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Tuesday, June 17, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Oystein Elgaroy - the Christian defender who became an Atheist

by Even Gran

From fritanke.no, translated by Strappado

A short while ago professor of astrophysics Øystein Elgarøy was a profiled liberal Christian who defended his faith in articles and at debates. But then he discovered that he actually agreed more with his opponents.



The first time the undersigned got acquainted with Øystein Elgarøy was at a debate about faith and science at a pub in Oslo, autumn 2005.

Elgarøy sat there with all his ballast as a professor of astrophysics and assured the audience that there are no conflicts between his field of research and God's existence. On the contrary, what we know of the cosmos points to there in fact being a god, he thought. The arguments from the Atheists in the panel, among others professor of biology, Dag Hessen, bounced off.

A little later, in 2006, the book "Tro og vitenskap – sammenheng eller sammenstøt"("Faith and science – connection or conflict") was released by the Christian publisher Lunde Forlag. Elgarøy contributed here too, and there was no doubt that his answer to the title was "connection". (http://www.lundeforlag.no/bok.cfm?id=1496 )

– There is a beautiful symmetry and simple laws that govern nature. [...] Where I see God's hand clearest is in the beauty of these laws of nature, said Elgarøy in the interview he gave together with the nun and astrophysicist Katrina Pajchel in the beginning of the book.

But all this happened before he one Sunday in January this year heard a debate between the Atheist Christopher Hitchens and the theologian Alister McGrath.

Most in agreement with the opponent
– Suddenly I realized that it was much easier to agree with Hitchens than with McGrath. To put it short, I agreed more with the person I should disagree with. I then realised that I had to take the consequence of this. I could no longer live on an illusion. You might say that this Sunday became a turning point of sorts, Elgarøy says to Fritanke.no

He says that this of course had matured within him for quite a while. The disappointment over the book "The Dawkins Delusion" by the same McGrath was one of the factors. In this book McGrath tries to rebut the Atheist Richard Dawkins' attack on faith in the book "The God Delusion".

– I read McGrath's book hoping to find some good answers to the challenges from Dawkins, but the book was a genuine disappointment. While reading it struck me that "is this really the best answer a theologian can come up with?" I don't think he came up with any good arguments. It was a surprisingly weak answer in many ways, says Elgarøy.

Irrational to believe without reason
He adds that even if both Dawkins and Hitchens are imprecise and may not come up with the most sophisticated arguments against religious faith, it's hard for Christians to come up with good answers to the main accusation that there's no empirical evidence for Christianity, or any other religion, being true.

– And that's not enough for me. As a scientist and astrophysicist I am used to rejecting hypotheses that don't cut it. That's what after a while made it hard for me to hold on to the hypothesis about God. I could not support it rationally, and realised in the end that I could not live with that there should be an exception for just this question. That's probably what I realised that Sunday in January, he says.

– So you're not an adherent to the widespread idea that religion and science are "two non-overlapping spheres"?

– I used to think so. But I can't really see any reason to believe that there's anything more than one reality. Religious allegations then becomes allegations about this one reality, and then they will also have to accept critical examination, as well as being rejected if they don't measure up.

– You say that you could not support the faith in God rationally. Are you saying that it is irrational to believe in God?

– Yes, I think so. It is irrational to hold on to something that simply is not the best explanation, and which has no empirical support. When one is examining the Christian notion of God, it just ends up as a fanciful idea, he says.

Elgarøy points out that there are so many other strange things too, that you're forced to accept if you want to be a Christian. A lot of stuff goes with it that makes it even harder to believe.

– Healing and miracles for example. As a scientist I can't believe that things like this happens now, and then it becomes difficult to believe that it might have happened 2000 years ago as well. Another problem is why one isn't instead a Muslim or Hindu. How can Christians say that they are right and the others are wrong, when they don't have any empirical evidence to build upon? When I was a Christian I could not come up with any good answers to this, he says.

The existence of evil was also something that bothered Elgarøy.

– There's so much going on in the world that is inconsistent with the existence of a benevolent and almighty god, and I think the Christian attempts to answer this are far-fetched and hapless, he says.



