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Friday, November 17, 2006 | Reason : Science of Religion | print version Print | Comments |

Document My God Problem

by Natalie Angier

Reposted from:
http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/angier02.htm

Born in 1958, Natalie Angier grew up in the Bronx and in Michigan; she attended Barnard College, where she studied English literature, physics, and astronomy. She was a staff member at Discover magazine before joining The New York Times in 1990. In 1991 she won the Pulitzer Prize for beat reporting as a science writer. She lives in Tacoma Park, Maryland, with her husband Rick Weiss, a science reporter for The Washington Post, and their daughter Katherine

http://www.skeptic.ca/confessions_of_a_lonely_atheist.htm
[Reprinted from The New York Times Magazine, January 14, 2001]


Natalie AngierMy God Problem
by Natalie Angier

The following article is from Free Inquiry magazine, Volume 24, Number 5.

In the course of reporting a book on the scientific canon and pestering hundreds of researchers at the nation's great universities about what they see as the essential vitamins and minerals of literacy in their particular disciplines, I have been hammered into a kind of twinkle-eyed cartoon coma by one recurring message. Whether they are biologists, geologists, physicists, chemists, astronomers, or engineers, virtually all my sources topped their list of what they wish people understood about science with a plug for Darwin's dandy idea. Would you please tell the public, they implored, that evolution is for real? Would you please explain that the evidence for it is overwhelming and that an appreciation of evolution serves as the bedrock of our understanding of all life on this planet?

In other words, the scientists wanted me to do my bit to help fix the terrible little statistic they keep hearing about, the one indicating that many more Americans believe in angels, devils, and poltergeists than in evolution. According to recent polls, about 82 percent are convinced of the reality of heaven (and 63 percent think they're headed there after death); 51 percent believe in ghosts; but only 28 percent are swayed by the theory of evolution.

Scientists think this is terrible—the public's bizarre underappreciation of one of science's great and unshakable discoveries, how we and all we see came to be—and they're right. Yet I can't help feeling tetchy about the limits most of them put on their complaints. You see, they want to augment this particular figure—the number of people who believe in evolution—without bothering to confront a few other salient statistics that pollsters have revealed about America's religious cosmogony. Few scientists, for example, worry about the 77 percent of Americans who insist that Jesus was born to a virgin, an act of parthenogenesis that defies everything we know about mammalian genetics and reproduction. Nor do the researchers wring their hands over the 80 percent who believe in the resurrection of Jesus, the laws of thermodynamics be damned.

No, most scientists are not interested in taking on any of the mighty cornerstones of Christianity. They complain about irrational thinking, they despise creationist "science," they roll their eyes over America's infatuation with astrology, telekinesis, spoon bending, reincarnation, and UFOs, but toward the bulk of the magic acts that have won the imprimatur of inclusion in the Bible, they are tolerant, respectful, big of tent. Indeed, many are quick to point out that the Catholic Church has endorsed the theory of evolution and that it sees no conflict between a belief in God and the divinity of Jesus and the notion of evolution by natural selection. If the pope is buying it, the reason for most Americans' resistance to evolution must have less to do with religion than with a lousy advertising campaign.

So, on the issue of mainstream monotheistic religions and the irrationality behind many of religion's core tenets, scientists often set aside their skewers, their snark, and their impatient demand for proof, and instead don the calming cardigan of a a kiddie-show host on public television. They reassure the public that religion and science are not at odds with one another, but rather that they represent separate "magisteria," in the words of the formerly alive and even more formerly scrappy Stephen Jay Gould. Nobody is going to ask people to give up their faith, their belief in an everlasting soul accompanied by an immortal memory of every soccer game their kids won, every moment they spent playing fetch with the dog. Nobody is going to mock you for your religious beliefs. Well, we might if you base your life decisions on the advice of a Ouija board; but if you want to believe that someday you'll be seated at a celestial banquet with your long-dead father to your right and Jane Austen to your left-and that she'll want to talk to you for another hundred million years or more—that's your private reliquary, and we're not here to jimmy the lock.

Consider the very different treatments accorded two questions presented to Cornell University's "Ask an Astronomer" Web site. To the query, "Do most astronomers believe in God, based on the available evidence?" the astronomer Dave Rothstein replies that, in his opinion, "modern science leaves plenty of room for the existence of God . . . places where people who do believe in God can fit their beliefs in the scientific framework without creating any contradictions." He cites the Big Bang as offering solace to those who want to believe in a Genesis equivalent and the probabilistic realms of quantum mechanics as raising the possibility of "God intervening every time a measurement occurs" before concluding that, ultimately, science can never prove or disprove the existence of a god, and religious belief doesn't—and shouldn't—"have anything to do with scientific reasoning."

How much less velveteen is the response to the reader asking whether astronomers believe in astrology. "No, astronomers do not believe in astrology," snarls Dave Kornreich. "It is considered to be a ludicrous scam. There is no evidence that it works, and plenty of evidence to the contrary." Dr. Kornreich ends his dismissal with the assertion that in science "one does not need a reason not to believe in something." Skepticism is "the default position" and "one requires proof if one is to be convinced of something's existence."

