Skip to Main Content (access key 1)
Skip to Search (access key 2)
Skip to Search GO (access key 3)
Skip to comments (access key 4)
Skip to navigation (access key 5)
Skip to top of page (access key 6)
Friday, November 10, 2006 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Dawkins Delusion (3rd article, Same Stupid Title)

by David Robertson

UPDATE11-15-06: David Robertson has continued his discussion of The God Delusion here:
http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/novb06.htm

Reposted from:
http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/nov06.htm

Thaks to James for sending it in.

Dear Dr Dawkins,

Forgive me for writing you but I am really frustrated. You see, I read your book, The God Delusion (great title but of course it does just open itself to the rejoinder in the title above – which I am sure many others will pick up on). There was so much in it that I could identify with and yet so much that was to my mind just simply wrong. I would love to discuss it with you, or with those who are your disciples, but I'm afraid that I am not an Oxford Don, I don't have access to the media you do, and I am not part of the Establishment. Therefore it is very difficult to dialogue about these things. And of course you have stated that you do not discuss with 'fundamentalists' or those who would be stupid enough to disagree with you. Apparently you want 'intelligent' conversation and anyone who believes in revelation or supernaturalism is de facto non intelligent, therefore not worth discussing with. Given that the subject you are so vehement about is the whole question of supernaturalism and whether there is a God or not, do you not think it is kind of loading the dice to only discuss with those who already share your presuppositions?

Anyway although I do not expect you to read this, I am writing it for my own benefit and for the sake of those who having read your book, perhaps share the same frustrations, or maybe have even been influenced or feel threatened by it. Of course I realise that most people who buy your book will already be converts – they already share your faith and will be looking for reassurance or confirmation. Although your book is an evangelistic work, written with the specific intention of converting religious readers to atheists by the time they reach the end, you know as well as I do that the vast majority of people who read it will already be convinced. You are preaching to the choir. This is rather obvious even from the people who write the blurb on the jacket cover, admittedly not normally unbiased objective judges. Stephen Pinker, Brian Eno, Derren Brown and Philip Pullman all wax lyrical about your book – but then they would wouldn't they? Each of them being convinced atheists already and fairly desperate to have their particular belief system endorsed. Pullman wants your anti-faith book to be put into every faith school (nothing like wanting to indoctrinate children is there?). Eno says it is 'a book for the new millennium, one in which we may be released from lives dominated by the supernatural'. Heady stuff. But best of all is Derren Brown who affirms The God Delusion as his 'favourite book of all time'. It is 'a heroic and life-changing work'. He wants those who are 'secure and intelligent enough to see the value of questioning their beliefs will be big enough and strong enough to read this book'.

Well, I have read it. I did expect to be challenged. But actually I was very disappointed. Of course it was well written, very entertaining and passionate. But at an intellectual and logical level it really misses the mark. I'm sorry but I honestly think I could have made a better case for atheism. Most of the arguments are of sixth form school boy variety. And this from the 'one of the worlds' top three intellectuals' (as the book jacket so helpfully reminds us). Is this really the best that atheism has to offer? (Memo to self - why did I once feel so challenged by atheism?). What is disturbing about this is that your fundamentalist atheism will actually be taken seriously by some and will be used to reinforce their already prejudiced anti-religion and anti-Christian stance. Your 'arguments' will be repeated ad nauseum in newspaper letters columns, opinion pages, pubs and dinner tables throughout the land. You will forgive me saying this but it seems remarkably similar to the kind of thing that 'intellectuals' were putting out in 1930's Germany about the Jews and Judaism. Just as the Jews were responsible for all the ills in Weimar Germany, so according to your book religious people are responsible for the majority of ills in today's society. Along with John Lennon you want us to 'imagine' a world with no religion. A world which you claim would have no suicide bombers (I assume it slipped your mind that the majority of suicide attacks have been by the secular Sri Lankan Tamil Tigers?), no crusades, no 9/11, no Israeli/Palestinian wars etc. By the way John Lennon was one of my heroes and I loved Imagine. Then I grew up and realised that it took a great deal of imagination to take seriously a song which spoke of imagining a world 'with no possessions too' written by a man who lived in a mansion and had an abundance of possessions, whilst there were millions dying from lack of resources. It seems to me that your vision/imagination is almost as unrealistic as Lennon's. You want us to imagine that there is no God. And then you do not really address the consequences of such a belief. Of course you have some awareness of what these are. That's why you tell us that although when it comes to biology you are a strict Darwinianist, when it comes to politics, society etc you cannot go that route. Social Darwinianism would bring Hell on earth. I agree with your conclusions – I just find it difficult to follow the logic.

Over the next few weeks I want to write a letter in response to each of your chapters. As you correctly point out each of them deals with issues that are fundamental to our existence, meaning and well being as humans. But let me finish off this introductory letter by looking at a couple of other things you state in your own introduction.

You state that your book is for those who have been brought up in a particular religious faith and now either no longer believe it, or are unhappy in it and want out. You want to raise the consciousness of such people to the extent that they can realise that they can get out. Do you really think that people are that stupid? Do most people not already know that is perfectly possible to leave a religion and not suffer any significant social consequences – at least in non-Islamic countries? I was brought up in a religious home and knew from a very young age that not only was it possible to leave, but that for many people it would be considered normal. Indeed none of my four siblings currently attend Church. In Evangelical Christian terms they would be considered 'backslidden'. But perhaps you are right – maybe they have been raised to a higher consciousness first? I fought my own battles so that I could be free to think for myself. But it was not just, nor even primarily, against the religious teachings of my parents or others (and I did fight against them), but also the patronising expectations of teachers, media and others who just assumed that the only reason anyone would be religious was because of parental influence, brainwashing and a weak mind. You know the real relief came when I realised I could be a Christian and think for myself and seek to make a difference in the world. And that I did not have to buy into the all the quirks and cultural things of religious groups, nor the fundamentalism of the secularists who just knew that they were right.

I cannot think of a single career option in Britain where being an atheist would place you at a disadvantage (unless you are thinking of becoming a bishop – although given the recent history of men like Holloway that does also appear to be a career option for atheists). However there are many people for whom admitting they are 'religious' is a severe block to their career and life. Those who seek to be Christian politicians, singers, businessmen, teachers and social workers often face significant prejudice and irrational fear. It is sometimes advantageous to deny one's faith or even to leave it. Being a Christian is more often than not a stumbling block to one's chosen career path, rather than the other way around.

