

Other Comments by FightingFalcon

12. Comment #192086 by Colwyn Abernathy on June 12, 2008 at 12:38 pm

 avatar
They whine about discimination, yet continue to espouse hateful doctrine behind closed doors. It seems to me Muslims are happy to use the extensive rights in a free country to propagate Islam, only to turn and deny these very rights to others. It is the height of selfishness and hypocrisy.


It's also taught in the Quran. We'd all get along if ONLY we'd submit to the will of Allah. Fortunately, many of us have the ability to reason and think...as well as the guts to criticise, lampoon, and ridicule.

Other Comments by Colwyn Abernathy

13. Comment #192088 by 82abhilash on June 12, 2008 at 12:39 pm

Lot of people have got it wrong here, especially the non-US people here. The Bill of Rights does not grant rights to the people of the US. It protects them by abridging the government's capacity to infringe on the people's rights. The rights itself are inherent (self-evident and inalienable). The document protects those inherent rights by directing the functioning of the government. I would invite everyone to read the document.

Also note the ninth amendment (The US Bill of rights are the first ten amendments to the US constitution) states.


"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."


Which means one must recognize that people may have other rights not mentioned in the US constitution and thereby not protected. But people have it all the same and if they feel it is of supreme importance that those rights be protected, they can spell it out and have the constitution amended to incorporate it.

Other Comments by 82abhilash

14. Comment #192089 by Epinephrine on June 12, 2008 at 12:39 pm

 avatarWe'll see. If they rule against Macleans it will be a sad day indeed.

I think the freedom to express oneself is important (crucially so), but just as in the examples of death threats, slander, and so on, it's not an absolute. Hopefully the typical Canadian perspective of the spirit of the law will prevail.

Other Comments by Epinephrine

15. Comment #192093 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 12:44 pm

 avatarColwyn,





It is no coincidence that Islam means "submission" and the word for "peace" (salam) comes from the same root. Peace is achieved when someone submits. The language is a key to understanding how people think.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

16. Comment #192109 by Peacebeuponme on June 12, 2008 at 1:04 pm

compensate Muslims for injuring their "dignity, feelings and self-respect."
These muslims need to grow some fucking bollocks and stop being such babies.

Jesus christ. Hurt feelings? Fucking get over yourself.

If we on this website acted this way, we would spend all our waking hours in court suing each other.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

17. Comment #192119 by rod-the-farmer on June 12, 2008 at 1:18 pm

 avatarWhat was missing from the complaint was a clear statement of exactly HOW their

"dignity, feelings and self-respect."

were "injured". This is another case of "I am offended". Too effing bad. What the book seems to say, and what the Macleans article reported, all seems to be quite true. If they don't like the truth, tough. Change those things, and you could complain about falsehoods. Otherwise, get stuffed. I hope I have made my personal feelings clear on this.

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

18. Comment #192120 by prettygoodformonkeys on June 12, 2008 at 1:20 pm

 avatarA little embarrassed about this Canadian law.
It is a crime to deny the Holocaust in Canada, Germany and France
The Holocaust happened. Inciting people to believe other than the historical truth is illegal because it incites people to act on lies.

In the same vein:

The Koran actually exists, and it says the infidel must be killed. Inciting people to prosecute those who just report what it says should be illegal as well.

Other Comments by prettygoodformonkeys

19. Comment #192125 by SilentMike on June 12, 2008 at 1:26 pm

5. Comment #192072 by al-rawandi

Muslims have become increasingly litigious.


Actually, for muslims, that can be seen as an improvement over the traditional tactic of going into a violent frenzy.

Other Comments by SilentMike

20. Comment #192126 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 1:27 pm

 avatar

The Holocaust happened. Inciting people to believe other than the historical truth is illegal because it incites people to act on lies.


But that's absolutely ridiculous! Freedom of speech says nothing about you having to say correct or proper speech.

It's my right as an American to go to any street corner and say that the Holocaust was a lie invented by Jews. Or that World War II never happened. Or that we never landed on the Moon...

All of those ideas may be stupid but I'm allowed to say them. I've never understood anti-Holocaust laws or laws that ban Nazi regalia/Mein Kempf. You don't learn from history by trying to white wash it and pretend like it never happened.

