Saturday, August 16, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version

A flea we missed?

by RichardDawkins.net

It looks like this flea slipped by under the radar earlier this year:
God, Doubt and Dawkins: Reform Rabbis Respond to the God Delusion by Jonathan A Romain
http://www.amazon.com/God-Doubt-Dawkins-Jonathan-Romain/dp/0947884173/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1218864458&sr=1-1

Religions are reeling from the ferocious assault by Richard Dawkins in his book The God Delusion. But what has led to such a high profile attack? How does Judaism fare? Are the criticisms justified? How do Jews who take their faith seriously yet also value intelligent debate respond to the accusations that Dawkins hurls at them?

Twelve leading Reform personalities have risen to the Dawkins challenge. They offer a robust defence of the many good features that faith offers without flinching from the unacceptable aspects. They will probably not convert Dawkins, but they may well stop him converting others. (thanks to Old Sarum)

PAST FLEAS:

http://www.amazon.com/Atheism-Remix-Christian-Confronts-Atheists/dp/1433504979/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217371837&sr=1-1
FLEAmix

Atheism Remix: A Christian Confronts the New Atheists

A leading Christian intellectual explores the newest strain of atheism, its foremost thinkers, the cultural conditions that have bred it, and how Christians should respond.

Something has changed in American culture. What for years was a little-regarded belief system—atheism—has now gained a large, and increasing, national hearing through the writings of "new atheists" such as Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, and Hitchens.

Wanting to both inform and equip serious-minded Christians regarding this cultural shift, R. Albert Mohler Jr. explores the environment that has bred the "new atheism" while also introducing readers to the movement's four leading thinkers and the contours of their arguments. Mohler—deemed "the reigning intellectual of the evangelical movement in the US" by Time magazine—then uses this foundation to pinpoint eight major distinctives that make the new atheism new, and to discuss the future of Christianity in relationship to it.

At school and in the community, Christians are sure to encounter people who have been shaped by this strain of atheism. Here is keen insight that any believer can use to understand and challenge the new atheists.

http://thedelusiondelusion.com/

A strange new flea book?

The Delusion Delusion

http://www.xulonpress.com/book_detail.php?id=5390
Dawkins Dilemas

Dawkins' Dilemmas — thought-provoking and intriguing Will Richard Dawkins' atheism grip millions — fade — or stir lingering doubts? Baffled or intrigued by his passionate arguments? With this book, you will be able to: Find out how biblical Christianity uncovers Dawkins' dilemmas. Discover why atheism does not rest on rational foundations. Use a fascinating approach that helps you to weigh up Dawkins' beliefs — As you explore Dawkins' dilemmas — � The dilemma of a flawed world � The dilemma of humanity � The dilemma of atheism and probability � An intriguing chapter on: SETI — the search for meaning � The dilemma of the ultimate paradox And take a fresh look at the gospel of Christ.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-There-Almost-Certainly-God/dp/0745953301
and
http://shop.ekklesia.co.uk/christian-bookshop/why_there_almost_certainly_is_a_god_1212372.html

Why There Almost Certainly Is a God: Doubting Dawkins by Keith Ward

Synopsis
Richard Dawkins recently claimed that 'no theologian has ever produced a satisfactory response to his arguments'. Well-known broadcaster and author Keith Ward is one of Britain's foremost philosopher-theologians. This is his response. Ward welcomes all comers into philosophy's world of clear definitions, sharp arguments, and diverse conclusions. But when Dawkins enters this world, his passion tends to get the better of him, and he descends into stereotyping, pastiche, and mockery. In this stimulating and thought-provoking philosophical challenge, Ward demonstrates not only how Dawkins' arguments are flawed, but that a perfectly rational case can be made that there, almost certainly, is a God.