Of course there are those who belong to cults who exercise a form of mind control tantamount to brain washing but surely even you would not argue that every religious person is in that category – imprisoned in the snare of their own religion until the good knight, Sir Richard Dawkins, rides to their rescue and sets them free?! You seem to think that anyone who is religious is actually at a lower level of consciousness and needs to be set free by becoming an atheist. Of course you offer no empirical evidence for this. Like much of the book it is a presupposition (even a prejudice) which does not appear to be founded on anything other than you would like it to be so. Have you ever thought that there might be many others who are in the opposite position – brought up in an atheistic secular society and discovering that they can actually believe in God? Would you give them the freedom to do so? What would you do if your daughter turned out to be a Bible believing Christian? Would you disown her? Would you even allow her that choice? Or have you done your best to inoculate her against the virus of religion? I remember one young man, highly intelligent, who came to a Christianity Explored group. When he was asked his religious position he said 'I'm an atheist, but I'm beginning to have my doubts'. I laughed. A backslidden atheist! I thought that was quite neat. Maybe there are a lot more of them than you think. You ought to be careful about the raising of consciousness – maybe people will become tired of your modernist certainties and instead find refuge in the clear fresh air of Jesus Christ!

I also smiled when I read your complaint that atheists were persecuted and misunderstood. Apparently you are the new 'gays' who need to 'come out'. Forgive me for saying this but I had not noticed that atheists were particularly silent or poorly represented in British society (or even American). In Britain all our government institutions, media outlets and educational establishments are primarily secularist. The National Secular Society or the British Humanists get a far bigger exposure than the vast majority of Christian churches – despite the fact that most secular societies could fit their members into a phone box. Even when the Prime Minister is asked a relatively innocuous question about whether he prays, his media minder Mr Campbell felt compelled to point out 'we don't do God'. Atheism and secularism are without doubt the prevailing philosophies of those who consider themselves the elite.

You were given the immense privilege of having editorial control of your own TV series 'The Root of all Evil'. Can you tell me when Channel 4 or even the BBC last gave an evangelical Christian the opportunity to produce a film demonstrating the evils of secularism? Do you not think that in an open and democratic society when you are allowed to make a 'documentary' attacking whole groups of people that they should at least be allowed some right of reply? Of course that is not going to happen – because as you well know, those who are primarily in charge of our media outlets are those who share many of your presuppositions and prefer to make programmes which present Christians as either weak ineffective Anglican vicars, or tub thumping American Right Wing Evangelists who want to hang gays. Anything other than this simplistic view would be wrong. It is propaganda – not truth, not reason, not debate and most certainly not fair.

A few weeks ago it was reported that there was a meeting of BBC Executives where some had the gall to challenge the prevailing BBC philosophy. At that meeting it was admitted that the policy of the BBC was that secularism was the only philosophy to which others must eventually come. In other words other philosophies and belief systems can be tolerated but they must never be allowed any real say in the BBC. Some had the audaciousness to suggest that perhaps the BBC should recognise that secularism was a philosophy and not the philosophy. I hope that you will support such pluralistic open-mindedness.

But I suspect that you have written your book, not because atheists are a persecuted minority needing to come out of the closet, but rather because the atheist hegemony is now being challenged from all sides. In fact, having had a century of elitist domination and control many in the Western World are beginning to wake up to the fact that the secular emperor has no clothes. The 20th Century can truly be called the Failed Atheist Century. Can I recommend that you read an excellent book on this subject, written by one of your Oxford colleagues Niall Ferguson, The War of the World (History's Age of Hatred)? He shares your evolutionary secularist presuppositions but his account of the 20th Century is a stunning indictment of the failure of secularism and 'science' to bring peace on earth.

Your book comes across as a desperate attempt to shore up secularism's crumbling defences. To that extent it reminds me a lot of some of us in the Church, who faced with what seems to be overwhelming odds and staring defeat in the face, sometimes issue evangelistic tracts, articles and books which rather than really being aimed at the conversion of unbelievers are really designed to shore up the faith of the faithful. The God Delusion fits nicely into that category. I am sure you will delight your disciples, such as Philip Pullman, establishing what they already believe, but I very much doubt you will make any impact on others who are less fixed in their opinions and who really are seekers after truth. What I do appreciate about what you say is that, unlike the cowards and the lazy who want to deny its existence, you admit that there is such a thing as truth. You may laugh at the idea that the truth is ultimately found in Jesus Christ. However I remain an optimist. I believe not only in truth but also in the power of God and his Holy Spirit to bring enlightenment to even the darkest mind. So there is still hope for us both,

Yours etc

David Robertson

Comments 1 - 50 of 580 | | View Alternate Comment Thread

Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers

1. Comment #5685 by Jared on November 10, 2006 at 1:29 pm

I couldn't even make it past the first paragraph. There is honestly no need to respond in any greater detail than that.

2. Comment #5687 by Randy Ping on November 10, 2006 at 1:33 pm

Wow, it really got to him. What a paranoidal rant.
He really must feel threatened to feel the need to write himself, essentialy, a re-affirmation letter so full of straw men and self-delusion.

3. Comment #5691 by vega on November 10, 2006 at 1:49 pm

At least he refrained from saying he'd pray for us.

Again, no defense of his mythology, only attacks upon reasoned criticism of it.

Did he say he's gonna review a chapter a week. Josh - please don't post them here!

4. Comment #5695 by Jared on November 10, 2006 at 1:58 pm

OK. I made it a little bit further in this time! Maybe by the end of the weekend I'll finish the article before I get overcome by frustration and have to divert my attention elsewhere.

But, re: this piece -- WOW. And people accuse Dawkins of being arrogant and vicious? Geez.

I can summarize what I've read to this point in two words: Ad hominem.

Oh, and I do wish people would stop mentioning the Tamil Tigers. Yes, they may be a secularist group. The point is, they aren't killing to spread atheism or even in the NAME of atheism. They fall under the same heading as Stalin in the group of people who pursue an ideology with the same sort of blind faith as others pursue religion.

5. Comment #5696 by fun2bfree on November 10, 2006 at 2:00 pm

Quote: "I believe not only in truth but also in the power of God and his Holy Spirit to bring enlightenment to even the darkest mind. So there is still hope for us both"

to use the title of a new book:
Don't believe everything you think.