Other Comments by FightingFalcon

21. Comment #192127 by Heretic on June 12, 2008 at 1:27 pm

 avatarFighting Falcon:
I don't want to get off on a side bar here but I'm honestly curious to hear why anyone would object to the Bill of Rights. What Amendments in particular do you not like and why?


& Al-Rawandi

I'm not objecting to the whole Bill of rights, just a bit of it. My particular gripe is with the Right to Bear Arms. It's not a right we have ever needed in Europe and we're better off without it - just look at the amount of gun crime in the US vs Europe. I do like most of the other bits though.

Other Comments by Heretic

22. Comment #192128 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 1:30 pm

 avatar


I'm not objecting to the whole Bill of rights, just a bit of it. My particular gripe is with the Right to Bear Arms. It's not a right we have ever needed in Europe and we're better off without it - just look at the amount of gun crime in the US vs Europe. I do like most of the other bits though.


I figured that you would object to that one.

Do you at least understand why Americans value that right so much? It's to protect ourselves against tyranny in government. It's hard for many Europeans to truly appreciate the rough and individualistic nature of America without living there. Caution toward government is in our blood - we are a nation founded on the rebellion against tyranny, after all.

Other Comments by FightingFalcon

23. Comment #192129 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on June 12, 2008 at 1:31 pm

It's my right as an American to go to any street corner and say that the Holocaust was a lie invented by Jews. Or that World War II never happened. Or that we never landed on the Moon...

Just listen to this says everything we can say only better

HITCHENS - FREEDOM OF SPEECH

Other Comments by ThoughtsonCommonToad

24. Comment #192130 by Lucas on June 12, 2008 at 1:31 pm

 avatar"compensate Muslims for injuring their 'dignity, feelings and self-respect.' "

The waaaaaambulance is on its way! Waah! Waah!

EDIT: Peace, you got to it first. I guess "ditto" will do.

al and FF - Yup. Spot on, both of you.

Other Comments by Lucas

25. Comment #192134 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 1:32 pm

 avatarheretic,



Oh no!


It's not a right we have ever needed in Europe and we're better off without it - just look at the amount of gun crime in the US vs Europe. I do like most of the other bits though.



Well it would have been nice to see Germans take to the street with arms to stop the Nazi rise to power, or its abuse of power.


The US has a lot of gun crime for a lot of reasons, reasons that don't always exist in Europe.


I will let FF handle the rest of this.




FF,




Holocaust denial laws are so ridiculous. Who cares if someone is stupid enough to deny the Holocaust, as long as they aren't attempting to incite another one, I don't really care.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

26. Comment #192136 by Peacebeuponme on June 12, 2008 at 1:38 pm

al
The US has a lot of gun crime for a lot of reasons, reasons that don't always exist in Europe.
I would genuinely be interested to hear about these reasons. Plenty of other countries allow citizens to bear arms, and don't have the gun problems experienced in the US. I liked Michael Moore's comment about the right to bear arms as well: its 'arms' not 'guns'. Individuals are not allowed to own nuclear bombs, so a line is being drawn somewhere. Why not discuss whether that line is before or after guns.

(This is not an advocacy of either gun control, or Moore, I'm just interested).

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

27. Comment #192137 by aratina on June 12, 2008 at 1:38 pm

 avatarThe article did not emphasize enough how the current US Supreme Court restricts the First Amendment to older people outside of certain institutions. Just look at its most recent ruling on the issue: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1637131,00.html And that was not even hate speech! No, the debate is never settled in America on constitutional rights, and that is the beauty of it. I personally think it is representative of America's lack of a monarchy. Very few nation states can actually say they have no ruler, king, queen, emperor, or empress who deserves respect, fortune and fame (and sometimes ultimate authority) simply for existing, although that is slowly changing as it did in Nepal and Russia.

Other Comments by aratina

28. Comment #192138 by crazy4blues on June 12, 2008 at 1:38 pm

 avatar
"Canadians do not have a cast-iron stomach for offensive speech," Mr. Gratl said in a telephone interview. "We don't subscribe to a marketplace of ideas. Americans as a whole are more tough-minded and more prepared for verbal combat."