In other words, for horoscope fans, the burden of proof is entirely on them, the poor gullible gits; while for the multitudes who believe that, in one way or another, a divine intelligence guides the path of every leaping lepton, there is no demand for evidence, no skepticism to surmount, no need to worry. You, the religious believer, may well find subtle support for your faith in recent discoveries—that is, if you're willing to upgrade your metaphors and definitions as the latest data demand, seek out new niches of ignorance or ambiguity to fill with the goose down of faith, and accept that, certain passages of the Old Testament notwithstanding, the world is very old, not everything in nature was made in a week, and (can you turn up the mike here, please?) Evolution Happens.

And if you don't find substantiation for your preferred divinity or your most cherished rendering of the afterlife somewhere in the sprawling emporium of science, that's fine, too. No need to lose faith when you were looking in the wrong place to begin with. Science can't tell you whether God exists or where you go when you die. Science cannot definitively rule out the heaven option, with its helium balloons and Breck hair for all. Science in no way wants to be associated with terrifying thoughts, like the possibility that the pericentury of consciousness granted you by the convoluted, gelatinous, and transient organ in your skull just may be the whole story of you-dom. Science isn't arrogant. Science trades in the observable universe and testable hypotheses. Religion gets the midnight panic fêtes. But you've heard about evolution, right?

So why is it that most scientists avoid criticizing religion even as they decry the supernatural mind-set? For starters, some researchers are themselves traditionally devout, keeping a kosher kitchen or taking Communion each Sunday. I admit I'm surprised whenever I encounter a religious scientist. How can a bench-hazed Ph. D., who might in an afternoon deftly purée a colleague's PowerPoint presentation on the nematode genome into so much fish chow, then go home, read in a two-thousand-year-old chronicle, riddled with internal contradictions, of a meta-Nobel discovery like "Resurrection from the Dead," and say, gee, that sounds convincing? Doesn't the good doctor wonder what the control group looked like?

Scientists, however, are a far less religious lot than the American population, and, the higher you go on the cerebro-magisterium, the greater the proportion of atheists, agnostics, and assorted other paganites. According to a 1998 survey published in Nature, only 7 percent of members of the prestigious National Academy of Sciences professed a belief in a "personal God." (Interestingly, a slightly higher number, 7.9 percent, claimed to believe in "personal immortality," which may say as much about the robustness of the scientific ego as about anything else.) In other words, more than 90 percent of our elite scientists are unlikely to pray for divine favoritism, no matter how badly they want to beat a competitor to publication. Yet only a flaskful of the faithless have put their nonbelief on record or publicly criticized religion, the notable and voluble exceptions being Richard Dawkins of Oxford University and

Daniel Dennett of Tufts University. Nor have Dawkins and Dennett earned much good will among their colleagues for their anticlerical views; one astronomer I spoke with said of Dawkins, "He's a really fine parish preacher of the fire-and-brimstone school, isn't he?"

So, what keeps most scientists quiet about religion? It's probably something close to that trusty old limbic reflex called "an instinct for self-preservation." For centuries, science has survived quite nicely by cultivating an image of reserve and objectivity, of being above religion, politics, business, table manners. Scientists want to be left alone to do their work, dazzle their peers, and hire grad students to wash the glassware. When it comes to extramural combat, scientists choose their crusades cautiously. Going after Uri Geller or the Ra'lians is risk-free entertainment, easier than making fun of the sociology department. Battling the creationist camp has been a much harder and nastier fight, but those scientists who have taken it on feel they have a direct stake in the debate and are entitled to wage it, since the creationists, and more recently the promoters of "intelligent design" theory, claim to be as scientific in their methodology as are the scientists.

But when a teenager named Darrell Lambert was chucked out of the Boy Scouts for being an atheist, scientists suddenly remembered all those gels they had to run and dark matter they had to chase, and they kept quiet. Lambert had explained the reason why, despite a childhood spent in Bible classes and church youth groups, he had become an atheist. He took biology in ninth grade, and, rather than devoting himself to studying the bra outline of the girl sitting in front of him, he actually learned some biology. And what he learned in biology persuaded him that the Bible was full of . . . short stories. Some good, some inspiring, some even racy, but fiction nonetheless. For his incisive, reasoned, scientific look at life, and for refusing to cook the data and simply lie to the Boy Scouts about his thoughts on God—as some advised him to do—Darrell Lambert should have earned a standing ovation from the entire scientific community. Instead, he had to settle for an interview with Connie Chung, right after a report on the Gambino family.

Scientists have ample cause to feel they must avoid being viewed as irreligious, a prionic life-form bent on destroying the most sacred heifer in America. After all, academic researchers graze on taxpayer pastures. If they pay the slightest attention to the news, they've surely noticed the escalating readiness of conservative politicians and an array of highly motivated religious organizations to interfere with the nation's scientific enterprise—altering the consumer information Web site at the National Cancer Institute to make abortion look like a cause of breast cancer, which it is not, or stuffing scientific advisory panels with anti-abortion "faith healers."

