Monday, October 20, 2008 | Science : In the News | print version

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Beyond Belief 3: Candles in the Dark

The Science Network, Sam Harris, AC Grayling, Roger Bingham

Thanks to Richard Prins for the link.

Click here to watch the videos:
http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/beyond-belief-candles-in-the-dark
poster

Beyond Belief: Candles in the Dark is the third in an annual series of conversations: an ongoing project to foster and promote the use of reason in formulating social policy. This year, we asked participants to propose a Candle -- a potential solution to a problem that they have identified in their area of expertise or informed passion.

In The Demon-Haunted World, Carl Sagan wrote:
Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

At The Science Network, we embrace scientific meliorism (last year's meeting, after all, was entitled Enlightenment 2.0). We support science in its search for solutions. Can we better understand the neural underpinnings of human nature, our decision-making processes, the dynamics of trust and fear and human flourishing?

This U.S. election year, when science and reason in the nation's deliberations have been repeatedly challenged as irrelevant or elitist, and science seems to be estranged from society, Sagan's words sound prophetic -- an alarm call. Beyond Belief: Candles in the Dark is our response.

Posted: Monday, October 20, 2008 | Permalink

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1. Comment #267189 by JFHalsey on October 20, 2008 at 10:26 am

Holy crap, when did Carl Sagan write "The Demon-Haunted World"? Seems rather prophetic, to me, if you'll excuse the religious metaphor.

Other Comments by JFHalsey

2. Comment #267201 by mdowe on October 20, 2008 at 10:38 am

Re: 1. Comment #267189 by JFHalsey

I was thinking the same thing ....

Other Comments by mdowe

3. Comment #267206 by GBile on October 20, 2008 at 10:43 am

In my copy of Sagans 'The demon-haunted world' it says: Copyright 1996.

Other Comments by GBile

4. Comment #267208 by overwhelmedas1wouldB on October 20, 2008 at 10:46 am

You two must be joking. It was published in '96 and is a classic that everyone should read.

Other Comments by overwhelmedas1wouldB

5. Comment #267220 by Matt H. on October 20, 2008 at 10:54 am

I thought 'The Demon Haunted World' was Sagan's most well known book. It's not widely avaliable in the UK, except in libraries, but I heard it's still a big seller over in the US.

As for this conference, any word on the talks from Sir Harry Kroto, Lawrence Krauss and Michael Shermer? I've seen Sam Harris', but I was looking forward to watching theirs too.

Other Comments by Matt H.

6. Comment #267237 by kryptoknightmare on October 20, 2008 at 11:06 am

I re-read The Demon-Haunted World over the summer, and I was astonished at how prophetic that section was. Sagan's "candle" was, of course, science itself- or perhaps more specifically, skeptical thinking through science education. Lets hope that the pendulum starts swinging towards that happy goal...

Other Comments by kryptoknightmare

7. Comment #267241 by HandyGeek on October 20, 2008 at 11:08 am

Another must read by Sagan: Pale Blue Dot. It's been many years, but I recall having as much of a spiritual experience reading it as I ever had as a X'tian. In fact, I'll have to break that out for another read if I can find it.

Other Comments by HandyGeek

8. Comment #267251 by skip on October 20, 2008 at 11:20 am

The Science Network player does not work well at all, I may not make it through these videos this year, at least not like last year...

Other Comments by skip

9. Comment #267266 by mbobo on October 20, 2008 at 11:37 am

We miss you Dr. Sagan...

Other Comments by mbobo

10. Comment #267271 by apaeter on October 20, 2008 at 11:45 am

Is there any chance to get this videos mirrored somewhere or posted on GoogleVideo? The bandwidth on the sciencenetwork doesn't seem to be up to it. Some talks don't load all the way, etc... very frustrating. :) can someone help?

Other Comments by apaeter

11. Comment #267336 by mintcheerios on October 20, 2008 at 12:56 pm

The site isn't loading for me. It must be getting hammered.

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12. Comment #267346 by kev_s on October 20, 2008 at 1:15 pm

I bought Demon Haunted World as a christening present for my god son. He's still not quite old enough to appreciate it but I hope will one day.
(It was not a very religious service and I had my fingers crossed behind my back the whole time.)

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13. Comment #267357 by JemyM on October 20, 2008 at 1:28 pm

omg omg omg omg
*jumping up and down like a teenage girl*

I didn't even know that BB3 had been... Now I know what to do the rest of the week.

Other Comments by JemyM

14. Comment #267365 by qomak on October 20, 2008 at 1:36 pm

Very nice videos.

As always, I really enjoy listening to Ramachandran.