This piece is precisely the sort of "thinking" that Dawkins is actually combatting--it is not religion, not God belief per se.. any strong vigorous certainty which is founded only on one's own beliefs and thoughts is wrong...not because it is not true..sometimes such a belief could be true- but the methodology is fundamentally flawed--the ultimate method of determining truth is evidence based--scientific reason...revelation, authority, tradition, faith are not always wrong..the record so far is that they are not better than random guesses--science is unique and better because it moves us toward greater understanding by building on what went before..and is reproducible--revelation if lost may never be rediscovered...scientific truths are always there to be rediscovered by scientific inquiry...

6. Comment #5703 by jack on November 10, 2006 at 2:32 pm

A problem w/ saying that religion is incompatible w/ science. (Dawkins)

Last year the society of neuroscience(science) led off their annual conference w/ the Dali Lama(religion).

Dawkins doesn't consider Buddhism religious in the typical sense, but it is, nonetheless, a religion, freighted w/ all of the mythical b.s. (reincarnation).

I just think discrimination is in order, even in the big three religions(christianity/the cloud of unknowing, Islam/the sufi mystics, Judaism/kabbalah etc.) If there are scraps or maybe pearls to be found in the crap heaps of religion, and science can aid and verify them, possibly finding the benefits of such practices, which are most likely finite, than maybe there can be some meeting point.

Just a thought..

7. Comment #5704 by Aussie on November 10, 2006 at 2:39 pm

Dawkins is not a fundamentalist.

A fundamentalist is 100% certain of his position.

Since Dawkins expresses his position in terms of probabilities and concedes that he is, say, 95% certain that there is no god he accepts that there is a 5% chance that his hypothesis could be wrong.

It would be interesting to see whether David Robertson would be prepared to concede that there is a 5% chance that he may be wrong. Very unlikely. That is the mark of a true fundamentalist. He doesn't just believe - he KNOWS.

8. Comment #5709 by goddogit on November 10, 2006 at 3:08 pm

Mr. Robertson is another of the multitude of faux-"believers", but doesn't want to admit the fact, at least in public. Religion, except in the "might as well be an atheists" "social-bonding" sense, plays no obvious role in his life or thought, but he is of the sort of so-called conservative stripe that never admits something is broken. and further claims that nothing broken can ever be fixed.

TGD has provided me with invaluable proof that most "religious" people are nothing of the sort, and their arguments are as bluntly dishonest if not as baly written, as those of the typical creationist (and no more insulting can I be than that).
It is a relief to see them expose themselves like this, for such dishonesty taints every argument they make on any issue and I can simply focus on their real actions and the results obtained.

9. Comment #5711 by Paul Creber on November 10, 2006 at 3:12 pm

More than 2,400 words, and not one of them offering the remotest justification for belief in a man/god born of a virgin who came back from the dead and along the way employed the laws of nature as his plaything. Is it really Richard Dawkins who "offers no empirical evidence" for his philosophy? Or might it just be David Robertson?

10. Comment #5714 by Aussie on November 10, 2006 at 3:31 pm

Robertson is typical of the parochial Western elite mentality, most common the USA, which ignores the competing beliefs of most of the rest of humanity as thought they don't even exist. What makes him think that his particular religion is superior to all others on offer.

If he insists that god exists it is then up to him to explain why the one he has chosen, or more likely has been born into, is the only one worthy of consideration

Robertson himself has to be a fundamental atheist with respect to Allah, Lord Brahma and the multitude of others that are available to choose from in the marketplace.

11. Comment #5718 by Paul Creber on November 10, 2006 at 3:46 pm

One quick request: Let's refrain from ad hominem attacks and pejorative descriptions of other postings and articles. I notice, for instance, that the title of Robertson's article is described on this site as "stupid". Use of adjectives like this does the sceptic cause no good. We have the rational arguments. Please let's use them, and nothing else. Thanks.

12. Comment #5720 by Paul Creber on November 10, 2006 at 3:58 pm

Apologies, my mistake. Didn't realise Robertson had coined the title himself. Stupid of me.

13. Comment #5721 by No More Hornets on November 10, 2006 at 3:58 pm

Paul:

If we don't call the title of Robertson's article stupid, can we at least call it no-brainer, knee-jerk, or obvious? Why do these people believe that they're being so clever when they merely jump on the first half-witticism that pops into their heads?

Some other anti-Dawkins article titles I'm looking forward to:

The Selfish Dawkins
The Dawkins Gene
The Blind Dawkinsmaker
The Extended Dawkotype
Undawkinsing the Rainbow
Richard out of Eden

14. Comment #5723 by Paul Creber on November 10, 2006 at 4:10 pm

No More Hornets:
I like it.
How about: the Deaf Shoemaker, the Ancestor's Tail, the Shellfish Gene or - in the Scandinavian edition – River out of Sweden?

15. Comment #5730 by mark on November 10, 2006 at 5:12 pm

i am an atheist and i used to think "am i just an atheist proselytizer. am i as bad as the evangelists?" then i thought "of course not" simply because there is reason in our arguments. i might call my self an atheist "persuader" if even that.

16. Comment #5731 by Greg on November 10, 2006 at 5:26 pm

Well, as an atheist public school teacher from Florida, let me tell you: it's REALLY easy to "come out" as an atheist, and there's no way my career would suffer. Give me a break.

17. Comment #5732 by Yorker on November 10, 2006 at 5:38 pm

Friends,

Sometimes we have a tendency to be excessively harsh in dealing with religious commenter's here. I think there are broadly two types; the simplistic amateur believer and the professional pseudo-intellectual kind. Generally, I think it would be wise if we offered help and guidance to the simplistic type instead of ridiculing them and treating like idiots; I myself have been guilty of this but now see the error of my ways.

As for the semi-intellectuals, well, they are a different story; their writings indicate they have some education and intelligence but are prepared to throw both out the window on behalf of their god. Robertson and his ilk will lose heavily when religion is finally ditched, so it's easy to see why this kind is against us. This type of religite (rhymes with Israelite) deserves to be thoroughly lambasted and ridiculed even if only for their intellectual hypocrisy, and their silly attempts to argue against intelligent people without having a shred of evidence in their favour.

Personally, I feel that's all we need do, It's as Dawkins says; this is not a case where there are two closely matched proposals, atheists live in reality, religites live in fairyland, perhaps all we should do is keep reminding them of that simple fact.

18. Comment #5740 by john_mcc on November 10, 2006 at 6:45 pm

I'll give the author the benefit of the doubt and assume that the real apologetics are going to start in the promised chapter by chapter letters yet to come, since all that we have here otherwise is something that any Christian who had only read the dust jacket of the book could have written combined with some complaints about Western civilisation being far more secular than it appears to the rest of us.

