









Unlike Others, U.S. Defends Freedom to Offend in Speech
2. Comment #192067 by JamesDB on June 12, 2008 at 12:19 pm
3. Comment #192068 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 12:21 pm
4. Comment #192070 by Heretic on June 12, 2008 at 12:23 pm
5. Comment #192072 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 12:25 pm
6. Comment #192075 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 12:26 pm
I'm not a fan of the whole of the Bill of Rights
7. Comment #192076 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 12:27 pm
8. Comment #192079 by Big T on June 12, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Right on, Fighting Falcon! The First Amendment rocks!9. Comment #192080 by Epinephrine on June 12, 2008 at 12:31 pm
10. Comment #192081 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on June 12, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Britain has barely even a conception of Freedom of Speech. Incitement to Hatred, libel laws ...11. Comment #192083 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 12:34 pm
In case the article didn't communicate this: You can say mean and hateful things, you just can't incite hatred. We're just as free to swear, tell each other off and so on.
12. Comment #192086 by Colwyn Abernathy on June 12, 2008 at 12:38 pm
They whine about discimination, yet continue to espouse hateful doctrine behind closed doors. It seems to me Muslims are happy to use the extensive rights in a free country to propagate Islam, only to turn and deny these very rights to others. It is the height of selfishness and hypocrisy.
13. Comment #192088 by 82abhilash on June 12, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Lot of people have got it wrong here, especially the non-US people here. The Bill of Rights does not grant rights to the people of the US. It protects them by abridging the government's capacity to infringe on the people's rights. The rights itself are inherent (self-evident and inalienable). The document protects those inherent rights by directing the functioning of the government. I would invite everyone to read the document.
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
14. Comment #192089 by Epinephrine on June 12, 2008 at 12:39 pm
15. Comment #192093 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 12:44 pm
16. Comment #192109 by Peacebeuponme on June 12, 2008 at 1:04 pm
compensate Muslims for injuring their "dignity, feelings and self-respect."These muslims need to grow some fucking bollocks and stop being such babies.
17. Comment #192119 by rod-the-farmer on June 12, 2008 at 1:18 pm
"dignity, feelings and self-respect."
18. Comment #192120 by prettygoodformonkeys on June 12, 2008 at 1:20 pm
It is a crime to deny the Holocaust in Canada, Germany and FranceThe Holocaust happened. Inciting people to believe other than the historical truth is illegal because it incites people to act on lies.
19. Comment #192125 by SilentMike on June 12, 2008 at 1:26 pm
5. Comment #192072 by al-rawandiMuslims have become increasingly litigious.
20. Comment #192126 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 1:27 pm
The Holocaust happened. Inciting people to believe other than the historical truth is illegal because it incites people to act on lies.
21. Comment #192127 by Heretic on June 12, 2008 at 1:27 pm
I don't want to get off on a side bar here but I'm honestly curious to hear why anyone would object to the Bill of Rights. What Amendments in particular do you not like and why?
22. Comment #192128 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 1:30 pm
I'm not objecting to the whole Bill of rights, just a bit of it. My particular gripe is with the Right to Bear Arms. It's not a right we have ever needed in Europe and we're better off without it - just look at the amount of gun crime in the US vs Europe. I do like most of the other bits though.
23. Comment #192129 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on June 12, 2008 at 1:31 pm
It's my right as an American to go to any street corner and say that the Holocaust was a lie invented by Jews. Or that World War II never happened. Or that we never landed on the Moon...
24. Comment #192130 by Lucas on June 12, 2008 at 1:31 pm
25. Comment #192134 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 1:32 pm
It's not a right we have ever needed in Europe and we're better off without it - just look at the amount of gun crime in the US vs Europe. I do like most of the other bits though.
26. Comment #192136 by Peacebeuponme on June 12, 2008 at 1:38 pm
alThe US has a lot of gun crime for a lot of reasons, reasons that don't always exist in Europe.I would genuinely be interested to hear about these reasons. Plenty of other countries allow citizens to bear arms, and don't have the gun problems experienced in the US. I liked Michael Moore's comment about the right to bear arms as well: its 'arms' not 'guns'. Individuals are not allowed to own nuclear bombs, so a line is being drawn somewhere. Why not discuss whether that line is before or after guns.