A relief to be spared from defending the faith
After a while Elgarøy realised that things fall better into place if the starting point is that there's no god, and that everything is created by humans.

– Reality and theory cohere better this way. If humans have created God and religions, and not the other way round, then it explains most of the paradoxes that Christians are struggling with today. As an example, it's not a problem that evil exists if everything around us is a result from natural processes that don't separate between good and evil. All the variations within and between religions, are no mystery either if your starting point is that only humans have created religions. But for a person with a Christian view of life, all of this is a great problem, he says.

– How did you react personally to the loss of faith?

– It was no sad experience. Absolutely not. It felt liberating. Suddenly I was free to use my energy on better things than defending self-contradictory religious dogmas and justify that I still called myself "Christian". It was a relief to let go of this, he says

He adds that he never really had any strong religious experiences as many other believers report they've had. Therefore, this has not been a loss for him either.

Article in "Kirke og kultur" started the process
Øystein Elgarøy grew up in a family that was active in "Den evangelisk-lutherske frikirke", and during his teens he was a rather conservative Christian.

– In the beginning I found all the answers I needed in the Bible, but as I grew older, and started to study, I realised that conservative Christianity did not measure up. I became more and more liberal, and in the end there wasn't much left other than that I "believed that there perhaps exists a god". And then it starts wearing a little thin, he says.

However, it's only a few years ago that he really got interested in the relationship between faith and science.

– Around 2004-2005 I was asked to write an article for the periodical "Kirke og kultur" ("Church and culture") about the relationship between Christian faith and my field of research, cosmology. Before this I merely separated faith and science into two spheres, and didn't think much more about it. But through the work with this article, I was forced to think about the borders for my field of research and my own faith. The work made me more aware of what one can really know. You might say that this article in Kirke og Kultur was the beginning of my departure from Christian faith, Elgarøy says.



[b]Liberal Christian relativism becomes meaningless[/b]
Elgarøy doesn't fancy the liberal Christianity with an abstract concept of God and which says that whether God "exists in reality" really isn't that important.

– That's not enough for me. This relativism that the liberal Christians are up to is just nonsense. Whether or not there's a god, is an important question. That God exists "in the eye", "in the language" and "as a concept" there's no doubt about. But that's after all not what Christianity is about. The question is whether or not there exists a personal god that that has created everything we know. If one can't make oneself to believe in this concrete personal image of God, then one is not Christian, as I see it.

He can't do other than see this as an either/or question.

– Either one believes in this god, or one doesn't. Either Christianity is true, or it's untrue. There's nothing between, Elgarøy says.

– Do you think that liberal Christians' relativisation and abstraction of God is an attempt to make their own faith easier to defend?

– Yes, I think that's true for many of them. It was like this for me at least. I resorted to this strategy to escape from the notion of God that I after a while found more and more difficult to defend rationally, that is the belief in the really existing, personal, creation and conscious god. But one can't get around that this personal notion of God is of vital importance for the Christian faith, he says.

– Mankind is the only source of moral and ethics.
On the way out the astrophysicist is asked if he wants the latest paper version of Fri Tanke, that just arrived from the printers. But it's not needed, we learn.

– I probably get it in the mail. You see I just joined Human-Etisk Forbund, he says.

– What made you do it?

– It felt natural. It's very important for me that it's possible to have morality and ethics without God. Not even when I considered myself a Christian I based my morality and ethics in the Bible and the word of God. As I see it, it's only the ethics that starts with humans and human reason that holds water, he says.


Facts
Øystein Elgarøy (born 1972) is a professor in Astrophysics. He was only 27 years old when he did his Ph.D. a work he received H.M. the King's gold medal for. Elgarøy had by then published eleven scientific works. In 2004 he received Fridtjof Nansen's award for younger scientists.

In the 1990s Elgarøy was active in Norges Kristelige student– og skoleungdomslag, and has during the 2000s made a word for himself in the public as a defender of Christian faith.

