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Saturday, June 28, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Evangelical grunts

by Guardian - Matthew Harwood

Thanks to Linda Ward Selbie for the link.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jun/27/military.religion

Evangelical grunts
Religious groups are training American soldiers to view the world as a clash of civilisations

A US sniper uses the Qur'an as target practice in Baghdad. A US Marine hands out coins to residents in Fallujah that ask in Arabic on one side: "Where will you spend eternity?" The other side is inscribed with a Biblical verse: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16." An American soldier who performed two tours in Iraq is denied promotion when his superiors learn he is an atheist, after he refuses to pray during Thanksgiving dinner (pdf). An anti-Islamic poster adorns the door of the Military Police office at Fort Riley, Kansas, featuring a quote from conservative pundit Ann Coulter: "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity." And as the New York Times reported this week, some cadets at West Point and the Naval Academy feel pressured by their schools to adopt a Judeo-Christian worldview.

Some may say these are isolated incidents of religious intolerance, but evidence is mounting that a virulent evangelical Christianity is spreading through the American armed forces, breaking the constitutional barrier between church and state and worse, like our jihadist enemies, presenting the "war on terror" as a clash of civilisations between the Christian west and the global Muslim community.

The process of creating good Christian soldiers starts early, according to the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF), a group fighting to maintain the secularism of the armed forces. At Fort Jackson army base in Columbia, South Carolina, the director of the Christian outreach group Military Ministry, Frank Bussey, tells soldiers that "government authorities, police and the military = God's ministers". Photographs exist of Bussey's student-soldiers posing in their fatigues with rifle in one hand and Bible in the other, an eerily similar pose to jihadist martyrs with their rifles and Qur'ans. His Bible study classes are known as "God's Basic Training", where attending cadets learn "when you join the military, you've really joined the ministry."

Military Ministry was established in 1964 by Bill Bright, the founder of the controversial fundamentalist Christian organisation, Campus Crusade for Christ, because, according to the group's website, "he recognised the military as a special audience for evangelistic outreach."

But what the group means is that soldiers are prime for easy indoctrination. In 2002, according to MRFF, the Military Ministry's website carried a brutally honest description of the group's strategy:

Young recruits are under great pressure as they enter the military at their initial training gateways. The demands of drill instructors push recruits and new cadets to the edge. This is why they are most open to the "good news". We target specific locations, like Lackland AFB [Air Force Base] and Fort Jackson, where large numbers of military members transition early in their career. These sites are excellent locations to pursue our strategic goals.


An investigation by MRFF in 2006 into Military Ministry's activities at Lackland Air Force Base and Fort Sam Houston, an army base, uncovered evidence that Military Ministry staffers have successfully converted incoming soldiers with the approval of top commanders.

In another episode in 2002, Campus Crusade for Christ made a promotional video at the US Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, Colorado, featuring three cadets and two chaplains in uniform, thus violating a prohibition against endorsing a non-federal entity while in uniform. The video also talks of "spiritual programmes" on Monday nights encouraged by the academy, and Campus Crusade's campus director Scott Blom calls the cadets he indoctrinates "government paid missionaries" for Christ.

A similar promotional video for Campus Crusade's Christian Embassy, a social networking organisation for Washington DC's evangelical elites, also caused the department of defence's inspector general to rebuke seven military officers. His report (pdf) last year said that each officer's appearance in a promotional video for the group while "in uniform with rank clearly displayed, in official and often identifiable Pentagon locations" conferred the appearance that the defence department endorsed Christian Embassy.

As Jeff Sharlet wrote in Harper's Magazine in 2006, in the video Major General Jack Catton "says that he sees his position as an adviser to the Joint Chiefs of Staff as a 'wonderful opportunity' to evangelise men and women setting defence policy. 'My first priority is my faith,' he says. 'I think it's a huge impact. ... You have many men and women who are seeking God's counsel and wisdom as they advise the chairman [of the joint chiefs] and the secretary of defence.'"

But the proselytising doesn't end at the Air Force Academy or within the halls of the Pentagon, according to the New York Times. West Point and the Naval Academy are guilty too. Nine midshipmen at the Naval Academy recently asked the American Civil Liberties Union to petition the school to abolish daily prayer at lunch where attendance is mandatory. The academy denied their request. Sources ranging from seven cadets, two officers and a former chaplain at West Point told the Times that those that didn't attend religious services were sometimes called "heathens". Mandatory banquets begin with prayer.

MRFF's founder and director, Mike Weinstein, a former legal counsel in the Reagan administration, says that by giving such evangelical Christian organisations and sentiment such privileged access, the defence department is "creating a fundamentalist Christian Taliban." While this may sound like hyperbole, creating soldiers that have no tolerance or respect for other faiths or belief systems has real consequences.