Recently, an obscure little club called the Traditional Values Coalition began combing through descriptions of projects supported by the National Institutes of Health and complaining to sympathetic congressmen about those they deemed morally "rotten," most of them studies of sexual behavior and AIDS prevention. The congressmen in turn launched a series of hearings, calling in institute officials to inquire who in the Cotton-pickin' name of Mather cares about the perversions of Native American homosexuals, to which the researchers replied, um, the studies were approved by a panel of scientific experts, and, gee, the Native American community has been underserved and is having a real problem with AIDS these days. Thus far, the projects have escaped being nullified, but the raw display of pious dentition must surely give fright to even the most rakishly freethinking and comfortably tenured professor. It's one thing to monkey with descriptions of Darwinism in a high-school textbook. But to threaten to take away a peer-reviewed grant! That Dan Dennett; he is something of a pompous leafblower, isn't he?

Yet the result of wincing and capitulating is a fresh round of whacks. Now it's not enough for presidential aspirants to make passing reference to their "faith." Now a reporter from Newsweek sees it as his privilege, if not his duty, to demand of Howard Dean, "Do you see Jesus Christ as the son of God and believe in him as the route to salvation and eternal life?" In my personal fairy tale, Dean, who as a doctor fits somewhere in the phylum Scientificus, might have boomed, "Well, with his views on camels and rich people, he sure wouldn't vote Republican!" or maybe, "No, but I hear he has a Mel Gibson complex." Dr. Dean might have talked about patients of his who suffered strokes and lost the very fabric of themselves and how he has seen the centrality of the brain to the sense of being an individual. He might have expressed doubts that the self survives the brain, but, oh yes, life goes on, life is bigger, stronger, and better endowed than any Bush in a jumpsuit, and we are part of the wild, tumbling river of life, our molecules were the molecules of dinosaurs and before that of stars, and this is not Bulfinch mythology, this is corroborated reality.

Alas for my phantasm of fact, Howard Dean, M. D., had no choice but to chime, oh yes, he certainly sees Jesus as the son of God, though he at least dodged the eternal life clause with a humble mumble about his salvation not being up to him.

I may be an atheist, and I may be impressed that, through the stepwise rigor of science, its Spockian eyebrow of doubt always cocked, we have learned so much about the universe. Yet I recognize that, from there to here, and here to there, funny things are everywhere. Why is there so much dark matter and dark energy in the great Out There, and why couldn't cosmologists have given them different enough names so I could keep them straight? Why is there something rather than nothing, and why is so much of it on my desk? Not to mention the abiding mysteries of e-mail, like why I get exponentially more spam every day, nine-tenths of it invitations to enlarge an appendage I don't have.

I recognize that science doesn't have all the answers and doesn't pretend to, and that's one of the things I love about it. But it has a pretty good notion of what's probable or possible, and virgin births and carpenter rebirths just aren't on the list. Is there a divine intelligence, separate from the universe but somehow in charge of the universe, either in its inception or in twiddling its parameters? No evidence. Is the universe itself God? Is the universe aware of itself? We're here. We're aware. Does that make us God? Will my daughter have to attend a Quaker Friends school now?

I don't believe in life after death, but I'd like to believe in life before death. I'd like to think that one of these days we'll leave superstition and delusional thinking and Jerry Falwell behind. Scientists would like that, too. But for now, they like their grants even more.

Natalie Angier is a science reporter for the New York Times and author of Woman: An Intimate Geography, Natural Obsessions, and The Beauty of the Beastly. In 1991 she won a Pulitzer Prize for her science reporting.

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1. Comment #7079 by Haymoon on November 17, 2006 at 4:11 am

Good for you Natalie!

And some call Dawkins disdainful and poisonous http://richarddawkins.net/article,310,n,n ......

I prefer trenchant myself.

2. Comment #7080 by Basil on November 17, 2006 at 4:13 am

A wonderful article that I hope makes it to the inbox of every American scientist.
Scientists hold a lot of cards and should realise that society at large has a lot to thank them for. Wouldn't it be nice to see them show some steel and stand up for what they do?

3. Comment #7084 by Skeptic Jim on November 17, 2006 at 4:49 am

yep. here here.

4. Comment #7086 by Yorker on November 17, 2006 at 4:57 am

That article by Natalie was certainly one of the better ones posted here. It's certainly true that American atheists have to either deny their true thoughts or dodge the God issue like Gould did with NOMA, personally I think HOMA (hugely), would be more accurate.

I spent ten years living in the USA working on computer software. At least 85% of my colleagues were atheists but would only admit it to me privately or in small groups where thoughts were shared. In 'mixed' company, most would never raise the question of religion and would avoid direct references to it. There's no doubt in my mind that the number of American atheists is far greater than surveys suggest. There are many very intelligent people in the USA but it's also true that there are hordes of uneducated also, the stronghold of religion lies mostly within the latter group.

I completely understand why atheists in the USA have to be careful; religion acts like a kind of Gestapo and behaves in a similar manner, admitting atheism can cost you your job. I had to give a 2-day technical seminar once at a company in Southern Indiana, casual small talk over lunch revealed the owner to be an evangelical Christian who had also financed the building of a new church that stood in the lot next to the company offices. Employees told me that if you wanted to work there, you'd better be a worshipper and show up at church on Sunday. When I told them I was an atheist their attitude changed, next day I never got invited to lunch, I guess nobody wanted to be seen associating with a heretic. I was glad to return to Florida, lots of Jewish people, but much more fun, far more tolerant and noticeably more intelligent. Indeed, one of the friends I made in the USA was Jewish who loved to tell anti-Jewish jokes; I'll end with this one from him.