Now he has abandoned the faith and joined Human-Etisk Forbund.(The Norwegian Humanist association)

Forum topic

Comments 1 - 50 of 252 |

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1. Comment #194999 by SomeDanGuy on June 17, 2008 at 2:12 pm

Hurray! The campaigns of the 'new atheists' ARE working. If only logic could prevail for every believer...

(Heh, broken link side-stepped. We're a crafty bunch around here.)

Other Comments by SomeDanGuy

2. Comment #195004 by rod-the-farmer on June 17, 2008 at 2:19 pm

 avatarOne down, 2 billion to go. And another vote for the sometimes abrasive & arrogant Christopher Hitchens. His way DOES work, sometimes.

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

3. Comment #195010 by tahustvedt on June 17, 2008 at 2:24 pm

 avatarYay Norway. lol

That's good news. Hopefully he'll make others think about it as well.

I've never heard of fritanke.no before, I'll have to check it out.

Other Comments by tahustvedt

4. Comment #195014 by mordacious1 on June 17, 2008 at 2:26 pm

Boy, finding an emminent scientist who is a christian is hard enough, but when he's from Norway...that is rare.

edit: Re-reading this it sounds like scientists are rare in Norway, what I meant was that christians are rare, especially astrophysicists. I think McGrath reduced that number by 100%.

Other Comments by mordacious1

5. Comment #195017 by Double Bass Atheist on June 17, 2008 at 2:26 pm

 avatar
And that's not enough for me. As a scientist and astrophysicist I am used to rejecting hypotheses that don't cut it. That's what after a while made it hard for me to hold on to the hypothesis about God. I could not support it rationally, and realised in the end that I could not live with that there should be an exception for just this

Finally!
What I can't understand is why ALL so-called "scientists" with a creationist bias can't make this same simple connection.

Other Comments by Double Bass Atheist

6. Comment #195020 by irate_atheist on June 17, 2008 at 2:35 pm

 avatarDear Oystein -

Welcome back to reality.

Yours faithlessly

irate_atheist

Other Comments by irate_atheist

7. Comment #195024 by Mark Smith on June 17, 2008 at 2:52 pm

Well done Alister McGrath I say!

Do you think he knows about his latest convert?

Other Comments by Mark Smith

8. Comment #195030 by prettygoodformonkeys on June 17, 2008 at 3:10 pm

 avatar
Suddenly I was free to use my energy on better things than defending self-contradictory religious dogmas and justify that I still called myself "Christian".
I hope he likes using his energy to dismantle these dogmas. We can sure use him.

Other Comments by prettygoodformonkeys

9. Comment #195036 by Thurston on June 17, 2008 at 3:20 pm

 avatarI find this account very moving. His rejection of comfortable and unsupported ideas for the hard reality offered by science is quite profound. In a world that is suspicious of changes of mind and heart, Professor Elgaroy should be applauded for his courage.

Other Comments by Thurston

10. Comment #195038 by Friend Giskard on June 17, 2008 at 3:26 pm

 avatar
...even if both Dawkins and Hitchens are imprecise and may not come up with the most sophisticated arguments against religious faith...


I'm used to hearing that Richard fails to address the most sophisticated arguments for religion (which are always only alluded to, but never spelled out, because they obviously don't exist), but I've never heard of these more sophisticated and precise arguments against religion, which apparently Richard and Hitchens have never heard of either. I wonder what they could be. Perhaps they are akin to the sophisticated arguments against fairies.

Other Comments by Friend Giskard

11. Comment #195042 by MarcLindenberg on June 17, 2008 at 3:31 pm

 avatarMan, McGrath's book was terrible... I read it expecting maybe some good arguments, but man it sucked.

That's the only way to put it. It sucked.

Other Comments by MarcLindenberg

12. Comment #195045 by tieInterceptor on June 17, 2008 at 3:33 pm

 avatarbravo,

a person who looked at the evidence and accepted the conclusion, whatever it is, like a good scientist.