Hilarious! Seriously, does this elitist really think the average Canadian would want anyone to say that of him? Has it really come to this for others in the West?

Other Comments by crazy4blues

29. Comment #192140 by SilentMike on June 12, 2008 at 1:39 pm

20. Comment #192126 by FightingFalcon

As it happens I agree with you. But if he knows he's lying when saying that the holocaust didn't happen and it's all a jewish plot to get sympathy, can I at least sue his pants off?

You can't go around slining mud at people without having to pay for it somehow. If I go around defaming X by spreading lies, and putting his life in disarray, he'll sue my ass off and be right to do so.


BTW. I absolutely agree about "Mein Kempf". People should know what Hitler really wrote if they want to. I don't like the idea of banning books.

Other Comments by SilentMike

30. Comment #192145 by prettygoodformonkeys on June 12, 2008 at 1:43 pm

 avatarThe commission's statement said:
"By portraying Muslims as all sharing the same negative characteristics, including being a threat to 'the West,' this explicit expression of Islamophobia further perpetuates and promotes prejudice toward Muslims and others."
The Koran said:
Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2

Give us victory over the disbelieving folk. 3:147

Fight the disbelievers and hypocrites. Be harsh with them. They are all going to hell anyway. 9:73

"He maketh none to share in His government." Democracy is heresy. Allah shares his government with no one. 18:26
And much, much more.

*ahem*
Fuck Islam.

Other Comments by prettygoodformonkeys

31. Comment #192149 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on June 12, 2008 at 1:46 pm

Banning material requires a censor. Give them an inch they will take a mile. The idea that power is benign is the reason that "sensible" restrictions on liberties are allowed throughout Europe. In Britain the numbers of days a suspected terrorist (vaguely enough defined to mean anything) can be held without charge was extended to 42 days (still has to be passed by the Lords however). Democracy without an American style constitution is dangerous because people are stupid.

Other Comments by ThoughtsonCommonToad

32. Comment #192151 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 1:48 pm

 avatarPeace,





Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world, little gun crime. Why is that?


To be honest the majority of violent crime occurs in African American communities. For instance African Americans are 13% of the population, while they make up 50% of the murderers in the US.

It is often drug related. In my city (Oakland) the are shootings every weekend. Mostly gangsters killing other gangsters. A DA told me they call those "two-fers", one thug is dead, the other goes to jail.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

33. Comment #192153 by Heretic on June 12, 2008 at 1:49 pm

 avatarFF:
Yes I do understand, and I think that the US was founded on very good principles, including the said right to bear arms. I just think in a modern context, it can lead to problems by having such easily available firepower.

Al:
I agree that Nazi Germany might have been a case for such a right. But an extreme case, of which I don't have sufficient knowlegde to fully explore in this instance.

Other Comments by Heretic

34. Comment #192154 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 1:49 pm

 avatar

I would genuinely be interested to hear about these reasons. Plenty of other countries allow citizens to bear arms, and don't have the gun problems experienced in the US. I liked Michael Moore's comment about the right to bear arms as well: its 'arms' not 'guns'. Individuals are not allowed to own nuclear bombs, so a line is being drawn somewhere. Why not discuss whether that line is before or after guns.


Allow me to answer for Al on this one.

One of the reasons why I believe America has relatively high violent crime rates is due to our extremely heterogeneous society. Compare us to a country like Iceland, which is extremely homogeneous, and you will see a tremendous difference in violence. I live in farm central (Suffolk, UK) where the populace is very homogeneous and I never have to worry about any form of violence.

I'm not arguing that whites are less prone to violence than other races. I'm saying that any homogeneous society will have lower amounts of violence than one that is highly diverse. While diversity is one of America's greatest benefits, it's also something that can unfortunately cause us problems. The greater differences you have among religion, ethnicity, language, etc. will create greater opportunities for friction to arise and for violence to occur.