The Devil's Delusion: Atheism and Its Scientific Pretensions
http://www.amazon.com/Devils-Delusion-Atheism-Scientific-Pretensions/dp/0307396266/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b

http://www.amazon.com/GOD-QUESTION-Response-God-Delusion/dp/B0013VHC0G/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=digital-text&qid=1205351261&sr=1-5
[No Image Available]

'The God Question: A Response to The God Delusion' by Rev. John Edgell

The Delusion of Disbelief: Why the New Atheism is a Threat to Your Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness

http://www.amazon.com/Delusion-Disbelief-Atheism-Liberty-Happiness/dp/1414317085/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203958557&sr=8-1
delusion disbelief

http://www.lulu.com/content/605271
"The Confutation of Dawkins' The God Delusion" by Malcolm McLean
flea

Richard Dawkins' book is systematically refuted. Dawkins' arguments are analysed, and invariably found wanting. However the confutation is charitable in tone, and sometimes allows that Dawkins may have a constructive point. A must read for anyone who has read "The God Delusion".

http://www.mobipocket.com/en/eBooks/BookDetails.asp?BookID=35163&Origine=1718
rd delusion

http://www.cokesbury.com/forms/ProductDetail.aspx?pid=654057
God and the new atheism

Read an interview with the latest flea author John Haught at Salon.com here (thanks to Richard Prins)

PZ Myers has done a nice breakdown of the above interview here

Suggit

"Challenging Richard Dawkins: Why Richard Dawkins is Wrong About God"
Kathleen Jones Flea

God Is No Delusion: A Refutation of Richard Dawkins

UPDATE: This looks like it is actually the SAME book as you see in Richard's flea-orbit below titled "A Catholic Replies to Professor Dawkins (UK)" (they have the same blurb). This must be a case of them trying to hype it up for the US market.

Sam's Fleas

And some general fleas:

The New Atheist Crusaders and Their Unholy Grail: The Misguided Quest to Destroy Your Faith
by Becky Garrison

The Truth Behind the New Atheism: Responding to the Emerging Challenges to God and Christianity

"The New Atheists: The Twilight of Reason & The War on Religion"
by Tina Beattie

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1. Comment #231211 by andyroo on August 16, 2008 at 12:53 am

Heh,

You know that Dawkins is a success when everyone starts to jump in on the "(Insert title) Delusion" bandwagon.

Other Comments by andyroo

2. Comment #231213 by esuther on August 16, 2008 at 12:57 am

I would imagine the reform Jewish 'take' on Dawkins would differ slightly from that of Christians.
Reform Jews, like Unitarian Christians, are the most secularized of their faith and I think fall squarely into the 'believers in belief' class.
But modern Judaism has the added element of valuing the community as much as the dogma. Jews in my personal sphere seem to retain their Jewish identity NOT because they believe a single feature of the Old Testament, but because they believe in themselves.
So I can see a whole lot of reform Jews going to temple (and circumcising their sons) just to sort of mark out the steps of being Jewish while not giving an iota of credence to any of the myths behind it all.
I lived most of my life in New York, where a large segment of my friends (and fellow professors) were Jews who were atheist in all but name, but Jewish only in name. They were Jews because they said they were. Period.

Other Comments by esuther

3. Comment #231218 by 8teist on August 16, 2008 at 1:09 am

Does anybody really care what these 1/2 wits think ? Rabbis,priests and mullahs are all yesterdays men fighting for relevancy in a world that is increasingly requiring reality in everyday life .
We don`t need their superstitions and ridiculous rules ,these guys know that shortly they may be out of a job and that they may just have go out and work for a living, Parasites the lot of them ,scumbags.

Other Comments by 8teist

4. Comment #231220 by JeremyH on August 16, 2008 at 1:13 am

"Here is keen insight that any believer can use to understand and challenge the new atheists."

When debating god with an athiest, follow these steps to ensure victory

Step one: When the atheist begins to speak, place index fingers firmly inside ears.

Step two: sing "Heaven" by the band Live very loudly, as to avoid hearing unwanted facts and logic.

Step three: when the atheist has given up hope, use circular logic and flawed mathematics to justify your belief in god (e.g. "god wrote the bible, and the bible says God exists, QED god exists, i mean, God wouldn't lie would He?).