The fact that this does not happen by the thousands everyday, is what puzzles me. Religions seem so obviously man made that is a mystery to me how come they still exist.

maybe humanity's average IQ is lower than I thought, or childhood indoctrination is too hard to erase once it takes hold, maybe fear of death is too pervasive... probably all of the above to some degree.

anyway,

got to thank McGrath for writing such a weak and uninspired book that it can actually turn belivers into disbelievers, not a small feat.

:)

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

13. Comment #195048 by mordacious1 on June 17, 2008 at 3:36 pm

Thurston

Is your avatar a picture of Barbara Bush punting little Georgie when he was little? It would explain alot.

Other Comments by mordacious1

14. Comment #195055 by Nova on June 17, 2008 at 3:53 pm

Atheism sure is smashing ahead, while we get well known Christian personalities like this guy and Dan Barker, all the Christians have are people who sorta kinda didn't believe in God so they were atheists - well maybe agnostics or deists - well they didn't really think about it... but then they found Christ and were saved! The conversion examples they give are pathetic.

MarcLindenberg:
Man, McGrath's book was terrible... I read it expecting maybe some good arguments, but man it sucked.

That's the only way to put it. It sucked.


Really? You actually read it? The whole book?! Then your more resilient than me. I think just flicking through it singed my retinas and I've barely looked at it since.

Other Comments by Nova

15. Comment #195057 by Roy_H on June 17, 2008 at 4:02 pm

 avatarfor those who have not read the McGrath book, here is a quote :-
"It is not the gaps in our understanding of the world that point to God, but rather the comprehensibility of scientific and other forms of understanding that requires an explanantion. In brief the argument is that explicability itself requires explanation"
eh?

Other Comments by Roy_H

16. Comment #195058 by phil rimmer on June 17, 2008 at 4:05 pm

 avatarI think you're all being very unkind to McGrath. I think he wrote the very best book he could. Sadly, he just had lousy material to work with, religion.

Hitch 1 McGrath 0

Yay!!

Other Comments by phil rimmer

17. Comment #195060 by black wolf on June 17, 2008 at 4:05 pm

 avatarThe 'sophisticated arguments against religious faith' line always puzzles me. It is a fact that not a single theologian or other interested scholar has succeeded in presenting a compelling case against the so-called unsophisticated arguments, so why does everybody, Billy and his dog keep demanding or expecting more sophisticated ones? There is absolutely no need to refute waffle in detail when calling waffle waffle and sophistry sophistry is fully sufficient. Elgarøy is not the first ex-theist who is honest and self-respecting enough to be led by the evidence, away from opinions that have none. And he'll not be the last for a long while.
Even the best arguments in favor of faith ultimately rely on presupposing the existence of God as a fact or an axiom. From there, countless arguments can be constructed which seemingly prove the need for a God. No matter how big it is, no matter how old it is, a circle remains a circle. That combined with a belief in belief is all that the theist can come up with. Many of the greatest thinkers in history have struggled with this and failed, century after century.

Other Comments by black wolf

18. Comment #195062 by Duarf Dog on June 17, 2008 at 4:10 pm

Onward and upward.

Other Comments by Duarf Dog

19. Comment #195065 by mixmastergaz on June 17, 2008 at 4:18 pm

 avatarSo not all debates are useless eh?

I respect his honesty. The feelings he describes after his de-conversion remind me of how I felt after losing my faith.

Perhaps he could add a testimony to converts' corner...

Other Comments by mixmastergaz

20. Comment #195067 by Frankus1122 on June 17, 2008 at 4:22 pm

 avatarComment #195057 by Roy_H

"It is not the gaps in our understanding of the world that point to God, but rather the comprehensibility of scientific and other forms of understanding that requires an explanantion. In brief the argument is that explicability itself requires explanation"


Thanks Roy_H!
Now I actually have a headache.

Other Comments by Frankus1122

21. Comment #195069 by black wolf on June 17, 2008 at 4:31 pm

 avatarNice one, Roy_H. Our minds, through communication and reflection, compile a concept that we can understand. And that's what McGrath thinks needs an explanation (which is coincidentally exactly the same one he has for everything else)? I installed a program on my computer that someone (yes, someone who exists) wrote to make pictures appear on my screen. Wow, what's this? The program actually makes pictures appear on my screen! How can that be? How can my computer do that? Oh, I know, magicmandunnit.
Is that seriously what passes for a sophisticated argument in theological circles (sic)?