Other Comments by qomak

15. Comment #267373 by NewEnglandBob on October 20, 2008 at 1:45 pm

I watched the first two videos and then they were 'temporarily' pulled 'due to high traffic'

Edit:
Talk about inflation...The first two years' DVDs are $40 each and the third year is $70.

Other Comments by NewEnglandBob

16. Comment #267386 by Scandinavian07 on October 20, 2008 at 1:56 pm

Made the Sam Harris speech into a mp3 for my jog.

Nothing puts up a good sweat like God bashing and wearing a magenta colored tracksuite from the 80's.

Anyways, uploaded it to rapidshare (not the best one, but ok) if anyone else wants it. Will do the same with Ramachandran if any1 is interested.

http://rapidshare.com/files/155938040/Sam_Harris-BeyondBelief2008.mp3

Scandianvian07

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17. Comment #267387 by geru on October 20, 2008 at 1:56 pm

Not enough bandwidth? C'mon, youtube 'em! Gimme gimme gimme! :)

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18. Comment #267389 by KRKBAB on October 20, 2008 at 1:58 pm

I can't believe how many people are unfamiliar with C. Sagan! Maybe he is/was more of an American phenomenon?
I think he's by far the most quotable of all of the populizers of science.
"Science isn't perfect, but it's the best we have."
"Who needs the supernatural, the natural is super enough!"-
dumbed down, oversimplified pure brilliant remarks
If people with limited intelligence like myself get all fired up when they read C.Sagan, then he was truely a GODSEND. (yes, pun intended)

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19. Comment #267392 by rod-the-farmer on October 20, 2008 at 2:03 pm

Perhaps Josh et al could provide advance notice to the owners of such sites that RD will be posting a link to it. This may allow them to ramp up whatever the limitation might be, OR, to post a copy on YouTube. We are all in this together.

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

20. Comment #267407 by Yadsmood on October 20, 2008 at 2:20 pm

Does Richard Dawkins intend to participate in the next Beyond Belief conference, if there is one? I hope he does. His insight and clarity of thinking could greatly contribute to the discussion -- even if it's centred around moral philosophy, as opposed to religion.

Other Comments by Yadsmood

21. Comment #267408 by Simonw on October 20, 2008 at 2:20 pm

I've just finished Demon Haunted World. I think my partner "tidied it up" (aka moved from bedside table to bookcase) when I was last reading it.

Have to say Sagan lacks a little in the critical thinking skills, but he writes well, and clearly has his head mostly screwed on.

The most important take home is I think that civilisations have had long periods of no progress, interspersed with comparatively short periods of enlightened thinking, and we shouldn't rely on the current relatively sane period (in the west) to continue, we have to make it continue by dint of effort. Otherwise they'll go back to spending all their money on Cathedrals, and the clergy, and we'll be in Ben Elton's Blind Faith.

Other Comments by Simonw

22. Comment #267410 by NewEnglandBob on October 20, 2008 at 2:24 pm

Comment #267389 by KRKBAB:

Unfortunately, Even though Sagan was enormously popular for "Cosmos" and other videos, they no longer get any air time in the US and therefore hardly anyone under 30 knows who he is.

"Pale Blue Dot" was a terrific book with wonderful pictures that few people know.

I remember when people walked around saying "billions and billions" sounding just like Sagan in pronunciation.

Other Comments by NewEnglandBob

23. Comment #267417 by Uhtred on October 20, 2008 at 2:30 pm

"Sagan lacks a little in critical thinking skills...??

You're joking, right Simonw?

Other Comments by Uhtred

24. Comment #267444 by LB on October 20, 2008 at 3:01 pm

thanks for the mp3 Scandinavian07

Other Comments by LB

25. Comment #267509 by RationalistHomeTchr on October 20, 2008 at 3:58 pm

Carl Sagan was one of my heroes when I was in high school and college... There have been at least three times when Christian friends have asked me to read a book that will supposedly convince me to join their religion (and I've complied, by the way--I've read some *badly* argued books this way!); in each case, I've loaned them my copy of The Demon-Haunted World for them to read in exchange. Even those these were friends who said they really wanted to know where I'm coming from, and even though they agreed to read my book while I read theirs -- not on actually read more than a few pages!

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26. Comment #267530 by Dhamma on October 20, 2008 at 4:15 pm

RationalistHomeTchr:

It's pretty likely they only read a few pages of your book as well :)

Other Comments by Dhamma

27. Comment #267544 by Scandinavian07 on October 20, 2008 at 4:35 pm

Here's the Ramachandran speech in mp3.