Step four: Stalin, Hitler, Maou etc etc, *smug look of arrogance*

Final step: Tell the atheist that you are praying for them, and that one day they will see the truth.

This is easy, maybe I should start writing fleas!

Other Comments by JeremyH

5. Comment #231230 by Dace on August 16, 2008 at 3:13 am

It's not only this one that's been missed. New Zealand has added it's own sprinkling of ignorance and bad argument to the melting pot with "The Divinity Code" by Ian Wishart. Out of all of the fleas, I say it takes 'The Worst Title' title - not only does it unashamedly recycle another phrase in popular culture, the phrase is the title of a book, "The Da Vinci Code" which has nothing to do with it.

Such stupidity demands recognition, doesn't it?

Other Comments by Dace

6. Comment #231235 by Raiko on August 16, 2008 at 3:36 am

*scratch scratch scratch* Stupid fleas.

That's what you get for having a good book - I mean, good blood!

Other Comments by Raiko

7. Comment #231255 by scottishgeologist on August 16, 2008 at 4:01 am

Not really surprising - Mohler came up with an article called "The Dawkins Delusion" acouple of years ago after TGD was published.

So here he is, back for another go.....

:-)
SG

PS: JeremyH, you managed to reduce terabytes of web exchanges to a few sentences - kudos ! :-))

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

8. Comment #231354 by and7barton on August 16, 2008 at 6:55 am

To Quote from - Atheism Remix.
"What for years was a little-regarded belief system�"atheism.........."

Excuse me ! - WHAT belief system ?
Surely it's precisely NOT a belief system.

Other Comments by and7barton

9. Comment #231372 by thewhitepearl on August 16, 2008 at 7:39 am

Tina Beattie's book still holds the position of my favourite jacket cover.

edit

MRA,

Class Assignment- We all pick a book and respond with books of our own.

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

10. Comment #231400 by The Schuermannator on August 16, 2008 at 8:54 am

twp -

I was just thinking that myself. She's also one of the very few female flea writers.
I also love the look on Harris's face in The Return of the Village Atheist.

Other Comments by The Schuermannator

11. Comment #231401 by thewhitepearl on August 16, 2008 at 8:54 am

"Letter to a Hippy Nation"

ha ha.

I feel that your suggestion is prob a wee bit pointless but we have to start somewhere. And it'll give us something to do. Maybe even make the local news.

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

12. Comment #231403 by steveroot on August 16, 2008 at 8:58 am

15. Comment #231372 by thewhitepearl on August 16, 2008 at 7:39 am

Class Assignment- We all pick a book and respond with books of our own.

Let the games begin :-) :

Great fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite 'em, And little fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitum, And the great fleas themselves, in turn, have greater fleas to go on, While these again have greater still, and greater still, and so on.
Author: Augustus de Morgan
Ste5e

Other Comments by steveroot

13. Comment #231405 by Apathy personified on August 16, 2008 at 9:08 am

*yawn*
Anything new in this one - i doubt it.

I think i'll write;
'astrology is not great: how horoscopes poison everything'

Other Comments by Apathy personified

14. Comment #231406 by thewhitepearl on August 16, 2008 at 9:15 am

Morning Ap!

I think I'll cover DR's book.

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

15. Comment #231407 by Apathy personified on August 16, 2008 at 9:22 am

Afternoon whitepearl :)
*Apathy passes whitepearl a freshly brewed cup of tea*
What will you call it?

Other Comments by Apathy personified

16. Comment #231408 by thewhitepearl on August 16, 2008 at 9:31 am

Schuer,

Ha ha yeah I never noticed that. But they clearly captured the attitude of Hitchens on "The New Atheists".

Tea? I get tea today? What kind?

I don't know yet. But I don't really understand his title. "The Dawkins Letters-Challenging Atheist Myths" Or his book cover on that note.

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

17. Comment #231410 by thewhitepearl on August 16, 2008 at 9:40 am

Mordy,

Have fun with that assignment.

Although, can you imagine if someone went through and challenged the entire book and released it as "The Babble".

Oh wait we have to cover the muslims big book.