Other Comments by black wolf

22. Comment #195070 by mdowe on June 17, 2008 at 4:32 pm

 avatarIt might might be a little tough for the rich to enter the Kingdom of Heaven ... but they have a cake-walk compared to the intelligent. Welcome to real world Professor Elgaroy, it's really not such a bad place to be!

N.B. I've always hated the term 'losing your faith', it seems so negative for a description of what is anything but a loss. Somebody is waking fully to the beauty of reality!

Other Comments by mdowe

23. Comment #195075 by tank on June 17, 2008 at 4:51 pm

Don't be an apostate. It is not to late, as long as you draw breath, to turn around and praise God, the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the one and only Almighty God.


Take care to not venture so far in your thoughts of folly and evil. This is not a game. It will determine where your soul will rest in eternity.
Come to Jesus Christ and praise his name. Belief, Praise, Repentance and Love will do wonders for you.

Please change your minds, please look into the truth and re-discover how awesome Jesus Christ is and what you can accomplish with Him working through you. You know, in your heart, it is true.

May God bless you and keep you.

Other Comments by tank

24. Comment #195077 by mdowe on June 17, 2008 at 4:54 pm

 avatarAh ... thanks for the entertaining post tank! (We know you really mean well, so the best of luck to you.)

Other Comments by mdowe

25. Comment #195080 by info_dump on June 17, 2008 at 4:59 pm

 avatarBravo! Good to have another heretic in the fold.

Other Comments by info_dump

26. Comment #195081 by Frankus1122 on June 17, 2008 at 5:01 pm

 avatarDear tank,



God does not exist.


Love,
Frankus

Other Comments by Frankus1122

27. Comment #195090 by tieInterceptor on June 17, 2008 at 5:31 pm

 avataris tank for real?

"thinking" with your heart could be the problem, the ancients thought that we used our hearts to think, since it beats faster when in stress...

that same people wrote the myths you still believe in, seriously... snap out of it, scaremongering with images of eternal damnation is as low brow as it gets,

and if you don't get it, just read in wikipedia about the Duat,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duat

how scary the underworld of the Egyptian religion is to you?


same thing, different myth

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

28. Comment #195092 by Neuro on June 17, 2008 at 5:38 pm

 avatarIf only all people could reflect on their own beliefs in an objective manner...

I think a lot of people recognize these arguments, and they really do not have a good response to them. However, they are so emotionally attached to their religion, I suspect that they cannot let go just because of the aforementioned attachment and feel badly if they do.

Oh well.

Other Comments by Neuro

29. Comment #195094 by Cartomancer on June 17, 2008 at 5:53 pm

 avatar
Don't be an apostate... re-discover how awesome Jesus Christ is
In order to be an apostate one actually has to have been a part of the religion in the first place, and in order to rediscover something one actually has to have discovered it in the first place. I'm sick of this pathetic assumption among moron theists like yourself that everyone must have started out in their silly little cult of the magic sky goblin and atheism is therefore the abandonment of it. Many of us have never believed in your or any other brand of theistic nonsense at all and merely laugh at the narrow-mindedness of its world view.

But yes, Oystein Elgaroy, wonderful story - a textbook case of reason and rationality winning out in the end. He could well be the poster-boy of the New Atheism if he didn't look like one of those faces in children's activity books that you can turn upside-down and see a different face the other way up...

Other Comments by Cartomancer

30. Comment #195095 by robaylesbury on June 17, 2008 at 5:54 pm

 avatarTank, I respect your genuineness and once upon a time would have said exactly the same thing.

Trouble is, a little scratching beneath the surface reveals Christianity for what it is, a confused and contradictory bronze age myth. Human curiosity is the razor of death for faith of all kinds. None of them can withstand close scrutiny.