Hope the videos are online again soon :(

http://rapidshare.com/files/155973377/Vilayanur_Ramachandran-BeyondBelief2008.mp3

scan07

Other Comments by Scandinavian07

28. Comment #267576 by Lucas on October 20, 2008 at 5:54 pm

overwhelmedas1wouldB... when placed in my position? what a heavy burden now to be the one? but i forgot my pen...

My only concern, friend, is that Maynard and crew might be a little too into the New Age crap that comes along with Alex Grey and his work, though I am a huge fan of both the music and paintings.

As for the Sagan quote, yipes, I got chills reading that. And as annoying as it is to have the BB3 not working at the link given, it says a lot that there were more people interested in watching than they had expected. Good sign.

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29. Comment #267602 by Cluebot on October 20, 2008 at 7:59 pm

V.S. Ramachandran's talk was brilliant, as always. He reports a very surprising observation at the end regarding phantom limb patients and mirror neurons.

I've made a torrent of what's already appeared, for those who can't wait. Please seed to relieve my feeble connection:

http://rapidshare.com/files/156008610/Beyond_Belief_3.torrent.html

The files are in Flash Video format. Windows users have a wide choice of tools to view these, including MPC-HC and VLC. Mac and Linux users can use VLC

The withdrawn content is not the complete event. They seemed to be releasing it in batches, which I've been downloading as they appeared.

The first Beyond Belief was on Google Video if I recall correctly. I've no idea why they changed...

Other Comments by Cluebot

30. Comment #267640 by Alberto.Jaume on October 20, 2008 at 10:33 pm

I am Mexican, I am 27 and I was able to watch Cosmos in VHS in the early 90's. I own the Series and I love to see them once and again. I was just 10 or 11 and it opened my eyes to the Universe. Carl Sagan will always be my personal hero. I have also read The Deamon Haunted World, blue plae dot, and other brilliant publications. In Mexico he is well known in some circles, and I love to introduce his books to people.

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31. Comment #267644 by maxamillion on October 20, 2008 at 10:57 pm

#267189

Holy crap, when did Carl Sagan write "The Demon-Haunted World"? Seems rather prophetic, to me, if you'll excuse the religious metaphor.

Checkout Carl's Speech from 1994

http://www.pointofinquiry.org/ann_druyan_science_wonder_and_spirituality/

Carl Sagan's last public address for CSICOP, from its conference in Seattle in 1994, is presented in its entirety. In this keynote, entitled "Wonder and Skepticism", Sagan eloquently conveys prescient insights about the future of science and technology, argues why science is the best way of looking at the world, shares almost prophetic statements about the cultural war against science in America today, passionately calls for tempering skepticism with a humane understanding of why it is so easy in our society to not be skeptical, and encourages the listener to foster such appreciation for this kind of skepticism especially among young people.

The speech starts about 40mins in, the entire podcast is quite interesting. In fact I have a copy of all of the podcasts from POI, they are very interesting.

Other Comments by maxamillion

32. Comment #267699 by JemyM on October 21, 2008 at 2:08 am

If they publish it on google video I will download the whole thing to my PSP.

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33. Comment #267761 by curly on October 21, 2008 at 4:00 am

Loved Sam Harris' contribution on morality. I find it very satisfying to think that there will soon be a scientific definition of 'right and wrong'.
I am reading Marc Hauser's "Moral Minds" at the moment (from Sam's recommended reading list at samharris.org). Hauser suggests that we have an innate moral instinct in much the same way that we have an innate language instinct.

Other Comments by curly

34. Comment #267786 by NewSkeptic on October 21, 2008 at 4:49 am

(From memory) Richard Dawkins' plug on the front cover of Demon-Haunted World reads:

"I wish I had written The Demon Haunted World. ... Please read this book."

Without endorsing the 'hero principle' (for either author), that's a strong endorsement.

For what it's worth, I read The Demon Haunted World, then The God Delusion and found them both to be excellent in their respective styles; Carl's is gentle, languid and eloquent (correct me if I'm wrong, but he was undergoing bone marrow transplants at the time!) while Richard's is logical, rational and unyielding.

Both should be highly recommended and required reading, IMHO (preaching to the choir for TGD, aren't I?!) :-)

Kind Regards, NS

Other Comments by NewSkeptic

35. Comment #267814 by Wosret on October 21, 2008 at 5:48 am

I didn't even know this was here!! I can't believe it has been a year already. Sam Harris talks too!! o(^-^o)(o^-^)o *excited*.

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36. Comment #267873 by JFHalsey on October 21, 2008 at 7:55 am

You two must be joking. It was published in '96 and is a classic that everyone should read.