American and European societies are also vastly different. Having lived in both I can clearly see how Europe lives in a very much post-WWII world while America largely escaped the horrors of that conflict being fought on its home soil. Europe was so dramatically changed after WWI and WWII that many Europeans have an extreme aversion to violence that Americans do not. We are much more willing to resort to violence in the pursuit of national policy interests and are not afraid to use violence to defend our personal and individual liberties.

European and American culture is vastly different and I consider it highly unfair to compare the two. You can't just argue that Europe has more restrictive gun laws and therefore they have less gun crime. Firstly, this doesn't take into account knife crime. Secondly, it does not take into account differences in culture at all, which is highly simplistic.

Other Comments by FightingFalcon

35. Comment #192156 by Border Collie on June 12, 2008 at 1:50 pm

Oh, boo f'ing hoo ... their "dignity, feelings and self-respect" ... what dignity? People with dignity don't do what M's do in the world today. No one with any feelings or self-respect would whine about what they're whining about. British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal ... whatever, sounds like a bunch of do-nothing, tax-payer-supported, self-righteous a*&holes to me. I'm offended every time I drive down the freeway, watch TV, listen to the radio or see a newspaper. Who cares? What do I do? Sue the world? Run crying to a tribunal? Waaa, waaa, waaa ... cry me a river.

So, all those counries forbid free speech and then forbid the display of Nazi stuff ... wow, notice anything? (Hey, the Nazis were evil, that's not my point.) Weren't the thought/word police big items in Nazi Germany or is my history incorrect?

France ... GET A F*&^%#G LIFE! God, don't you people have anything to do over there?! Oh, no, I'm sure a comment by no less than Brigitte Bardot is going to bring history to an end. Shut up, cook something. DAMN!!!!!!

"in an age where words have inspired mass murder and terrorism" What?! Words might "inspire" anything, but words do not jump out of mouths or jump off pages and murder people. Pathogenic people use words as excuses to murder people. Sing along ... The word is not the thing, the word is not the thing ... la, la, la ...

"laws banning hate speech seem to stem from a desire to promote societal harmony" ... ha, ha, ha. How about a desire to CONTROL society? I'd like to see proof of the the measure of "societal harmony" such promotes. I can guarantee you that the more you ban ANY speech the less harmony you will have.

If someone "offends" me or insults me, I just get in their face, if I feel like it. If I offend them, they can get in my face, if they feel like it. We can have a reasonable conversation and kiss and make up or not. I'll live, they'll live. I don't go whining to a tribunal. Waa, waa, Mr. Tribunal, somebody insulted me. I'm going to take my ball and go home. Crybaby a%$holes.

"Canada doesn't subscribe to a market place of ideas"? Damn, I learn something new every day. That is truly surprising. Why the hell don't they subscribe to such? Too few people working and paying taxes supporting too many do-nothings is my guess.

And we all know that Islam is a religion of peace. You can know this by watching the news. And the M's have never said that their goal is to destroy the West. We must have all be hallucinating! All you Islamophobes (sp?) should be ashamed of yourselves! I know that I am.

Last word on free speecch ... Being exposed to free speech is not pleasant much of the time. However, I despise the concept that some tax-payer supported bunch of do-nothing government idiots can decide to tell me what I can/cannot say. Because when you tell a person what they can/cannot say, you're also telling them what they can/cannot think. Morality cannot be legislated. No matter what some government jerk-off wants people to say/think or not say/think, people are going to say/think whatever they want. The more it's oppressed, the more it goes underground and the more venomous it gets. When it's in the open, it can disperse with the breeze, when it's suppressed it becomes more sharp, more poisonous, more dangerous.

Lastly, thank goodness for this forum! I never rate anyone's writings on this site. However, anyone can rate my stuff anyway you want. I don't care. What is "troll", "spam" and "offensive" anyway? Like a bunch of free thinkers give a s&%t.

Other Comments by Border Collie

36. Comment #192157 by Peacebeuponme on June 12, 2008 at 1:50 pm

TOCT
Just listen to this says everything we can say only better

HITCHENS - FREEDOM OF SPEECH
Exactly. That speech should be part of the school curriculum and then prettygoodformonkeys wouldn't say such silly things.

Post #192149 is a cracker also.