This leaves you with a choice and a challenge. Take the time to read and study all the arguments that challenge your notion of God. Step away from your cognitive bias and take an objective look at what you believe.

Investigate the history, read a little Sam Harris, a little Daniel Dennett. And most important of all look at the world around you. If you can reconcile the sheer face of human suffering with the existence of your diety, then good luck to you. I know I couldn't.

Other Comments by robaylesbury

31. Comment #195096 by Laurie Fraser on June 17, 2008 at 5:57 pm

 avatarNice one, Tank - you should have included "Accept the Lord Jesus Christ into your hearts as your own personal saviour." That always has a good ring to it.

Unfortunately, old mate, it's all poppycock. Come over to the bright side.

Other Comments by Laurie Fraser

32. Comment #195098 by Mr. Forrest on June 17, 2008 at 6:01 pm

Don't be an apostate. It is not to late, as long as you draw breath, to turn around and praise God, the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the one and only Almighty God.


Take care to not venture so far in your thoughts of folly and evil. This is not a game. It will determine where your soul will rest in eternity.
Come to Jesus Christ and praise his name. Belief, Praise, Repentance and Love will do wonders for you.

Please change your minds, please look into the truth and re-discover how awesome Jesus Christ is and what you can accomplish with Him working through you. You know, in your heart, it is true.

May God bless you and keep you.


POES LAAAAAW TIIIIMME!

the fundy mind in action:
1. Read or partially extract all non-useful information/arguments from a given text.
2. Disregard empirical evidence
3. Disrespect the subject of the article by making it clear that you haven't got the SLIGHTEST idea about him, his reasoning or his mental/emotional state.
4. Make lowbrow irrational emotional appeal overwhelmingly likely to fail due to 3.
5. Make what would be, and rightly should be, considered very crude and intolerably arrogant, sadistic and quite frankly disturbing allusions to hellfire and brimstone.
6. Finish off by blessing people, something that has no benefit and makes you look like the enormously inflated and arrogant cockjockey you truly are.

Did I miss anything?

Other Comments by Mr. Forrest

33. Comment #195100 by robaylesbury on June 17, 2008 at 6:09 pm

 avatarWhilst I of course disagree with Tank its probably worth bearing in mind that he genuinely believes what he has said and he has done so with the best of intent. I sometime wonder that when we're too hostile we occupy the chalk man on the ground that Sam Harris refers to. We just sound like angry atheists.

Other Comments by robaylesbury

34. Comment #195102 by fizhburn on June 17, 2008 at 6:20 pm

 avatarrobaylesbury,

In general I agree with a measured approach. However, recall that tit for tat remains a most profitable strategy in one-on-one competition. I'm not sure how strong an analogy holds between message boards and the prisoner's dilemma, but I do think tank's drive-by godbotherment can be responded to fruitfully hilariously appropriately by a bit of "Oh no you di'n't" glibness.

Other Comments by fizhburn

35. Comment #195104 by Don_Quix on June 17, 2008 at 6:26 pm

 avatar
We just sound like angry atheists.

That's because some of us are angry atheists! And with good reason! :D

Other Comments by Don_Quix

36. Comment #195105 by Mr. Forrest on June 17, 2008 at 6:26 pm

Robaylesbury... while you're probably right that tank means well, he just effectively asked whom ever he was adressing, im assuming the norwegian guy, to ignore his own reasoning and return to a totalitarian cult that makes a mockery of human intellect and dignity.

And why?
Due to a basic one-two combo know as the Standard Religious Emotional Appeal (SREA):
A. God is awesome!
And
B. You'll burn FOREVER if you don't!

How anyone remains calm in the face of this I literally cannot understand. I might sound very angry to people, but consider this: Would you give up this dgree of mental, intellectual, emotional and, quite often, economical freedom, based on what can only be described as the most pitiful of drivel that the human mind has EVER created?

As for tank himself, I feel sad for him he has failed himself in such a profound way by falling to religion and/or never shaking the indoctrination of youth. I pity him even as he angers me.

