1. Comment #204569 by sane1 on July 5, 2008 at 9:09 am

HA! Heaven Shmeaven!

Sam - Please please keep up the good work.

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2. Comment #204570 by geehigh on July 5, 2008 at 9:16 am

"formerly called 'Babble'"!?

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3. Comment #204571 by William1w1 on July 5, 2008 at 9:25 am

Harris is completely right. Anyone who holds convictions like the man in the video should most certainly not be involved in politics. I'm glad I live in Canada where it isn't quite so bad.

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4. Comment #204574 by mewletter on July 5, 2008 at 9:32 am

I had suddenly recalled some of vivid horrors from a few sci-fi stories that involved religion... like Scott Adam's The Religion War.(Is that considered Sci-fi?)

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5. Comment #204576 by lordxenu on July 5, 2008 at 9:33 am

So the virgin male jews get into heaven....i guess the virgin women and children are fucked

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6. Comment #204581 by CruciFiction on July 5, 2008 at 9:44 am

This is video extracted from the extended interviews section of Brian Flemming's 2005 documentary, "The God Who Wasn't There".

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7. Comment #204589 by rydrum2112 on July 5, 2008 at 9:59 am

Anyone else think its funny he said "unfortunately" other people will be allowed into heaven that weren't raptured? Guess he doesn't like people sharing his reward of heaven with him.

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8. Comment #204591 by Rational_G on July 5, 2008 at 10:00 am

More evidence that we all have to keep on fighting the fight against ignorance and superstition.

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9. Comment #204597 by catskill on July 5, 2008 at 10:25 am

Did I hear that correctly? 144,000 male virgin Jews get raptured? The rest lose their heads or something? So how does this guy think he is going to be raptured if he is not a male virgin Jew?

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10. Comment #204598 by VV111y on July 5, 2008 at 10:30 am

#5 lordxenu,

.....no. No, they are not fucked.

I registered my account here just so I could make that crack. I couldn't resist.

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11. Comment #204599 by flobear on July 5, 2008 at 10:33 am

How did our species make it this far?

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12. Comment #204600 by MorituriMax on July 5, 2008 at 10:43 am

Why does it even matter when it happens? They're all going to Heaven when they die anyway, right?

Is this guy insane? At the end he says, "Unfortunately a bunch of people are going to Heaven after the Rapture by losing their heads." Oh and some Jews, ick ick, too.

So he thinks it's a BAD thing if more people go to Heaven once he's up there, almost like he thinks he's less wonderful if other people "make the cut"?

Also, people have been going to Heaven (according to Christians) by just dying of regular methods like old age, disease, accidents, criminal violence for, oh, thousands of years.. why he thinks he is somehow special because he has found one more way to go that doesn't hurt, wah wah, is beyond me..

I really think this guy is clinically insane, holy shit he scares me more than the Taliban.

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13. Comment #204601 by Phil T on July 5, 2008 at 10:43 am

Mental illness... Nothing more, nothing less.

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14. Comment #204605 by Eamonn Shute on July 5, 2008 at 10:55 am

The link does not appear with Firefox (but it does with IE).

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15. Comment #204607 by madame_zora on July 5, 2008 at 11:04 am

It's both embarrassing and horrifying to know that so many people have so little regard for reality. Of course, why hold this nut accountable when jesus himself believed the rapture would come in the lifetimes of his followers. That generation after generation has fallen for this garbage AND ALL BEEN WRONG seems to have escaped everyone's understanding.

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16. Comment #204610 by D'Arcy on July 5, 2008 at 11:13 am

Dear oh dear! This Christian (male Jewish virgin?) is seriously deluded. He appears to have already lost his head well before the rapture.

The best "Rapture" was of course the one done by Blondie. (The man from Mars that eats guitars).

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17. Comment #204611 by yyuryyub on July 5, 2008 at 11:13 am

Carl Sagan's masterpiece (Cosmos) is on Australian cable tv as i browse this. It makes me desperately sad that these are still considered arguments in 2008. long live reality! long live cosmos

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18. Comment #204612 by GBile on July 5, 2008 at 11:16 am

If this guy would have said 'Walhalla' in stead of 'Heaven', he might not have been loose anymore.