"The Qu-Qu'ran"

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

18. Comment #231411 by Apathy personified on August 16, 2008 at 9:45 am

whitepearl,
It's nothing special, just 'Twinnings everyday tea' or whatever they call it.
Drinking tea, instead of coffee, is my way of 'shaking things up a little' - i take it to the extreme, i know.

How about 'The DR challenges - Asking questions religites can't answer'?

Edit: Who's gonna cover the Torah - I vote for the 'To-rah-rah'?

Other Comments by Apathy personified

19. Comment #231416 by thewhitepearl on August 16, 2008 at 10:11 am

Apathy, I like it. I think that is what it shall be called.

Clearthinker, I thought you were teaching kids at a camp?

Of such profound questions are deep discussion made!

Riiiiiiiiiight.

Any way, anyone else find it a bit scary that clearthinker seems to pop up whenever he is mentioned?

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

20. Comment #231417 by kkelly on August 16, 2008 at 10:16 am

27, Have you even read Paula Kirby's in-depth rebuttal to your letters? She spells it out very clearly where you are intellectually dishonest, or just plain lacking.

Other Comments by kkelly

21. Comment #231419 by notsobad on August 16, 2008 at 10:18 am

How do Jews who take their faith seriously yet also value intelligent debate

...

hey offer a robust defence of the many good features that faith offers

They missed the point already (deliberately or not).

Other Comments by notsobad

22. Comment #231420 by thewhitepearl on August 16, 2008 at 10:22 am

kelly,

Hes off again. You have to say one of his names for him to reappear.

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

23. Comment #231421 by fizhburn on August 16, 2008 at 10:28 am

twp,

Oh, so he's kind of like a pathetic Beetlejuice. That would explain the profound weirdness of his posts.

Other Comments by fizhburn

24. Comment #231424 by Apathy personified on August 16, 2008 at 10:31 am

clearthinker,

Is there a problem with the website? Seems to be a lot of posts missing? Including at least one by RD.

There was a problem last weekend, quite a few people lost their previous posts.

If you believe that religion and science can co-exist in a consistant way - Where's the demarcation between them? Where does science 'hand over' to religion?

Edit: whitepearl, love the avatar!

Other Comments by Apathy personified

25. Comment #231426 by thewhitepearl on August 16, 2008 at 10:41 am

Fiz,

Exactly. Goodness me my brain is still mush because for the life of me I couldn't figure out what iconic fiction character I was reminded of.

Apathy,

Thanks! I can't even see it. I have another image..It's a cartoonish one (Reminds me of Sin City) with a man raising a broken bloody cricket bat.

I thought that one would be too intense.

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

26. Comment #231430 by Apathy personified on August 16, 2008 at 10:46 am

I have another image..It's a cartoonish one (Reminds me of Sin City) with a man raising a broken bloody cricket bat.

I thought that one would be too intense.

Ha - that's fantastic!
Although it sounds like more of a dramatic final battle picture, than a standard fight pose - still, you could photoshop the cricket bat into a picture of you, so it looks like you are holding it.....

Other Comments by Apathy personified

27. Comment #231431 by thewhitepearl on August 16, 2008 at 10:51 am

Apathy,

Photoshop is not one of my many skills.

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

28. Comment #231433 by Apathy personified on August 16, 2008 at 10:57 am

whitepearl,
From what i hear, it's not that hard to get the basics - but that's according to computer scientist people.
Personally, i've never used it - haven't ever felt the need to fake or alter a picture.

Other Comments by Apathy personified

29. Comment #231435 by thewhitepearl on August 16, 2008 at 11:04 am

Ap,

Me neither dude. I guess it wouldn't hurt to try it. It can't be that difficult.

Edit

So any way how are you doing today? For some reason I decided that I was going to research every god and goddess that was popular throughout history. Even fumbled onto a goddess and monsteress quiz. Interesting enough..

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

30. Comment #231438 by Diacanu on August 16, 2008 at 11:15 am

Hey, here's another flea you missed.

http://www.amazon.com/Chance-Purpose-Creation-Evolution-Rational/dp/1586172123

I keep pointing it out to ya in every flipping flea thread.

Other Comments by Diacanu

31. Comment #231440 by Apathy personified on August 16, 2008 at 11:18 am

I'm ok, haven't really done much, thanks for asking - yourself?

Hmmm, that must be pretty epic, i bet there's more than you can shake a stick at (that phrase is so odd). What's the coolest one you've found so far?

Other Comments by Apathy personified

32. Comment #231442 by Corylus on August 16, 2008 at 11:24 am

I see that Clearthinker has been hit by the bug.

David, you are not being censored, so please do not say that you are.

Comments seem to appear and then disappear after the refresh has been pressed.

I have noticed that it does seem to effect some user's accounts more that others. For example, you will see that Mordacious1 below you seems is having problems also.

You might instead care to try logging in under the user name David Robertson (which you have been provided with, but do not use).

This may work better.

Other Comments by Corylus

33. Comment #231443 by mordacious1 on August 16, 2008 at 11:38 am

"For example, you will see that Mordacious1 below you seems is having problems also."

Great. Now I'm being lumped in with DR. I thought that they just deleted my post because I called DR a &^%$%^*, but I see they're all gone again. (sighs)

[edit] Damn, all my "other comments by" are gone again...this is getting really annoying.

Other Comments by mordacious1

34. Comment #231445 by thewhitepearl on August 16, 2008 at 11:40 am

Apathy,

I'm doing ok. Just waiting to wrap up my responsibilites so I can leave. Thanks for asking.

Er, that would be Loki.

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

35. Comment #231447 by Diacanu on August 16, 2008 at 11:42 am

could somone else link to "chance or purpose?", for me?

Maybe I'm being ignored because Josh and/or Richard hate me.

maybe if somone else submitted it.

I just want it on the list.
I saw it being read on C-Span and it was fucking horrible.
I want everyone else throwing tomatoes at that shit.
Might validate my grief.

Other Comments by Diacanu

36. Comment #231448 by thewhitepearl on August 16, 2008 at 11:46 am

Josh

Here is yet another flea that might want to get mentioned:

http://www.amazon.com/Chance-Purpose-Creation-Evolution-Rational/dp/1586172123

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

37. Comment #231450 by Quetzalcoatl on August 16, 2008 at 11:48 am

Josh-

While your attention is drawn, do you know what's causing the disappearing comment syndrome?

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

38. Comment #231451 by mordacious1 on August 16, 2008 at 11:48 am

Diacanu

Does that book really qualify? Usually the fleas have a reference to Dawkins, Harris, Hitch on the cover. Sometimes they use a part of a title in their title, eg. The Delusion Delusion, or the Dawkins' Delusion.

Hurry! Read this post before it's deleted.

Other Comments by mordacious1

39. Comment #231452 by Apathy personified on August 16, 2008 at 11:48 am

whitepearl,
After a quick read on wikipedia, Loki does indeed look like a pretty cool god, full of pranks and world ending misdemeanors.

Where have you decided to go to?

Other Comments by Apathy personified

40. Comment #231453 by Quetzalcoatl on August 16, 2008 at 11:50 am

mordacious 1 said-

Diacanu

Does that book really qualify? Usually the fleas have a reference to Dawkins, Harris, Hitch on the cover. Sometimes they use a part of a title in their title, eg. The Delusion Delusion, or the Dawkins' Delusion.

Hurry! Read this post before it's deleted

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

41. Comment #231454 by Diacanu on August 16, 2008 at 11:53 am

mordacious1-

Diacanu

Does that book really qualify? Usually the fleas have a reference to Dawkins, Harris, Hitch on the cover. Sometimes they use a part of a title in their title, eg. The Delusion Delusion, or the Dawkins' Delusion.

Hurry! Read this post before it's deleted.

I think it belongs there, yeah.

It heavily references, and thus is a response to "the new atheism".

So, it owes its existence to the Dawkins/Harris/Hitchens/Dennett wave.

The very definition of a flea.