Militarily, it slowly creates a soldiery divided by sectarianism, when it should be unified to fight for one and one thing only: the United States constitution.

Overseas, the impact is more immediately felt.

When news broke last month regarding the shooting of the Qur'an, 1,000 Afghans rioted; three people died. Also, the news that an American sniper was riddling their holy book with bullets didn't go over well with the Sunni tribes the US had cobbled together into a coalition, known as the Sunni Awakening, to fight al-Qaida and its fellow travellers in Iraq. The episode led Major General Jeffery Hammond to go prostrate before tribal leaders in Radwaniyah and say: "I come before you here seeking your forgiveness. In the most humble manner I look in your eyes today and I say please forgive me and my soldiers."

Incidents such as these can be exploited by al-Qaida and other jihadists to argue, rather convincingly, that the United States is not in a war against terrorism but a war against Islam. When peaceful Muslims come to buy into this narrative, al-Qaida and its fellow travellers become heroic defenders of the faith, and a new generation of Muslims become vulnerable to radicalisation.

In the statement apologising for the sniper's conduct, the military said the incident was "not representative of the professionalism of our soldiers or the respect they have for all faiths". This may be so, but until portions of the American military stop giving preferential access and treatment to evangelical fundamentalist Christian organisations like Campus Crusade for Christ's Military Ministry, jihadists will have evidence that the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are nothing more than a 21st-century crusade to reconquer Muslim lands for Christ's salvation, led by a president who wears his crucifix on his sleeve.

Robert Kaplan describes American soldiers endearingly as "imperial grunts", but this fundamentalist subsection of American soldiers is more akin to "evangelical grunts" - soldiers who believe that there is no difference between American national interest and god's interest and are zealous to spread this message through the force of arms.

American national security can only suffer from such a divisive belief.


Comments 1 - 45 of 45 |

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1. Comment #200741 by Nick6742 on June 28, 2008 at 7:27 am

 avatarI think the author misses the point in this. Indoctrination in the military is a problem, but I don't believe it's not the major reason why so many soldiers are evangelical.

Most soldiers come from poor to low-middle class families. They are very often evangelical before they enter the service.

Other Comments by Nick6742

2. Comment #200779 by mordacious1 on June 28, 2008 at 8:24 am

The problem is, many churches, including the mormans, consider serving in the military as fulfilling a mission. Mormans are supposed to go on a "mission" when they are young adults, serving in the military qualifies for completing this requirement. Their sole purpose for being there is to make converts.

Other Comments by mordacious1

3. Comment #200788 by Lev-CapeTown on June 28, 2008 at 8:44 am

 avatarWas jus browsing conservapedia.com. Looked up FLAT EARTH THEORY as a joke and came up with the following sentence:::

"The Flat Earth theory was mostly invented and promoted by evolutionists for the purpose of slandering Christians."

Those religious fools will use any lie they can to keep people in the dark... What lying pigs

Other Comments by Lev-CapeTown

4. Comment #200790 by TheGreatBZ on June 28, 2008 at 8:45 am

I was under the impression that the soldier who shot up the Koran was simply unaware that it was a Koran, since the book was in Arabic he couldn't read it.

Other Comments by TheGreatBZ

5. Comment #200818 by steve8282 on June 28, 2008 at 9:16 am

I am so happy that the nukes are in the hands of people that are right with jesus.

Fuck Me!

Other Comments by steve8282

6. Comment #200822 by TeraBrat on June 28, 2008 at 9:23 am

I was under the impression that the soldier who shot up the Koran was simply unaware that it was a Koran, since the book was in Arabic he couldn't read it.


I'm sure it was reported VERY differently by the Muslim media.

Other Comments by TeraBrat

7. Comment #200831 by blakjack on June 28, 2008 at 9:49 am

 avatarDuring my time in the (British) Royal Air Force, we occasionally had parades during which prayers were said. Before the Christian prayers, there was the order "Jews and Buddhists - Fall Out". ( I think Buddhist were included). There was certainly no option for other faiths or indeed for non-believers. In those days - the 1960s - I wasn't too bothered about having to put up with prayers, although I certainly didn't mumble the "amens". Now 40 years later and a confirmed atheist, I would certainly raise objections.

Does anyone know the British military today handles parades involving prayers?

However, our Air Force wasn't rigid in imposing religion. By my late twenties, I had become a confirmed atheist and began to irked by official forms that asked me to tick the appropriate box "religion". As there didn't seem to be anything that fitted my views, eventually I spoke to my Commanding Officer to ask for advice. "Do what I do Jack. Cross out all the boxes and write in NONE". In fact, even today that is more correct than filling in "Atheist" in reply to a question "What is your religion? Atheism isn't a religion. It is a LACK of religion.