No, you're right, Carl Sagan is one of my absolute heroes and I want to read his books very much. It's just that, well, I have a very large stack of books to read, and I'm not a very fast reader... ^_^* (Oh, and, I've only been an atheist for 2 years now. I have quite a bit of catching up to do!)

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37. Comment #267908 by JonnyDr on October 21, 2008 at 8:52 am

Sam Harris' talk was truly awesome - easily trumped his rather dull talk on the nomenclature of atheists that he gave last year. I think many faithists assume the new atheists to all be utter moral relativists at heart, and that very fact puts them off before any argument can be had. Although I've always thought that there could be an objective empirical basis to utilitarian/consequentialist ethics, and I'm sure Dawkins, Harris et al. have too, it's nice to see them braving to use it as an argument - I think it'll go down well all round.

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38. Comment #267925 by retrospy on October 21, 2008 at 9:13 am

Beyond Belief 1 & 2 were, without a doubt, some of the most thought provoking encounters I have had. I can't wait to hear the 3rd. Knowing that this session has had overwhelming demand makes it worth the extra wait.

Other Comments by retrospy

39. Comment #267947 by Cluebot on October 21, 2008 at 9:33 am

Thanks to everyone seeding the torrent. :)

I can provide support if anyone is having trouble downloading or playing the files. You can PM me on the forums.

Other Comments by Cluebot

40. Comment #267993 by Obecalp on October 21, 2008 at 10:32 am

Yeah, thanks for seeding - although a bit more wouldn't hurt ;-) (I've got 8kb/s)

By the by, if you're new to torrents, I would like to recommend a client called Azureus which as far as I know is the best one out there.

Check it out at http://azureus.sourceforge.net/

Cheers

PS Sam Harris, too? Goodie!

Other Comments by Obecalp

41. Comment #268020 by mlon on October 21, 2008 at 10:51 am

azareus is nice but not the best..

get utorrent.

mlon

Other Comments by mlon

42. Comment #268052 by Cluebot on October 21, 2008 at 11:14 am

µtorrent is best on Windows, but is not cross-platform. Linux and Mac users should get Azureus.

If you're getting low speeds, make sure your router and/or firewall are set up to accept incoming bittorrent connections.

Other Comments by Cluebot

43. Comment #268106 by HarryS on October 21, 2008 at 12:19 pm

Hello all, long time reader but never commented before. Had to through my tuppence in when the subject of Carl Sagan came up.

I came to Sagan as a teenager and, of course, loved "Cosmos" but my greatest thrill was getting to see him speak in person, when I was about eighteen. He spoke at Glasgow University in 1985 for the Gifford Lectures on the topic of;

"The Varieties of Scientific Experience: A Personal View of the Search for God"

He filled three lecture halls, the other two watching on screens of course (I'd never seen that done before!) and yet, despite the crowds, myself and my two mates got the same three seats, right in front of him in the second row of the main hall on all three nights. I was electrified. I regret never having the courage to ask a question.. hell I couldn't think of a question!

I also remember he was so civil to the religious members of the audience who asked questions, even when his lectures had left them very anxious and upset. One elderly lady started her question with; "I believe that god is love..." He replied that he hoped a divine creator would be at the very least love but would have to be so much more.

His death still saddens me.

Other Comments by HarryS

44. Comment #268213 by adonais on October 21, 2008 at 2:26 pm

Thanks for the torrent, those are great quality vids. I seeded over night to a ratio of 3, but I can't seed from work... :-)

P.S. I am delighted with the Sagan-esque theme of the conference, and to see the comments here. I am re-reading The Demon-Haunted World, which was an eye-opener to me in the 90s, and which by now has already become modern classic. I wish everybody would read it.

Other Comments by adonais

45. Comment #268224 by Daemonion on October 21, 2008 at 2:39 pm

Thanks Cluebot, for the .torrent. =)

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46. Comment #268506 by holyfather on October 21, 2008 at 9:58 pm

thanks so much for the mp3s / torrent!

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47. Comment #268621 by hamal on October 22, 2008 at 3:37 am

@Scandinavian07, thank you very much for the torrent. I'll be seeding for AT LEAST the same amount as I download.

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48. Comment #268874 by reason162 on October 22, 2008 at 11:20 am

Thanks for the torrent, I will d/l it and leave, no seeding here buddy---my instinct for reciprocal altruism be damned! mwahahaha

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49. Comment #268900 by Daemonion on October 22, 2008 at 11:54 am

Watched all the files in the .torrent.

Any clue where to get the rest of it ?

P.S.
Still seeding... =)

Other Comments by Daemonion

50. Comment #268933 by mismos00 on October 22, 2008 at 12:39 pm