However, I will say now that Mr Robertson does not seem to be aware that his own organisation - The Free Church Of Scotland - actually are the strawman that mainstream Christian critics tend to complain about atheists attacking. It is ironic that he complains in this article about Christians being caricatured as "tub thumping American Right Wing Evangelists who want to hang gays" when the Free Church is responsible for their home turf The Western Isles being the only part of the UK to ban Gay couples from holding marriage ceremonies, as can be read at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2090-1938742,00.html

I remember the "enlightened" Free Church forcing Lord Mackay (at the time the Lord Chancellor) to resign from the Church for committing the sin of attending a friend's funeral, since his friend being a Catholic had a Catholic ceremony. I strongly doubt that such sectarian bigotry is more likely to contribute more to world peace than Science and reason, nor is it a good advertisement for the benefits of religion on society.

19. Comment #5761 by Allison on November 10, 2006 at 11:12 pm

What absolute crap this Robertson writes. This man is so full if himself and the BS that he spouts. Well it's obvious he has not spent much time over here in the States. I don't advertise my atheism unless it comes up in conversation but I don't hide it either. Here is a list of incidents I've had at various jobs over the last 15 years:

1) Threatened by fundementalist conservative Christian with "People like you need to have a bullet in the head." When in conversation he discovered that I was an atheist. Luckily I worked for a government contractor, the Air Force colonel who was our customer was an old friend of mine and our site manager was stationed with me when I was in the USAF. The obnoxious man was given the choice of either quitting or taking a transfer. Talk about turning a situation around. };>

2) At same company, religious leaflets left at my desk and two other co-workers (Buddhist and Jewish) at Christmas. Threw them in the trash when the person who probably left them came over to my desk. The look on the person's face was priceless when I remarked that some insensitive asshole left these tracts on our desks.

3) At another company, the manager held a christmas party where it was "strongly encouraged" that one attended. At said party, the manager and his wife tried to turn the party into some kind of testimonial for fundamentalist Christianity. It ended up me, my husband, and a co-worker and his wife stayed in another room with our own non-religious conversation. I left the company shortly afterwards because of remarks from my manager. I knew that when he found out that I was an atheist, I would probably be let go. I went back to a research position at lower pay, but where I could be myself. Incidently, the research position was one I had left some years before and my boss there kept asking me back. :)

I await with baited breath for his review of each chapter. Not.

20. Comment #5764 by Nick on November 11, 2006 at 12:31 am

What makes more sense. Life created from the top down or
down up. The evidence is there. People just have to get their
head around the great amount of time evolution has taken.
God has always existed to explain the inexplicable (is that a
word) and that domain is getting increasingly smaller over time.

21. Comment #5770 by Will on November 11, 2006 at 1:24 am

I've just sent the following e-mail to David Robertson, and I'll be interested to see if if produces any response, either to me personally, or in the form of postings here.

Hello -

As you are probably aware, your article has been reposted to the Richard Dawkins website where it has attracted a great deal of attention - some 35 posts to date.

Unfortunately, the general tenor of these posts (and, to be candid, I'm in general agreement with them) is unfavourable. The key criticism, which is made over and over again is that you have launched what is largely an ad hominem attack, and that you do not say a word to support a Christian, or even a theist position. It's neatly summed up by one contributor (not me) who says:

'More than 2,400 words, and not one of them offering the remotest justification for belief in a man/god born of a virgin who came back from the dead and along the way employed the laws of nature as his plaything. Is it really Richard Dawkins who "offers no empirical evidence" for his philosophy? Or might it just be David Robertson?'

You say: Over the next few weeks I want to write a letter in response to each of your chapters.

That's certainly a laudable intention, but you are undertaking to write a total of ten letters, and I shall watch with interest (as will others!) to see if you go through with it.

Personally, I don't think you can find the evidence or the rational arguments to defeat Dawkins on his main thesis, but, if you could, it would be for me a life-changing event. So I watch with interest to see if you actually carry out what you have undertaken.

(By the way, I'm merely a visitor to the Dawkins web site; I'm in no way at all responsible for its operation.)

With best wishes,

22. Comment #5777 by goddogit on November 11, 2006 at 2:59 am

Dear David R.,

Let's see your cards before discussing how reasonable any vitriol, as you so quaintly refer to it, is condemned wholesale. When people tell me that if I accept that legendary pile of manure the pony must certainly be nearby, and I find it not to be so, expletives are perhaps understandable, in the sense that Mark Twain described.

So, "Honest" Dave, let's get to it!

Do you accept that Jesus is your personal savior, who was the one and only son of God (of the OT) and was physically resurrected after death?

Do you believe that Mary was a virgin?

Is the Bible to be taken as literally true? As partially literally true? As entirely fictitious? Please explain on what basis your position can be defended.

Why is any supernatural being needed in order to accept the (occasional) wisdom in the Bible?

How is your belief in Jesus as the son-of-god any better than a Hindu's in Rama, etc., etc., etc.

(And a last, in the "when did you stop beating your wife" tradition)

When are you going to read TGD and admit you are unable to counter ANY of Prof. Dawkins' arguments, except by insult and smirking Xian slander?

Alas, all of these must remain rhetorical questions - real Christians have no need to engage them, except by smiling in agreement (they know the answer to Jesus' final question, My gos, why hast thou forsaken me?"), while boobs like yourself simply reach into their pants and plan how to extort their next dollar or pound.

23. Comment #5778 by Aussie on November 11, 2006 at 3:25 am

My initial reaction was "Is this guy for real or is it some jerk posing as David Robertson having a laugh by just trying to wind us all up".

On reflection it seems that he is genuine.

If so I would just like to complement you David on your effort (as such a post would have taken considerable time to prepare and present). Although I find much of your logic difficult to get my head around I did consider some of the points you raised as worthy of discussion to the extent that I would like to see them explored in a mutually non adversarial manner. It is rather difficult to do in a forum like this where you must feel beseiged on all sides. I would be prepared to fight along side you so you do not feel entirely alone. It is actually a very instructive experience to argue a position diametrically opposite that which you in reality hold.

You did manage to avoid an openly abusive stance even though much of your tone was distinctly patronising. In spite of these minor irritations I appreciate your input and must admit to genuinely enjoying reading it. Thank you for your considered contribution and keep any sequels coming.

24. Comment #5782 by Aussie on November 11, 2006 at 3:46 am

By the way just a small point.

"Do most people not already know that is perfectly possible to leave a religion and not suffer any significant social consequences – at least in non-Islamic countries?"