27. Comment #192137 by aratina on June 12, 2008 at 1:38 pm
28. Comment #192138 by crazy4blues on June 12, 2008 at 1:38 pm
"Canadians do not have a cast-iron stomach for offensive speech," Mr. Gratl said in a telephone interview. "We don't subscribe to a marketplace of ideas. Americans as a whole are more tough-minded and more prepared for verbal combat."
29. Comment #192140 by SilentMike on June 12, 2008 at 1:39 pm
20. Comment #192126 by FightingFalcon30. Comment #192145 by prettygoodformonkeys on June 12, 2008 at 1:43 pm
"By portraying Muslims as all sharing the same negative characteristics, including being a threat to 'the West,' this explicit expression of Islamophobia further perpetuates and promotes prejudice toward Muslims and others."The Koran said:
Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2And much, much more.
Give us victory over the disbelieving folk. 3:147
Fight the disbelievers and hypocrites. Be harsh with them. They are all going to hell anyway. 9:73
"He maketh none to share in His government." Democracy is heresy. Allah shares his government with no one. 18:26
31. Comment #192149 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on June 12, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Banning material requires a censor. Give them an inch they will take a mile. The idea that power is benign is the reason that "sensible" restrictions on liberties are allowed throughout Europe. In Britain the numbers of days a suspected terrorist (vaguely enough defined to mean anything) can be held without charge was extended to 42 days (still has to be passed by the Lords however). Democracy without an American style constitution is dangerous because people are stupid.32. Comment #192151 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 1:48 pm
33. Comment #192153 by Heretic on June 12, 2008 at 1:49 pm
34. Comment #192154 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 1:49 pm
I would genuinely be interested to hear about these reasons. Plenty of other countries allow citizens to bear arms, and don't have the gun problems experienced in the US. I liked Michael Moore's comment about the right to bear arms as well: its 'arms' not 'guns'. Individuals are not allowed to own nuclear bombs, so a line is being drawn somewhere. Why not discuss whether that line is before or after guns.
35. Comment #192156 by Border Collie on June 12, 2008 at 1:50 pm
Oh, boo f'ing hoo ... their "dignity, feelings and self-respect" ... what dignity? People with dignity don't do what M's do in the world today. No one with any feelings or self-respect would whine about what they're whining about. British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal ... whatever, sounds like a bunch of do-nothing, tax-payer-supported, self-righteous a*&holes to me. I'm offended every time I drive down the freeway, watch TV, listen to the radio or see a newspaper. Who cares? What do I do? Sue the world? Run crying to a tribunal? Waaa, waaa, waaa ... cry me a river.36. Comment #192157 by Peacebeuponme on June 12, 2008 at 1:50 pm
TOCTJust listen to this says everything we can say only betterExactly. That speech should be part of the school curriculum and then prettygoodformonkeys wouldn't say such silly things.
HITCHENS - FREEDOM OF SPEECH
37. Comment #192159 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 1:51 pm
38. Comment #192160 by FightingFalcon on June 12, 2008 at 1:52 pm
As it happens I agree with you. But if he knows he's lying when saying that the holocaust didn't happen and it's all a jewish plot to get sympathy, can I at least sue his pants off?
You can't go around slining mud at people without having to pay for it somehow. If I go around defaming X by spreading lies, and putting his life in disarray, he'll sue my ass off and be right to do so.
39. Comment #192163 by thewhitepearl on June 12, 2008 at 1:55 pm
40. Comment #192164 by Peacebeuponme on June 12, 2008 at 1:55 pm
alSwitzerland has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world, little gun crime. Why is that?That's the question I am asking.
To be honest the majority of violent crime occurs in African American communities. For instance African Americans are 13% of the population, while they make up 50% of the murderers in the US.Is it really as simple as that? Only masser can have a gun, not the cotton picker?