Q. What are the two thinnest books in the world?

A. The Italian book of war heroes and the Jewish book of business ethics!

5. Comment #7095 by Randy Ping on November 17, 2006 at 6:12 am

*Claps, Whistles, Woots*
THANK YOU!

6. Comment #7102 by Anonymous on November 17, 2006 at 7:07 am

That's the best article on this website

7. Comment #7113 by Anat on November 17, 2006 at 8:07 am

This article demonstrates more than anything Richard Dawkins' thesis about the danger of the undeserved respect for religion in society. You let them get away with virgin birth and you end up dealing with faith-based policies.

8. Comment #7114 by Roger Stanyard on November 17, 2006 at 8:13 am

Another seriously thin book:

The creationist book of irony.

Roger Stanyard, British Centre for Science Education

9. Comment #7118 by fun2bfree on November 17, 2006 at 8:28 am

I have often wondered why the anti-evolution crowds has not gone after the publicly funded evolution displays at the Smithsonian and other publicly funded museums....I wish they would--the sniping from the shadows that these lunatics do is worse than open battle on the public stage...

10. Comment #7120 by Roger Stanyard on November 17, 2006 at 8:43 am

More exceedingly thin books:

The scientific theory of creationism

The scientific theory of Intelligent Design

Legal cases won by creationists

Kent Hovind's collected tax returns

11. Comment #7123 by Nebularry on November 17, 2006 at 9:00 am

This is just the most FANTASTIC article!! The sarcasm is not lost. Printed, highlighted and preserved for future use.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, NATALIE! Keep up the good work.

12. Comment #7124 by Yorker on November 17, 2006 at 9:07 am

Roger,

I didn't mean to start a thin-book craze here but these are pretty funny :)

Here's one I just thought of:

"The Ted Haggard Guide to Christian Living"

13. Comment #7134 by Roger Stanyard on November 17, 2006 at 9:30 am

More thin books:

Pastor Ted's Guide to Sincerity

Bill Dembski's Good Career Guide

Leading Intellectuals at the Bob Jones University

(One of a series including Liberty University, Patrick Henry College and Regent University. The combined edition is the same length.)

14. Comment #7139 by Anonymous on November 17, 2006 at 10:14 am

"See the pounds come off (in more ways than one) with pastor teds crash course meth diet"

Is there such a thing as a fat thin book?

15. Comment #7140 by Jiten on November 17, 2006 at 10:15 am

More thin books : Micheal Behe's "What Evolution Has Taught Me"

16. Comment #7142 by Jiten on November 17, 2006 at 10:18 am

Another: Ted Haggard "On Humility"

17. Comment #7145 by Andrew Brown on November 17, 2006 at 10:43 am

Other books could include

Ken Ham's guide to Paleontology

George Bush's discussion paper on the merits of Stem Cell research. (A sequel to his magnum opus "Climate change?")

Becky Fisher's guide to bringing up healthy balanced children.

And one for the Kiwis
Brian Tamaki's guide to fiscal responsibility (subtitled "Cruise through life on other people's money)

18. Comment #7148 by ThePacifier on November 17, 2006 at 11:03 am

Another:

Jokes and witty repartee by the atheist

19. Comment #7151 by Anonymous on November 17, 2006 at 11:29 am

It might be a thin book but there's 6,000 volumes (creationists don't have a monopoly on jokes involving 6000).

20. Comment #7156 by ThePacifier on November 17, 2006 at 11:56 am

Comment #7155 by Anonymous on November 17, 2006 at 11:50 am




Ahem...... Ummm, case closed!

21. Comment #7157 by Robin on November 17, 2006 at 12:04 pm

Natalie Angier, if you read this forum - Thank you for an excellent, witty, and thought provoking article. You made my day!

22. Comment #7159 by Jared on November 17, 2006 at 12:08 pm

Very funny article...a couple of Douglas Adamsesque lines in there. Far funnier than I anything I could write.

Speaking of...

More thin books:

Skeptical Catholic Saints
The Real Science of Scientology
The Atheist Prayerbook and Hymnal

23. Comment #7162 by Russ on November 17, 2006 at 12:28 pm

Post 14. Comment #7119 by Joad is great stuff. Great insight, Joad. I've always construed the creationist approach in that way but your clear expression of the idea works much better than my ineffective fumblings.

Thank you.

24. Comment #7164 by Yorker on November 17, 2006 at 12:37 pm

I started the thin-book nonsense so please let me finish it.

Next week, John Ashcroft will be distributing a very thin book to members of congress, it's called:

"Atheism for Dummies"

25. Comment #7165 by Anonymous on November 17, 2006 at 12:39 pm

Why can't we name the Theory of Evolution differently, may be as the "Law of Evolution"?

26. Comment #7166 by ThePacifier on November 17, 2006 at 12:46 pm

Thanks for asking kennesawGA.