Although this comment is not central or essential to your main argument you must know that it is wrong. Apostates in several Christian sects such as the Exclusive Bretheren, to which my paternal grandfather belonged, frequently destroy the lives of those who leave the faith.

But don't worry. Even Dawkins made a few similar inconsequential errors in TGD but these do not materially detract from the thrust of his argument.

25. Comment #5784 by oj on November 11, 2006 at 3:55 am

Bravo David Robertson,

Not only did you take the time to read "The God Delusion" (Btw, I'm pretty sure President Bush never will takes his time to do that). You also took the time to write a long article about your reaction, and now you join this discussion.

Some of the comments here are a bit rough, but still you take the time to comment on them.
(I aggree with you - let's keep away from personal abuse!)

I look forward to your promised take on the different chapters from the book. But, perhaps you could give us a short reply here on one (central) questions raised:

"Is the Bible to be taken as literally true?"

Kind regards,

Ole in Norway

26. Comment #5787 by Aussie on November 11, 2006 at 4:07 am

To commence my support of your position I would just like to say that I found your entire second paragraph quite to the point and except for your assertion below

"(nothing like wanting to indoctrinate children is there?)"

would not disagree with it as I had independently entertained similar thoughts to those that you have expressed. It was actually quite well written and rather amusing.

There are other parts of your essay with similar merit.

27. Comment #5789 by Aussie on November 11, 2006 at 4:16 am

".. to understand that the faith Christians have in God and Christ is not actually based on science, but on a personal relationship with God and Christ."

".. to understand that the faith Muslems have in Allah and the Prophet is not actually based on science, but on a personal relationship with Allah and the Prophet.

".. to understand that the faith Hindus have in Lord Brahma and Vishnu is not actually based on science, but on a personal relationship with Lord Brahma and Vishnu."

28. Comment #5793 by Aussie on November 11, 2006 at 4:51 am

Finlay,

But this lies at the heart of the issue. Three mutually exclusive (even antagonistic) propositions. I would be interested to learn why the Christian option is always assumed superior to the other guys'. The others are just as (indeed perhaps more so) convinced of their relationship with their god as the Christian is with his. Someone has to be deluded and why is it always the other guy.

29. Comment #5794 by Jared on November 11, 2006 at 5:08 am

Rev. Robertson,

You state that "Name calling and shouting does not really constitute rational argument"

I could not agree with you more. Many of the posts here do not consist of rational arguments and, if we are to keep this discussion on the level of reasoned debate, must be left out.

However, rational arguments must also be free from fallacy, if said arguments are to be considered a sound way to reach conclusions. As such, perhaps we can discuss fallacies.

From your letter:

"[...] imprisoned in the snare of their own religion until the good knight, Sir Richard Dawkins, rides to their rescue and sets them free?! " - Straw Man (making Dawkins's desire to convince people of his position look ridiculous)

"Most of the arguments are of sixth form school boy variety" - Style over substance (Assumes that arguments presented in 'sixth form school boy' style must needs be faulty arguments, also pejorative labeling of the argument's tone without disproving its logic.)

"Do you really think that people are that stupid? Do most people not already know that is perfectly possible to leave a religion and not suffer any significant social consequences – at least in non-Islamic countries? I was brought up in a religious home and knew from a very young age that not only was it possible to leave, but that for many people it would be considered normal" - Hasty generalization (One person's experience is not a wide enough sample to make inferences about a larger population)

"And of course you have stated that you do not discuss with 'fundamentalists' or those who would be stupid enough to disagree with you." - Straw Man (Simplifying Dawkins's reasons for limiting his arguments into an easily attackable form)

"This is rather obvious even from the people who write the blurb on the jacket cover, admittedly not normally unbiased objective judges" - Begging the question (That blurbs on book jackets are or should be objective and/or balanced)

"[...]but then they would wouldn't they? Each of them being convinced atheists already and fairly desperate to have their particular belief system endorsed. " - Faulty Generalization (All atheists agree)

"[...] unlike the cowards and the lazy who want to deny its existence, you admit that there is such a thing as truth. " - Ad Hominem (All people who disbelieve in objective truth are cowards or lazy, ignoring any arguments they may have)

Please bear in mind that these are a representative sample, but by no means all of the fallacious statements contained within the article. Also note that I am not implying that your conclusions are unsound, merely that the steps you took to get there (and, therefore, the steps by which you wish to convince readers of the truth of your conclusions) are unsound.

Perhaps, in your subsequent letters, you can focus on attacking the arguments without resorting to fallacious means. It will not affect the truth value of your statements, but it might make them more convincing. Cheers!

30. Comment #5799 by Yorker on November 11, 2006 at 6:13 am

Finlay,

Your impudence is remarkable. You blether about the bad logic of others while holding the most illogical stance of all, yourself! Is ignorance of Christian faith a flaw of some kind? Of course not, an atheist would perhaps consider your unwillingness to face reality, to be a serious mental aberration.

We atheists live in the real world; I don't personally know Richard Dawkins but I believe he exists because I've seen him, read writings he puts his name to, he has offspring and a wife that live here on Earth, and I visit his website. These and many other things lead me to accept his reality.

You, and others who suffer the same delusion, are prepared to not only accept but to worship an ephemeral entity simply because people (humans) told you to! What a waste of life, the only one you'll ever have. But let's say you're right, god exists and we atheists are a bunch of fools; well, after a microsecond's thought, I'm still glad I chose atheism because I've led a life of freedom, I use my time wisely because I know it's limited, and I don't have to waste time massaging the ego of a non-existent thing that pathetically needs worshipping. I cannot say for certain that your god doesn't exist and you cannot say for certain that he/she/it does; the difference is simple, I, logically admit I may be wrong, you illogically, can't.

Perhaps you sincerely think you have a personal relationship with your god, but without a shred of evidence, surely you can see why we sane people consider you deluded. Like the rest of us, you live your daily life based upon evidence, you live in a society with an evidence-based legal system, those who fail to make evidential decisions in daily life, don't live long! Of course when it suits you, and you know it will have no affect on your life, you just ignore the evidence.

All educated people know the real reason for the existence of religion, those who know it but won't admit it, are simply hypocrites. Unfortunately, there are many uneducated believers, who don't know the truth and use religion as a crutch because they simply can't face reality; religion encourages feeble minded people to avoid reality.

"Just listen to what the 'reverend' says and part with your cash!"