It is often drug related. In my city (Oakland) the are shootings every weekend. Mostly gangsters killing other gangsters. A DA told me they call those "two-fers", one thug is dead, the other goes to jail.
41. Comment #192165 by MelM on June 12, 2008 at 1:55 pm
Note that there are comments allowed for this article. The number of comments is now above 370 and, from looking through them, it's obvious that we are not ready to give up freedom of speech.42. Comment #192168 by Peacebeuponme on June 12, 2008 at 2:03 pm
FFOne of the reasons why I believe America has relatively high violent crime rates is due to our extremely heterogeneous society. Compare us to a country like Iceland, which is extremely homogeneous, and you will see a tremendous difference in violence. I live in farm central (Suffolk, UK) where the populace is very homogeneous and I never have to worry about any form of violence.Having been to Iceland I know what you mean, but Suffolk is hardly representative of the UK. We do have London, Manchester, Bradford. Every bit as mixed as parts of America. I wouldn't pick a Pennsylvanian amish community as representative of the US.
American and European societies are also vastly different.I imagine they are.
Having lived in both I can clearly see how Europe lives in a very much post-WWII world while America largely escaped the horrors of that conflict being fought on its home soil. Europe was so dramatically changed after WWI and WWII that many Europeans have an extreme aversion to violence that Americans do not.That is an interesting point. Of course the war was 60 years ago, and guess what? Our younger generation seem increasingly violent (though that may be due to the natural inclination to view current times as worse than past times)
EÂŁuropean and American culture is vastly different and I consider it highly unfair to compare the two. You can't just argue that Europe has more restrictive gun laws and therefore they have less gun crime. Firstly, this doesn't take into account knife crime. Secondly, it does not take into account differences in culture at all, which is highly simplistic.I didn't want to compare the two, just understand why gun crime is such a problem in the US, even amongst other gun-friendly nations.
43. Comment #192169 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 2:04 pm
44. Comment #192172 by Peacebeuponme on June 12, 2008 at 2:10 pm
alMost gun crimes are committed by people who are prohibited from owning a firearm.That is necessarily true of the UK as well. Because we have no legal handguns, and fewer legal shotguns/rifles, there is less opportunity for this. I understand your position entirely though. I'm glad I feel safe just locking my door, even though I do not live in an especially glamourus part of London.
45. Comment #192175 by Lucas on June 12, 2008 at 2:14 pm
46. Comment #192176 by SilentMike on June 12, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Slander/Liberal against an entire group is something totally different.
47. Comment #192178 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 2:19 pm
48. Comment #192179 by Peacebeuponme on June 12, 2008 at 2:22 pm
LucasForgive me, I'm just trying to canvass opinion and get an understanding. The stats in UK show black people causing a disproportionate level of crime as well (excepting honourable white crimes such a paedophilia). I don't think we can stop there though, whereas al, who stated those facts in response to my question, seemed to. I know full well he is no racist, and actually one of the most fair-minded, though forthright, people here, having conversed with him many times.Is it really as simple as that? Only masser can have a gun, not the cotton picker?Awfully predictable and petty reaction
49. Comment #192180 by alovrin on June 12, 2008 at 2:23 pm
It's hard for many Europeans to truly appreciate the rough and individualistic nature of America
50. Comment #192181 by mordacious1 on June 12, 2008 at 2:23 pm
A fellow takes a short nap, then Josh post all this...
1. Comment #192064 by Colwyn Abernathy on June 12, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Hell's yesh! Makes it easier to Spot the Fucktard. As in Ghostbusters 2, "Being mean and treating everyone else like dirt is every New Yorker's God given right." Steyn mebbe right. We might be the last bastion of freedom of expression, and that's frightening.
Those prominent legal scholars can bite my crank. The solution to a bad idea is a better one, not forcing the bad idea to be quiet.
EDIT:
Then you're an idiot. We're talking about SPEECH. "Vicious attacks" in speech aren't including bayonettes and firearms. Sticks and stones, baby. I guess words DO hurt you. Wah, wah.
Other Comments by Colwyn Abernathy