Angry atheist... Hell yeah because it's an appropriate emotion when faced with such bald faced lying and blatant manipulation.

Other Comments by Mr. Forrest

37. Comment #195124 by secondsoprano on June 17, 2008 at 6:55 pm

Don't be an apostate. It is not to late, as long as you draw breath, to turn around and praise God, the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the one and only Almighty God.


Take care to not venture so far in your thoughts of folly and evil. This is not a game. It will determine where your soul will rest in eternity.
Come to Jesus Christ and praise his name. Belief, Praise, Repentance and Love will do wonders for you.

Please change your minds, please look into the truth and re-discover how awesome Jesus Christ is and what you can accomplish with Him working through you. You know, in your heart, it is true.

May God bless you and keep you.


Tank, the old "god is awesome" and "you'll burn for eternity" combo which Mr. Forrest so succinctly diagnosed is really not going to cut it here, you know. Nor are you going to get anywhere with patronising suggestions that we are "playing a game". You are going to have to do a lot better than that.

Most of the people on this site are mind-blowingly intelligent, and know more about science, theology, philosophy and practically anything else you could name than you could possibly imagine. You have an incredible opportunity here, if you hang around and keep reading, to have the same epiphany as Prof. Elgaroy and realise that truth and happiness can be found, not by embracing myths, fears and threats, but by opening your mind to logic.

I hope you are mature enough to accept the challenge, and I look forward to welcoming you to the wonderful freedom from religion, fear and indoctrination that intelligent athiesm can bring.

[Edit. P.S. - what Frankus said]

Other Comments by secondsoprano

38. Comment #195135 by chuckgoecke on June 17, 2008 at 7:30 pm

 avatar
Comment #195014 by mordacious1 on June 17, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Boy, finding an emminent scientist who is a christian is hard enough, but when he's from Norway...that is rare.

edit: Re-reading this it sounds like scientists are rare in Norway, what I meant was that christians are rare, especially astrophysicists. I think McGrath reduced that number by 100%.


I believe a particularly dark genre of rock music, called Death Metal, was spawned in Norway. A friend, who's much more up on all the flavors of Metal rock, told me its because of the heavy handedness of the the Norwegian society's religion, that the youth feel compelled to rebel in the most extreme way possible. This seems a bit odd, since I thought Norway is surrounded by some of the least religious European states, Sweden, Denmark, Holland, etc.

Anyway, its good to get another one over here, on the "Dark Side", basking in the light of reason.

Other Comments by chuckgoecke

39. Comment #195148 by dragonfirematrix on June 17, 2008 at 7:53 pm

 avatarWelcome Oystein.

Other Comments by dragonfirematrix

40. Comment #195177 by Tom Coward on June 17, 2008 at 8:45 pm

Following up on chuckgoecke, I have heard from several sources that the Norwegians are the most conservative of the Scandanavians, with a relatively high percentage of evangelical and conservative church members.

Other Comments by Tom Coward

41. Comment #195186 by GordonYKWong on June 17, 2008 at 9:03 pm

 avatarWhile certain aspect of this article is encouraging (namely it confirms that McGrath's refutation is largely equine shite), I am quietly pessimistic about the premise of enlightenment reaching the masses.

Dr. Øystein Elgarøy is obviously an highly intelligent man. Yet he only saw fit to scrub himself clean of childhood indoctrination at this stage in his life. Better late than never I agree, but there are other highly intelligent humans who still prefer the baby pacifier that is religion to the wonderment of reality.

They do not engage the "bad guys", they insulate themself with doctrine and community, and they like it just this way. We cannot change that, as much as we try.

Other Comments by GordonYKWong

42. Comment #195192 by mordacious1 on June 17, 2008 at 9:21 pm

chuck

According to Ir-religion.com, over 70% of Norway is atheist.

edit: according to Wiki, the Church of Norway says only 9% are atheists. They also state that only 3% go to church more than once a month. Doesn't sound like they take the christian stuff that seriously.

Other Comments by mordacious1

43. Comment #195193 by SPS on June 17, 2008 at 9:23 pm

"In brief the argument is that explicability itself requires explanation"


He may as well have followed with "Our answer is lack of explanation, which we call God".