The very word 'reverend' reeks of egotistical superior-sounding bullshit! Why would any sane human being revere anyone who's no better than any other kind of charlatan? Dawkins is right, religion is mental abuse forced upon humans when they're too young to defend themselves. I consider it a despicable, cowardly act designed not to help the child, but to perpetuate the nonsense of religion for those who benefit from its continuation. Like the rest of us, you were born an atheist; sadly, you had parents who decided to abuse you.

The days of your belief system are numbered Finlay, the world is a dynamic place; that which does not change with the world dies, religion is an outdated static doctrine that cannot change without exposing its own folly; it will therefore expire. At this very moment, I think we may be witnessing the last futile writhing of religion before the unstoppable advance of human intellect consigns it to life's garbage can. But don't despair, all you have to do is renounce your god, the illness will be cured and we will make you welcome.

31. Comment #5802 by Yorker on November 11, 2006 at 6:29 am

Re Comment #5794.

Nice one Jared!

The 'Rev' was so full of shit he's probably glad your tore him a new asshole!

32. Comment #5812 by Yorker on November 11, 2006 at 8:05 am

William,

I can understand what you say about your grandmother, but keep in mind that in her time, public consciousness about religion wasn't what it is today. She probably didn't think of her remarks as being harmful, she was just trying to 'keep you in line' as it were.

Yes, time is precious, and the older you get the more precious it becomes, using it wisely brings great self-satisfaction.

Incidentally, thanks for your kind words!

33. Comment #5813 by G Bile on November 11, 2006 at 8:12 am

William, your recent comment reminds me of a little story about the 'consolation' provided by religious belief:

Mary, age 10, rides her bicycle when she is fatally hit by a drunken driver. Her parents are devastated.
1. The next morning the Pastor comes to visit and talks with the parents. "I am sure Mary is a little angel now, and is playing happily with God in heaven".
OR:
2. The next morning the Pastor comes to visit and talks with the parents. "Let us pray together, because God must be angry with you to let this happen".

34. Comment #5815 by Yorker on November 11, 2006 at 8:21 am

G Bile,

Remarks 1 and 2 by the pastor are equally bad.

The first is an insult to the parents intelligence, the second is a slap on the wrist. Any pastor uttering words like that to me, would leave minus a few teeth!

35. Comment #5821 by Riley on November 11, 2006 at 9:38 am

Here's just two, really simple examples of observational fallacies in David Robertson's letter :

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FALLACY 1: "God" probably exists, therefore the God of the Bible exists.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Read and listen to Dawkins and you realize that he accepts that the existance of "God" (a creator of the universe) is an open, however improbable, conjecture.

Dawkins' Atheism (my own included) is directed toward the God of the Bible, the same as it is toward Vishnu, Poseidon, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and all the other Gods toward which Mr.Robertson, I would guess you are also an Atheist.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FALLACY 2: Secularism is Atheism
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Secularism, promotes neutrality and open mindedness by being silent on matters that are unresolved and especially those matters that are fundamentally unresolveable (e.g. matters of faith). And, if God's very existance is not unresolved, then at least you must admit that the will of God is an unresolved issue..

Being silent on the subject of god, does not attack one position or favor another; it's a position of neutrality.

*Silence* on the subject of god is not Atheism, any more so than *silence* on the matter of wether or not "Jesus is Christ" is Judaism, or *silence* on the matter of wether or not the "Pope is Christ's representative to lead His church on Earth" is protestantism.



------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------

36. Comment #5826 by Randy Ping on November 11, 2006 at 9:56 am

So , David Robinson... where is the evidence? Hmm?
WHy is it that your claims need never be proved?
I noticed something long ago when I actualy WAS a religious person; the criteria of what defines "God" changes every time it is proven false. Jesus was a a step up from the frothing homicidal god of the OT, but he made promisses (like the one in which he said that the kingdom of God would be fullfilled in the lifetime of his followers) that proved to not happen.
He was a great man, for his time. ANd the simple fact is this: He was just a man who thought he had a better way than those of his time.
THe fact that CHristian Theology paints a beautifull picture in the minds of it's adherants does nothing to prove it's thruthfullness.
It's like designing a marvelous expansive pentouse apartment, as somebody else ppointed out, on top of a tall building with the absolute worst of foundations. It doesn't matter how nice it looks, it is founded on falsity. It has been proven wrong time and time again; and every time it is proven false, it repackages its' falsities. It's like taking a dog dropping and putting it in a Hershey chocolate bar wrapper. Sure, it says chocolate, but then when you peel off the shiney foil and wonderfully designed sleeve, it is what it is: a large stinking turd.
Please, I beg you in the name of reason sir, stop trying to justify a dog dropping as a genuine chocolate bar.

37. Comment #5846 by Steve on November 11, 2006 at 11:22 am

William,

Jesus was not a liar.

Jesus never existed.

Non-existent people can't lie.

Somebody else lied.

38. Comment #5854 by Paul Creber on November 11, 2006 at 12:00 pm

Dear David Robertson,
Thank you for taking the trouble to reply to the posts on this site. I do indeed appreciate that in a mere 2,400 words not everything can be dealt with. But when the central purpose of that 2,400 words is an attempt at rebuttal by a Christian of the atheist position, am I not entitled to expect at least some attempt to defend core Christian beliefs?

39. Comment #5861 by Jared on November 11, 2006 at 12:34 pm

David Robertson: "The very thing that you accuse me of is what Dawkins does. By implication, if not explicitly he states that religious people only remain in their religion out of fear and ignorance. Once they attain higher consiousness (and that is the alleged purpose of his book) they will be set free."

See, again, this is simplifying the issue. I believe Dawkins argues that he is writing his book neither to people who are already disbelievers, nor to people who are fully immersed in belief. As I recall, he says he is writing to that sort of person who considers him/herself religious but doesn't think about it very much. I don't believe that he calls this group of people necessarily ignorant or even fearful. I think he is just trying to show these people who are 'religious' mostly only by tradition that there are other points of view that, perhaps, they have not considered very strongly.

I am not in a position, at the moment, to determine whether there are many straw men lurking in Dawkins's book. My guess is that there may be a few ('faith-heads' springs to mind). It is difficult to argue, at times, without them, even though they make an argument sort of collapse in on itself regardless of how good its conclusions may be.

The reason that I think any straw men he may or may not make are somewhat forgivable is that he has written an entire book dedicated to this issue. There are segments dealing with various proofs for God's existence, explanations for the prevalence of religious behavior from the evolutionary and sociobiological spheres, and many quotations from the bible which he uses to demonstrate his points (or at least the specific point that, if we get our morality from the bible, but pick and choose bits and pieces of it, then there must be some other factor than the bible which determines our morality -- a fair, logical argument.)