You see; pericentury (I'm assuming here) comes from the word used in astronomy "pericentric" having something to do with the closest point of an orbiting body. Or, something with a chromosome. Either way…… it's one of those "I think I'm smart" words. So transparent……. GWAD help us all……… If it ain't the religious freaks that are gonna distroy humanity…… it's the douche bag pseudo intellectuals.




Sips latte


(Mumbles talking points) God Bad – Science Good



sip


sippy

27. Comment #7168 by Anonymous on November 17, 2006 at 12:51 pm

Comment #7156 by ThePacifier on November 17, 2006 at 11:56 am

It was a metaphor (or parable if you will) about religious child abuse - you're not supposed to take it literally (or so the "enlightened" christians keep saying). I suggest you go to the doctors and get your irony detector fixed

Maybe you should have called your book

"Jokes and witty repartee by the atheist that the pacifier understands"

that would be a very thin book

28. Comment #7171 by ThePacifier on November 17, 2006 at 12:59 pm

Comment #7168 by Anonymous on November 17, 2006 at 12:51 pm

Yeah I "got" it........ It was a "metaphor"... Indeed....


Just wasn't funny....






Or witty






sips latte

29. Comment #7172 by Kingasaurus on November 17, 2006 at 1:07 pm

Peri = "around"

Around a century is the maximum human lifespan. Therefore you have a pericentury of consciousness alloted to you.

Was that really confusing, or am I missing the irony?

30. Comment #7176 by Jared on November 17, 2006 at 1:39 pm

Hmm. ThePacifier. Quite an ironic name for a troll. My sides are splitting. No, really. They are.

/Done feeding the troll.

31. Comment #7179 by Anonymous on November 17, 2006 at 1:57 pm

43

I'm by no means a scientist, nor a debater. The reason I asked is that so many times I hear "yea, it's "only" a theory (evolution).

32. Comment #7186 by Stever on November 17, 2006 at 2:50 pm

Some famous Belgian scientists

Edward de Smedt, chemist and inventor of modern-day road asphalt
Gerardus Mercator, Flemish cartographer, mathematician and geographer
Abraham Ortelius, Flemish geographer who produced the first modern atlas
Andreas Vesalius, famous anatomist and physician
Adrien de Gerlache, commander of the first scientific Antarctic expedition
Jules Bordet, bacteriologist who developed vaccine for whooping cough
Jan Baptista van Helmont, physician / chemist who showed that plants feed mostly on water, not soil
Georges Lemaître, astronomer who discovered the Big Bang theory
Lambert Adolphe Quetelet, mathematician and inventor of the Body Mass Index
Albert Claude, biochemist who was the first to isolate a cancer cell
Georges Cuisenaire, Belgian teacher famous for his method of teaching mathematics
Ilya Prigogine, chemical physicist famous for his theoretical framework on the origin of life
Simon Stevin, mathematician and engineer
Corneille Heymans, winner of the 1938 Nobel Prize for Physiology
Christian De Duve, winner of the 1974 Nobel Prize for Physiology and discoverer of lysosomes and peixosomes
Charles Delstanche, pioneer in otology
Louis Zimmer, world-famous clockmaker


Check out http://www.famousbelgians.net for another 200 famous belgians from different walks of life.

33. Comment #7187 by Anonymous on November 17, 2006 at 3:00 pm

47

So atheists generally don't really understand science, but have blind faith in it? Sounds kind of familiar. Christians think their religion is the truth, Muslims think theirs is, same with Jews. But of course the Atheists know theirs is the true religion.

34. Comment #7189 by Jared on November 17, 2006 at 3:14 pm

re #51 (comment #7187)

As much as I'd really like to address all of your extremely original points, Anonymous, I've just come to the point where I'd rather not regurgitate the same rebuttals that get brought up in every single other thread on this site whenever someone thinks they've cracked the atheist case.

Honestly, please go read any of the other threads (or maybe a book) and learn a little bit about atheism and science before you slander them both.

35. Comment #7199 by Aussie on November 17, 2006 at 3:53 pm

A trivial semantic point:

Strictly speaking "peri" means "near" not "around". eg Perigee vs Apogee

Therefore "pericentury" is "near century".

One then wonders what "apocentury" might mean. Perhaps eternal life?

36. Comment #7201 by goddogit on November 17, 2006 at 3:59 pm

Did someone mention "Born-again Christian Ethics"?

37. Comment #7204 by Aussie on November 17, 2006 at 4:18 pm

As a former research scientist of 30 years, much of which was spent chasing research grants, this brilliant article really hit home to me. Just as the democratic process corrupts polititians, so the research grants process tends to corrupt scientists.

"Honest politian" has always been an oxymoron.

"Objective scientist" is sadly becoming one also.

Most people accept that for a politian to survive in his particular ecosystem he must necessarily compromise any higher principles. Unfortunately the selection pressures on scientists mean that the objective scientist may soon become extinct.

Simple Darwinian selection.

38. Comment #7214 by Steve on November 17, 2006 at 5:42 pm

Haha! I like these world's thinnest book jokes.

To combat the disproportionate amount of jokes that unfairly target ethnic minorities, I'll make a pitiful effort to mock my own origins:

The Benefactors - A history of compassionate European Colonialism

Evidence for belief: Political Correctness in Mainstream Australia

Greek table manners and conversation etiquette

More on topic, Jared, I think you'er being overly optimistic if you expect him to make the effort to read any additional literature. I'll try to make it easier for him (that's Anonymous - Comment #7187):

1) Atheism isn't a religion, it is the rejection of religious beliefs, not necessarily in favour of other beliefs. There are some 'religions' which are atheistic, such as Buddhism and Scientology (I think.) However, atheists don't necessarily belong to any of these belief systems.

2) Most atheists don't claim to know they are right. They simply think that it is MORE LIKELY that there is no god than that there is. Atheists can believe in fairies, ghosts, aliens or whatever. Their beliefs are too broad to be considered a religion - you can contrast atheism with theism, but not any particular religious beliefs such as christianity. Considering atheism a religion would be like (but much less accurate than) considering muslims, jews, satanists and christians to be part of one religion.

39. Comment #7216 by Basil on November 17, 2006 at 5:45 pm

Hear come the Belgians!



40. Comment #7225 by Jared on November 17, 2006 at 7:05 pm

Re: Steve, #51 (comment #7214)

Optimistic? I suppose. I thought it was dismissive and in ill temper. But I like yours...sounds more pleasant :)

41. Comment #7231 by Steve M on November 17, 2006 at 7:57 pm

I know it's a total non-sequiter but I found something good to say about Muslims: they would have executed OJ long ago.

42. Comment #7252 by Louis Perry on November 17, 2006 at 10:49 pm

Bravo to Natalie Angier!

And, bravo to all of Roger Stanyard's comments!

43. Comment #7270 by maryhelena on November 18, 2006 at 2:29 am

Yann Obergfell wrote:

"I think that the religion problem entails an other problem that is very often overlooked: religion is a threat to the good practice of democracy."

I don't agree with the idea that religion is a threat to anything. Religion, as I pointed out in another post on this site, comment #1730, is not synonymous with theology. Theology becomes a problem, becomes evil, when it endeavors to become a code of social/political interaction.

So, yes indeed, any debate about theology that fails to take into account it's political role in society will leave itself shortchanged. I'm not just talking about that rogue elephant out there (fundamentalist theology) but, about theology in general (and here I agree with Dawkins but for a different reason). Dawkins comes down on 'religious moderates' because of their failure to route out the fundamentalists. I come down on theology, particularly christian theology, when it seeks to integrate itself into political ideology. The basic problem is not that christian theology is a threat to democracy - the basic problem is that the premises of christian theology have become the premises of political democracy. So much so that for all intents and purposes, in the social/political environment, christian theology *is* political democracy. It is simply christian theology wearing fancy dress, wearing it's coat of many colors.

Political democracy cannot exist as an ideology without christian theology. It's fundamental premise of equality (a premise that seeks to challenge reality) can only be made sustainable by a policy of sacrifice. Sacrifice, it goes without saying, is primarily a theological idea, particularly a christian idea. Sacrifice, as the face of supreme moral value is primarily a Christian phenomenon.

A theology that glorifies human, physical, sacrifice, is a theology that requires the sacrifice of man's intellectual credibility; it is intellectual abdication. The danger in such a theology is that it allows the equality premise a façade of respectability - it is a theology that gives the passive equality idea of Eastern mysticism a militant, political, christian triumphalism.

("Christianity has further elevated the equality doctrine by incorporating it into its concept of a triune equalitarian supreme god.")

So - if fundamentalism is to be neutered , if the potential within theology for evil is to be negated, it is to political democracy that an attack must be directed. As a premise of economic reality, democracy has much to offer - as a premise of political reality it suffers from an inherent flaw - a theological flaw. A flaw that will, sooner or later, expose political democracy as an 'emperor without any 'moral' clothes'.

It's ironic really - so much debate over the dangers of muslim theocracies - and nothing at all about theology's greatest achievement, it's masquerade as political democracy. It makes me think about a scenario faced throughout history - the reputation of a conquering army that psychologically disarmed the local population - victory achieved without opposition. No wonder that Orwell could see no way out of '1984'.

44. Comment #7294 by Jared on November 18, 2006 at 5:59 am

Re: #64 maryhelena (comment #7270)

"Political democracy cannot exist as an ideology without christian theology."

I very much fail to see how this is the case, considering that the ideas of democracy were invented in Greece when people still thought about Zeus and Apollo.

"It's fundamental premise of equality (a premise that seeks to challenge reality) can only be made sustainable by a policy of sacrifice."

There seems to be a bit of an assumption here. I think trying to MAKE everyone equal is a bit of a Communist idea, not democratic. That is unnatural. The democratic idea is that everyone has a voice and a vote, not that everyone is equal. Everyone is protected equally under the law (in theory), but there is no forced equality and I see why no one needs to sacrifice anything for either principle at any rate.

"Sacrifice, it goes without saying, is primarily a theological idea, particularly a christian idea."

That certainly does NOT go without saying! I don't believe that sacrifice, even were it relevant to democracy, needs to have anything to do with theology OR Christianity. Amongst nearly ALL animals, parents sacrifice an amount of nourishment in order to raise their children. They sacrifice an amount of safety in order to go out and hunt, and more energy to do so beyound their own means to hunt for the family group. Elephants sacrifice their safety by positioning themselves on the outside to protect the young, weak, or elderly elephants from attack.

I think it would be folly to assume that altruism, which is what you're really talking about, and sacrifice need to be considered the same thing. Just as I think it's folly to say that they need to be christian/theological in their nature. Science may not entirely agree on the nature of altruism, but there are plenty of likely ideas out there and none of them are religious.

Lets even assume the "ultimate" sacrifice: Death. Honeybees die after stinging, which they do to protect their hive and the young therein. Are honeybees Christian? Seems a bit silly to me.

"Sacrifice, as the face of supreme moral value is primarily a Christian phenomenon."

Again, I fail to see how this is relevant to democracy. I don't think a single politician would say "Sacrifice is the supreme moral value." The "fact" that Jesus sacrificed himself is at the root of Christianity, yes. But as we've already shown, sacrifice is involved in a number of other areas as well and none of those necessarily has to do with democracy, equality, or theology.

Cheers!

45. Comment #7349 by maryhelena on November 18, 2006 at 9:41 am

Hi, Jared

comment #66

"Political democracy cannot exist as an ideology without christian theology."

"I very much fail to see how this is the case, considering that the ideas of democracy were invented in Greece when people still thought about Zeus and Apollo."

The point here is that Greek democracy was not equalitarian. Modern-day political democracy is equalitarian. And for that shift to have occurred it required a theological input. Democracy's 'resurrection' was enabled by christian theology, albeit indirectly. (the concept of democracy seems a bit like the concept of 'god' - open to interpretation…..)

(from Wikipedia: In theory, all the Athenian citizens were eligible to speak and vote in the Assembly, which set the laws of the city-state, but neither political rights, nor citizenship, were granted to women, slaves, or metics. Of the 250,000 inhabitants only some 30,000 on average were citizens).

"It's fundamental premise of equality (a premise that seeks to challenge reality) can only be made sustainable by a policy of sacrifice."

"There seems to be a bit of an assumption here. I think trying to MAKE everyone equal is a bit of a Communist idea, not democratic. That is unnatural. The democratic idea is that everyone has a voice and a vote, not that everyone is equal."

Having a 'voice' is our inherent right. Having a vote within a democratic system is an acquired right, not a natural, an inherent right. One-man-one-vote might well sound fine in theory - in practice it can produce political problems. For instance, it could produce a political theocracy. Once numbers become the basis for a political system then, logically, morality has been relegated to the sidelines. No, we cannot make people equal - but political democracy strives to create the illusion of political equality - and it is that illusion that ties political democracy to theology. On the other hand of course, government by numbers is a sad reflection on the childlike state of political ideology. There is no morality in government by numbers - as there is no artistry in painting by numbers

"Sacrifice, it goes without saying, is primarily a theological idea, particularly a christian idea."

"That certainly does NOT go without saying! I don't believe that sacrifice, even were it relevant to democracy, needs to have anything to do with theology OR Christianity. Amongst nearly ALL animals, parents sacrifice an amount of nourishment in order to raise their children. They sacrifice an amount of safety in order to go out and hunt, and more energy to do so beyound their own means to hunt for the family group. Elephants sacrifice their safety by positioning themselves on the outside to protect the young, weak, or elderly elephants from attack. "

The paragraph to which you refer does go on to say. "Sacrifice, as the face of supreme moral value is primarily a Christian phenomenon.". It is in this connection that the sacrifice quote you refer to relates. Sacrifice as a moral virtue, as a supreme moral virtue, is a concept that is primarily a christian concept. The man on a cross, if nothing else, is a symbol of the supreme value christianity places upon sacrifice. This is not simply altruism as a purely natural phenomena of caring about others. It is instead a case of theology going one step further - and endeavoring, by granting it a theological sanction, to turn altruism into the primary focus of social morality, the ultimate moral code. Rather than allow space for the selfish gene - the theological code of altruism/sacrifice seeks to impose it's own superiority. It's not simply a case of rebelling against the 'tyranny' of the selfish gene - it's a case of rebelling against the selfish gene. It's a case of denying reality, denying the reality the selfish gene has played in human evolution. Of course it's not an either or situation - but for theology as a social/political code - it is. It cannot give any quarter to reality.

Indeed, nothing wrong with altruism - but altruism as a theologically sanctioned code of social interaction - that altruism is potentially, politically, problematic. Basically, it's problematic because sacrifice requires a beneficiary. When retained as a purely theological idea - the rewards of sacrifice are either achieving brownie points with 'god' or life in the hereafter. When theological sacrifice functions as a code of social/political morality, as it does in political democracy's striving for equalitarianism, then it creates an environment of looters and losers. An environment where the altruistic/sacrificial 'buck' is passed back and forth, until, hopefully, someone will capitulate to the waiting human vultures. In other words, what can function within a purely intellectual/theological framework, cannot function in a social/political context without experiencing abnormalities, dysfunction. The equalitarian illusion of political democracy cannot be sustained without constant political sacrifice.

"Sacrifice, as the face of supreme moral value is primarily a Christian phenomenon."

"Again, I fail to see how this is relevant to democracy. I don't think a single politician would say "Sacrifice is the supreme moral value." The "fact" that Jesus sacrificed himself is at the root of Christianity, yes. But as we've already shown, sacrifice is involved in a number of other areas as well and none of those necessarily has to do with democracy, equality, or theology"

Political democracy cannot function without creating an illusion of equality. It is helped in this connection with it's one-man-one-vote - which, to put it mildly, is the most effective political and intellectual straightjacket the world has ever known! The 'divine right' of kings or the military might of a tin pot dictator cannot be compared to the awesome power of a governmental system that is 'freely' chosen. One-man-one-vote is the abracadabra, the magic wand, that upholds the democratic political illusion of equality. On their own, one-man-one-vote and illusions of equality, don't have the inherent potential for longevity. Add a dash of theology, in the form of christian self-sacrifice, and there is a very powerful mix created.

As to politicians and sacrifice - maybe they feel shy about using the term - but they sure have another one that does the same job - redistribution. The Robin Hood approach to social wellbeing…;-)

Philosophy and theology have a long history. It should surely not be a surprise to realize just how far theology has infiltrated political philosophy. Secular intellectuals have been unable to escape the very long arm of theology..-..resulting in the bizarre situation that to question political philosophy is to have to deal with questions of theology!

Jared, thanks for the response. Perhaps all this is a bit off topic - it's just that I don't see any other way, besides a political attack, that will remove the problem of fundamentalist theology from the social/political environment. Knocking theology, on it's own, seems, to me, to be a bit like sidetracking from the main problem - which I do maintain is a political as opposed to a purely theological problem.

46. Comment #7365 by Jared on November 18, 2006 at 11:35 am

Maryhelena,

Thanks for taking the time to answer my criticisms. I still do not see any reason why democracy and sacrifice have to be tied to one another, nor why either must needs immediately be tied to theology and Christian theology. I can see specific cases where this has occurred, but no reason to assume it is the general rule.

"One person, one vote" may not always turn out fair, and there are no doubt many troubling aspects to that issue. But I honestly don't think that the troubles of democracy necessarily are religious in nature. I'm as non-religious as anyone you're going to meet, so it's not as if I frequently enjoy defending it. I just think that, in this case, your hybrid of theology/democracy casts too wide of an umbrella and is unrealistic and somewhat unfair to BOTH religion and democracy.

I think that using "redistribution" as a term against democracy is also a bit of a mischaracterization. Redistrubition of wealth is very much a socialist/communist idea. American democracy does not invoke the term terribly frequently. I think you are blurring the lines between particular forms of "social democracy" and pure democracy. I am not implying that the US has anything LIKE pure democracy, but it certainly seems closer to that than to some sort of enforced ACTUAL equality.

Indeed, equalitarian concerns, nor the idea of a sacrifice and a beneficiary, do not need any sort of theology. Sometimes the feeling that it is better to help society as a whole than to help the self is just as natural as anything else.

You mischaracterize the concept of the selfish gene quite badly, as it really has nothing to do with the concept of equality in society. It doesn't necessarily mean the individuals containing genes have to be selfish, nor that it is "rebellion" to promote equal treatment of others by the law. The selfish gene merely deals with the idea that genes "want" to replicate themselves, and do so by building survival machines which help them ensure their own survival. This has nothing to do with human selfishness, at all. You quoted Wikipedia about democracy, but did you check the Selfish Gene entry?

"In particular, phenomena such as kin selection and eusociality, where organisms act altruistically, against their individual interests (in the sense of health, safety or personal reproduction) to help related organisms reproduce, can be explained as genes helping copies of themselves in other bodies to replicate. Interestingly, the "selfish" actions of genes lead to unselfish actions by organisms"

You draw parallels to art, you mention Robin Hood, you dance all around. I just fail to see ANY proof on your part that democracy HAS to have Christian theology as its base. The regrettable fact that theology has infiltrated most current democracies aside, there is NOTHING about democracy itself that would prevent a secular democracy from arising.

This is the last response I will make, however, as all of this has little to do with the article above, which is supposed to be the topic of the thread. I tend to dislike threadjacking, myself, so this will be my last instance of it here.

Cheers.

47. Comment #7614 by John Phillips on November 18, 2006 at 10:17 pm

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

As apposite today as then, simply substitute or add aethist or scientist anywhere in the above quote.

48. Comment #7667 by Brian on November 19, 2006 at 2:22 am

It's not a book but would be the thinnest of all if it were: The God FAQ

http://www.400monkeys.com/God/

49. Comment #7688 by Roger Stanyard on November 19, 2006 at 3:56 am

More thin books:

The Good Universities Guide, Bob Jones University

The Good Universities Guide, Liberty University

Th Good Universities Guide, Regent University

The Good Universities Guide, Patrick Henry College

Combined edition of the above

50. Comment #8000 by Raskolnikov on November 20, 2006 at 5:39 am

I would like to add to the list of famous belgian scientists:

Jean Bricmont, physicist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Bricmont
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Bricmont
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