The funny thing about the rapture stories is that 144.000 (no more no less) of the tribes of the Israelites are going to be raptured. So an average believer from Smalville Kansas should not have a chance. But wait a minute, couldn't he be a honorary Israelite from that mysterious tribe that showed up in the midwest, long before Columbus learned how to sail a boat? The Lord works in mysterious ways.

Recently a group of palestinians in Gaza continued firing rocket into Israel, despite the truce, on the basis of their conviction that they must force Islam on all mankind.

What was the uplifting value of religion again ?

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19. Comment #204614 by Logicel on July 5, 2008 at 11:21 am

My visceral reading of the rapture guy is one of a very frightened dude, anxiety rippling just under the surface, barely concealed by his idiotic smugness.

And you pious parasites (like David Robertson), this insanity is in part due to your insisting that religious faith (since you pious parasites always know that your faith is the true one, therefore only good can come out of it) is virtuous. Gaze upon your handiwork, you pious parasites (and their pathetic apologists). This is the work you have really accomplished in your lifetime, by simply giving credence to non-evidential faith.

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20. Comment #204615 by TIKI AL on July 5, 2008 at 11:22 am

If the rapture was really coming, Walmart would be selling ascension robes like hotcakes.

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21. Comment #204622 by Verylee on July 5, 2008 at 11:32 am

My visceral reading of the rapture guy is one of a very frightened dude, anxiety rippling just under the surface, barely concealed by his idiotic smugness

Although I have not seen this clip (old/slow computer)....That is exactly what I read into txpiper's posts as well.

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22. Comment #204623 by AoClay on July 5, 2008 at 11:33 am

I really wish Harris would show himself more often. He's a very clear speaker and I don't see him enough.

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23. Comment #204625 by robotaholic on July 5, 2008 at 11:44 am

These people are insane -

Their minds don't process information properly -

You can tell that the brains of the really religious have been short-circuited -

It almost reminds me of an RPG that people take way too seriously lol

There is almost no convincing someone like that -they really have to convince themselves that it's all fiction-

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24. Comment #204632 by thewhitepearl on July 5, 2008 at 11:56 am

I used to be terrifed of the concept of the rapture. It's often used as a scare tactic. "Better make sure your life is together, because jesus is going to come like a thief in the night and snatch up all his TRUE followers. One minute your going to be there and the next minute, you'll hear the sound of a trumpet and in the blink of an eye you are going to be whizzing through the sky. You dont want to be one of those left behind" (etc..etc..)

scared the you know what out of me growing up. Prob more than the concept of hell actually. It caused a lot of pressure to make sure you were living biblically 24-7, lest you might be left behind to suffer through the tribulation.

EDIT: Uhhhhh so who is responsible for sending out the rapture letters?

Babrock, It hasn't ended. People still believe in this. For some christians it's a matter of whether it is pre, mid, or post tribulation. I was just visiting my grandparents on Weds and my younger brother was also there. My grandfather was quizzing him about the bible and talking about the rapture. He wanted my brother to understand the "proofs" of why the rapture would be Pre-Trib.

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25. Comment #204633 by Quetzalcoatl on July 5, 2008 at 12:03 pm

I'm sorry, but that guy is an absolute freak of nature. I would laugh, except that I'm too disconcerted because he so obviously believes what he is saying.

Rapture-thinking always strikes me as being very nihilistic. So much for the religious claiming that atheism leads to nihilism.

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26. Comment #204634 by the great teapot on July 5, 2008 at 12:04 pm

Funny thing is, I have lived now for 43 years and until a year a go I thought rapture was a dinosaur in jurrasic park. Now it would seem it is the american dream. How times change.

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27. Comment #204636 by TIKI AL on July 5, 2008 at 12:14 pm

"I used to be terrifed of the concept of the rapture." (thewhitepearl)

When I was three I was saying THIS gem before beddy bye:

"Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep.
If I should die before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take."

When I turned five I called "bullshit" and gave my Mother a lecture on child abuse.

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28. Comment #204637 by thewhitepearl on July 5, 2008 at 12:17 pm

TIKI AL,

When I was five I was being pressured to "speak in tongues" while praying before bedtime.

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29. Comment #204639 by William Carlton on July 5, 2008 at 12:18 pm

I think I should like to launch an insurance company which collects premiums for a policy paid out to loved ones "left behind" in the event of the Rapture. The funds would be intended for Biblical study and other vital post-Rapture, Tribulation survival necessities.

I really do think this is a business opportunity. I am not kidding.

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30. Comment #204642 by Quetzalcoatl on July 5, 2008 at 12:31 pm

William Carlton-

depressingly, you're probably right. Throw in some tailored post-Rapture Bibles and some "So you've left behind" communion wafers and you're in business.

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31. Comment #204643 by AlecsDeLarge on July 5, 2008 at 12:34 pm

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32. Comment #204644 by TIKI AL on July 5, 2008 at 12:34 pm

thewhitepearl: You have definately "out-child abused" me. I'm glad you "gaht betta".

If you ever start involuntarily speaking in toungues again, a frosty metal railing will cure it.

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33. Comment #204646 by the great teapot on July 5, 2008 at 12:35 pm

I was brought up in a "non religuous" household and also went to bed with the poem "If I die before I wake " but that is actually a nice thought, not quite the " I am alright jack but you're in deep do-do" that the rapture suggests.
I also used to go to bed with "sleep tight hope the bed bugs don't bite" ringing in my ear.
But who's sueing?

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34. Comment #204649 by thewhitepearl on July 5, 2008 at 12:38 pm

TIKI AL,

Oh I don't feel that will be a problem...I was pressured to speak in tongues but I couldn't ever do it...I felt stupid...(go figure). My grandfather was the worst about it. He would tell me to just copy what I had heard other people say, cause it was still of the holy spirit and that the holy spirit would feed me more..I just sat there pretending to "wait" until they got tired of waiting.

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35. Comment #204657 by TIKI AL on July 5, 2008 at 12:57 pm

thewhitepearl, If my grandfather told me that, I would have gone to "Looney Tunes" for tongues content. Would "a ba dee, a ba dee, a ba dee, that's all folks!" on a loop have satisfied him?

the great teapot, To die while sleeping? Ya-UMM! Like I ever get what I want.

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36. Comment #204659 by Apathy personified on July 5, 2008 at 1:02 pm

Are Sam Harris' figures of 22% of americans think the rapture WILL happen and 22% think it will PROBABLY happen in their life times truly representative?
If so that is a scary thought indeed, especially if people get it into their heads that 'destiny' needs a jump start.

Also, where does everyone get the white robes from? Do you buy them or does jesus provide them? Then that leads to the question of fittings - Who wants to ascend to heaven in a white robe that doesn't fit - quite frankly you'll look stupid.

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37. Comment #204668 by TIKI AL on July 5, 2008 at 1:20 pm

"Also, where does everyone get the white robes from? Do you buy them or does jesus provide them?" (Apathy personified)

I have read many stories about con-godbots setting rapture dates and selling ascension robes with the date embroidered on them.

When the day passes and nothing happens, they set another date and whip up some new robes.

godbot on godbot crime.

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38. Comment #204672 by Apathy personified on July 5, 2008 at 1:32 pm

con-godbots setting rapture dates and selling ascension robes with the date embroidered on them

Ok, so you have time to make sure they fit - But they don't have the messianic quality that a robe, given by jesus, would have.

I'm not surprised people are finding ways to make money out of people with a severe case of religion - 'Nothing is parted quicker than a fool and his/her money'

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39. Comment #204675 by sent2null on July 5, 2008 at 1:34 pm

This is all irrelevant. Having a discussion on the illogical conclusions of the Judeo Christian ideas of rapture is like discussing the details of just what the bad tactics were used by the rebel alliance on Degeba...it doesn't change the fact it is all fiction.

This reminds me of an argument between two comic book fanboys, vehemently defending their positions over who is stronger the Hulk or Superman. Lots of hot air expended with the result of nothing gained for humanity. Although I see the importance of confronting such believers I think it is a stronger tactic to oppose the veracity of the entire foundation rather than attack the internal inconsistences. (which are legion beyond words)

The stupidity of such arguments needs to be undermined by revelation of the more important facts such as:

1) The Judeo-Christian God was manufactured by Semetic cultures just about 2,500 to 3,000 years ago by people just like every other "God".

2) The similarities of the stories between the JC God and others in neighboring regions are extremely high.

3) The origins of monotheism (the "one god" belief) did not originate with the JC God, you need to move over to the East a few thousand miles and go back in time about 1,000 years to find that event in the Zoroastrian Azura Mazda God.

4) Many religions have after life beliefs, there is nothing unique about the JC one (other than its unfortunate spread over the globe due to particular political and geographic dashes of serendipity) that makes its after life belief any more real than any of the others, others that still outnumbers the JC God exceedingly if number of dedicated proselytes is considered.


All these are facts derived from archeological, religious and historical evidence that anyone can confirm, it falls on the believers of any given religious story to find evidence to substantiate their view outside of their Holy Books. Just as asserting that George Lucas original screen play for Star Wars is not proof that "the force exists!" so is it equally ludicrous to assert that any particular God creation/rapture story is a fact because the books written by the believers assert it as so. If the simple logic of this can't be grasped by anyone then they are bringing a level of intellectual dishonesty to the debate that is not worth confronting in my view. Better to steer them to the facts that we know and have them argue against what is known. The minds of such people are so far gone in their belief that any concession to their view, even on a hypothetical basis to try to demonstrate inconsistencies is one they cherish because they feel in so doing you are granting their view some element of legitimacy.

Arguing on the grounds of known facts requires that our command of the facts is greater than their command of their fantasy but that is not too difficult considering how ignorant about history, archeology and science in general most believers tend to be.

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40. Comment #204683 by Teratornis on July 5, 2008 at 2:00 pm

Comment #204571 by William1w1:

Harris is completely right. Anyone who holds convictions like the man in the video should most certainly not be involved in politics. I'm glad I live in Canada where it isn't quite so bad.

If you don't like a candidate's views, vote for someone else.

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." -- Winston Churchill

I would be a lot more frightened by Christianity if I ever met someone who follows it.

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41. Comment #204690 by Notcrowingbutyawning on July 5, 2008 at 2:15 pm

<<3) The origins of monotheism (the "one god" belief) did not originate with the JC God, you need to move over to the East a few thousand miles and go back in time about 1,000 years to find that event in the Zoroastrian Azura Mazda God. >>

sent2null, would that be contemporaneous with Akhenaten, who I have also seen cited as an originator of monotheistic belief?

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42. Comment #204700 by Ansu on July 5, 2008 at 2:40 pm

This been probably has been said before but i really hope some one hacks that rapture letter site and send all the letters one of this days.

Non christian friend: hey, i recived a letter from you saying that you have been raptured... how come you are still here?
Chrisitian friend: Uh - Oh

It will make some chaos and then end this stupidity of these rapture letters.

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43. Comment #204701 by crusader234 on July 5, 2008 at 2:42 pm

ahhh.. 43rd. The rapture is just another way of saying i dont give a shit about the next generation, my great grand children etc., lets just be self-centered and use up the world now..the religious really get my goat!

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44. Comment #204709 by Michael King on July 5, 2008 at 3:01 pm

Who invented the idea of the rapture and when? I get the impression that it is the belief is of recent vintage, mainly American and confined to evangelical groups. I am not aware that it is part of the belief systems of catholics, orthodox christians or anglicans.

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45. Comment #204710 by Teratornis on July 5, 2008 at 3:02 pm

Comment #204700 by Ansu:

This been probably has been said before but i really hope some one hacks that rapture letter site and send all the letters one of this days.

Is your conceptual position really so weak that you feel you must wish for someone else to resort to criminal behavior to censor someone who disagrees with you?

If so, I suggest you give reason a try. There actually are some pretty good arguments we can make. In the long run, reason is the only thing that works anyway. Hacking a religious site would only invite the religious to hack this site.

Or worse, they could show restraint and then justifiably claim the moral high ground.

I've lived with religious nuts before. I've also experienced malicious Web hackers. I'd rather live in a world full of religious nuts than a world full of malicious Web hackers.

At least with the religious nuts, you can see who is screwing with you.

Edit: Christians read the Bible which tells them to expect persecution. Making the prophecy come true by hacking their site wouldn't exactly undermine their faith. It would only further convince them of everything bad their preachers tell them about "unbelievers."

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46. Comment #204716 by Teratornis on July 5, 2008 at 3:19 pm

Comment #204649 by thewhitepearl:

I was pressured to speak in tongues but I couldn't ever do it...I felt stupid...(go figure).

I never had any problem speaking in tongues, but I was quite sure I was just making it up - it's like scat singing, who can't do that? I never had the experience of some exotic-looking person jumping up and exclaiming that I had just spoken in fluent Zimbwalawhoslandeze or whatever. Of course I heard many unsubstantiated anecdotal claims of that sort of thing. As with most claims of the miraculous, the claims grew in their miraculous nature in direct proportion to the impossibility of tracking down the sources and confirming them.

Did you ever get out to a snake-handling church? Now those people take their Bible literally, not this fake literalism of the fundamentalist pretenders.

I find it amazing that most or perhaps all states in the U.S. have outlawed snake-handling in churches. I would think the separation of church and state doctrine would allow it. Besides, making snake-handling legal would tend to make extreme religious fanaticism self-correcting. Evolution in action and all that.

My grandfather was the worst about it. He would tell me to just copy what I had heard other people say, cause it was still of the holy spirit and that the holy spirit would feed me more..I just sat there pretending to "wait" until they got tired of waiting.

You have my sympathies for whatever inconvenience your upbringing may have caused you, but I'm glad to see you aren't whining about it. And if we can judge correctly from your avatar photo, your upbringing does not appear to have harmed your looks.

Other Comments by Teratornis

47. Comment #204718 by Faithhead on July 5, 2008 at 3:27 pm

Spot on again Sam!

And less of these moderates hiding behind their excuses that extreme belief lies on the fringe.

44% aint no fringe

Grow up and stop waiting on the apocalypse as if it were christmas.

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48. Comment #204721 by paradoxgreg on July 5, 2008 at 3:31 pm

First post!

I can't believe as many as 44% of Americans believe in such insubstantiated nonsense. Not even when I was at my most religious did I ever imagine that it was more important to prepare for the afterlife than to prepare for a better future for this world.

What this mainly indicates is a need for improvement in American K-12 eduation. Whether your goal is to convert dangerous fundamentalists into atheists or whether you just want to show them the advantages of a more secular outlook, the proximate goal is the same: do whatever it takes to improve education in the U.S.

Greg

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49. Comment #204724 by Teratornis on July 5, 2008 at 3:38 pm

Comment #204659 by Apathy personified:

Are Sam Harris' figures of 22% of americans think the rapture WILL happen and 22% think it will PROBABLY happen in their life times truly representative?

The numbers sound low to me, but I live in Ohio.

If so that is a scary thought indeed, especially if people get it into their heads that 'destiny' needs a jump start.

The vast majority of Christians behave as if they don't believe the Bible. For example, they go to doctors when they get sick rather than believing the Bible's multiple promises that God will heal them; they buy insurance rather than trusting God to take care of them; most of them don't pick up venomous snakes and drink poison; they don't cut off their hands or pluck out their eyes when these organs cause them to sin; they grieve when loved ones die rather than viewing the separation as merely temporary; and so on.

Perhaps every generation of Christians since the very first one tended to believe they were the last generation. That's always been part of Christian doctrine. For example, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_disappointment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_eschatology

Civilization has survived 2000 years of Christian nonsense. It can probably survive today's watered-down secularized version.

The real threat to sustainability is the drawdown of fossil fuels. Civilization might not survive another ten years if the peak oil doomers are correct. If civilization gets through peak oil - somehow - then we have runaway global warming a few decades after that which could trigger an anoxic ocean event and render the Earth uninhabitable by humans.

The real question Sam Harris needs to be asking is not what people think about the Rapture, but what their carbon footprint is. Sam himself is hardly helping with his unbelievably selfish and shortsighted habit of jetting off to conferences merely to stand in front of a room and speak. He could give all his talks on the Internet at a fraction of the carbon footprint. He already uses the Internet effectively, and he could use it exclusively with no loss in effectiveness.

That's right, jetting around the world is actually stupider than believing in the Rapture. Christians have believed in the Rapture for thousands of years - sustainably. Jetting around the world is thoroughly unsustainable. If Sam is going to talk about sustainability, he should understand the definition of the term. If we are going to have a sustainable society, we have to stop being travel junkies.

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50. Comment #204735 by AlecsDeLarge on July 5, 2008 at 3:58 pm

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