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37. Comment #192159 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 1:51 pm

 avatarFF,





I usually make the diversity argument. Black gangs fighting with Mexican gangs is pretty common here in Oakland. Their neighborhoods often border one another.

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38. Comment #192160 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 1:52 pm

 avatar


As it happens I agree with you. But if he knows he's lying when saying that the holocaust didn't happen and it's all a jewish plot to get sympathy, can I at least sue his pants off?

You can't go around slining mud at people without having to pay for it somehow. If I go around defaming X by spreading lies, and putting his life in disarray, he'll sue my ass off and be right to do so.


Slander/Libel against a person is of course illegal.

Slander/Liberal against an entire group is something totally different. If I wrote a book claiming that Muslims were responsible for the Middle East turning into a backwards society, that would be constitutionally protected free speech.

I would not support your right to sue a Holocaust denier who argues that Jews invented the Holocaust to gain sympathy. While the very idea is horrible and idiotic, it deserves a spot in the marketplace of ideas. You don't create an intelligent, open and free society by restricting ideas and speech.

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39. Comment #192163 by thewhitepearl on June 12, 2008 at 1:55 pm

 avatar"compensate Muslims for injuring their "dignity, feelings and self-respect.""

waaah waaah...There it is again the "feelings" defense..

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40. Comment #192164 by Peacebeuponme on June 12, 2008 at 1:55 pm

al
Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world, little gun crime. Why is that?
That's the question I am asking.
To be honest the majority of violent crime occurs in African American communities. For instance African Americans are 13% of the population, while they make up 50% of the murderers in the US.

It is often drug related. In my city (Oakland) the are shootings every weekend. Mostly gangsters killing other gangsters. A DA told me they call those "two-fers", one thug is dead, the other goes to jail.
Is it really as simple as that? Only masser can have a gun, not the cotton picker?

Switzerland of course have a very popular racist party.

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41. Comment #192165 by MelM on June 12, 2008 at 1:55 pm

Note that there are comments allowed for this article. The number of comments is now above 370 and, from looking through them, it's obvious that we are not ready to give up freedom of speech.

http://community.nytimes.com/article/comments/2008/06/12/us/12hate.html?s=1&pg=1

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42. Comment #192168 by Peacebeuponme on June 12, 2008 at 2:03 pm

FF
One of the reasons why I believe America has relatively high violent crime rates is due to our extremely heterogeneous society. Compare us to a country like Iceland, which is extremely homogeneous, and you will see a tremendous difference in violence. I live in farm central (Suffolk, UK) where the populace is very homogeneous and I never have to worry about any form of violence.
Having been to Iceland I know what you mean, but Suffolk is hardly representative of the UK. We do have London, Manchester, Bradford. Every bit as mixed as parts of America. I wouldn't pick a Pennsylvanian amish community as representative of the US.
American and European societies are also vastly different.
I imagine they are.
Having lived in both I can clearly see how Europe lives in a very much post-WWII world while America largely escaped the horrors of that conflict being fought on its home soil. Europe was so dramatically changed after WWI and WWII that many Europeans have an extreme aversion to violence that Americans do not.
That is an interesting point. Of course the war was 60 years ago, and guess what? Our younger generation seem increasingly violent (though that may be due to the natural inclination to view current times as worse than past times)
EÂŁuropean and American culture is vastly different and I consider it highly unfair to compare the two. You can't just argue that Europe has more restrictive gun laws and therefore they have less gun crime. Firstly, this doesn't take into account knife crime. Secondly, it does not take into account differences in culture at all, which is highly simplistic.
I didn't want to compare the two, just understand why gun crime is such a problem in the US, even amongst other gun-friendly nations.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

43. Comment #192169 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 2:04 pm

 avatarPeace,






Anyone can own a gun, provided they pass a background check. Felons may not purchse, own, or possess a firearm. Most gun crimes are committed by people who are prohibited from owning a firearm.

I sleep with a shotgun next to my bed, precisely because I live in Oakland, and when there are riots (which may well happen) and the police are understaffed by 100 officers, I intend to not be looted and killed.