As an aside, I once flew a senior padre to one of the out stations in the Middle East. We had a few drinks (well, more than a few) that evening and senior padre certainly didn't persuade me of the value of Christianity. I think I probably did a better job arguing my views!

Jack

Other Comments by blakjack

8. Comment #200834 by catskill on June 28, 2008 at 9:58 am

 avatarThis article reads like a nightmare. Except its worse than a nightmare... its true.

Other Comments by catskill

9. Comment #200852 by He'sAVeryNaughtyBoy on June 28, 2008 at 10:38 am

Blackjack...
Fortunatly most modern military parades (or at least all the ones I've been in) no longer have prayers specfificaly aimed at the troops.
During freedom of the city marches and battle of Britain parades it is common for the cerremonies to be carried out in a church or cathedral, with accompanying bells and whistles in the form of mumbling prayers and singing depressing songs about subjecting yourself to the will of the almighty (bleugh!!). But at no point are you required to say or do anything with a religious bent - all you have to do is sit there. You don't have to take part in the songs or prayers if you don't wish.
In fact it's quite amusing that as the padre goes up and declares "Let us bow our heads in prayer.." everyone around us bows their heads but the majority of the RAF lads keep their heads up looking around at each other, bored, communicating through facial features the "When is this over, I want a beer" look.

There is only one time during your entire RAF career when you are FORCED (and I say that with capitals because it disgusts me so much) to acknowledge some sort of god, and unfortunatly it is when the lads are at their most innocent and dutiful. When you pass out of basic training you have your passing out parade in which a padre makes some horrible whining noises in the form of a prayer (it truely is pathetic). When the old fart stops talking you MUST shout back at him "With the grace of God I will!"

I did it many years ago and despised it, and this last year my little brother was made to do it as well. Straight after the parade he came up to me and said "What a load of bollocks", and I couldn't agree more.

Other Comments by He'sAVeryNaughtyBoy

10. Comment #200858 by PristinePanda on June 28, 2008 at 10:44 am

 avatarWhat does one expect? By now it's obvious that if you enlist in the US military you should be a Protestant Christian - there's no freedom of or from religion in the military, I'm sad to say, as much as there should be. It's an egregious violation of human rights, to say the least.

Other Comments by PristinePanda

11. Comment #200886 by phil rimmer on June 28, 2008 at 11:47 am

 avatarblakjack

I think it was in "Carry on Sargeant" (1958 UK movie) a new recruit was asked for his religion by an officer filling in his form.

"Church of England," replies the recruit.

The officer fills in the form, "Ag..nos..tic."

Other Comments by phil rimmer

12. Comment #200890 by Goodwithwood on June 28, 2008 at 12:06 pm

 avatarThese are the people who murdered Pat Tillman.

Other Comments by Goodwithwood

13. Comment #200934 by esuther on June 28, 2008 at 2:29 pm

I never quite grasped the role of religion and chaplains in the military. An army is a force of trained killers -- irrespective of what they end up doing or what euphemisms they use to describe what they do (i.e. defense, bringing democracy, securing the pipeline, blah blah). They are TRAINED to kill upon command, and that is their function.
I see no place whatsoever (in the military) for a religion of peace, which Christianity claims to be. A real Christian chaplain would stand before the troops and say "don't go!".
All the rest is just layer upon layer of bullshit.

Other Comments by esuther

14. Comment #200935 by 8teist on June 28, 2008 at 2:31 pm

 avatarWe got the fossils, we win........


er...

No, we got the ARMY, We Win.....

Other Comments by 8teist

15. Comment #200949 by Border Collie on June 28, 2008 at 3:16 pm

'special audience for evangelistic outreach'?
Seems like a captive audience to me.
The military is a cult anyway. This just makes it moreso. They only want 'sheeple', to borrow a word, so they're in favor of anthing that enhances the process. This has been going on for decades. The degree of such might be new. I don't know. Who's surprised? I'm not. It must be hell on the soldiers who aren't interested. Personally, I think their time would be better spent learning to be real warriors rather than Christian soldiers.

Other Comments by Border Collie

16. Comment #200975 by doglived on June 28, 2008 at 4:53 pm

 avatar
Comment #200934 by esuther: I see no place whatsoever (in the military) for a religion of peace, which Christianity claims to be. A real Christian chaplain would stand before the troops and say "don't go!".
All the rest is just layer upon layer of bullshit.
Spot on. The obvious contradiction boggles the mind.

Other Comments by doglived

17. Comment #201001 by chuckgoecke on June 28, 2008 at 6:01 pm

 avatarOnward Christian Soldiers... shudder!