I would hazard a guess of explicability as 'redefined boundaries of prior comprehension by means of reflective measurement over time'.

tank,

If you are sincere, ask yourself, can you question your faith without returning to it as the answer? If you return, be honest with yourself by reflecting on what thoughts and emotions lead you back to it. Is your faith brought by observation of a consistent truth or the fear of doubt and where it may lead?

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44. Comment #195194 by prettygoodformonkeys on June 17, 2008 at 9:26 pm

 avatartank

Let your thoughts go wherever they want to, and you will get some clues as to who you really are, and what you want to do, and be.

Don't worry; there is no one peeking through the ceiling to see if you are good enough, or are praising *him* enough - there's just us!

It's great, there's nothing like it!

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45. Comment #195195 by Goldy on June 17, 2008 at 9:35 pm

Funny, eh? The athiest turned believer had a hand in turning the believer into an atheist :-)
Tank
Come to Jesus Christ and praise his name. Belief, Praise, Repentance and Love will do wonders for you.

Please change your minds, please look into the truth and re-discover how awesome Jesus Christ is and what you can accomplish with Him working through you. You know, in your heart, it is true.

That sounds remarkably like a personal opinion. Can you provide evidence for this?

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46. Comment #195199 by catskill on June 17, 2008 at 9:55 pm

 avatarI wish one wacko posting would not hijack a whole thread of comments.


This is good evidence as to why we need intelligent material FOR atheism to always be available. This guy was making his own way towards reality over time but having books and lectures promoting non-belief is something concrete to analyze. Also as much as we would like to deny it, knowing there are many others with the same non-belief is important. This just proves that many critics of "militant" atheism, or in fact of anyone who professes non-belief, is due to the fear that common sense might actually take over.

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47. Comment #195201 by Goldy on June 17, 2008 at 10:02 pm

I wish one wacko posting would not hijack a whole thread of comments.

Be nice if they could just give us reasonable and rational reasons as to their choice for us. God is lurve and Jesus is the main dude just doesn't ring true to me. And if an intelligent believer can see the flaws in the whole religion argument and indeed have an ex-atheist theologian accentuate those flaws in the argument, what chance does someone have merely by imploring us to follow Jesus going to have.
And, something that really annoys me, why always Christians? Where are the Muslims, the hindus, the Buddhists, the animists, the Wiccans, the Jews, etc? Surely in the great mass of wordly religions, there muct be intelligent people who would like to clearly and rationally explain why there is a god or gods and why we are to follow them.

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48. Comment #195203 by 8teist on June 17, 2008 at 10:05 pm

 avatarTank,
You know in your heart it is FUCKING BULLSHIT!

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49. Comment #195210 by EvidenceOnly on June 17, 2008 at 10:48 pm

Tank,

You are free to believe anything you want but you should know that faith is belief for which no evidence exists.

A growing number of us require extraordinary evidence before we accept extraordinary claims.

All religions, by their very nature, fail this test. It is pure fiction and not very entertaining at it.

Stop asking gods created by mankind in its own image (and mostly abandoned by now) to bless those who reject fiction as truth and moral compass.

Remember, if you pray anyone and your wish comes through, you claim proof that your god exists but if your wish does not come through, you claim that you did either not pray enough or that you don't deserve the favor yet.

Don't waste your time asking any god to bless us.

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50. Comment #195211 by Loke on June 17, 2008 at 11:01 pm

Hi everyone,

I am the astrophysicist in the article above, and I would just like to say that I have enjoyed reading the comments here (especially the one by Cartomancer about my looks. I am painfully aware of it, and whenever I need an argument against ID I just look in the mirror).

From the interview it seems that McGrath (or Hitchens) deserves the credit for my conversion to reason. That is only partly true. It was the result of a long period of reading and thinking. One of the things I found the most difficult was the emotional aspect. Having been raised as a Christian, I felt like I was betraying my family by giving up my faith. I think I might not be the only one to have this experience.

Oystein

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