When you call 911 in Oakland, sometimes the police don't even show up. It is somewhat lawless, and I keep a gun close to protect myself and my property from wanton violence. I think this is legitimate and no one should stop me. And I have also thought about joining the police force to help stop some of this nonsense, since I complain about it so much. But being a police officer in Oakland is EXTREMELY dangerous.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

44. Comment #192172 by Peacebeuponme on June 12, 2008 at 2:10 pm

al
Most gun crimes are committed by people who are prohibited from owning a firearm.
That is necessarily true of the UK as well. Because we have no legal handguns, and fewer legal shotguns/rifles, there is less opportunity for this. I understand your position entirely though. I'm glad I feel safe just locking my door, even though I do not live in an especially glamourus part of London.

I mentioned Moore's "nuclear bomb" argument before. What is your reaction to that?

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

45. Comment #192175 by Lucas on June 12, 2008 at 2:14 pm

 avatar"Is it really as simple as that? Only masser can have a gun, not the cotton picker?"

Awfully predictable and petty reaction. From what I can tell, Al is just stating the facts, with no judgment, racist or otherwise, implied. There are of course myriad social reasons that explain these facts, but I'm not an expert, so I'll leave it. Sufficed to say, all sorts of historical injustices have indeed occurred, but even with complete sympathy and empathy toward those causes and the victims of such injustices, usually one dude shooting another has nothing to do with anything other than greed or rage, neither of which are excused by social ills.

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46. Comment #192176 by SilentMike on June 12, 2008 at 2:17 pm

Slander/Liberal against an entire group is something totally different.


I'm not big on group rights. I wouldn't bestow upon a group the right to be "offended". But are groups not made of individual people too? I believe that is what class action suites are about.

All I'm saying is if you can prove someone knew that he was lying, and did it intentionally to hurt a group of people, this should be grounds for legal action by members of that group hurt. This is by no means an easy thing to prove, but if you do manage it, that should be enough. If someone slams all jews or blacks or baseball fans, by knowingly spreading vicious lies (though lies are probably not required for slammin the last group effectively), he should not enjoy the protection of the freedom of speech and opinion just because he chose to take aim at a wide field of targets.

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47. Comment #192178 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 2:19 pm

 avatarPeace,





People shouldn't weapons of mass destruction, they should be allowed to protect themselves in a reasonable way. The meaning of the amendment is seen when you look at the weapons available in the 18th century, they were personal weapons, muskets and rifles... what were used to fight the british. I feel like personal weapons should be permitted.

A nuclear weapon is useless to expel an intruder.

London probably has a well staffed police department, Oakland does not. And although I live in a good neighborhood, when people riot they may take the antics up town.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

48. Comment #192179 by Peacebeuponme on June 12, 2008 at 2:22 pm

Lucas
Is it really as simple as that? Only masser can have a gun, not the cotton picker?
Awfully predictable and petty reaction
Forgive me, I'm just trying to canvass opinion and get an understanding. The stats in UK show black people causing a disproportionate level of crime as well (excepting honourable white crimes such a paedophilia). I don't think we can stop there though, whereas al, who stated those facts in response to my question, seemed to. I know full well he is no racist, and actually one of the most fair-minded, though forthright, people here, having conversed with him many times.

I also know he is a big boy, and can look after himself.

My facetious remark, though intended to be mildly humourous, may have been misplaced in this context though, and for that, I apologise.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

49. Comment #192180 by alovrin on June 12, 2008 at 2:23 pm

 avatar
It's hard for many Europeans to truly appreciate the rough and individualistic nature of America


HAha, after watching Biggest Loser or American Idol, with all those "rough and individualistic" people, methinks this is a fantasy of backcountry folk, who talk slooowwww.
Just exercising my rights, and looking out for a falcon, rawindi shit storm.

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50. Comment #192181 by mordacious1 on June 12, 2008 at 2:23 pm

A fellow takes a short nap, then Josh post all this...

Where do I begin? A joke of course.

"American courts would not stop a planned march by the American Nazi Party in Skokie, IL , in 1977...".

"I hate Illinois Nazis!" Elwood Blues, from The Blues Brothers.

edit: or was that Jake?

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