Other Comments by chuckgoecke

18. Comment #201004 by jo5ef on June 28, 2008 at 6:22 pm

"The episode led Major General Jeffery Hammond to go prostrate before tribal leaders in Radwaniyah and say: "I come before you here seeking your forgiveness. In the most humble manner I look in your eyes today and I say please forgive me and my soldiers.""
It's difficult to judge the situation from a distance, but I don't think the Major General should have indulged the locals to this extent. At any rate it somewhat contradicts the article's premise.

Other Comments by jo5ef

19. Comment #201028 by dragonfirematrix on June 28, 2008 at 7:53 pm

 avatarWell, I think we might agree that the enlisted ranks of the military are mostly poor, likely less educated, and maybe even lower in the IQ area.

It should not surprise anyone that these soldiers are indoctrinated. I am not sure, but did Hitler do the same thing in his military, and did Hitler indoctrinate the kids into the brown shirts? I guess the Christians are trying to do the same thing to the children of America that the Islamic do to their children. Please let me know if I am wrong, but I think I am right.

We non-religious know what we must do to save America.

My question is: Are we non-religious going to wait for the self-inflicted horror by religion to occur in America before we act. Unfortunately, I think we will wait until we to are also victims of the religious.

Other Comments by dragonfirematrix

20. Comment #201040 by Lyshote on June 28, 2008 at 9:00 pm

This scares me.

Other Comments by Lyshote

21. Comment #201042 by Layla Nasreddin on June 28, 2008 at 9:02 pm

 avatar"Sky Pilot, how high can you fly/You'll never reach the sky"

What, you don't know that song ("Sky Pilot" by the Animals), about a chaplain blessing soldiers before sending them off to war? I think it fits perfectly...and I got it stuck in my head while reading this article.

Regarding the Qur'an, it's usually in a rather distinctive-looking cover; it doesn't look like just any book, so I'd be suspicious of the claim that he "didn't know" what it was. But I don't know enough to make any judgement.

Other Comments by Layla Nasreddin

22. Comment #201048 by J.C. Samuelson on June 28, 2008 at 9:30 pm

 avatarHaving been a member of the U.S. military for over 15 years, I can attest to the fact that evangelism goes on. In fact, prayers in connection with various ceremonies are commonplace. Still, I've never personally felt pressured to join in or conform to any particular spiritual model as a part of being in the military.

Currently, I'm in the Air National Guard, and can honestly say there is more of that sort of thing (evangelism, that is) going on in my present unit than I ever experienced in the Army or on active duty with the Air Force. Interestingly, according to a Christianity Today article from 2006, the proportion of those who claim "no religious preference" (i.e., unaffiliated and/or secular) is greater in the Air Force than among the general populace:

A survey conducted by the Air Force in June [2006] reveals that 0.6% of the 275,457 current enlistees describe themselves as "atheist" and that 17.8% have "no religious preference."


This is more than a full percentage point higher than the current Pew Forum estimate for the general populace (16.1% unaffiliated), although the percentage of atheists in the Pew Forum study is higher (1.6%).

As for intelligence, my initial, knee-jerk reaction is to rise to the defence of my fellow airmen. Of course, I am but 1 of 5.1% of my enlisted fellows who have a Bachelor's Degree or higher, so my perspective is somewhat skewed. Having said that, I believe that one has to look at the overall educational picture before one judges any group to be less well-educated or intelligent. Here is the current picture of the educational demographics of the U.S. Air Force:

Officer academic education
- 52 percent of the officers have advanced or professional degrees
-- 41.1 percent have master's degrees, 9.5 percent have professional degrees and 1.4 percent have doctorate degrees
-- 25.8 percent of company grade officers have advanced degrees, 18.7 percent have master's degrees, 6.8 percent have professional degrees and 0.3 percent have doctorate degrees
-- 85 percent of field grade officers have advanced degrees, 69.3 percent have master's degrees, 12.9 percent have professional degrees and 2.7 percent have doctorate degrees

Enlisted academic education
- 71.3 percent have some semester hours towards a college degree
-- 76 percent of Airmen
-- 78 percent of NCOs
-- 28 percent of senior NCOs
- 17.6 percent have an associate's degree or equivalent semester hours
-- 1.7 percent of Airmen
-- 17 percent of NCOs
-- 50 percent of senior NCOs
- 5.1 percent have a bachelor's degree
-- 1.7 percent of Airmen
-- 3.8 percent of NCOs
-- 18 percent of senior NCOs
- 0.8 percent have a master's degree
-- .02 percent of Airmen
-- .4 percent of NCOs
-- 4 percent of senior NCOs
- .01 percent have a professional or doctorate degree.

SOURCE: Air Force Demographics (current as of April 30, 2008)


It's important to point out, I think, that all Chaplains are officers, not enlisted. All of them. Furthermore, most of those "caught" in these types of scandals are officers (e.g., the Air Force Academy, the Christian Embassy debacle at the Pentagon, etc.). As it's more common for officers to be well-educated than it is for enlisted, that may well damage the idea that education has very much to do with this. Not only that, but we all know about compartmentalization. So, why would we ascribe lesser intelligence or education as a contributing factor to the willingness of these men & women to believe, when in fact we blame compartmentalization when someone of obviously high intelligence (such as a scientist) professes the same belief?

There are other comments here too that speak of an ignorance of the inner workings of the military, but as I've already digressed enough, I won't address those.

To get back on topic, I'll simply say that as the only professed atheist in my unit, it is difficult to stomach the somewhat infrequent occurrences of spiritual expression. However, as most everyone knows my affiliation, it's been a pleasant surprise to have had very few run-ins with religious members. In fact, soon I'll be petitioning the wing commander to allow some freethought pamphlets and secular-oriented (meaning no mention of god(s)) self-help materials to be posted next to similar, but religiously flavored materials already available in our wing diversity office. This will happen as soon as I've gathered/produced the materials. Quite frankly, I doubt there will be any resistance. It might surprise some, but free speech isn't that uncommon in the military (and is, in fact, supported by regulation - with some reasonable limitations due to our status as government employees), and I've never had the impression that the military wants automatons who simply follow orders.

I guess what I'm saying is, is that the American military isn't quite as religious (or stupid) as the article might suggest, and that while the activities of groups like Campus Crusade for Christ are alarming, the problem has not reached (and likely will not reach) epidemic proportions.

Just my two cents.

{Edit: For comparison, from the 2000 census:

21% of Americans had taken some college courses but had not earned a degree in 2000
15.5% had earned a bachelor's degree but no higher
8.9% earned graduate or professional degrees

Thus, speaking only for the Air Force, it is made up of people slightly better educated than the general populace.}

Other Comments by J.C. Samuelson

23. Comment #201076 by Christopher Davis on June 29, 2008 at 12:31 am

 avatarI've got mixed feelings on this.

As an atheist soldier deployed in Afghanistan I can attest that evangelicism is alive and well in the U.S. Army. However, I'm open about my views and I make no concessions to religion. When we have ceremonies that involve group prayer I do not bow my head. So far, no one has given me any shit or tried to convert me.

The only thing that I have had to endure was my Sergeant Major telling me that he thought atheism was a "mental weakness". I didn't argue because sometimes it's better to pick your battles.

What bothers me about this article is this statement...

"Incidents such as these can be exploited by al-Qaida and other jihadists to argue, rather convincingly, that the United States is not in a war against terrorism but a war against Islam."

Less than two weeks ago, two of my team-members were killed in a rocket attack. Seven more were wounded...three seriously. From the radio traffic we intercepted it is clear that the people who killed my friends did so out of religious conviction.

Not only that, but press releases in the Muslim world continuously report on the attacks as "blows against the Christian invaders", they brag about how many "cross worshippers" and "apostates" (Afghan soldiers, police, etc.) they kill, and they beg for Allah's continued support.

Whether we like it or not, in the eyes of the people trying to kill us, we are at war with Islam.

While I wholeheartedly agree that the idea that people of influence in our military would actively attempt to mould "warriors for Jesus" is repugnant, it is plain stupid to try and pretend that religion plays no part in this conflict.

Osama Bin Laden has repeatedly told us why he hates us...our government's support for Isreal, our failure to denounce China, Russia, and India for their acts against Muslims, and our refusal to leave Muslim lands.

To us these reasons sound political, to Bin Laden and those who support him they are religious.

The simple fact is, soldiers who are forward deployed are expected to walk on eggshells to avoid offending the religious sensibilities of Muslims.

The commanders who are allowing their troops to be sold on this idea that we are fighting a war for Jesus should be court-martialed and drummed out of the military. However, we shouldn't be expected to kowtow and kiss the Muslim worlds ass everytime one of our soldiers does something stupid.

I've never heard a single apology from anyone of status in the Muslim world for the nearly 5000 servicemen and women who have died at the hands of the radicals of Islam.

Other Comments by Christopher Davis

24. Comment #201152 by Ultraviolet G on June 29, 2008 at 7:53 am

Christopher:

I'm really sorry to hear about your team. I hope the injured soldiers recover quickly. Take care and get home safe. Whatever my opinions of Bush and his foreign policy may be, all the men and women of the military on these boards have my complete support.

Other Comments by Ultraviolet G

25. Comment #201154 by Gareth1 on June 29, 2008 at 7:56 am

Having been in the US Army for a good number of years, I find much in this article semi-true and/or hyperbolic. J.C Samuelson said it very well with his stats regarding the USAF. Assumptions concerning the demographics of the US military are all too often incorrect, and yet those making the assumptions feel absolutely no need to check their perceived "facts." Often, these same people will check, re-check, double-check, and then ask a neighbor when looking up some other substantive issue. The military? Obviously we all know more than we need to about the US military, we've been watching movies.

Apologies for the rant, this tends to be a pet peeve of mine. People are more than welcome to not like the military. When your dislike stems from false or unchecked assumptions, then you verge on the same behavior that people on this site accuse the religous of: willful ignorance of fact.

For the record, I am very much an atheist. To my knowledge I have never been subjected to any discriminatory practices due to my lack of religon. This might be because of the amazingly fair and impartial system that we in the Army have, or I might just not notice when it happens. I would go with the second part of that statement. Generally, I have found that religon is not a common topic of conversation. It might very well be in chapels, but as I am rarely in one...

Semi-true: insinuations that because there are hard-core religious zealots in the military that we are all out to indoctrinate our newbies in our favorite flavor of christianity.

Hyperbolic: People join the military because they are stupid. Granted, the article did not explicitly state this, however the author took a turn in this general direction and I am (admitedly) extrapolating. Look at the statistics before making assertions like this. As posted above, the stats do not bear out this assumption, throughout all services. Believing, just because that is what you want to believe, that people in the military are not too smart is, itself, not too smart.

Apparently what the military really teaches people, based solely on the evidence here, is to be long-winded.

The qur'an incident is a good discussion topic in that it shows both a stupid action and a worse response. I would bet, and I have absolutely zero evidence to back this, that the Soldier that shot the qur'an knew exactly what he was shooting at. So? Stupid? Yes and for two reasons: what the hell good does it do to shoot a book; and why would you pick that particular one when there are all too many people in the area willing to exploit your stupidity? The response though is worse. We kissed ass, plain and simple. As an organization, we went and begged for forgiveness. More appropriate would have been to tell those up in arms about this action that we do not like it and will try and ensure it does not happen again. But shit happens. Time to grow up and play with the rest of the rational world where it is recognized that shooting a book is not worthy of killing people. Rather than forcing our Iraqi buddies to recognize that sometimes things happen that others do not like, and that you work within your system to fix those, we decided to kiss ass and beg them to forgive us when there is no forgiveness required. Bad idea.

I am with Christopher Davis: when the Islamic community decides to beg forgiveness for their minority of people that love to blow themselves up around us, then maybe we can talk about shooting their happy book.

Other Comments by Gareth1

26. Comment #201165 by AoClay on June 29, 2008 at 9:47 am

 avatarSomebody tell them that they need to actually read the Bible and most of the Qur'an seems to be completely plagiarized. If fights must be had, I'm really scared if it becomes christian/muslim instead of secular/muslim.

Also, let me say that I don't like the idea of schooling = intelligence/knowledge. I'm not trying to say it means they're dumb by any means or that they aren't smart, but I think too many jump to schooling to prove intelligence/knwowledge with any subject.

Other Comments by AoClay

27. Comment #201167 by TeraBrat on June 29, 2008 at 9:55 am

I'm really scared if it becomes christian/muslim instead of secular/muslim.


Why does that scare you? Christianity has befriended Islam, let Christianity deal with the beast it helped create.

Other Comments by TeraBrat

28. Comment #201173 by mrjonno on June 29, 2008 at 10:47 am

Hyperbolic: People join the military because they are stupid.?

No but there is extremely strong evidence that your average grunt is far less educated than the general public.

On joining the army 50% have a reading age of less than 11

9% with a reading age of less than 7

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6418683.stm

Not talking about your average fighter pilot here who I'm sure is at least if not more educated than most the people who post here but the guy wandering around downtown Bagdad

But in UK (and all Western countries) the vast majority of people who join up are from the poorer less educated parts of society. Getting your well trained brains blown out for relatively poor money is not considered a good career move by most

Other Comments by mrjonno

29. Comment #201181 by He'sAVeryNaughtyBoy on June 29, 2008 at 11:29 am

mrjonno...
You should be aware that it is only the fighting infantry and personnel of the, how shall I say, less technical trades who traditionaly come from less educated backgrounds. You'll also note that that article only talks about the army.

So from that article there is evidence that the average army grunt is less educated than the general public, but by no means does that mean the whole military is on average less educated than the general public.

Let's be careful when we say "the vast majority of people who join up are from the poorer less educated parts of society" as this is simply not true.

A more accurate statement would be "the vast majority of people who join the army as fighting infantry are from the poorer less educated parts of society - but this has no bearing on the RAF, Navy or technical trades". It would be a mistake to think the average military person is less educated.

Other Comments by He'sAVeryNaughtyBoy

30. Comment #201194 by mordacious1 on June 29, 2008 at 12:05 pm

I've been out of the military for awhile, but I think you'd be suprised how many well educated people are serving in the enlisted ranks. When I graduated from college, I joined the army and they offered me a direct commission, I turned it down because I didn't want all the shit that a butter bar had to put up with. I just wanted to travel. I was soon in charge of a counter intelligence unit with 24 enlisted people. I'm thinking, I've got a triple major from university, better educated than most junior officers...how am I going to relate to these guys.
Out of the 24, 5 had masters degrees, 9 others has BA or BS degrees. The least educated guy in the unit, hadn't finished high school but spoke 5 languages fluently...a real asset BTW. I was floored. Granted not all units are like this, but it doesn't take a college degree to scramble eggs if you are a cook, and when I was in basic, the best shots were southern boys who had less education, but could shoot a squirrel at a hundred yards...

The military does a good job at putting the smart people in areas where they can be useful, and the less educated in areas where they can still reach whatever potential they might have.

As far as criticizing the military because they are fighting an unpopular war, there is no one that wants to fight these wars less than those serving. It is a real sacrifice they are making. The wars are the fault of civilians, not the military.

As far as xians doing their thing in the military, I had problems with it...which I commented on before, so I won't go into that here.

Chris Davis: Stay alert and come home in one piece.

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31. Comment #201210 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 29, 2008 at 12:39 pm

Why does that scare you? Christianity has befriended Islam, let Christianity deal with the beast it helped create.


TeraBrat excuse my frankness, but have you taken leave of your senses? Do you really imagine that we would escaped unscathed? Do you really think that Islam only has it in for Christians?

Sweetie, I have news for you. We're all in this. Like it or not, in a war like this, we're all involvde.

And can you really say that you don't care about the, what, million, million and a half Christians murdered in the Sudan? Or the persecuted Christians in Lebanon, Palestine and Iraq?

On this point, all kafirs and Infidels have to stand together. Period.

I've never heard a single apology from anyone of status in the Muslim world for the nearly 5000 servicemen and women who have died at the hands of the radicals of Islam.


Christopher, you said it. We're also not going to hear any apology from this lot.

Get home safely and send alot of those jihadi bastards to oblivion in small pieces.

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32. Comment #201265 by Vinelectric on June 29, 2008 at 2:15 pm

 avatarFanusi

a million and a half Christians killed in Sudan


The second Sudanese civil war took place in the south of the country where under one in five is Christian. Statiscially, the majority of those killed in the war would have been Nilotic animists. Of course that is besides the point as indeed close to 2 million have died in Africa's longest running civil conflict.

Bitter as it is, the country is struggling to keep the fragile peace between North and South so just do us a service and keep your nose out of our business.

Christopher Davies

I've never heard a single apology from anyone of status in the Muslim world for the nearly 5000 servicemen and women who have died at the hands of the radicals of Islam.


You don't just need an apology, you need active support from all those Muslim countries who are well aware of the great favour you're doing them by warding off the evil menace of the reckless barbaric fucks that are the Taliban. Add to that the threat from the opium trade the whole world owe's more to you than they can ever thank you for.

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33. Comment #201515 by J.C. Samuelson on June 29, 2008 at 7:01 pm

 avatarMore information in re: education. This time for the Army.

Stats current as of 2005:

Education Level

Officer 0% GED (General Educational Development)
<0.1% High School Diploma
1.3% Some College/Associates Degree
58.4% Bachelor's Degree
40.3% Masters / Doctorate
<0.1% Other/unk.

Warrant <0.1% GED (General Educational Development)
8.4% High School Diploma
61.3% Some College/Associates Degree
24.9% Bachelor's Degree
5.2% Masters / Doctorate
<0.1% Other/unk.

Enlisted 6.9% GED (General Educational Development)
76.0% High School Diploma
7.2% Some College/Associates Degree
4.7% Bachelor's Degree
0.6% Masters / Doctorate
4.6% Other/unk.

Source: Army Profile: FY05, pg. 4


Chris Davis

Well said!

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34. Comment #201541 by natrone23 on June 29, 2008 at 7:26 pm

I was a U.S Marine "grunt' (enlisted) from 2001 to 2005 I found that in my case Marine infantry was by far less religious than civilian americans. I dont remember 1 time when religion came up much less service members preaching. I was nver told that i had to pray or anything, i was never scolded for not bowing my head during prayer or anything remotely close. I do remember most of us would make fun of religion and bible thumpers, very very few went to church ....if you ever witnessed a mass before a battle in Iraq theres like 8 guys and the chaplin lol that tells you something, whoever said there arn't Atheists in foxholes...........We did have a Mormon Commanding Officer (who everyone hated because he was such a square) he wouldn't let anyone swear in his presence, which pissed everyone off because every other word in the Marines is F***k. But from my experence it was quiet the opposite of what some Atheists on this site might believe

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35. Comment #201561 by mordacious1 on June 29, 2008 at 7:57 pm

natrone23

As I've posted on this site previously. I served alongside of a lot of Marines and did not find the religion aspect a problem amongst them. I found the Air Force had the biggest problem, then the Army.

I did hear Marines use "jesus" alot, just not in the religious context.

edit: I was acting 1st Sgt of a company in Arizona for awhile and I had an African American Gunny in charge of the Marine contigent. Everything he said started with jesus christ. j.c. who fucked up my barracks, j.c. I've never seen so much dirt in a weapon, etc. Once we were driving along and spotted a Marine Pvt. hitchhiking with his shirt unbuttoned. The gunny must of said j.c. a hundred times in 5 minutes. Had to love the guy though, he was funny as all shit.

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36. Comment #201580 by natrone23 on June 29, 2008 at 8:28 pm

"The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps!" Elanor Roosevelt

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37. Comment #201581 by mordacious1 on June 29, 2008 at 8:32 pm

But they can't spell Eleanor.

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38. Comment #201588 by natrone23 on June 29, 2008 at 8:58 pm

your right

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39. Comment #201589 by natrone23 on June 29, 2008 at 9:05 pm

but thats not in the job description

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40. Comment #201602 by mordacious1 on June 29, 2008 at 9:26 pm

I know, you don't have to spell it to kill it.

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41. Comment #201604 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 29, 2008 at 10:06 pm

I knew that two million Christians and animists had been killed, I just din't know what the proportions were. But this comment by Vin really takes the cake:

Bitter as it is, the country is struggling to keep the fragile peace between North and South so just do us a service and keep your nose out of our business.


After what has been going on in the Sudan and Darfur, he has the nerve to say this? About sixty-seventy years ago, there were people who said similar things in my own Fatherland; I've always wondered what kind of minds they must have had - and today I know.

But don't worry Vin. This time the US decided to let you mind your own business, and do it the UN way, and send inspectors, and hold negotiations, and give you all the time in the world - and you know what? It's too late. They've all been killed.

So I hope that every UN fetishist, every fool like Vin, every single member of the 'peace' racket, every person who has done their damndest to deligitimize the only power in the world capable of stopping such monsters and to get them to bow to groups like the United Nations - I want every one of these to realise what they have sanctioned, and what they have allowed.

So, congratulations, Vin, you've been left to your own business, and we see what that's done.

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42. Comment #202002 by manitoumackinac on June 30, 2008 at 3:02 pm

 avatarI've been out of the navy for exactly 4 years today, and this article reminds me of the early days of my bootcamp experience where the entire division had to go to the chapel at Great Lakes RTC and listen to a presentation from the command chaplain on how we would be afforded time on Sundays to attend church meetings, and how religious belief is good to our health. It was basically just a sales pitch. That was about the worst of it in regards to my experience in the military. On the ship while underway the chaplain did say a prayer on the announcement system every night when they called lights out and there was a prayer before every military ceremony. It didn't bother me that much, but I still don't think it should be done. I didn't care how all the ship's volunteer and community relations activities (COMRAIL) were arranged and sponsored by the religious department. They usually would volunteering for religious schools and organizations when we were overseas. Donating excess ship supply of toothpaste to some Lutheran school in Thailand.

I remember the chaplain's pious assistant getting upset at a group of guys who were horsing around during the opening prayer at a retirement ceremony; irritated, he turned around and said, "Knock it off guys, we're gonna fucking pray!".
It was one of those precious moments which I'm still fond of.

Overall religiousity was pretty mellow from my experience in the navy, most of my co-workers didn't care about religion.

I wonder if religiousity varies by branch of service?

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43. Comment #202004 by al-rawandi on June 30, 2008 at 3:18 pm

 avatarmordacious1,



the best shots were southern boys who had less education, but could shoot a squirrel at a hundred yards...




I can give you that at 200 yards, and I am from California... and make that a rabbit.

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44. Comment #202201 by Telic on July 1, 2008 at 3:17 am

 avatarSurely a high power sniper bullet could make it through the Quran, the Bible, AND the Talmud in one shot ?

End of descrimination; Problem solved.

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45. Comment #205324 by Tyler Durden on July 7, 2008 at 5:14 am

 avatarHardly news considering their, ahem, "Commander in Chief" is an Evangelical Christian nutjob!

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