Most of these arguments pay specific attention to the other side and, if he were simply reducing them to the straw man of 'faith heads' all along, he would not need to spend so much time and text on the matter. I'd wager that most of his points are not guilty of major logical fallacies.

While I would agree with you that, at times, his tone is a bit strong and even, perhaps, arrogant, I still submit that this does nothing to change the logical strength or weakness of his argument. I have taken pains, since my first two knee-jerk reactions to your letter, to not make the same mistake towards you and your occasionally arrogant-seeming tone.

The fact is that, in some cases, I can't blame you for reacting the way you have to these comments. But you claim to be an educated man (I am not insulting you by saying 'claim to be': I don't know whether you are or not since I have no idea about your studies, so I'll accept your claim at face value). Given your intelligence, I have to assume that you realize that 'like breeds like' in these situations. In other words, responding to comments of whose tone you are critical in an equally desultory and provocative tone (eg "I'm sure Dawkins would be embarrassed to be defended by such disciples.") is only sure to result in more such comments rolling in. Not to mention that you label all of us as 'disciples,' when there are a whole range of personalities present, each of whom agrees and/or disagrees with Dr. Dawkins on a range of things. I have not found anyone with whose opinion I completely agree, either on this site or in the person of Dr Dawkins himself, and resent being called a disciple when I am none.

One thing I do share with Dr. Dawkins is an admiration of the clergy (yes, he does admit fondness for Anglican vicars and even some bishops!) Your job is surely a demanding one, and not an easy living (having made less money than that in my prior occupation, I can surely understand that side of things). But, when it comes to a rational, logical debate, I do not pull my punches, whether my opponent be priest, Doctor, or village idiot, because such things don't matter when logic, and not men, are up for debate. The difference is that neither will I treat my opponent with arrogance, regardless of their occupation, faith, or tone of argument. Nor will I deviate from according them the same respect I accord all people.

Cheers!

40. Comment #5864 by Skeptic Jim on November 11, 2006 at 12:45 pm

Every time I read an article like this one I feel more and more satisfied with the whole concept of atheism, safe in the knowledge that this is the best argument the opposition can come up with.

41. Comment #5865 by Randy Ping on November 11, 2006 at 12:46 pm

Again, David, Where is the evidence?
Do you have any other than your "relationship" with your imaginary friend?
Been there, my friend, and I hate to tell you but you are, in fact, deluding yourself and eluding the total; and complete lack of evidence for the so-called 'word of God'.
Ever heard of Perseus, virgin birth, son of Zeus, came to save people from the monster...
sound familiar.
It's a myth, just like your god.
Again, you have absolutely ZERO evidence.
What else should we call it but what it is?
Adn if it is all to be taken as metaphor, then why bother with it at all.
It is lies, pure and simple. Artfully constructed LIES.
Personaly, I'd love to see all of you snake oil sellers dragged into court on fraud charges.

42. Comment #5881 by oj on November 11, 2006 at 1:54 pm

Hi again David Robertson,

Thanks for the answer even if you kind of "escaped" it.

Perhaps I can ask you this:

Would it be possible for you to read the bible like an ordinary book, and not as a scripture?
(Read it like you just read Dawkins book)

You see, if I read the Old Testament, I'm suddenly brought back into the late bronze age.
According to some Bible scholars, the Old Testament was composed between the 5th century BC and the 2nd century BC, though parts of it, such as the Torah, date back much earlier.

In chapter 7 in TGD, Dawkins talk about the "Good" Book and the changing moral "Zeitgeist".
He also gives some recent examples (late 1800, early 1900 - eg. like Wells 1902-thinking). Not long ago, but very strange today.

If we move back in time, "adjusting" the Zeitgeist, we can perhaps understand some of the (now) absurd moral of Joshua (at Jerico) and the other characters.

If we now "move" thousand year forward into the Roman time, where Yeshua (also called Jesus - a very common name) appeared, we see that the Zeitgeist has changed. BUT, there are still a lot of ugly morals in the New Testament (as Dawkins give several examples of).

If we compare the Old and New Testament with other books from that period, we will see a
similar Zeitgeist (like instruction for genocide, enslavements, rape, etc. etc.).

As pointed out in TGD, no one is selling the Iliad or our Nordic Saga as a foundation for morality. BUT, the Bible is sold, and bought, as a guide to how people should live their lives. Therein lies the problem.

I'm pretty sure that you, David Robertson, only use a minor part of what Jesus said as your moral guide (The Golden Rule, etc.) - but what about the rest - the major part of that book?

Regards,

Ole

43. Comment #5884 by CF1 on November 11, 2006 at 2:47 pm

Quote by David Robertson: You may laugh at the idea that the truth is ultimately found in Jesus Christ.

Wow, that's so deep. (sorry for the sarcasm....couldn't help it).

David, do you realize that when pressed, even theologans & biblical scholars will admit that we know almost NOTHING of the life of Jesus. And the teeny weeny bit of "stuff" we do have is about as reliable as a broken clock.

44. Comment #5885 by goddogit on November 11, 2006 at 3:03 pm

David R. trots out more of the party line, evidently meant to impress himself (a difficult task, I do admit, since he could hardly seem to be more full of himself).

He pretty much lost me in his second reply, when he copped out with a classic: "The answer to that is depends what you mean by literally. That is not a cop out." Humpty Dumpty couldn't have said it much better.
And as for the "modesty" of his financial success in using superstition to earn a living, my reply is that the amount of success or failure is only a factor in deciding sentence, and does nothing to absolve the perpetrator of the crime, especially if they show no remorse, nor intend to reflect upon it.

He did get one point right, perhaps since I made it explicit: I have no respect for his posing, and whatever share his take is in the swag of religion, I have not the least respect for him or those foolish enough to accept his nonsense. He isn't even a good "bad Christian."

45. Comment #5893 by CF1 on November 11, 2006 at 3:39 pm

Precious little Hugh, precious little.

Even Tom Harpur (author of The Pagan Christ) suggests that it is entirely possible that jesus never actually existed.

46. Comment #5898 by nemo on November 11, 2006 at 3:52 pm

Notice that the entire article does not even remotely address any of Dawkins's substantive arguments, or offer arguments (rather than assertions,of which the entire article is comprised of) of its own. Enough said...lets not waste any more of our time.