Plus, there's a lot of the others on the list that don't have "Dawkins", or "Delusion", in the title.

Other Comments by Diacanu

42. Comment #231455 by mordacious1 on August 16, 2008 at 11:55 am

Thanks Quetz

Other Comments by mordacious1

43. Comment #231456 by steveroot on August 16, 2008 at 11:55 am

31. Comment #231420 by thewhitepearl on August 16, 2008 at 10:22 am
*avatar*
When I was in grammar school (public, actually!), one of the teachers had one of those hanging in the front of the classroom clearly labeled "Board of Education"! Thx for the memory.
Ste5e

Other Comments by steveroot

44. Comment #231457 by thewhitepearl on August 16, 2008 at 11:55 am

Ap,

Denver. Yes he was a trickster god I think Brian might like him. I also read about Quetz mom. Goddess of prostitues...

[edit]

Hey Quetz,

I have just been welcomed to the FCOS.

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

45. Comment #231458 by Diacanu on August 16, 2008 at 11:57 am

TWP-

Josh

Here is yet another flea that might want to get mentioned:

http://www.amazon.com/Chance-Purpose-Creation-Evolution-Rational/dp/1586172123

Lol, thanks. :P

Other Comments by Diacanu

46. Comment #231460 by mordacious1 on August 16, 2008 at 11:59 am

steveroot

We had the hurricane and the himacane. The himacane had holes drilled in it.

Other Comments by mordacious1

47. Comment #231462 by Quetzalcoatl on August 16, 2008 at 12:03 pm

thewhitepearl-

I also read about Quetz mom. Goddess of prostitues...

Yeah, but my virtue is white and pure.

Well, kind of grey.

PS- thewhitepearl: your post has appeared on FCOS!

EDIT-

I have just been welcomed to the FCOS

Congratulations! Did you get the complementary biscuits?

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

48. Comment #231464 by thewhitepearl on August 16, 2008 at 12:08 pm

Quetz,

Wow at the same time that I got accepted into the FCOS...ha ha oh well.

You're mom was still a slut.

Steve,

Whoops sorry! But um, I suspect I won't hear anything stupid flying out of your mouth anytime soon. As long as I'm around.

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

49. Comment #231465 by steveroot on August 16, 2008 at 12:10 pm

57. Comment #231462 by Quetzalcoatl on August 16, 2008 at 12:03 pm

PS- thewhitepearl: your post has appeared on FCOS!

I Googled "FCOS" and this was the first citation:

"http://www.churchofsatan.org/"
WTF??
Ste5e

Other Comments by steveroot

50. Comment #231466 by David A Robertson on August 16, 2008 at 12:12 pm

Corylus,

Thanks for the advice. Ironically my original post had asked what was going on with the comments - no conspiracy theory as even RD had one deleted!

I also pointed out that I am just back from speaking at the alternative Edinburgh book festival, where, much to my delight, I met my first 'Brights'. They belong to the Glasgow group and were very pleasant and intelligent - living up to their name!

The White Pearl - to answer your question - the title is simple. I believe that TGD neither raises any new issues or presents any new arguments. It is 'preaching to the choir' and appeals to those who already accept atheist myths such as science and religion are de facto opposed.

The cover is simply a collection of real creatures (in black) with one mythical one (the invisible pink unicorn). This latter lead to some discussion on one thread about how I could portray the invisible pink unicorn! Of such issues are great discussions had - like how many angels can dance on a pinhead.

KKelly - you have obviously not read the thread 'Fleabytes' or you would know that I have read Paula's review and commented on it. Furthermore I don't think she has shown any where any dishonesty. There are things she does not agree with (nor would any follower of the atheist faith) but that does not convict me of dishonesty. Indeed I have often been called a liar on this website and have often issued the challenge - please tell me where I am lying (recognising the difference between lying and being mistaken). So far this has been met by a deafening silence. Actually that is not true. It is been met by a wall of words (some not very pleasant) but no actual evidence. I wait with baited breath.

Clear thinker.

Other Comments by David A Robertson

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