47. Comment #5901 by john_mcc on November 11, 2006 at 4:11 pm

David R. I apologise for confusing your church with the one that Lord Mackay resigned from. The critisism in that part of my post was obviously directed towards the church that was involved in that scandal and not yours.

48. Comment #5910 by Riley on November 11, 2006 at 6:39 pm

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Robertson [Comment #5840] wrote:
"Riley, Sadly you replied to something I did not say. "

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

David,

Right, I didn't quote you. But you definitely say a lot which relies in large part on the two observational fallacies I noted above. For the sake of argument, I'll relate my points directly to a few of your statements:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fallacy #1 Relates to your claim that: Dawkins is a fundementalist Atheist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[David Robertson Wrote:]"What is disturbing about this is that [Richard Dawkin's] fundamentalist atheism will actually be taken seriously"

[David Robertson Wrote:]"He says that the existence of God is as likely as the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Now do you really for a moment think that to any degree he considers the Flying Spaghetti Monster to exist. In that we can know about anything, Dawkins 'knows' that neither the Flying Spaghetti Monster nor God exist. "

No, Dawkins does not say that the existence of God is as likely as the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It's an understandable error on your part and very common among people who don't listen to much of what Dawkins says.

What Dawkins says is that the "God of the Bible" is as likely to exist as the "Flying Spaghetti Monster".

If you read and listen to Dawkins (as I believe that you have), you couldn't even really call Dawkins an Atheist, much less a fundementalist one. Dawkins, in every interview and article where the question is brought up, always acknowleges the reasonable possibilty (5%, I saw someone write) that there exists a creator of the universe - such a definition of God is simply not the Christian definition of God.

Dawkins of course does describe himself as an "atheist" but I think he would say that such an overly simplistic label is necessary to avoid a greater confuson. It's a situation created by the Christian dogma which insists that the only possible god is the God of the Bible.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fallacy #2 Relates to your implicit claim that: Secularism promotes, or otherwise has something to do with Atheism.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


[David Robertson Wrote:]"Can you tell me when Channel 4 or even the BBC last gave an evangelical Christian the opportunity to produce a film demonstrating the evils of secularism?"

From this and the general tone of your writing, I think you are equating secularism and atheism. This is my reasoning:

Why would you introduce "secularism" into the debate between Theism and Atheism and as the target to be attacked in response to Dawkins' "The Root of All Evil?" documentary, unless you see secularism and atheism as so strongly connected that they are interchangeable? (in much the same way as "religion" and "belief in the supernatural" are essentially interchangeable)

What possible problem could you have with the secular idea, that an uncommited neutral position should be assumed in matters, such as faith, that are fundementally unresolveable ? It is secularism that has provided the opportunity for the enormous growth and spread of faith in the U.S..

Here's another quote:
[David Robertson Wrote:]"Colin - you are missing the point re the BBC [...] [The point] is that the default starting postion for everything is secularism and atheism. The BBC would not allow for one minute anyone to make a programme defending the existence of God"

First off, a quick check of BBC programming online reveals a five page listing of religious programming which includes the following: "In Praise of God", "Unitarians explain their faith", "Sunday Worship", "Prayer for the Day", and "Humphrys in Search of God" a program where an atheist interviews various religious leaders, each of whom argues in defense of the existance of God.

I can find gaggles of programing on the BBC that are dedicated to promoting the Christian faith. How many programs on the BBC can you find dedicated to promoting the idea that God doesn't exist ? (a small handful from what I see) How about in the United States? (none?)

Given how dramatically off-mark you are in your belief that the BBC wouldn't allow even "one minute" to anyone defending the existence of God, forgive me for assuming that the only way you could believe such a thing, is that you equate secularism with atheism. Forgive me also, because in the United States, I am bombarded by people who constantly equate the neutral non-commital position of secularism with atheism.

This phenomina is illustrated in the U.S. by the "prayer in school" debate. It is the insistence of our most vocal Christian leaders that school teachers should be instructing our children to pray. These same vocal Christian leaders characterize the neutral (or secular) position that: school children should be free to practice religion as they choose, as being anti-God and promoting atheism.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The foundation of most the rest of your positions can be shot down entirely with this single quote BEFORE he became our 41st President of the United States, George H.W. Bush:

"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."


What would the political future be of a candidate who declared that Christians should not be considered citizens or even that they should not be considered patriots? Forgive me for saying this, but *this* *IS* *exactly* the kind of thing the Nazis said about the Jews in the years leading up to the holocaust. Can I emphasis this a little more for you? A politician, elected to the highest office in the land, prior to his election, made that statement.

When's the last time you EVER heard an American politician proudly declare himself an Atheist? An Agnostic? How about avoid being seen going into a Church on Sunday? or embarrassed to be seen shaking the hand and chit-chatting with the pastor after church? Admittedly, I haven't done much research on the subject, but since you ridiculed Dawkins and his suggestion that Atheists are marginalized in the U.S., I assume you must have done at least a little research on the matter. I'd be curious to see the results of your research.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

49. Comment #5912 by Riley on November 11, 2006 at 7:32 pm

Holly Hardie wrote: We are yet to read ANY compelling arguements for the case of atheism

This is not the forum for discussing the case for or against Atheism. If you want to argue such a case, enter the Forum: http://richarddawkins.net/forum/

I'll post my own favorite case for atheism with regard to the existance of the God of the Bible in the Faith and Religion section.

--

50. Comment #5917 by No More Hornets on November 11, 2006 at 8:24 pm

Riley:

Yes, Dawkins is right that atheists are marginalized in the U.S. While no politician would dare admit that he or she is an atheist -- or an agnostic, skeptic, or even a "freethinker" -- most of our politicians fall all over themselves thanking god, asking him to bless America, and describing themselves as people of "faith." Clearly, they believe that this kind of thing "plays in Peoria." And, unfortunately, it does.

One insidious example of the atheist's low position in American political discourse can be gleaned by noticing the number of churches that serve as polling places. In the county where I live, 87 of 179 polling places are in Christian churches. Our Supervisor of Elections, when interviewed about this in the local newspaper, said that any person who objects to that kind of venue has the option to vote early (elsewhere) or by absentee ballot. What about the people who DON'T object, who are, in fact, inspired by voting in a church?

You can read more about church polling places by going to my "No More Hornets" blog (just click on my name at the beginning of this post) and finding my column "Get Me to the Polling Place on Time."
Reload Comments | Back to Top


Comment Entry: Please Login

Register a new account

Username:

Password: